Does anyone else see that it is time to get out (of the US?)

[bvonahsen]

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I think we are past the point of no return. I have contacted an immigration lawyer and hopefully have set the wheels in motion before it is too late, but who knows? People are telling me that it is fear that is motivating me, but fear can be good, too. A child fears the fire after being burned badly, and that is a good thing.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>If I wasn't dirt poor I'd have left already. Vancouver sounds good, so does Spain. A artist friend of mine moved to Spain years ago. Seems to have been a smart move on his part. Spain is experiencing good economic growth, they have a government with a brain, and they value art more than americans do. (that goes for most Europeans anyway) He's probably doing very well there.<br><br>Moving north seems good due to climate change, I live in Minnesota and I miss our winters here. They just aren't the same any more.<br><br> <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :( --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/frown.gif ALT=":("><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <p></p><i></i>

[StarmanSkye]

Ted: Gotcha; I misread your question, didn't get the angle, "What's so special about NOW, what particular signs...?"<br>which are certainly relevant questions.<br><br>What's esp. disheartening to me is the increasing trend of homogenization of American society and culture through the myriad psyops and conditioning propaganda and disinfo, and a thousand-and-one insults and degradations of modern life we are now subject to by our illegitimate, criminal 'leadership', where major decisions that affect hundreds of millions of people are made by relative handfuls of officials who keep their true allegiances and agendas and corrupt interests welkl-hidden. Much of what I see in America today is deeply offensive, and on some plane I wish I had the means to relocate. <br><br>My objection to 'one size fits all -- love it or leave it' knee-jerk thinking was just a blanket comment, not directed to your question. I see one's residency in the States as similiar in many ways to the popular-culture dehumanization and accomodation to, even complicity with, militarized violence that occurs among occupying troops in a hostile conflict. This is a country that imprisons conscientious objectors like Sgt. Bnederman who refused a third-deployment to Iraq because he saw the war as a horrific, unjustified crime -- while venerating such despicable gangsters as Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Chertoff, Rice, Perle, and the whole bunch of treasonous Constitution-bashing murderous thugs. We have a media that regularly censors the real horror of the Iraq and Afghan wars, while bombarding us with advertising images of sleek cars and sexy, glamorous lifestyle products. Sometimes it seems like the whole nation is out of whack and living in a make-believe Disneyworld fantasy.<br><br>I can appreciate and respect anyone wishing to do the best by their family -- for some, that may mean choosing to relocate to a nation that reflects one's ideals and values, at least more than the US now does, and protecting them from poisonous, hateful attitudes and possible, likely backlashes and hardships resulting from America's failed, incompetant and criminally-negligent 'leadership'.<br><br>The anonymous, hypothetical argument, "Well, what if EVERYONE simply 'ran'?" is a red-herring IMO. One could just as reasonably impugn Jews and Gypseys and anti-war intellectuals for seeing the writing on the wall and fleeing Nazi Germany before it erupted into the flames and decay and horrors of WW II. Plenty of people took a stand and fought the demons of hate and war, and suffered greviously for their principles, without altering the juggernaut one iota. One MUST choose one's battles. Sometimes its better, more effective, to set a postive life-affirming, gracious example in decent-living than to place one's heads into the gears of the clanking killing machine.<br><br>To suggest (as some have) that every alternative to living in the states under the current repressive, reactionary climate consists of nothing more than bare, crude survival in a remote 'shack' is too inane to take seriously. IMO: That kind of uncreative, uninformed, unimaginative thinking is part of the problem of American society being bamboozled and manipulated by the kleptocracy to such an extent. Besides, for every American leaving there are several wanting to enter the states, fleeing the persecution and crippling economic calamity caused in large part by the US's wasteful, exploitive, neocolonial, neoliberal policies (Nafta, Gatt, IMF & World Bank 'structural adjustments' as in Mexico where unfair trade devastates local producers and industries, providing a market for subsidized US agribusiness products which in-turn encourages crime, racketeering and corruption).<br><br>Shure 'nuff, the coming Revolution is gonna need all the love and hope and courage and imagination and help it can get.<br><br>Peace,<br>Starman <p></p><i></i>

[Mentalgongfu]

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The anonymous, hypothetical argument, "Well, what if EVERYONE simply 'ran'?" is a red-herring IMO. <br><br>...<br><br>One MUST choose one's battles. Sometimes its better, more effective, to set a postive life-affirming, gracious example in decent-living than to place one's heads into the gears of the clanking killing machine.<br><br>...<br><br>To suggest (as some have) that every alternative to living in the states under the current repressive, reactionary climate consists of nothing more than bare, crude survival in a remote 'shack' is too inane to take seriously.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br><br>I would never fault anyone for wanting to leave this country because they do not support America's insane adventures, but if one wishes to stop such adventures, leaving will do little toward that end.<br><br>I cannot disagree that we must choose our battles, and that peace of mind is more important than blind allegiance to any flag. <br><br>But so many people scream for Americans to wake up to the horrors being committed in their name and the police state which is being established. <br><br>Are people expected to wake up, only to flee? How long will that work?<br><br>The way I see it, if you're going to "wake up," you then have three choices: Return to ignorance and denial, run away, or face it and fight it. <br><br>For some, leaving might be the best option. But it doesn't do anything to stem the tide of oppression heading our way. <br><br>Fighting doesn't have to mean being a survivalist in a shack somewhere. Becoming aware of the world around you is a hell of a good start. <br><br>Ghandi said:<br>"You must be the change you wish to see in others." <p></p><i></i>

[maggrwaggr]

I fully agree that if one is able to leave, one should.<br><br>I've seen the writing on the wall. But for personal reasons I am unable to leave, at least for another ten years or so.<br><br>We are now in a police state in this country. It's only going to get worse as the resistance to it begins.<br><br>If you're smart enough to see this, you should leave if you're economically and otherwise able to. <p></p><i></i>

[smithtalk]

its all very well quoting gandhi but he had a few hundred million supporters against a tiny occupying force with what now looks like stone age equipment,<br>for an example of a non-violent struggle with the odds reversed check out the plight of the tibetan people, whats left of them<br><br>its like the people in australia, who in the face of an immense bush fire that is sweeping along say, "no, i am going to stand and defend my house against it", usually with a garden hose,<br>usually they are found dead in the smouldering ruins of thier house,<br><br>why fight a fight that you know you cant win,<br>run away, live to fight another day when the odds are better, its basic strategic thinking <p></p><i></i>

[streeb]

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Vansterdam...is that an accurate nickname?<br>If only it weren't so cold...but with global warming and everything...<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>It was HOT in Vansterdam today - absolutely beautiful. Havanagila is right about the culture here. Lots of parapolitically inclined folk, plus runaway Process Church types, John Hutchison and William Gibson. Phil Dick nearly died here. <p></p><i></i>

[NavnDansk]

Didn't many of the people who fled Nazi Germany send money and aid back, sometimes for underground railroads and in the case of the US told the truth which was a factor in the the US enteing the war.<br><br>Have only read bits and pieces about the Resistance in books like A Nun's Story and The Corsican Woman and Shelley Winter's first autobiography and parts of Prince of Tides writer in his Beach Music.<br><br>Does anyone know of good sites online about the Resistance? <p></p><i></i>

[havanagilla]

that really depends if you believe the war happened, and if so, that it wasn't actually started by Bush's grandpa; and if so, that there was a holocaust; and if so whether they killes Jews or ..poor innocent khazarians mistaken for jews...and if so, whether there was a resistance or in fact they were part of the fascists or the royal brittish family...etc. <br><br>Otherwise, on Resistance, I would try under the country you are trying to study. and then go to Wikipeida, possibly WW2, france, Resistance...etc.<br><br>Recent nice movie (French) about the resistance and how actually this too is overblown. the movie tells about a family of "famous resistant fighters" a man and wife. It turns out, unlike the "movies" that the wife betrayed her husband etc. etc., but they kept the legend alive by gonig to lecture tours all over the world and giving interviews and finally selling the rights to the false story to Hollywood.<br> <p></p><i></i>

[Corvidaerex]

What is this "don't be a wuss & run away" attitude about? Why should anybody feel obligated to stay in the land where they were born, or where they are a citizen? Who cares? What's with the dumb nationalism stuff?<br><br>Go where you like. You owe nothing to the dirt on which you were born. We owe nothing to whatever crooks happen to be in political power where we live.<br><br>And for those tough guys who are going to "stay and fight," how do you think that's going to turn out? Ruby Ridge & Waco, anybody? The Black Panthers, the Weathermen? Geronimo and the Apaches?<br><br>I live in the States now, but it won't take too much more to make me decide it is safer for my family to live somewhere else. All governments are crooked, but there are dozens of countries with a good standard of living *and* a somewhat sane state apparatus. I've lived in a lot of different countries & there are absurdities to life in all of them. But of the "free" countries I've lived in, none ever felt so dangerous as the USA.<br> <p></p><i></i>

[havanagilla]

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>But of the "free" countries I've lived in, none ever felt so dangerous as the USA.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>I bet Israel wasn't among them...<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :rolleyes --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/eyes.gif ALT=":rolleyes"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <p></p><i></i>

[Lizzy Dearborn]

Where would it be so safe.... <br><br>enough safety that it would offset the large effort it would take to move? <p></p><i></i>

[Ted the dog]

"What is this "don't be a wuss & run away" attitude about? Why should anybody feel obligated to stay in the land where they were born, or where they are a citizen? Who cares? What's with the dumb nationalism stuff?"<br><br>Who said anything about nationalism? I seriously doubt there are many RI-ers here that adhere to nationalism. Personally, I look at it more as this is where I live, I don't have money to flee, I don't see a need to flee (yet) and even if I did, I'd try something else before leaving. <br><br><br>Also, Meek, in regards to the article you posted, is it sobering to you because you think it speaks the truth?<br> <p></p><i></i>

[bvonahsen]

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I fully agree that if one is able to leave, one should.<br><br>I've seen the writing on the wall. But for personal reasons I am unable to leave, at least for another ten years or so.<br><br>We are now in a police state in this country. It's only going to get worse as the resistance to it begins.<br><br>If you're smart enough to see this, you should leave if you're economically and otherwise able to.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <br><br>Actually, I have re-thought what I said before and I'm no longer sure it would make sense to flee. It is all speculation anyways because I don't have the money to make such choices as it is. However....<br><br>If I take as given that the goal is a one world fascist state, to use the US as an engine to wage war to achieve that goal, then it makes little sense for me to move. I'll still be poor no matter where I go. My best plan is to use my skills to educate myself and work for my personal goals so that I can have more options in my life. I would think that would be a good idea for most folks too. Your mileage, of course, may vary. <p></p><i></i>

[greencrow0]

I live in a suburb of Vancouver.<br><br>It was very warm here today. Scarily so. I hope we're not going to have a lot of forest fires next August.<br><br>I am also thinking of leaving...north america.<br><br>My partner is a Swedish citizen so I am thinking of moving there if things get any 'hotter' in NA.<br><br>If you want to get away from the US....Canada is too close. We can feel the envious eyes upon us and we're getting nervous...looking at Iraq, Iran and other nations that the fascist covet. We know they can turn on us like a scorpion at any time.<br><br>My suggestion is to join a peace group and work to overturn the fascists...they're in the ropes anyway.<br><br>Work to improve your country first. If you really put your mind and all your energy to it...you can save america...it doesn't have to be a superpower...just a decent place to live. <p></p><i></i>

[greencrow0]

So, inspite of selling our soul to the devil in Afghanistan tonight, we're still going to have the big defense contractors on our border.<br> <br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Bush_looks_to_defense_contractors_to_0517.html">www.rawstory.com/news/200..._0517.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> <br><br>Bush looks to defense contractors to solve immigration woes <br><br>RAW STORY<br>Published: Wednesday May 17, 2006 <br><br>Print This | Email This<br><br><br>The quick fix may involve sending in the National Guard. But to really patch up the broken border, President Bush is preparing to turn to a familiar administration partner: the nation's giant military contractors, the NEW YORK TIMES reports on Thursday front pages. Excerpts:<br><br>#<br>Lockheed Martin, Raytheon and Northrop Grumman, three of the largest military contractors, are among the companies that said they would submit bids within two weeks for a multibillion-dollar federal contract to build a "virtual fence" along the nation's borders.<br><br>Using some of the same high-priced, high-tech tools these companies have already put to work in Iraq and Afghanistan -- like unmanned aerial vehicles, ground surveillance satellites and motion-detection video equipment -- the military contractors are zeroing in on the rivers, deserts, mountains and settled areas that separate Mexico and Canada from the United States.<br><br>It is a humbling acknowledgment that despite more than a decade of initiatives with macho-sounding names, like Operation Hold the Line in El Paso or Operation Gate Keeper in San Diego, the federal government repeatedly has failed on its own to gain control of the borders.<br><br>Through its Secure Border Initiative, the Bush administration intends to not simply buy high-tech equipment to help it patrol the borders -- a tactic it has also already tried, at a cost of hundreds of millions of dollars, with limited success. It is also asking the contractors to devise and build a whole new border strategy.<br><br>DEVELOPING...<br> <br> <br> <p></p><i></i>