Ray McGovern, CIA media analyst. Infiltrator.

by **Hugh Manatee Wins** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:57 am

27 years as CIA analyst and now infiltrating the peace and justice community and 9/11 truth movement, Ray McGovern says all the anti-Bush things we want to hear while representing Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS) and acting as a human credential for the largest narco-terrorist group in the world, the Central Intelligence Agency which has spread torture, coups, poverty, and war for decades. In this 2004 Mother Jones magazine interview, McGovern announces that the internet allows him to be "morally certain" about information quite easily. Yet he isn't a member of Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Morality, is he? Because it is impossible, Mr. McGovern. The CIA is amoral like you. <a href="http://www.motherjones.com/news/qa/2004/03/03_400.html">www.motherjones.com/news/...3_400.html</a> <blockquote>Quote:<hr>MotherJones.com: First, the obvious question. Why should anybody listen to what VIPS has to say? Ray McGovern: Well, two things on that. First, the proof is in the pudding. Read what we've written. Well before the war started, we were saying that there certainly weren't enough weapons of mass destruction in Iraq to warrant a war, that there weren't any weapons there that were even a threat to other countries in the region. Second, believe it or not, 85 percent of the material one needs to analyze these crucial problems is available publicly. This has always been the case. With the incredible amount of information available on the Internet, I can by ten o'clock in the morning, be morally certain that I have 80 to 90 percent of the information that's available on a given subject. I spent 27 years analyzing top officials and their pronouncements, and the media that they control, or the media that was existing in their countries at the time. So media analysis, which is a sub-discipline of political science, is something that one picks up very quickly. <hr></blockquote>

by **Hugh Manatee Wins** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:09 pm

More of McGovern's focus on just the Bush admin as an aberration in the long history of American military virtue aided by his CIA which runs a gulag of torture camps. McGovern sells the idea that the CIA kept America on the moral straight and narrow before THIS Bush. Lies, Mr. McGovern. Lies- <blockquote>Quote:<hr>MJ.com: Why are you speaking out like this? RM: Because there is no English word to describe our outrage. We've been watching this for a year now, and we've published eleven memos on what the Bush administration has done. We're just aghast at what we saw all during 2002. We have never seen anything like this orchestrated campaign, as the Administration chose to play on America's real suffering and trauma to sell an illegal and unnecessary war. MJ.com: In light of what's gone on recently, what is your group's feeling now about our intelligence capabilities and how intelligence is being used? RM: The intelligence process is broken, really broken. This is, in terms of the immediate problem, the only thing that the President is right about -- it is a dangerous world out there. He's helped make it so, but it is very dangerous, and there is an intelligence process here that has been prostituted and battered around. <hr></blockquote>

by **Dreams End** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:11 pm

Funny you should bring up McGovern. I just wrote a long piece which addresses two issues (which probably muddles both). One is the Israel made us do it theme and the other is the rise of CIA "spokespeople" for aspects of the anti-war movement. This is for my new blog, which will also deal specifically with Nashville related issues, which is why there is emphasis on a paper by a local fellow that no one here will have heard of. <a href="http://nashvilleunderground.wordpress.com/2006/09/16/this-war-is-for-israel/#more-9">link</a> Note, it turns out Wordpress does not have an automatic "blockquote" function. I've taken to adding them into the html code by hand, which is a pain, but I didn't in this piece and it makes it hard to read. I'm going to go back and fix it soon. I'd just reprint it here, but the links and formatting will not transfer with it. I plan to address more directly the increasingly visible role of intelligence agents in the anti-war movement. This article really only addresses it in terms of how they are part of the blame Israel movement. Obviously, those who believe Israel is to blame for the Iraq war should probably just skip the article altogether. However, you MIGHT at least ask yourself why the CIA is so interested in promoting that theme. No one on my local peace group mailing list found this new phenomenon of CIA leaders of the anti-war movement to be that disturbing at all. Back in the old days, they used to infiltrate peace groups under cover. These days, they don't even bother with cover. And yet they are embraced with open arms.

by **Hugh Manatee Wins** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:32 pm

Thanks for the heads up, DE, I'll take a look. Despite my categorical rejection of Ray McGovern as a 'good guy' CIA agent, I'm also aware of human nature and compartmentalization which can lead to AHA! moments of disillusionment and true resistance to what was previously ok. As in, the first generation of ex-CIA whistleblowers who renounced the agency altogether like Philip Agee, Victor Marchetti, John Stockwell, Ralph McGeehee, etc. I'm sure there are plenty of intel ops who were carefully led down the American Virtue Path Against Evil who are realizing the scam they enabled and will be more and more coming out of the woodwork to renounce their old ways. So we are going to have to judge whether they are genuine or not to glean as much info from them as possible and gain more allies in the military intelligence community, many of whom paradoxically want the same America we want despite who they work for. I mean, just look at the conversion of Dr. Robert Bowman from 100 sorties over Vietnam bombing for freedom to first head of the 'Star Wars' program to peace activist and Congressional candidate running successfully so far on a 9/11 truth platform. And Bowman is as genuine as they come, a true believer in the American ideals we are raised to revere as children. His conversion story: www.rmbowman.com/ssn/journey.htm So I hope your article goes into HOW to discern the sincerity of whistleblowers and not just a warning against all intel ops. Because the truly repentent named above gave us keys to the game that are priceless.

by **Dreams End** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:34 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>As in, the first generation of ex-CIA whistleblowers who renounced the agency altogether like Philip Agee, Victor Marchetti, John Stockwell,<hr></blockquote> Those guys denounced the CIA itself. So I can't say for sure they are sincere, but McGovern does not. He pushes the CIA is good but their fine work is twisted by neocons line. So that's one way toward discernment.

by **Hugh Manatee Wins** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:38 pm

Imagine unrepentent CIA McGovern sharing a table with Peter Dale Scott who wrote the definitive book on CIA heroin trafficking. It will happen in Berkeley on 9/24 at this excellent Pacifica Radio 9/11 event which I heartily endorse despite McGovern. Everyone else on the panel is solid- <img src="http://www.kpfa.org/images/events/9.11.event.jpg" style="border:0;"/> http://kpfa.org/events/index.php?#729 <blockquote>Quote:<hr>A KPFA original event gathering scholars who confront the unspeakable: DAVID RAY GRIFFIN - Professor Of Philosophy and Theology, Emeritus, Claremont Graduate University. He is the author or editor of some 30 books, including The New Pearl Harbor, Disturbing Questions About the Bush Administration and 9/11 (2004) The 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions and Distortions (2005) Christian Faith and the Truth Behind 9/11: A Call to Reflection and Action (2006) PETER DALE SCOTT - former Canadian diplomat, Professor of English, Emeritus, at U.C. Berkeley. Books include: Drugs, Oil and War; The U.S. in Afghanistan, Colombia, and Indochina, The Iran-Contra Connection, and Coming To Jakarta. Forthcoming from U.C. Press: The Road to 9/11: Wealth, Empire, and the Future of America. He won the 2002 Lannan Poetry Award. RAY McGOVERN, host - Army officer, CIA analyst for 27 years (from John F. Kennedy to George H. W. Bush administrations). Founder of Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity. His articles and op-eds have appeared in newspapers around the country, in Europe, on TomPaine.com, Truthout.com, Commondreams.org, Counterpunch.org and Antiwar.com. McGovern has appeared in several video documentaries-notably, Robert Greenwald's "Uncovered: The War on Iraq" and "Breaking the Silence: Truth and Lies in the War on Terror" (produced by John Pilger). He writes and speaks for the arm of Tell the Word called "Speaking Truth to Power." PETER PHILLIPS - Professor of Sociology at Sonoma State University, Director of Project Censored (with Bridget Thornton and Celeste Vogler), a media research organization, whose annual compilations are published by W.W. Norton. "Project Censored is one of the organizations that we should listen to, to be assured that our newspapers and our broadcasting outlets are practicing thorough and ethical journalism." - Walter Cronkite. His senior-level research assistants are Bridget Thornton and Celeste Vogler. KEVIN RYAN - Certified Quality Engineer, B.S. in Chemistry, many years Laboratory Operations Manager and then Site Manager at Environmental Health Laboratories. On March 15, 2006 Ryan gave a lecture titled A 9/11 Whistleblower Examines the Official Conspiracy Theory in Bloomington, Indiana. This lecture was taped and broadcast. "We have put out this volume in the conviction that 9/11 was not only the largest and least-investigated homicide in American history but perhaps also the largest hoax, with extremely fateful consequences for human civilization as a whole. If our educational community cannot address this issue, then it risks remaining merely "academic" in the worst sense of that term." - statement of editors David Ray Griffin & Peter Dale Scott<hr></blockquote>

by * » Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:04 pm

The FBI 'ran' McCarthy and the CIA brought him down through Operation Mockingbird... <a href="http://experts.about.com/e/o/op/Operation_Mockingbird.htm">link</a> <blockquote>Quote:<hr> "..J. Edgar Hoover became jealous of the CIA's growing power. He described the OPC as "Wisner's gang of weirdos" and began carrying out investigations into their past. It did not take him long to discover that some of them had been active in left-wing politics in the 1930s. This information was passed to who started making attacks on members of the OPC. Hoover also gave McCarthy details of an affair that Frank Wisner had with Princess Caradja in Romania during the war. Hoover, claimed that Caradja was a Soviet agent. Joseph McCarthy also began accusing other senior members of the CIA as being security risks. McCarthy claimed that the CIA was a "sinkhole of communists" and claimed he intended to root out a hundred of them. One of his first targets was Cord Meyer, who was still working for Operation Mockingbird. In August, 1953, Richard Helms, Wisner's deputy at the OPC, told Meyer that Joseph McCarthy had accused him of being a communist. The Federal Bureau of Investigation added to the smear by announcing it was unwilling to give Meyer "security clearance". However, the FBI refused to explain what evidence they had against Meyer. Allen W. Dulles and Frank Wisner both came to his defence and refused to permit a FBI interrogation of Meyer. Joseph McCarthy did not realise what he was taking on. Wisner unleashed Mockingbird on McCarthy. Drew Pearson, Joe Alsop, Jack Anderson, Walter Lippmann and Ed Murrow all went into attack mode and McCarthy was permanently damaged by the press coverage orchestrated by Wisner. .."<hr></blockquote> The multinationalist CIA has been turffed by the Bush regime and is looking to play a kind of 'Mockingbird-good-guy' as in the Joe McCarthy days. <a href="http://www.organicconsumers.org/corp/070903_wto.cfm">link</a> <blockquote>Quote:<hr> 4. The crisis of globalization, neoliberalism, and overproduction provides the context for understanding the economic policies of the Bush administration, notably its unilateralist thrust. The globalist corporate project expressed the common interest of the global capitalist elites in expanding the world economy and their fundamental dependence on one another. However, globalization did not eliminate competition among the national elites. In fact, the ruling elites of US and Europe had factions that were more nationalist in character as well as more tied for their survival and prosperity to the state, such as the military-industrial complex in the US. Indeed, since the eighties there has been a sharp struggle between the more globalist fraction of ruling elite stressing common interest of global capitalist class in a growing world economy and the more nationalist, hegemonist faction that wanted to ensure the supremacy of US corporate interests. As Robert Brenner has pointed out, the policies of Bill Clinton and his Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin put prime emphasis on the expansion of the world economy as the basis of the prosperity of the global capitalist class. For instance, in the mid-1990's, they pushed a strong dollar policy meant to stimulate the recovery of the Japanese and German economies, so they could serve as markets for US goods and services. The earlier more nationalist Reagan administration, on the other hand, had employed a weak dollar policy to regain competitiveness for the US economy at the expense of the Japanese and German economies. With the George W. Bush administration, we are back to economic policies, including a weak dollar policy, that are meant to revive the US economy at the expense of the other center economies and push primarily the interests of the US corporate elite instead of that of global capitalist class under conditions of a global downturn. 5. The Bush administration has supplanted the globalist political economy of the Clinton period with a unilateralist, nationalist political economy that intends to shore up the global dominance of the US corporate elite economically that parallels the aggressive military policy that is meant to ensure the military supremacy of the United States..."<hr></blockquote> <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Back in the old days, they used to infiltrate peace groups under cover. These days, they don't even bother with cover. And yet they are embraced with open arms.<hr></blockquote> This is the in-your-face era... from the first 'selection' to the WTC to the blatent daily lies, the hallmark of the BushAge is: do it in plain sight for maximum outrage....

by **Hugh Manatee Wins** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:06 pm

Showing that McGovern is not merely a compartmentalized analyst, here he is commenting on the institutionalized schizophrenia at the CIA where covert ops create messes their own analysts abhor. But he says that a secret war in Central America "makes no sense." He does not say that training and arming death squads is a crime against humanity. Thus he speaks 'strategically' and not morally. And that is where McGovern loses his credibility with me.- <blockquote>Quote:<hr>MJ.com: Can the intelligence apparatus be fixed? RM: For the first time in my forty years of watching intelligence, I'm not sure it can be fixed. There are structural faults, almost literally structural, in the way the CIA is set up. MJ.com: What are the structural problems? RM: The primary one is with the National Security Act itself. It stressed two primary functions: One, that there be one "central place" for all the nation's intelligence, and two, that this one agency would have no policy axes to grind. It was supposed to give the President the unvarnished truth, without fear or favor, and with career protection. Those are the first two duties of the CIA. But there is a third duty, established in 1947, that refers to "such other functions" as the President and the NSC might deem necessary -- that is, "covert action." It made sense at the time, given the conflict with the Soviet Union. But now, should covert action be part of the same agency that's performing the other two duties? There is a built-in conflict. Suppose you've got one part of the Agency running a secret war in Central America, and you have analysts in the same agency looking at that war and saying, honestly, that the war makes no sense. That's real. That's a very big structural fault.  <hr></blockquote>

by **dbeach** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 4:16 pm

Hugh ......... you say Griffin is solid..MAYBE?? but whats this about in his book?? and his pal Faulk. Richard Falk was CFR and I did not read their book BUT I do find it disturbing that Mr. Griffin says the phrase:"theology for a new world order" in his older book.. {I have been attacked for posting this here but its his words not mine...} “Our efforts toward global governance must be two-pronged: at the same time as the case is being made for the necessity and possibility of global government, people in various religious and philosophical traditions need to be interpreting those traditions, probably through a combination of retrieval and reformation, so as to reveal and emphasize their support for this transition to world unity. . . My major project at present is, in fact, to develop a theology for a new world order . . .” (from your chapter in the library book cited at beginning). “Toward Genuine Global Governance” a chapter entitled ‘Global Government: Objections Considered’. <a href="http://mysite.verizon.net/vze25x9n/id25.html">mysite.verizon.net/vze25x9n/id25.html</a>

by **robertdreed** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:01 pm

I don't buy the Grand Unified Theory of CIA Conspiracy. Unpacked, it suffers from the same flaws as the Grand Unified Theory of Jewish Conspiracy. It's facile. An easy catch-all label. I hear people like Hugh and Dream's End proposing it as if the CIA were THE nexus of covert political power in the USA, or the Western world, and as if everyone who's ever drawn a salary from them is a crypto-Nazi in service of their plutocratic masters behind the scenes. No matter the post, station, or bureaucratic division... And, by Dream's End's calculation, the latest CIA gambit is inciting anti-Semitism, pursuing a Grand Unified long-term strategy of falsely blaming Israel for everything that's really the CIA's fault, as a prelude for blaming "the Jews" for everything that's really the CIA's fault. That will no doubt come as news to the Jewish employees and officers of the CIA- for instance Ray McGovern's long-time friend and colleague in the analysis division, Mel Goodman... <a href="http://reprehensor.gnn.tv/blogs/11700/Ray_McGovern_July_22nd_2005">reprehensor.gnn.tv/blogs/..._22nd_2005</a> Not to mention Bill Casey's old buddy back in the Iran-Contra era, Max Hugel... <a href="http://schema-root.org/region/americas/north_america/usa/government/officials/max_c._hugel/">schema-root.org/region/am..._c._hugel/</a> And maybe we can get further into the role that, say, Mel Sembler has played for the Republican Party and the Bush dynasty over the years. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melvin_Sembler">en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melvin_Sembler</a> Correct me if I'm wrong, but according to the logical progression of the Grand Unified CIA Conspiracy Theory, Sembler and Bush are both run by, and subject to being made or broken by...the shadowy leadership of the CIA, their Unknown Superiors. I don't buy it. Neither do I buy the idea that back in the Cold War era, it was somehow okay for the Soviet Union to have a KGB (who certainly never did anything like consorting with dictators, thugs, and assasins, experimenting with operant conditioning and mind control, or arming paramilitaries and armed insurgency groups, or smuggling drugs- no way!), while it wasn't okay for the United States to have a counterpart spy and intelligence agency. That seems to me to be the tacit subtext of demonizing and villainizing the historic role of every last person, place or thing stamped with the brand "CIA", as if the CIA people debriefing defectors from Eastern Europe in the Analysis Department bore the exact same weight of knowledge and responsibility for Latin American Death Squads as the CIA Covert Ops people liasoning with Operation Condor goons and secret police in the Southern Cone of South America. Is it so unbelievable to consider that few- if any-of the CIA Russian linguists and the people in the CIA Analysis Department concerned with the Soviet nuclear weapons programs in the 1970s knew Operation Condor from the Robert Redford movie with a coincidentally similar title* from that same time period? They had an entirely different focus for their mental energy. [ *I realize that Hugh Manatee might beg to differ with me about exactly how coincidental that choice of movie title really was...] (For that matter, why have there been so many entirely different military, law enforcement-paramilitary campaigns in entirely different times and places called "Operation Condor"- Mexico 1975, Peru 1982, the Southern Cone 1976-81, etc.-, anyway? At least in part: to confuse anyone "outside the loop" who encountered the name in the course of overhearing a neighboring conversation. ) Extra Credit- has anyone else here read The Invisible Government, by David Wise, which provides a carefully detailed breakdown of the various divisions in the CIA, demonstrating it to be a peerless model of bureaucratic compartmentalization, obviously designed to keep as many people as possible "out of the loop" on doings outside of their purview- not just in terms of "plausible deniability", but in terms of actual ignorance? There are sound practical reasons why the Bush-Casey-Ollie North et al. Contra support effort/ "Terrorist Incident Working Group" and the Office of Public Diplomacy were taken out of Langley and put in "the basement of the White House" as a special project of the National Security Council. Primarily related to the minimization of "scuttlebutt", to use an old military colloquialism. I'm not suggesting that there are no infiltrators into the anti-regime resistance bearing- even trumpeting- CIA ( or FBI, or law enforcement, or military ) pedigrees. (Do I believe, say, Vincent Cannistraro, or Richard Armitage, or that ex-Army ninja cowboy discussed elsewhere on the forum? No. ) However, that said-- in terms of impetus, what I hear from some posters around here from time to time doesn't differ all that much from the historic programs of paranoid ideologues mounting "pre-emptive" purges of their ranks based on single-criterion litmus tests, in order to ensure maximum conformity and consensus with their own personal agendas. I've also observed the results of this sort of exclusionary "purism" when it gets taken to its ultimate- when it gets translated to the idea that unless you're an unemployed dumpster-diving squatter, you've "sold out to the man." The circular firing squad eventually thins the ranks to the point where only the most morose, alienated, and misanthropic need apply. A mindset that tends to leave the adherents easy prey on the streets, incidentally, especially if their background is middle class...Ishmael Reed called it Moocherism, in his book The Last Days of Louisiana Red. People who identify their loserdom and self-marginalization with political virtue. Sincerely and otherwise. ( Quote from the book, closely paraphrased: "the political philosophy of Moochers is Marxism." Maybe not the exact words, but it's a directly phrased simple declarative sentence. And that's the gist of it. ) With a "movement" like that, who needs provocateurs? Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=robertdreed>robertdreed</A> at: 9/19/06 5:57 pm

by **slimmouse** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:26 pm

So, who is actually in control ? I read an interesting article lately about the Ant. It suggested that whilst the queen was alive, irrespective of where the workers were, the colony were driven to go about their daily routine. They had some kind of telepathic order, based upon the order of the system. If the queen died meanwhile, irrespective of where the colony were, or what they were doing, then the said colony broke up into chaos. Surely something worthy of reflection if we are to free ourselves of the lizards. No real surprise that the Merovingian crest meanwhile has the Beehive as one of its focal points. All coincidence no doubt." There is no order." Where was Gulyiani ( KBE ) when the towers came down ? Where was he when the bombs went off in London. Life is merely a hive of coincidences no doubt <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/roll.gif ALT=":rollin"> Anyone want to tell me about the "R-complex" in our brains ? Where in Darwins name does that come from ?

by **robertdreed** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 8:02 pm

There's a capacity in humans that ants lack, slimmouse- the ability to say "no." To confound all of the predictabilities of "seek pleasure, avoid pain" reward/punishment stimulus>>response behaviorism: to be absolutely, adamantly contrary- to logic, to rationality, to any appeal whatsoever from an "outside authority." The ability to say "to hell with it all, non serviam." That you'd rather go insane, that you'd rather starve, that you like pain, come on, bring it... Ants? They're much simpler. In Orwell's novel 1984, Winston is finally "broken" by Big Brother by the prospect of having his face locked in a cage to be gnawed on by rats. But that's merely a fictional scenario in a book, not all-supreme inevitability for all of mankind, end of story. In real life, there are people who will say- who have said- "okay, the rats. Go on, do it, see if I care. And by the way, go to hell. Non serviam." A friend of mine once told me, "that was the real disappointment of the book. I wanted to see the book ending with Winston choosing to have his face locked in the cage with the rats..." Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=robertdreed>robertdreed</A> at: 9/19/06 8:15 pm

by **slimmouse** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 8:27 pm

My apologies RDR. Didnt make myself perfectly clear. I got the impression from where this thread was going that the CIA are passing the buck to the Zionists and the Jews, who are passing it to the Islamofascists, who are passing it back to the Zionists and the great Satan that is America. And on and on the merry dance goes. Everyone blaming each other, whilst the illicit weapons, drugs, peadophilia deals are orchestrated from above. There is a great thread on Le Circle somewhere around here, for those amongst us who dont fully understand how the order is established amidst the chaos on this earth. My post meanwhile was regarding where the dance stops in the ant world when the Queen dies, and how the merovingians have the Bee hive in the thick of their logo. There are Lots of smart people on this forum, and yet it seems few of them are able to put the capstone on the pyramid so to speak. One guy did a while back. He doesnt post much here these days, but it all made sense to me.

by **Dreams End** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:44 pm

I agree with rdr. Signed, Augusto Pinochet

by **robertdreed** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:58 pm

DE, is the logical fallacy you're attempting to employ against my comments the Straw Man gambit, or Poisoning The Well? I'm not sure where such fantasies of projection get categorized. Reasoned counterpoint, it isn't. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=robertdreed>robertdreed</A> at: 9/19/06 8:20 pm

Ray McGovern, CIA media analyst. Infiltrator.

Ray McGovern, CIA media analyst. Infiltrator.

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Re: Ray McGovern, CIA media analyst. Infiltrator.

Re: Dreams End articles

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Re: Ray McGovern, CIA media analyst. Infiltrator, witting or

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Re: Ray McGovern, CIA media analyst. Sterile. Amoral.

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The Grand Unified Theory of CIA Conspiracy...

The Ant......

free will

My apologies.

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