More involved in Oklahoma City bombing?

by **seemslikeadream** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:08 pm

<a href="http://msnbc.msn.com/id/12387753/" target="top">msnbc.msn.com/id/12387753/</a> More involved in Oklahoma City bombing? On 11th anniversary, Rita Cosby talks to Terry Nichols' son, Josh Nichols • Oklahoma City bomber's son April 19: Exclusive: Eleven years to the day after the Oklahoma City bombing, the son of co-conspirator Terry Nichols says others may have helped in the attack. Rita_Cosby Today is the 11th anniversary of the Oklahoma City bombing. Josh Nichols, son of Oklahoma City bomber Terry Nichols, sat down with Rita Cosby for an exclusive interview that airs tonight at 9 p.m. ET. The interview took place in a prison where Josh Nichols is awaiting sentencing for a crime unrelated to the bombing. This is a transcript from their conversation. RITA COSBY, HOST, 'LIVE & DIRECT': Do you think you're being overcharged? And that this has happened to you a bit before because you're Terry Nichols' son? NICHOLS: Oh, absolutely. I have this shadow pulling at me and it's been pulling at me for 11 years. I've pulled back and I've done some great things in my life. Been through programs, the programs were great. It is what you make it. If you want to use the program to your advantage, go ahead and make something of yourself. And that's what I chose to do. But we have bad days. Sometimes we have poor judgment. And I made some bad decisions. And I jump back in the streets and I committed some crimes. COSBY: Do you feel you've been punished enough in your life just by being Terry Nichols' son? NICHOLS: You know, I wouldn't really know what punished enough is. The stuff I've been through in my life I wouldn't wish upon nobody. I've been sentenced for 11 years, I've been called John Doe number two, this could be a terrorist, he could be John Doe number two by the FBI. At 12 years old I was labeled as a could-be terrorist. I just go through life called the bombers' son or there's bomber, just pointing fingers at me and calling me names and just unfair treatment. I can't convey to you enough how my life just took a downfall from that point forward. I wish my father was here today. I mean, physically he's not, but mentally he does his job. He keeps in contact with me. He keeps his faith and he's such a great person. To know him is to love him. COSBY: Do you believe in this case that the government wants to keep your dad quiet and maybe is punishing you and others? NICHOLS: Yes. COSBY: Do you believe what your dad is ready to say about the Oklahoma City bombing could hurt the U.S. government? NICHOLS: I believe it could. COSBY: And how so? NICHOLS: Because he knows what happened that day. He knows what happened in Oklahoma City. COSBY: And how many others do you believe are involved? NICHOLS: I couldn't put a number on it, you know? It could be five, it could be 10, it could be more, but there has to be others involved. COSBY: And why do you think that? NICHOLS: Because of how he has tried to reach out to other people and say what he knows, and somehow, some way, they keep the public from knowing the truth. And maybe one aspect of it is charging your son with attempted murder. COSBY: How do you describe your dad? Because some people in the American public call him a monster. NICHOLS: My father is no monster. My father is not a monster. McVeigh is a monster. My father has a heart. My father loves people. COSBY: How often do you communicate with your dad? How do you communicate with your father? Is it phone calls, letters, visits? NICHOLS: He calls my house like once a month, once every other month. His calls are very limited. I haven't spoke with him for a very long time because of my incarceration, but his belief, he believes in the Lord so much and when I think about the Lord I think about my father. When I think about God I think about Terry. COSBY: Your father is Christian. NICHOLS: Yes he is. COSBY: You believe faith has helped him? NICHOLS: Oh. God has given him the most amazing strength. I've seen such a change in that individual. I've seen such a change in my father in the past 11 years. To be in the position he is in, he's in solitary confinement, also, he doesn't have contact with nobody whatsoever. They bring the shower to him. He's cut off from the world. One phone call a month and all he has is his Bible, and that's gotten him through. COSBY: Do you believe that someone in the government had prior knowledge about the bombing or covered it up? NICHOLS: I do believe it. I mean, how could something that huge happen and just two people know about it? It doesn't make sense. COSBY: How high up do you believe it goes? NICHOLS: I really don't know who is involved, what individuals or what positions they have in their department but it's obvious to me, it's very obvious to me that he's fearing for his life for some reason. COSBY: And when you say department, do you believe the FBI? NICHOLS: ATF, FBI, some government agency investigation, agency, CIA, some department investigates this kind of stuff. COSBY: Your Dad has said that he believes that there's some government cover up here. NICHOLS: I don't know what he knows but it is also obvious to me that what he knows is something that's very powerful and he doesn't want to go out and exploit it when the time isn't right. When there's a lot more at stake than just telling a story. COSBY: Do you think your dad is ready to tell the truth now about the Oklahoma City bombing? NICHOLS: I know he is. COSBY: Do you believe your dad's faith is also persuading him to speak? NICHOLS: I do. I really do because of the fact that having faith in God and Jesus; you learn to wash your sins, you learn to open up and confess to the things you've done wrong and because of the involvement that God has had in his life in the past 10 years, it's opened up a whole other room, it's opened up a whole other ballgame. In other words, I believe it prepares him to say what he needs to say. COSBY: Do you think the American public is ready to hear the truth and accept it whatever it is? NICHOLS: I think the American public can accept it, but I don't believe the government can. COSBY: What kind of a man was Timothy McVeigh? You knew him. NICHOLS: In fact, he was an extremist. He really didn't care too much for children. He used to drive like a maniac. The times I did see him, he was real moody, real isolated. And that's the picture that I got of McVeigh. That's how he carried himself. He was independent and I guess he stuck to what he believed. COSBY: When you say he didn't like kids, how so? I mean, he wrote in a letter to me many years ago, the kids in the daycare center were collateral damage. Were you surprised to hear that? NICHOLS: He just has no heart. I've never seen a good feeling from him. I've just seen negativity; negativity from McVeigh. COSBY: Did you have any idea that Timothy McVeigh and your father were planning this? NICHOLS: No I didn't. COSBY: None at all. NICHOLS: None at all. COSBY: Nothing suspicious? NICHOLS: No. COSBY: Nothing unusual? NICHOLS: No. COSBY: You're in seventh grade at the time and they pull you in and say "Did you play a role in this horrible crime"? NICHOLS: You know, it was kind of strange to me. I was going through my sixth hour class and all of the sudden, the dean, the principal, the hall monitors, they surrounded me and said, Mr. Nichols, you ought to come with us. I thought I was in trouble for goofing off in school. And they pulled me in the dean's office, locked me in a room, by myself, and said your mom's boyfriend is coming to get you. I tried to open the door, the door was locked, and I'm like, what's going on? They're like just, calm down, your mom's boyfriend will be here in a few minutes. My mother's boyfriend arrives and we hop in the vehicle and I say, what's going on, what's going on? He said, Josh, there is somebody following us and I say, well, so? As a kid I'm like, who's following us? He's like, the FBI. And he let me know why they were there, what happened the day before, a couple days before. I'm like, OK, so, you know? What's the bombing got to do with me and why is the FBI following us? So we get to my house and there's five or six white government vehicles. There's eight to 10 government FBI agents in my house, all in their suits, business attire and my mom is just crying and crying and crying and I don't know what's going on. I'm still kind of new to the fact what the news was. The news was a building was blown up in Oklahoma City. As a child you don't watch the news. As a child you go out riding bikes, you play with your friends. You're not aware of what happens in the real world. And my mom was just crying and crying and crying and I swore it was a mistake. Your father has been arrested for what happened in Oklahoma City and I'm like, yeah right, you know? Because reality, it doesn't set in on a child as it does an adult. COSBY: Has he told your mom that that there were several others involved? It's my understanding is that there were a number of people involved, beyond your Dad and Timothy McVeigh. NICHOLS: He has related that to my mother. I haven't personally had a conversation with him about other people's involvement and stuff like that, but my mother's conversation with him would be in more depth and more in tune with what he is trying to do with the story, with what he is trying to convey to America. NICHOLS: There's more people involved. More than just McVeigh and him. COSBY: Do you believe that there are several others involved beyond your father and Timothy McVeigh? NICHOLS: I do believe, I do believe. I don't know the number, but I believe there was more involvement somewhere else. They should be looking somewhere else also. COSBY: Do you believe your dad is worried for his safety and that of his family? NICHOLS: I know he is. I know he is. There's been threats on me. There's been threats on my mom. Every day there's threats in prison against his life. COSBY: What would you want to say to Congress who oversees these federal agencies that you believe may have played a role? If they're watching, what would you want to say to them? Because those are the folks that could reach out to your dad, who could give an independent investigation. NICHOLS: Take a risk. Every individual if they're labeled a criminal or a terrorist or a bad influence, those people change, don't give up hope on them. Believe in them. People do change and just do the right thing. Respect the truth. COSBY: Do you believe there was any foreign involvement in the bombing? NICHOLS: I don't believe so. COSBY: No Al Qaeda, no Arab tie? NICHOLS: No, I don't believe so. COSBY: Any tie in with your dad's trips to the Philippines? NICHOLS: To my knowledge, no, there wasn't. There could have been but as a child I was not aware of it. COSBY: Do you believe the others were either belonging to the government or extremists in America? NICHOLS: Extremists. Extremists can be connected with certain people, certain individuals and certain groups take things to different levels and they believe in different laws and they abide by different things and the people that McVeigh was around with obviously had the same beliefs and nature he did. COSBY: Do you think your dad knows who John Doe number two is? NICHOLS: I do. I never said that. I do believe he knows who it is. I believe he does know. I believe since this came out and he let America know and people are aware of his involvement now, he has to know. He has to know who was involved in the things he was involved in. COSBY: Do you think he's ready to say everything? NICHOLS: Yes. COSBY: How so? NICHOLS: Well, I don't believe he would get - it wouldn't benefit him, as I was saying earlier. It wouldn't get him a lighter sentence, it wouldn't get him a contact visit with a special person. There would be nothing beneficial. Actually, it would make circumstances worse for him by relating what he knows. COSBY: On April 19, 1995, you were 12 years old. What do you remember from that day? NICHOLS: What I remember from the 19th of April, 1995 is just the state of shock. Just sorrows, sadness. Things really weren't what I wanted them to be. I wouldn't - COSBY: Were you at home? I've heard that you were at home with your parents. Were you with your Dad at the time? NICHOLS: I was on Easter vacation with my father. COSBY: When, on April 19th? NICHOLS: No, just before that. Easter vacation was, I believe, like the 12th through the 16th. COSBY: OK. Where were you? Were you with him on the 19th? NICHOLS: No, I wasn't. I was in Vegas. I recall on Easter Sunday we were eating Easter brunch, having a little family dinner. COSBY: A few days before the bombing. NICHOLS: A few days before the bombing, on Sunday. And the telephone rang. My dad got up and answered it and it's McVeigh on the phone. McVeigh is screaming at him, just constantly screamed at him. I heard the conversation over the table and my dad hung up the phone and he just got up and said, I have to go. He got up from Easter dinner and hopped in his pickup and took off. COSBY: Was that the last time you saw him before... NICHOLS: No, he came back from wherever he went the following morning but the impression I got from McVeigh was he was threatening him over the phone, by him screaming. COSBY: What do you think McVeigh was saying to him over the phone days before the bombing? NICHOLS: To come across to somebody and to make somebody move like my dad moved, he got up and left just like that. COSBY: And what do you think he said to McVeigh on the phone? NICHOLS: I believe that's when he brought to my dad's attention what could happen if he didn't do what he said. COSBY: Do you believe the bombing victims now need to hear the truth about who else may have been involved? NICHOLS: They deserve the truth. They deserve to hear what happened, what led up to that type of action. It's my belief that the truth, who it may hurt, it needs to be out there. It needs to be talked about. COSBY: Do you believe the bombing victims especially deserve to know if there are others involved? NICHOLS: Of course. There shouldn't be no one holding anything back. I wish the circumstances were a little different so my father could say what he has to say but they're not. COSBY: Do you believe he will though? NICHOLS: I do. I really do. COSBY: You actually went to the Oklahoma City bombing memorial. NICHOLS: I did. COSBY: People would say why? How was that for you? NICHOLS: Victim to victim. I share a part of their loss too. Because victims deserve to be honored and respected, especially in the horrific act that happened. On that day so many lives were taken. They deserve that memorial. They deserve to be honored and people to know that what happened was wrong and that they're not forgotten. COSBY: Is your Dad planning on writing the judge and asking for leniency? NICHOLS: He is. And I'm fortunate to have my father do that for me because of the fact that I was so over in left field because of what happened to me and the circumstances of the bombing and the effect that it had on me in my life that my father still believes in me, my father still loves me. COSBY: Do you think your dad writing the judge will have an impact? And what do you think he'll say in the letter? NICHOLS: I hope it does, I hope it does because his spiritual belief and his understanding of the kind of man I am. COSBY: Do you think he'll also say, look, it's my fault what happened to my son? NICHOLS: I believe he will. I really do. For him to make a stand like that it would be very credible and respectable. NICHOLS: I believe the truth is important so they can have peace and understanding. They need to know what happened, the events that led up to the bombing, they need to know who was involved and they need to be brought to justice. COSBY: What would you say to Congress tonight? NICHOLS: If you could just take a risk and provide my father with some safety. If Congress could do anything to help my father feel a little bit safer, to provide some comfort, hopefully enough comfort to have my father speak and let the truth be known. COSBY: Do you think it would help you if you knew every detail and knew all the people involved in Oklahoma City. Do you think that would give you some comfort? NICHOLS: Some type of closure, yes. Some type of closure, it would. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=seemslikeadream@rigorousintuition>seemslikeadream</A> at: 4/20/06 6:29 pm

by **sunny** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:18 pm

COSBY: You believe faith has helped him? COSBY: And when you say department, do you believe the FBI? ____________________________________________________ Is there a gap in the transcript there?

by **seemslikeadream** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:30 pm

I fixed it.

by **sunny** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:34 pm

Thanks Slad. BTW, what do you think of this?: <a href="http://www.constitution.org/ocbpt/ocbpt.htm">www.constitution.org/ocbpt/ocbpt.htm</a>

by **seemslikeadream** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:43 pm

<img src="http://www.rmcgcreative.com/artware/we-compare-padilla.gif" style="border:0;"/> Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=seemslikeadream@rigorousintuition>seemslikeadream</A> at: 4/20/06 6:44 pm

by **sunny** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:49 pm

Your welcome. My, my but that is a suspiciously dead on likeness of John Doe #2. Could it be true that Padilla is actually being held as "The Man Who Knew Too Much?"

by **Hugh Manatee Wins** » Fri Apr 21, 2006 4:26 am

Bomb experts agree that no truck full of fertilizer caused the damage in OK. It was planted charges. Sound familar? Yup. A rehearsal for 9/11. <a href="http://www.constitution.org/ocbpt/ocbpt_01.htm">www.constitution.org/ocbpt/ocbpt_01.htm</a> <blockquote>Quote:<hr>1 The Mannlicher-Carcanno Bomb "It had to have been mined," said the gruff, gnarly voice on the other end of the line. "It's real simple. You cannot bring down a building like that without cutting charges set on the support pillars." Bud, an ex-Green Beret who saw heavy combat in Vietnam, should know what he's talking about. Bud had military demolitions training — the kind taught to men who need to know how to blow up hardened targets. "It couldn't have been done externally like that," added Bud. "Without cutting charges, there's just no way to do it." Bud didn't want me to use his full name. He was worried about his VA benefits. One man who wasn't worried about government reprisals was General Benton K. Partin. A retired U.S. Air Force Brigadier General, Partin had responsibility for the design and testing of almost every non-nuclear weapon device used in the Air Force, including precision-guided weapons designed to destroy hardened targets like the Alfred P. Murrah Building. Partin has exhaustively researched the bombing and the resulting pattern of damage. In a letter dated May 17, 1995, hand-delivered to each member of the Congress and Senate, Partin stated: When I first saw the pictures of the truck-bomb's asymmetrical damage to the Federal Building, my immediate reaction was that the pattern of damage would have been technically impossible without supplementing demolition charges at some of the reinforcing concrete column bases…. For a simplistic blast truck-bomb, of the size and composition reported, to be able to reach out on the order of 60 feet and collapse a reinforced column base the size of column A-7 is beyond credulity. The full text of Partin's report, reproduced in the appendix, is too complex to elaborate on here, says a truck filled with ammonium nitrate could not have caused the degree of damage done to the Alfred P. Murrah building. Not when it was parked at least 20 feet away from that building. Without direct contact, the fall-off from the blast would be too great to do any serious structural damage.[5] Another man who knows a thing or two about bombs is Samuel Cohen, inventor of the Neutron Bomb. Cohen began his career on the Manhattan Project at Los Alamos, where he was charged with studying the effects of the atomic bombs that destroyed Hiroshima and Nagasaki. During his 40 year career, Cohen worked with every application of nuclear weapons design and testing. Cohen stated his position in a letter to Oklahoma State Representative Charles Key: It would have been absolutely impossible and against the laws of nature for a truck full of fertilizer and fuel oil… no matter how much was used… to bring the building down.[6] Interestingly, the Ryder truck-bomb has earned the nickname the "Mannlicher-Carcanno Bomb" after the cheap Italian-made rifle with a defective scope that was allegedly used to kill President Kennedy. District Attorney Jim Garrison joked during the Shaw conspiracy trial that the government's nuclear physics lab could explain how a single bullet could travel through President Kennedy and Governor Connally five times while making several u-turns, then land in pristine condition on the President's gurney. In the Oklahoma bombing case, it appears the government is attempting to perform a similar feat of light and magic. The fact that a non-directional, low-velocity fertilizer bomb parked 20 to 30 feet from a modern, steel-reinforced super-structure could not have caused the pattern and degree of damage it did is not being widely touted by the government or the mainstream press. The government expects the public to believe that two disgruntled amateurs blew up the Oklahoma City Federal Building with a homemade fertilizer bomb. Dr. Roger Raubach doesn't believe the government. Raubach, who did his Ph.D. in physical chemistry and served on the research faculty at Stanford University, says, "General Partin's assessment is absolutely correct. I don't care if they pulled up a semi-trailer truck with 20 tons of ammonium nitrate; it wouldn't do the damage we saw there." Raubach, who is the technical director of a chemical company, explained in an interview with The New American magazine: "The detonation velocity of the shock wave from an ANFO (ammonium nitrate/fuel-oil) explosion is on the order of 3,500 meters per second. In comparison, military explosives generally have detonation velocities that hit 7,000 to 8,000-plus meters per second. The most energetic single-component explosive of this type, C-4 — which is also known as Cyclonite or RDX — is about 8,000 meters per second and above. You don't start doing big-time damage to heavy structures until you get into those ranges, which is why the military uses those explosives."[7] The government is not happy about people like Dr. Roger Raubach. They don't want you to know what Dr. Raubach knows. Sam Gronning, a licensed, professional blaster in Casper, Wyoming with 30 years experience in explosives, told The New American: "The Partin letter states in very precise technical terms what everyone in this business knows: No truck-bomb of ANFO out in the open is going to cause the kind of damage we had there in Oklahoma City. In 30 years of blasting, using everything from 100 percent nitrogel to ANFO, I've not seen anything to support that story."[8] In an interview with the author, Gronning said, "I set off a 5,000 lb ANFO charge. I was standing 1,000 feet from it, and all it did was muss my hair, take out the mud in the creek that we were trying to get rid of, and it shattered a few leaves off the trees around it. It didn't cause any collateral damage to any of the deeply set trees that were within 20 feet of it." The FBI has a different story to tell. The FBI claims that Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols bought several thousand pounds of ammonium nitrate at a farm supply store in Manhattan, Kansas, then drove to Geary State Park where they mixed a bomb. The FBI claims that the suspects then hauled their magic bomb a distance of over 500 miles, where, nearly 24 hours later, they blew up the Federal Building in Oklahoma City. Yet what the FBI — those bastions of truth and justice — don't want you to know, is that fertilizer-grade ammonium nitrate isn't a very good blasting agent. As a publication from the Atlas Powder company states: …agricultural fertilizer prills when made into ANFO had very poor explosive characteristics. They would not detonate efficiently because of their high density, lack of porosity and heavy inert coatings of anti-setting agents.… The ability of an oiled prill to be detonated depends greatly upon the density of the prill. Dense prills, such as agricultural grade, often are not detonable at all; or if initiated, perform at a very low rate of detonation and may die out in the bore hole performing no useful work.[9] U.S. Army Technical Manual TM 9-1910 states it thusly: The grade of ammonium nitrate used in the manufacture of binary explosives is required to be at least 99 percent pure, contain not more than 1.15 percent of moisture, and have maximum ether-soluble, water-insoluble acidity, sulfate, and chloride contents of 0.10, 0.18, 0.02, 0.05, and 0.50 percent, respectively. Moreover, a bomb like that is not easy to mix. According to Gronning, "You'd have to stir and stir and stir to get just the right mixture for proper combustibility. And then, if it isn't used immediately, the oil settles to the bottom and the bomb doesn't go off." "ANFO is easy to make if you know how to do it," adds Jeffrey Dean, Executive Director of the International Society of Explosives Engineers, "but it takes years of experience to work with safely." According to Dean, "It is almost impossible for amateurs to properly mix the ammonium nitrate with the fuel oil. Clumps of ANFO would inevitably fail to detonate."[10]<hr></blockquote>

by **StarmanSkye** » Fri Apr 21, 2006 6:46 am

More info. on what was undoubtedly the gummint covering-up its involvement in a false-flag terrorist bombing: Evidence for additional bombs, and eyewitness reports of a helicopter seen hovering above the Murrah Bldg. just before, during, and afer the explosion(s) -- and which the FBI showed absolutely NO interest in pursuing. It's hard to avoid suspician that failure by officials to investigate and publicly disclose the TRUTH of what happened that day and which government officials and agencies were involved directly extended from the false-flag terrorism of the '93 WTC bombing, and directly contributed to the 911 false-flag ops. Starman *** <a href="http://100777.com/node/106">100777.com/node/106</a> --quote-- David Hoffman, author of "The Oklahoma City Bombing and the Politics of Terror" (Published by Feral House) wrote the following (taken from a chapter in that book): Yet Rick Sherrow, who wrote an article for Soldier of Fortune magazine entitled "Bomb Blasts & Baloney," contends that the General's assessment of the bombing is somehow inaccurate. Sherrow claims that the pressure wave that would have struck the building from the [rapidly deteriorating] blast of the ANFO bomb (375 p. s. i. according to Partin's figures) would be more than enough to destroy reinforced concrete columns, which Sherrow claimed in his article disintegrate at 30 p. s. i. (pounds per square inch). Sam Gronning doesn't concur. "That's bullshit!!" exclaimed Gronning. "Thirty p. s. i. wouldn't take out a rubber tire!" Citizens monitoring police radios heard the following conversation on the morning of the 19th: First voice: "Boy, you're not gonna' believe this!" Second voice: "Believe what?" First voice: "I can't believe it; this is a military bomb!" When J. D. Cash, a journalist writing for the McCurtain County Gazette,, tried to interview members of the Bomb Squad, Fire Department and Police, he was generally told by potential interviewees, "I saw a lot that day, I wish I hadn't. I have a wife, a job, a family, I've been threatened, we've been told not to talk about the devices." The most amount of force produced by even a perfectly made ANFO bomb weighing 4800 pounds, is 1,457 p. s. i. by the time it hit the glass of the Federal building. It's a law of physics that the destructive capabilities of a bomb fall off dramatically only a few feet from the blast. By the time the blast front made contact with the column nearest to the bomb, the pressure would have decreased to 375 p. s. i., far below the 5,600 p. s. i. compressive yield strength of concrete. Even using General Partin's very conservative figure of 3,500 p. s. i. for the compressive yield strength of concrete, you would still require nine times the potential damage pressure from the bomb at that distance. Furthermore, the government would have us believe that the same bomb was able to blast through an additional seven major concrete columns. If we are to believe the absolute absurdity of the governments "science", then we should also endorse the practices of voodoo and witchcraft, for they both have the same amount of credibility. Simply stated, it is a physical, chemical and thermodynamic impossibility for a 4800 pound ANFO bomb, at a distance of approximately 20 feet away, to of inflicted the kind of damage the government said it did. As reported widely on CNN & news stations across the nation on the day of the bombing, up to four primed bombs were found inside the building by bomb detecting dogs. The BATF (Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms) later said they were dummy bombs, but why would bomb sniffing dogs find, or be needed to locate dummy bombs which are clearly marked as such; furthermore, why would munitions technicians spend so much time diffusing "dummy" bombs? KFOR-TV said that another bomb had been located strapped to a column next to the day-care center. Around the noon hour, Channel 4 had as their guest Dr. Randall Heather, a terrorist expert. Dr. Heather stated: "We got lucky today, if you can consider anything about this tragedy lucky. We have both of the bombs that were defused at the site and they are being taken apart. We will be able to find out how they were made, and possibly who made them. These bombs are very sophisticated high explosives with maybe a little fertilizer damped around them." (snip) * Helicopter Above Murrah at the Moment of the OKC Bombing Patrick Briley August 2, 2005 <a href="http://www.newswithviews.com/Briley/Patrick13.htm">www.newswithviews.com/Bri...rick13.htm</a> <a href="http://100777.com/node/1369">100777.com/node/1369</a> (mirror) On the morning of April 19 1995 a helicopter hovered near and then over the Murrah building before and after it was bombed at 9:02 am. Several very reliable witnesses told me they saw this helicopter above the Murrah building. At a time when the public was being asked in OKC to call the FBI with leads about the bombing, I called the FBI offices in OKC on April 21, 1995 and asked to speak with an FBI agent to tell him about the helicopter and the witnesses. FBI agent Dan Vogel took my call and I fully identified myself to him with my name. I spoke about one sentence to agent Vogel about the helicopter witnesses when Vogel ended the call by telling me that the FBI would NOT be pursuing the helicopter information and by abruptly hanging up the telephone. The one sentence I did tell Vogel was that I knew of several reliable witnesses who had seen a helicopter near and above the Murrah building before and after the Murrah bombing. I was not given the opportunity by Vogel to describe the helicopter or tell him who the witnesses were by name before he abruptly hung up on me. And if I had been given the chance I would have suggested to Vogel that the FBI track down who was flying the helicopter to find out what they saw and who they were. But Vogel and the FBI clearly did NOT want to know or investigate. And neither Vogel nor anyone else from the FBI ever called me back about the story. The FBI knew how to reach me and Vogel knew who I was. Vogel knew who I was not only because I gave him my name but also because his wife Dee Vogel had worked with my wife for over ten years and my wife had taught his son Adam Vogel at Deer Creek High School near OKC. FBI agent Dan Vogel did not even want this information from me on April 21, 1995 and he NEVER called me back. Believe me, he knows me. I him gave my name when I called and I explained to him then that my wife worked with his wife for over 10 years and also taught his son in high school. My helicopter witnesses included a 32-year veteran of Air Force intelligence and a lady with a commanding view in a corporate skyscraper, the Kerr McGee building in downtown OKC. Another helicopter witness was OKC resident Debbie Burdick who went to the FBI on the morning of the OKC bombing and told them of seeing McVeigh and John Does in McVeigh’s yellow Mercury, a brown Chevy truck and a blue Cavalier parked in line north of the Murrah building. Burdick said the men were looking up at a helicopter over the Murrah building just moments before the Murrah building was bombed. Debbie Burdick was also threatened by FBI agent Odom from Denver twice, during and after the federal bombing trials, not to go to the press or to attorneys with her story. Burdick was asked by Odom to the effect, “You do not want to harm America by revealing your story, do you? But as a result of Burdick’s information three Middle Eastern men, Anis and Asad Siddiqy and Mohammed Chafti in the blue cavalier also associated with the 1993 WTC bombing were arrested on the day of the OKC bombing and then later released by direct intervention of the FBI. KFORTV reporter Brad Edwards told me in 1995 that he had a military veteran friend who served in Viet Nam that also observed the helicopter near and above the Murrah building. OKCPD K-9 unit officer Don Browning investigated the helicopter story and has said that the FAA in OKC also knew of the helicopter’s presence. Browning has also said he believes from his investigation that the helicopter was used to track the bombing operation as it unfolded. Former OK Governor Frank Keating did a taped interview with FOX news reporter Rita Cosby in 1995 in which Keating acknowledged but ridiculed and downplayed the helicopter story. This taped interview was played on Fox in other states but was blacked out in OKC. I have a copy of the interview. General Benton Partin has said he viewed a photo taken from a helicopter above the Murrah building at the time of and just within seconds of the Murrah bombing. General Partin has also said the photo was shown to Partin by John Culbertson. An OKC bombing victim family member had videotape showing a helicopter above the Murrah building at the time of the bombing. An OK sheriff filmed the videotape. The victim family member loaned the tape to John Culbertson who has never returned the tape. The family member also has said that they are unable to obtain another copy ot the videotape from the OK sheriff. John Culbertson who took the family member tape is the same man who provided a photo Partin says was taken of the Murrah explosion from a helicopter. John Culbertson worked directly for former Congressman James Traficant for several years while Culbertson was collecting evidence from OKC bombing victims, investigators and witnesses that Culbertson has never returned. Some may say that there are helicopters flying over major cities every day of the week and that this could explain the helicopter sighting on the morning of April 19, 1995. But only one in a hundred trillion helicopters with a specific purpose in mind would ever hover above a building as it is blown up and then still hang around to take pictures like what happened on April 19, 1995 at the Murrah building in OKC. There was only ONE helicopter at the scene in OKC that morning doing this, not several that would have just been inadvertently flying nearby on a normal day and that would have fled the scene because of the force of the blast. And why did the FBI refuse to investigate all the witness claims of the helicopter to learn something that might have been of value in the investigation of the OKC bombing? Many witnesses went to the FBI with these claims and were brusquely rebuffed and ignored by the FBI and the Oklahoma governor Frank Keating. This helicopter story is another example among numerous other examples pointing to the intentional mishandling and cover up of OKC bombing investigation by the federal officials.

by **Hugh Manatee Wins** » Fri Apr 21, 2006 3:07 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>When J. D. Cash, a journalist writing for the McCurtain County Gazette,, tried to interview members of the Bomb Squad, Fire Department and Police, he was generally told by potential interviewees, "I saw a lot that day, I wish I hadn't. I have a wife, a job, a family, I've been threatened, we've been told not to talk about the devices."<hr></blockquote> Marketing. Start an idea with a foot in the door event. Amplify later. Firefighters are a close-knit bunch and that makes it easy for an idea to get around 'in the family.' I still have friends and family who can't see 9/11 as MIHOP. Those of us who get it become jaded to our own knowledge. That is part of the marketing process, too.

by **Qutb** » Fri Apr 21, 2006 3:27 pm

Thanks for posting, seems. This could get interesting, if he's allowed to talk.

by **StarmanSkye** » Fri Apr 21, 2006 4:21 pm

Hugh said: --quote-- Marketing. Start an idea with a foot in the door event. Amplify later. Firefighters are a close-knit bunch and that makes it easy for an idea to get around 'in the family.' --unquote-- Not sure what you mean here, Hugh. Are you suggesting the 'don't talk about stuff as you don't have the bigger picture' intimidation/threat meme by-implication gets spread through this kind of made-up 'anonymous' story-confession, so that no-one is actually 'told-off' but everyone still gets the message? I can see how this would work, if so. Whenever I see this kind of subtle intimidation I'm reminded of the notorious 'Gap jeans' controversy over supposed claims that Ladder Company 4 in NYC was looting jeans even before the WTC South Tower collapsed -- an outrageous slander that was totally bogus and unsupportable (the crew were trying to free some 7 passengers trapped in a crashed lobby-elevator at the time) -- but the effect at the time (along with sniping side-shots made by Guliani et al.) was to divide the police/rescue and firemen community) and cast aspersions at the entire Firemen community, criticizing them collectively and impugning their reputation and credibility; This PR stunt poisoned whatever critical and damaging statements the firemen might have made about the many failures, mistakes, errors, poor decisions, design flaws, building code violations, improper/lack of equipment, poor evacuation planning, and sundry malfeasance/failure of leadership that greatly contributed to the huge loss of life on 911, as well as testimony that contradicted the simplistic 'hijackers did it because they hate our freedom' and 'the buildings failed because the damage was too extensive' official explanations. Recall the firechiefs had NO inclination the buildings might collapse. Later, the official 'finding' was that it was a tribute to their design that they stood as long as they did -- while the REAL story was that it would have been virtually impossible for a conventional-built skyscraper to have failed under identical damage. (Quite apart from whether CD was employed -- I don't think they were necessary). But it sure makes me wonder -- what do the groups of firemen and police who either KNOW or strongly suspect there's MUCH about the three biggest so-called terrorist attacks as well as suspicious airflight 'accidents' or bombings (Flight 800 and Lockerbie) that the public is being misled about REALLY think is going on? It's likely most NY civil servants (fire, police, rescue), as well as the salvage/construction industry crews (at least regionally) know from word-of-mouth that 3 of the 4 black boxes of the WTC-attack Boeings were found. Likewise, through word-of-mouth the suspicious evidence of additional bombs at OKC and the sheer impossibility of an ANCO truck-bomb to cause the observed damage must be one of the biggest open-secrets among the professional Law Enforcement community. How can these people just suck-it-up and act like there's nothing going on? As opposed to, I dunno -- quitting in protest (yeah, right -- cutting off their nose to spite their blah-blah-nose?) Striking? I guess the real deal here is the climate of fear and stealth-intimidation that effectively silences members of the police/fire/rescue services who likely DO know better, but aren't willing to jeapordize their career by speaking-out. Unfortunately, that's the current standard of moral 'courage' among the biggest, most-vocal community of flag-wavers. It's an indication that maybe we don't DESERVE freedom -- we'd rather pretend there's no cause to protest the totalitarian repressions and abuses, since it would actually require some sacrifice and effort and discomfort. (Like soldiers who unquestionably obey illegal orders). Starman

by **seemslikeadream** » Fri Apr 21, 2006 4:49 pm

Good to see my favorite people here Qutb Hugh Manatee Wins sunny StarmanSkye Obediah Obediah, Jah Jah sent us here to catch vampire… Obediah Obediah, Jah Jah sent us here to catch vampire… We have the chalice to light up Jah fire! When i and i catch them vampire i and i have to set them on fire

by **Hugh Manatee Wins** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 2:19 am

Yah, SLaD, love that image. Catch'em vampire, rock steady... Jeff did an article about OKC and the first WTC bombing as either government ops gone wrong or, more likely, gone right. The thing about Jeff's 2004 article is that it is incomplete as it still focuses on McVeigh and company without including the military bomb expert's certainty that the truck bomb didn't destroy the building, military cutter charges did. So McVeigh, and possibly Jose Padilla and others, were still patsies. <a href="http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2004/12/government-op-that-went-wrong.html">rigorousintuition.blogspo...wrong.html</a> <blockquote>Quote:<hr>If his suspicion about the informant's identity is correct, "then not only does it appear that FBI defendants knew about and fail[ed] to prevent the attack upon the Murrah Building, but FBI defendants may also have been responsible for training McVeigh and the others who planned and carried out the attack," Trentadue says in a document filed Monday at U.S. District Court in Salt Lake City. Strassmeir arrived in the US in the late 1980s, and claims he expected to work on special assignment for the operations section of the DEA. For "some reason," that didn't pan out, and he soon hooked up with militias and the Klan, becoming chief of security for the compound "Elohim City." Like Mohammed Atta, "Andy the German" led something of a charmed existence in the US, though there were numerous reasons for his deportation. It was as though he had guardian angels watching over him. And it wasn't that he was under the radar of authorities. According to Ron Ostrow of The Los Angeles Times, while on a trip to Germany in 1993 Louis Freeh, then FBI chief, was warned by the BND that Strassmeir was engagaged in neo-Nazi activities in the US. Freeh said that the Agency was aware, was "monitoring" his activities, but that "because of our First Amendment, there isn't anything we can do." As Stephen Jones details in Others Unknown, according to the files of Immigration and Naturalization Service Strassmeir, "who was technically an illegal alien for having overstayed the last of three visas issued to him by the State Department, had been, in the period before the bombing, the subject of a 'sensitive' investigation by ATF." But it was only nine months after the Oklahoma City bombing, after he had left the country, that the INS issued an alert on Strassmeir, noting he was wanted for questioning. Jones continues: Was Strassmeir an agent provocateur? If not, was he on the payroll of one or another federal agency? There were rumours galore, before and after the bombing, and he would certainly appear to have led a charmed and protected life, vis-a-vis American law enforcement. Strassmeir himself would deny vehemently that he'd been on anybody's payroll, at the same time making coy-sounding observations about how easy it was to "penetrate" the American right wing once you learned to speak the language. Here's Strassmeir being coy, from an interview in 1996: It's obvious that it was a government "op" that went wrong, isn't it? The ATF had something going with McVeigh. They were watching him, of course they were. What they should have done is make an arrest while the bomb was still being made instead of waiting till the last moment for a publicity stunt. They had everything they needed to make the bust, and they screwed it up. Whoever thought this thing up is an idiot, in my opinion. I am told they thought it would be better to put a bigger bomb in there. The bigger the better. It would make them more guilty....McVeigh knew he was delivering a bomb, but he had no idea what was in that truck. He just wanted to shake things up a little; you know, make a gesture. The bomb was never meant to explode. They were going to arrest McVeigh at the site with the bomb in hand, but he didn't come at the right time... Maybe he changed the time, you never know with people who are so unreliable. I have heard that the truck was expected in the middle of the night, between two and three in the morning. The truck had a transmitter, so they could track it with a radio receiving device. I don't know how they could have lost contact. I think there was misinformation that the operation had been canceled. If it's not a government op going wrong, chances are it's a government op going right. How many significant "acts of terrorism" have been conducted without, at least, an informer on the inside? The first bombing of the World Trade Center? Informer Emad Salem was in the inner circle of the bomb makers. He warned the FBI of the plot, and wanted to substitute harmless powder for the explosives, but was dissuaded by his agent. This was reported October 28, 1993 on the front page of The New York Times, which said the taped revelation "portrays the authorities as being in a far better position than previously known to foil the February 26th bombing of New York City's tallest towers." The Madrid City bombing? Rafa Zouhier and Emilio Suárez Trashorras, the two who supplied the explosives, were police informers. What's more, Trashorras "was in possession of the private telephone number of the head of Spain’s Civil Guard bomb squad," as reported in The Times of London. "The revelation has raised fresh concerns in Madrid about links between those held responsible for the March bombings, which killed 190 people, and Spain’s security services." Gee - who'da thunk? The 1999 spree of apartment building bombings in Russia; the Mindanao bombing campaign - it just goes on and on. As much as Operation Northwoods serves as a lodestone for 9/11 researchers, we have much more than a rejected proposal of the Joint Chiefs to demonstrate the lengths to which one's government will go. False flag terror, and "letting things happen on purpose," are virtually standard operating procedures.<hr></blockquote>

by **sunny** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 10:07 am

During an interview on Prime Time Live, Lana Padilla, Terry Nichols ex-wife, told Diane Sawyer, "It's not the same person. I mean, you know…" Sawyer: "The stony face." Padilla: "No." [137] ____________________________________________________ <a href="http://www.constitution.org/ocbpt/ocbpt_02.htm">www.constitution.org/ocbpt/ocbpt_02.htm</a>

by **Hugh Manatee Wins** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 10:44 am

Damn! This is getting really interesting. I half expect Lucien Conein to enter the picture.

More involved in Oklahoma City bombing?

More involved in Oklahoma City bombing?

Re: More involved in Oklahoma City bombing?

Re:Thanks sunny

Re: Re:Thanks sunny

Re:I'm reading it now, thanks!

Re: Re:I'm reading it now, thanks!

Re:The Mannlicher Carcanno Bomb

Re: Re:The Mannlicher Carcanno Bomb

Re: Firemen with families

Re: Firemen with families

Re: Firemen with families

Re: Thanks everyone, we're gonna catch 'em vampire

Re: Thanks everyone, we're gonna catch 'em vampire

hmmm, wonder if there is any relation

Re: hmmm, wonder if there is any relation

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