More on the coming coup

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coup scenarios

Postby robertdreed » Sun Oct 22, 2006 1:38 am

DE, most of what you're broaching doesn't sound like a coup to me- palace, military, or any other kind. You're simply positing more manuevers in the world of weak-ass "bipartisan partisan" politics, American style. <br><br>Which probably accounts for a much of what is likely in store for us for the next 2 years, although if that game buys the country enough time and space to restore habeus corpus, disavow torture, get accurate balloting results, and maybe even provide for a ranked-choice voting reform, I will count it as progress. <br><br>Mostly, you just sound like you're putting forth the standard Left complaint about the "absence of revolutionary conditions" in the USA.<br><br>Personally, I think that if/when it finally arrives, "praxis" is going to come from an entirely different direction than anywhere on the 2-D Euclidean spectrum of political ideologies. <br><br>In the meantime, I'll settle for not having matters deteriorate to the point where ordinary citizens like myself- or even unlike myself- face the iminent prospect of being hunted down and disappeared...which is my main concern about any drastic change in the methods of governing this country, either with or without a military junta. <br><br><br><br><br><br><br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=robertdreed>robertdreed</A> at: 10/21/06 11:40 pm<br></i>
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Re: I really do pity......

Postby Fat Lady Singing » Sun Oct 22, 2006 10:21 am

Dream's End said<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I think I'd ask activists to have a look at who is funding a group before becoming involved with them. <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>This is a fantastic idea right off the bat for any kind of real change, no matter the political leanings of the activist. But the problem is, okay, you find out who's funding a group...now you have to find out if there's anything suspicious about that funder. So many of these groups have such generic names, like "Americans for a Better America," or some such. It's not like they call themselves "Neocons Promoting Conditions Leading to Paralyzed Masses," or anything.<br><br>So you find out some group or entity is backing another group or entity you'd like to be involved with, and let's say you act with due diligence and try to find out who the funder's funders are. In all likelihood the money has been difused through several filters specifically to obfuscate who's really behind it. It becomes a tangled mess at this point, a mess most activists probably aren't really that keen to try to untangle. And face it, if they did, they'd lose the "active" part of activism anyway. And they'd become so cynical that they'd never be activists again! (That's sort of where I'm at).<br><br>Maybe that's where RI readers and posters can perform a real, valuable service. <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Wouldn't it be nice if there was a list of groups that activists commonly become allied with along with some notes about their funding or political/cultural ties?</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> I mean, what if, for instance, you could look up (and this is strictly a rhetorical example here) on a list "PITA" and find out that they get some of their money from anti-Choice groups? That list would be kind of cool.<br><br>Dream's End said:<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I'd also ask people to focus on efforts to transform the economic structure of the country. I'd like to see better understanding of class and less emphasis on single issue and identity politics. <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>I'm with you there, too, DE! Unfortunately, in this political/cultural climate, you're talking about...OH...MY...GOD!...Socialism! Aren't you? Admit it, you Red! (For the record, I'm lefter than most of the American Left and would gladly welcome Socialism as an ideal and indeed think there are some redeeming features of Communism).<br><br>The trend on the Left is to drift toward the center, which is probably why Big Ed is the only "Leftie" talker with much pull. As the Republicans have shifted the country rightward, they've taken the Democrats and even other people on the Left with them, unfortunately.<br><br>A lot of it is, again, due to cynicism: the pols think it's what the people want because they naively believe that's what the polls really say. <br><br>A lot of it is, I'm afraid, due to the fact that there's not a whole lot of difference between the American "Left" and the American "Right." Hell, I thought that during the Clinton years, even, and boy do I look back on those days fondly.<br><br>Maybe that's why single-issue politics is on the rise? People sense that the politicos aren't much different from one another, so they figure if they put their efforts into one issue that's important to them, they have a better chance of making a difference. Maybe that's not such a bad idea, actually. Hm. <br><br>I guess the question becomes: "Is the world going down the tubes no matter what we do?" I kind of think so, personally, but maybe even if that's the case, we can make our world as comfortable as possible in its declining years. <br><br>Not exactly a rallying cry for ACTION!, I know. But if you take this attitude, maybe single-issue politics is the way to go. I know personally I get paralyzed when I try to think about the Big Picture. That is, I have no problem picturing the Big Picture--it's just that I can see there's very little way for me, Fat Lady Singing, to affect the Big Picture. Maybe bringing it down to micropolitics is the way to go for people like me. <br><br>But then I see the problems with this approach, too, and end up tearing out my hair in frustration and paralyzed anyway. Sigh. Thus I post on RI and in other fora, hoping that some word or two I write will spark something in someone who has the motivation and ability to actually make a difference for the better--better minds, better hands than mine.<br><br>Dream's End said:<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>...but let's have a little discernment and let's build a movement that sides with the regular people against corporate excess and the corporate state itself.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Damn! Again, I can't agree with you more, DE. But Damn!(2) I have to again bring in a note of cynicism. The Right has been so terribly, terribly effective against the guy who was probably best poised to make a difference in our culture on this issue, Michael Moore. Say what you will (and I'd probably be the first to agree) about MM, he was at least a terrific communicator. We'll see what happens when his new movie comes out. [Of course, I remember when he said his next movie was going to be about the election fraud of 2004 and sent out armies of people to document it as it was happening...I think they ended up posting a few snippets of video on his site, and that was it. Then he changed course and decided to make this health insurance movie.]<br><br>And the Right(/"Left"?) has also been so terribly, terribly effective in making us love the things that "the corporate state" gives us...all the things we didn't used to be able to afford and now wouldn't give up. It's the paradox of Wal-Mart writ large(r). Yeah, sure, everyone kind of knows that it sucks, but we gotta have our cheap DVD players (because our old ones quickly become obsolete because they're so cheaply made). No one wants to see the slaughterhouse, but they all love their steaks! (I'm a vegetarian).<br><br>So how do we combat that? Hell if I know. Which is why I've all but given up, I guess. (See mealy-mouthed excuse for inaction, above).<br><br>Dream's End said:<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I think electoral reform is a great place to focus...in terms of logistics to prevent fraud, instant runoff voting..but also public financing of campaigns and absolute and complete transparency concerning donations. Soft money must die. And this is one area that traditional leftists can unite with people across the politicat spectrum.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>DE, you have once again hit the nail on the head! Except that I'd say that electoral reform is probably the ONLY place to focus right now. I find it ironic that people think that they can vote on measures to combat vote fraud--it happened here in Ohio. What a surprise, the measure didn't pass.<br><br>I just learned seconds ago, as my husband read me an article from The Dispatch, that officials expect 30 percent of the ballots cast here in Franklin County to be absentee ballots. Doesn't that show a complete lack of trust in the system? <br><br>In 2004, I was a little bit "behind the scenes," and saw some stuff that led me to eventually conclude that the reason Kerry lost was because his hackers weren't as effective as Bush's hackers.<br><br>I believe 2006 will be decided not by voters but by hackers, in the "important" races--ones with implications for the political climate in general. The races with less of a national impact won't have enough financial support behind them and the players won't be high enough up in the echelons to make hacking a viable option.<br><br>The question of election reform is SO fraught with...ugh. Yet another really, really tangled mess. <br><br>OK, I've depressed myself enough for one day. DE, please--do what you can to make a difference. You're one of the best and brightest, so perhaps you really can help us. (And that goes of course for Jeff and many, many others who regularly post on RI).<br><br>I'm sorry to be such a downer. Guess I just want someone to hear me singing, even if my song is a dirge. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: I really do pity......

Postby sunny » Sun Oct 22, 2006 12:48 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I'm sorry to be such a downer. Guess I just want someone to hear me singing, even if my song is a dirge.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <br><br>I hear you singing Lady, and I'm right in tune with you. I too, would consider myself a Socialist. It is the only fair system that I can think of. Why don't we all paint a big red bullseye on our backs and join IWW? In for a penny, in for a pound, as they say.<br><br>If there is a military coup, the only thing for us to do is buy a farm and keep our heads down. After all, if it happens, you could say the whole damn country has "bought the farm." We're already squatting on the real estate, as it were. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: coming coup

Postby Byrne » Sun Oct 22, 2006 1:11 pm

I reckon there'll be one in <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Iraq </strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->with prime minister <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Maliki...<br>... </strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>"replaced by a pro-American. The name circulating is former prime minister Iyad Allawi. Rumors add that the US would initially denounce the coup in lip-service to democracy, but eventually cooperate with the new regime because it would bring security to Baghdad."</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> <p></p><i></i>
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back to the land....

Postby stoneonstone » Sun Oct 22, 2006 1:31 pm

"If there is a military coup, the only thing for us to do is buy a farm and keep our heads down."<br><br>If we're not going to sit down in the streets, then this is the smartest thing to do...and I'd recommend doing it before it becomes too late...or illegal.<br><br>Cheers <p></p><i></i>
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Re: back to the land....

Postby bvonahsen » Sun Oct 22, 2006 7:49 pm

Dreams End <br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Consider this scenario...<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>followed by a lengthy exercise in conspiratorial onanism.<br><br>It's called an election hun. Go towards the light! Go towards the light! <br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: back to the land....

Postby Dreams End » Sun Oct 22, 2006 9:25 pm

Maybe this isn't a good website for you, bvohansen. Why don' t you start the "everything is exactly as it seems " website. <br><br>Oh wait...they already have one of those. Well, you can at least contribute.<br><br><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.cnn.com/">link</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: More on the coming coup

Postby pepsified thinker » Sun Oct 22, 2006 9:49 pm

I don't the military as ever showing their hand--If you're 'THEM' and the question is go 'heavy' or ...well, whatever you want to call the other way, it might look like this:<br><br>option A: use all the intercepts and such that are bound to be carefully filed away for just such a situation (like, say a Rep.'s text messages to pages)--and cue your friends in the MSM and whoever is neutral but wants a story to sell, to play up the 'Big Wave of Disgusted Voters/Our Democratic System in Action(hurrah! hurrah!)/Election Drama(it's a close race, folks, stay tuned for updates--and now a word from our sponsors)'.<br><br>Since leveraging a big election will mean a Big Wave of Media Buys too, who's <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>not</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> going to be your friend in the MSM?. For that matter, you ARE the MSM to a certain extent. With a the country already hating Bush anyway, this shouldn't be all that hard to pull off--saying it's an avalanche waiting to happen may be going to far, but in degree not in quality.<br><br>Of course, I'm describing what I see in recent headlines. <br><br>Then there's option B: Tanks in the streets. But if you do this--even a little--you rip up the Constitution. Even if you scotch tape it together later, you've shown that it CAN be ripped up. That will scare the sleeping, complacent, Chevy-drivin'/Walmart shopping God-Bless-America crowd half to death. Some are Bush's base, so they'll hate to see him dumped--even if they were starting to be disgusted with him. You'll martyr him, even if you don't actually kill him. They'll also be even more annoyingly self righteous in their 'victimhood'--and I'd guess they'll be MORE motivated, not less, given their tendency to fuel their political drive on high-test self righteousness. <br><br>Then there's the soldiers, here and abroad, who think they're fighting and dying to make the world safe for democracy. Will they wonder which side of the coup they're supporting? Would they start to pause in thoughtful ways that you <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>don't</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> want when given their orders, now and/or in the future? Plus, there are a LOT of jr. level officers who could gum up the works. They may or may not vote Republican but regardless, they'll balk at violating the Constitution they're sworn to uphold. They are possibly the strongest believers in 'the system' and electoral process and America and all that stuff. How will they view tanks in the streets? <br><br><br>Will folks on the home front get notions of reinforcing civilian oversight of the military? If you're going to turn things over to a Gore- or McCain-type, stirring up such notions could come back to haunt you. And it's not like they're going to love you just because you give them <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>their</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> guy for a leader. Most Democrats/liberals/etc. see the electoral process as broken and/or vulnerable in the wake of 2000 and 2004, but they want to FIX it, not discard it. You'll be part of the problem in their eyes, even if you do them the favor of eliminating Bush. They're going to look for a way and an opportunity to make sure you can't pull the same trick again. That can't be good for you. <br><br>If all this wasn't enough, consider: if you're on the inside of the circle that defines 'THEM', you've been able to get what you want (mostly) with that electoral process only slightly hindering your efforts. Meanwhile, it keeps the masses patiently enduring. <br><br>Why go with option B and risk waking the masses to some kind of fundamental change? <br><br>No. I don't think we'll see tanks in the streets...unless they're in a parade--a $20,000,000 parade-party to 'thank and welcome home' our troops (not celebrate a victory). <br><br>It <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>will</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> be a palace coup. And on the outside of the palace we won't even know (for certain) what went down. <br><br>BUT--I <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>am</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> worried: things may not be as 'settled' as they seem. Dkos had a post from <!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://online.barrons.com/public/article/SB116138396438799484-IdCXhh7Ie9DTbX74S9pa7pqHYY4_20061120.html?mod=9_0002_b_free_features">Barron's</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--> about the election, saying not even House would go Democrat. Given the MSM's chorus to the contrary, this seems like possibly a plant that could be referred back to as a some kind of 'more level headed prediction'--after Diebold gives Republicans another 'November Surprise'.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: More on the coming coup

Postby sunny » Sun Oct 22, 2006 11:19 pm

That Barron's analysis is almost comically stupid. They are going by how much money has been raised and spent. Dems have <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>never</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> had as much money as Repub's, yet they have been known to win elections. (40 years in power ain't nothin') <p></p><i></i>
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Re: American Coup D'Etat:Military Thinkers on the Unthinkabl

Postby NavnDansk » Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:17 am

American Coup D'Etat:Military Thinkers on the Unthinkable<br>at Harpers magazine online<br><br>I have read this round-table discussion many times since April and the thrust of the "military thinkers" argument is that Bushco has been doing an incremental coup and that any military action against the destruction of the US form of government by coup would be a counter-coup and I agree.<br><br>With the detention camps prepared since REX-84 by poppy, not just the $300 million announced in January that was given to Halliburton to stop dissent, it can't get worse - just stay the same or a faint hope that it will get better.<br><br>Someone stopped the BFEE from starting to fill the concentration camps in 1984 and since then, so someone has been fighting against this from the inside.<br><br>I vote for a Military Coup to remove the Bush Regime. <br><!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :\ --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/ohwell.gif ALT=":\"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=navndansk>NavnDansk</A> at: 10/23/06 2:19 am<br></i>
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Re: I really do pity......

Postby Fat Lady Singing » Mon Oct 23, 2006 7:58 am

Hi Sunny--thanks for the commiseration! I don't feel like I'm important enough to anyone to be a target of anything, but I can see that it's a <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>possibility</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->, and it's the possibility that's most disturbing to me. If it's not me, it's you, or someone else I don't even know, and that's unacceptable. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: I really do pity......

Postby postrchild » Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:22 pm

All of these scenarios are predicated on the notion that the US will still be a soveriegn country.......If the NAU comes to life then it wont matter now will it? They have this in the works, and therefore "feeding the tulpa" of the NAU. It will come to pass...I see the roadwork being built all around me, as if it is just a foregone conclusion and they just didnt bother to let us know.... They have accomplished everything they wanted. Even if Bush left office today, its too late. Constitution shredded, Rights abolished, future generations of taxes spent, and corporate control of everything. He has served his purpose. <br><br> And by the way......Mexican Troops will have no problem keeping "Gringos" in the pens as long as there are pesos in the pocket and tequilla on the table. <br><br>C'mon guys look at the bigger picture please. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: back to the land....

Postby Infernal Optimist » Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:44 pm

MP:<br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>Incorrect on all counts. The coup began on December 23rd, 1913 with the federal reserve act.</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br>Or, alternatively, 1886 with the ruling on Santa Clara County vs. Southern Pacific Railroad.<br><br>I must say that the coup's really picking up the pace lately. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: back to the land....

Postby MASONIC PLOT » Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:44 am

Excellent point infernal, when the court ruled in favor of corporate personhood that was a major blow to any chance this nation had at democracy. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: back to the land....

Postby MASONIC PLOT » Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:45 am

(This message was left blank) <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=masonicplot>MASONIC PLOT</A> at: 10/23/06 10:49 pm<br></i>
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