Belgium

by **Joe Hillshoist** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 1:04 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Also, if aboriginals do it, this may sound like normalizing...the conduct...to some degree, and I am not saying you are doing it.<hr></blockquote> There's cultural stuff here that i am not so sure I am fully up to speed with. In indigenous cultures boys became men after various initiation. This could be as young as 14 or 15, if the person was ready for it. This is when these people became adults, so to me sex at 15 in that culture is not the same as sex at 15 inours. Also I am only speaking for the men. there are serious gender based laws in indigenous culture andd as a result I have never really taken in that much knowledge of womens stuff (IE Its not my business to getr into that stuff. Its women's business.) I understand that from the age of accepted adulthood, young men and young women were married to middle aged men and women, obviously men to women and V V. However there is a heap of other stuff from other nations so its only really the nations whose members have told me stuff that I am referring to. There were two particular sides to this that I took as interesting. The first is that the first marriage is a learning process, not the main marriage and is primarily about community and society structure and not sexual relations. But these always come into it eventually, as once the men (and I assume women) become men they are expected to and allowed to have sex. And actually want to themselves. Obviously the relationship between sex marriage and reproduction is designed to maintain a situation where the structure for society exists to maintain the safety and survivability of the young. The second is that indigenous women are strong. Culturally, physically mentally, emotionally and spiritually. They have not suffered the thousands of years of cultural conditioning that Westerners have. This becomes a serious issue when young aboriginal women (teens) end up dealing with police... However in the traditional times it meant that the women from a family (mothers daughters sisters cousins aunties etc etc) were strong enough and more than capable of killing a man who had done the wrong thing, and they had no qualms about it. This was something the men avoided by not being scumbags. Even the striongest warrior is no match for 20 or 30 angry women with hardwood digging sticks. My understanding of indigenous culture is that child abuse was an abberation, tho not an unknown or rare one (just like western culture). But it was unacceptable. It is also part of my understanding that the age of consent idea caje into effect after puberty, and the passing of initiation... That means that although you may be a sexually active adult at 15, that is only the case if you are mature enough physically and mentally, and show this to the satisfaction of the other adults in that society.

by **Joe Hillshoist** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 1:16 am

Biao <blockquote>Quote:<hr>You don't have to "corrupt the law" to sexually abuse children. Children have no standing before the law - they cannot testify against an adult because, culturally, we presume that children are cognitively inferior to adults (although research does not support this). This imbalance is a cultural prejudice that finds expression in law, rather then a corrupting of the law. <hr></blockquote> Yeah I agree. I did have a huge post about the conflict between victims rights and controlling the power of the state re the prosecution of people by the "state" but I guess it kind of detracts from your point. Which is true and unfortunate but no the less true. As i said I haven't read Focault on that particular issue, but considering the other stuff of his I have read, well I dunno whether there was any truth in the interpretation or not. What you are saying fits with my basic understanding of Focault tho. The bit about the "generational" nature of abuse makes sense. especially in a ritual context. exposure to that sort of power may make people feel that the only legitimate expression of power is via abuse. Thats a "mind control meme" just waiting for exploitation IMO. Reminds me of the anarchist poster that used to circulate melb, a fractal image of a guy in a suit wearing a briefcase. He has raised on leg like climbing a stair, and has his back bent. Under his foot is a similar image, and above his back is a bigger foot from the same image. The caption is something like "Capitalism each man (ha) has power over someone else's life, not their own." I guess you had to be there... But re the power and rage, unless you can learn how to channel your rage and anger into something constructive then you will feel powerless. And that also contributes to the generational nature of lots of abuse, not just sexual...

by **Joe Hillshoist** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 1:34 am

blanc <blockquote>Quote:<hr>I sometimes have trouble Joe, understanding the whole drift of your arguments,<hr></blockquote> nothing unusual there, so do I. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>The taboos which ra perps are breaking are of a different order to the taboos which re-inforce family structures in tribal regions, or in our own societies. In fact they are not, I think, really taboos as such, they are the elemental structures of our humanity, and as such have served all peoples for all times.<hr></blockquote> Yeah spot on. this is where i think the real crux of ritual abuse lies. Its about exerting unhuman power in the world. And stems from some feeling of inadequacy, some disconnection to all the real power we have at our disposal. Thats why it is often connected to "satanism". Cos again in the west satan is viewed by the cultural groupmind as the power in the world. Maybe not on the surface, but at an underlying kind of metalevel. probably goes back to that story about the devil tempting Jesus with power over every nation and city if he knealt down and worshipped him. To me there is a definite link between the concept of power over others, rulership, and abuse. A loop that will feedback on itself. It is an idea I struggle to articulate cos it seems so bloody obvious on some levels that speaking it is just irrelevant. The abuse of others is the exercise of ower. Make a religion or magic process out of that and you have something that you can use to maintain your power. Extend it... Goes back to the old thing about having power over yourself or others, like the poster i mentioned above. Ritual action and the existance of either evil critters from outside, or thought forms that are self created (here we go<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/eyes.gif ALT=":rolleyes"> ) provides a mechanism for the surrender of personal power in return for material power. That is what I think RA, especially in the context Biao is exploring, is primarily about. All that MK Ultra and associated stuff seems to me to stem from that basic idea. Its all about shoring up your power over others. It gets very specific in reference to the MK Ultra thing, but I personally think that is a small percentage of total ritual abuse.

by **havanagilla** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 1:56 am

hi bIao, I see your arguments now, its nothing I can disagree on, but actually its just on another plane altogether. world domination - that is to say, that since the fall of the USSR, the world has become practically dominated by a "one superpower" structure, namely, the USA. That's nothing I invented, its plain political science. This, i believe, is a novelty in terms of modern political science. Since some of us are young and never knew somehting else, I am reminding, that this might also be the basis of the "NWO" theme, namely, the fact that we have one superpower (one culture) dominating the entire globe. WHether this is good or bad, don't know, but its there. thus, in anthro departments the USA is referred to as "Empire", with the clear attempt to draw cultural conclusions. Do you have any doubt that this is true? I mean is there any one or cluster of countries/cultures who are even close to raising a ltitle challenge to the USA ? i will tell you, that NO, and this is common knowledge. Anthro- well, at least the kind of anthro I was exposed to (cultural anthropology, post colonial studies), explores governance and political systems as an independent subject. Namely, and I am taking it too far on purpose, not lumping in "incest" as an indigenous practice, with "incest in Intel communities as a method of governance" together, all under "ancient human practices". Naturally, everything we do is "anthropological human customs" for we are human and King Solomon mentioned wisely that in truth, there is nothing new under the sun. But then, ignoring the "uni-polar" dominance since cold war or calling is "NWO" stuff, is a bit bizarre, even on anthropology, I suppose. I have to be convinced with evidence and sources that the practices discovered in Ghana and etc., are similar to MK, in the deepers sense (not I-T only) but that these were projects encouraged and financed by their leadership as a method of governance (namely, as part of the leadership's methods to instil obedience and secure their position in the leadership of the tribe or what not). I sincerely, doubt that, but I really don't know enough about those discoveries. -- The other dinstinction I made, and which you ignore, is the introduction of I-T into the practice, and I said that IMHO it is not incidental but material difference. I don't know if the CIA has the copyright and monopoly over MK, but so far it looks like it.

by **biaothanatoi** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:28 am

Hey Joe, <blockquote>Quote:<hr>There's cultural stuff here that i am not so sure I am fully up to speed with.<hr></blockquote> James Noblitt (American psych) claims to have treated indigenous Australians who were ritually abused. There are allegations of ritual abuse in indigenous Australian communities - there was a massive gathering of women in the late 90s in Queensland over it. I've come across remember a few articles on a child murder from the early 90s, reports of people in robes at graveyards, etc. The mainstream press didn't pay much attention, although the mother of the dead child went on rampage through her home town in grief/frustration, smashing every window until she was locked up. More broadly - you might want to find a copy of Noblitt and Perskins's book on ritual abuse, which discusses the similarities between ritual abuse and some indigenous ritual practices overseas that appear to use trauma/dissociation to create shamans, altered internal states, possession states, etc. They make a compelling case. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>My understanding of indigenous culture is that child abuse was aabberation, tho not an unknown or rare one (just like western culture). But it was unacceptable. <hr></blockquote> Can't speak for Aboriginal communities, but I'd argue that, in Australia, when you've got sexual abuse prevalence figures of a fifth or a quarter of the population ... then sexual abuse isn't exactly an aberation. If we had prevalence figures like that for HIV or Hep C or another virus, we would have an epidemic.

by **biaothanatoi** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:40 am

Hi Hav, <blockquote>Quote:<hr>I see your arguments now, its nothing I can disagree on, but actually its just on another plane altogether.<hr></blockquote> Yeah, agreed. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Anthro- well, at least the kind of anthro I was exposed to (cultural anthropology, post colonial studies), explores governance and political systems as an independent subject. <hr></blockquote> Only cos formal notions of "governance" are a Western concept ... and most anthros are Western and they usually don't study their own society!But social theory treats "governance", "political systems" as culturally constructed. They didn't come from nowhere, they aren't just imposed down on us from above. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>But then, ignoring the "uni-polar" dominance since cold war or calling is "NWO" stuff, is a bit bizarre, even on anthropology, I suppose. <hr></blockquote> I still don't buy it. Athens in 7th century BC? Rome in 1st century AD? England in 17th century AD? Read the atrocities they all committed, the "secret" things they did. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>I have to be convinced with evidence and sources that the practices discovered in Ghana and etc., are similar to MK, in the deepers sense <hr></blockquote> My lens is RA, not MC - MC's not really a phrase I'm comfortable with - but I do know that social workers in London are struggling to work with trafficked women and children from Western Africa on the basis of their RA - that is, the prostituted women are too traumatised and frightened to work with the authorities. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>The other dinstinction I made, and which you ignore, is the introduction of I-T into the practice, and I said that IMHO it is not incidental but material difference. <hr></blockquote> I'm not ignoring the distinction, I just don't think that the incorporation of info tech into MK is a radical departure or particularly suprising. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>I don't know if the CIA has the copyright and monopoly over MK, but so far it looks like it.<hr></blockquote> I think Russia, China and North Korea have had their input as well! The original justification for MK in the States was that the Soviets were doing the same.

by **biaothanatoi** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:56 am

Joe said: <blockquote>Quote:<hr>It gets very specific in reference to the MK Ultra thing, but I personally think that is a small percentage of total ritual abuse<hr></blockquote> I have to agree. I personally think that it's likely that MK (or related projects) led to the development of a set of control techniques that have been widely disseminated in the global underground - but that's different to the notion that all RA or MC is somehow linked to the CIA. By coincidence, I'm reading Foucault at the moment, and there is a passage in Discipline and Punishment that struck me this morning. He's looking at torture throughout history, particularly it's use as a judicial tool in medieval Europe: "Moreover, this 'contempt' for the body is certainly related to a general attitude to death; and, in such an attitude, one can detect ... a demogrpahical, in a sense biological, situation: the ravages of disease and hunger, the periodic massacres of the epidemics, the formidible child mortality rate, the precariousness of the bio--economic balances - all this made death familiar and gaver rise to rituals intended to integrate it, to make it acceptable and to give a meaning to its permanent aggression." Here, he's saying that the complex rituals of public torture, at that time, were related to the proximity of death in everyday society - disease, famine, dead children were all around them. What if ritual abuse is the perpetrator's response to the 'bio-economics' of raping your own child, murdering them in snuff films, torturing them until near-death? In these groups, death is a part of their sexual economy. Maybe the rituals are about trying to come to grips with that? Maybe even an attempt to give new meaning to the lives that they are destroying? After all - if they don't impose their own "meaning" onto the victims then the perpetrators are left with the victims pain, their faces, their terror. The rituals overlay that, force a different identity on the victim, force the victim to "act out" that new identity. Maybe you just can't do these things - snuff films, sadistic paedophilia, etc - if you don't also commit ritual abuse?

by **blanc** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:12 am

computers, television, video images have made huge political and cultural changes (here I go stating the obvious again). In the context of r.a. and its political use by powerful interests, new media have moved abuse as an issue onto a different plane to ra practices in African societies and child abusive families. These media are essentially information distributing, and the 'new ' information is that anything goes if it gets you what you want - more than that, in its alliance to other power imagery, (consumerism, glamour etc) it receives the same gloss. At the same time, the most abusive practices are kept secret, behind a smokescreen of caring democracy, but leaked out through increasingly degrading pornography - which has to be accessed via choice, and with some difficulty and danger - so romanticing it, giving a vicarious sense of power to the mugs who buy it. I don't see parallels with tribal cultural practices in this, and think that a change in mental processes is being sought and to an extent acheived. The first level of manipulation of the mind was/is in the primary victims, but, via dissemination of imagery and apologia for abuse, and glorification of power in its most brutal expression, many more people are being more subtly changed. The brain is malleable, especially the developing brain. This line of argument becomes muddled because some part of the apologia for abuse uses 'this has always gone on its part of human nature'- muddying the waters to the benefit of perpetrators. The change in mental processes, were it to become general, and the cultural changes which this implies, IMO would create a world inhabited by beings who were not 'human', precisely because the changes undermine those cultural facilitators of the development of the human mind. it is useful to look at what exactly is new, as well as old habits.

by **Joe Hillshoist** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:34 am

Biao <blockquote>Quote:<hr>More broadly - you might want to find a copy of Noblitt and Perskins's book on ritual abuse, which discusses the similarities between ritual abuse and some indigenous ritual practices overseas that appear to use trauma/dissociation to create shamans, altered internal states, possession states, etc. They make a compelling case.<hr></blockquote> This makes a lot of sense. However it also raises some hard questions... Which i will leave to later. I said WAS an abberation, although I don't remember the EXACT meeting you are referrring to I have some memory of a few of those things. Hearing about them, not attending. The present situation is pretty appalling, and epidemic, but given the mixture of extreme poverty, hopelessness and excessive alchohol abuse its no wonder. Makes me think about your ref to Focault in that last post you made, the one that hasn't shown up underneath the reply box. The current response and black bashing is a crock BTW. these issues have been raised time and again by indigenous people, and nothing ever gets done in the way of effective action. Look the whole issue is a massive mess. Look at the response in that community in central Australia. All the funding is cut, how is that gonna alleviate anything. But given the numbers of people who are abused in white Australia, I would say that the epidemic crosses racial boundaries. And its a lot easier to place aboriginal people in the exotic category of the "other" and pretend thats where all the bad stuff happens. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>This line of argument becomes muddled because some part of the apologia for abuse uses 'this has always gone on its part of human nature'- muddying the waters to the benefit of perpetrators.<hr></blockquote> In ref to the indigenous situation I think the above quote hits some salient points. In Aust'n indigenous communities this situation is out of control, and has never been as bad as it is now, um well never until the last 50 years maybe. The idea of sex with kids, as opposed to a much younger consensual age than 18 (or 16), is an unacceptable thing in traditional indigenous communities as far as i understand it. Now I have never been back in time to a working Traditional Australian indigenous community, so i can't test the veracity of this... Biao I don't know much about ritual abuse in Australia, in your research did you ever come across evidence of it iassociated with Victorian Private Girls schools in the 1980s, or their personel?

by **havanagilla** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:46 am

Biao, I didn't say (god forbid and for the record too) that the USA is the worst regime. but Rome didn't rule the world (unless you wish to ignore most of it and refer to the small west plus the mid east as "the world"). The situation of the USA is without precedent, IMHO, first of all since the "global village" is new, AND the domination of one super power of that global village is very new, see you didn't even know its there, so new it is. The concept of Empire is relevant (ie Rome, or Athens in their respective little "globes") in the sense of one regional super power which dominates political imagination over their entire region. However, I am sure they knew, or thought there are other places, and I think some people always escaped or explored them, so you had "an outlet" (now, replaced by "space" or "aliens"). No precedent of the USA phenomenon, therefore the CIA is unique as well, in that it represents the ultimate power, because this is the "secret police" of the global police. And, sorry to say, it seems that the Sherif in this town has gone bad. -- As for MK, whether it was developed from german or soviet methods, is not important now, IMHO. It has reached new levels, and as I said, I think it has become a priority on the empirial agenda, and the domination of all countries allows for harvesting all local RA/MC methods, incorporating them and having immense power via this channel. (in that respect only the CIA has ALL the info from all places, organized under one roof, with one agenda). The examples you are giving from aboriginal in australia might very well (and I am not saying i know that) another such "seeding" or "researching by infesting" project, by you know who. So, you have a common marginal bad practice, becoming an asset and institutionalized. The rates of child abuse of up to 1/4th are not astounding given the stress of this population (as colonized, nearly extinct culture). Blanc, as usual you summarize and expound things in a way that makes me envy your logic and language skills.

by **Joe Hillshoist** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:03 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Maybe you just can't do these things - snuff films, sadistic paedophilia, etc - if you don't also commit ritual abuse?<hr></blockquote> I dunno about that. I think the look of terror on someone's face is the whole point. Thats the point where you become "more than human", cos you don't identify with the humanity of suffering. I get what you are saying, that people will walk away with nothing but the bitter taste of their own ugliness if they do not create some construct that justifies the ugliness in some extraordinary way. I think that makes a lot of sense, and perhaps is true for people who are compulsive about their behaviour. It reminds me of the South Park episode that featured an org called NAMBLA, the North American Man Boy Love Association. I think Cartman became their poster boy. That makes sense regarding the whole concept of internet paedophillia. Grooming and the like. Such as what seems to happen in that film Hard Candy. (Interetsing to see david Stratton squirm when they reviewed that film the other night.) But full on Kid Rape (violent events remember, no faux seduction or maintaining the bullshit illusion that they are "women" mentally), or snuff movies or anything like that. The only mentality I can envision engaging in such behaviour is one that literally couldn't care less about the other's feelings. Or wants the pain and suffering. Is actually after that. I can't accept that any amount of self delusion as to the consequences of your actions is present in events that involve rape torture and death. Except perhaps on a tiny level that allows someone to first enter that mindset. IE I am a religious zealot and inquisitor, and thats why I have this, fnar fnar, unfortunate responsibity to torture rape and burn you at the stake. I am really not doing this for my own pleasure, no really. And perhaps afterward. After the event, maybe, but only if they are scared of their power. (As any "normal" human should be scared of that power). But I have been in some serious fights that I have won, copped a beating or two as well, but in the bad old days we wanted our enemies to know pain. To feel fear and to feel trauma. To cross the road if they saw us coming down the street. To turn white and crap themselves if we knocked on their front door. Thats not something I am that proud of, but even now I remember that exhileration. That knowledge that people wouldn't mess with you and even hard bastards knew it wasn't worth the hassle. I think there is a similarity between drug gang violence and abuse. But its not the exact same thing. But exerting power means you are slightly safer. perhaps that is a crossover point.

by **havanagilla** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 6:30 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>special report: Australia Australia archive The land of the dead How did two tiny islands off Australia's north coast come to have the highest suicide rate in the world? Cathy Scott-Clark and Adrian Levy investigate Saturday June 24, 2006 The Guardian On April 11, Gordon Pilakui had girlfriend trouble. According to his family, the 24-year-old had been arguing with her since they got together. He was jealous. She didn't care. Their ability to make peace was skewed, his friends say, by too much beer and spliff. But no one expected Gordon Pilakui to die. April 11 was a Saturday night and they are always the most volatile in Nguiu, capital of the Tiwi Islands, twin full stops of sand and swamp 26 miles off the coast of Darwin, north Australia. The evening began at 4pm with three hours at the town's only social club, speed-drinking Victoria Bitter out of plastic skiffs. Afterwards, Gordon and his girlfriend took home a crate of Cascade beer. Then an improvised bong was sparked up in a bucket, and Gordon and his friends smoked until they entered a parallel world where most of the 2,500 islanders prefer to spend their time. <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/australia/story/0,,1803488,00.html#article_continue" target="top">Article continues</a> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- <hr></blockquote> A bit on the life of the aboriginals...

by **blanc** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 7:10 am

biao, the seeding of criminal groups as you express it in post 285, is, I think, spot on, but it flows both ways, so that now we don't have a separation btwn govt agencies and crime. Belgium is example par excellence. I don't think I can connect with the idea that ritual is used by perps to give back meaning to the life they are taking. It doesn't seem to square with such facts as we know. Its a seductive idea, because, deep within ourselves, we want to have the answers - why do people do such ghastly things. and in searching for answers the temptation is to bring these acts back into the human domain, to 'understand' the minds of the perps. But, actually, if we could go back in time, I think we'd be deciding that witchfinder general (for instance)was a man who first liked torturing women, then found a peg to hang that penchant for personal violence on, which gave him power as well, and guaranteed a flow of victims.

by jc » Fri Jul 14, 2006 9:46 am

blanc, biao, <blockquote>Quote:<hr>I don't think I can connect with the idea that ritual is used by perps to give back meaning to the life they are taking.<hr></blockquote> neither do i. it seems to me that the reason they ritualize is to sublimate their superiority: ritual as self aggrandizing theater, the whole caesar triumph march through rome thing. these scum consider themselves free of all inhibitions and as such approaching their concept of the divine, therefore, they garb their crimes in the accoutrements of trad power. it's a twisted royal prerogative cult ritual. they're sh*t however they dress it. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=jc@rigorousintuition>jc</A> at: 7/14/06 9:09 am

by **biaothanatoi** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 12:30 am

We have to consider that "cognitive dissonance" does affect sexual offender s - you see it in paedophilia all the time - offenders develop "belief systems" to try and get around the fact that they know what they are doing is wrong. It's one of the reasons that seasoned offenders are so hard to rehabilitate - they are deeply entrenched in a belief system that protects them from the knowledge of the pain they have caused. To try and look at it another way would mean submitting to the knowledge that they have caused tremendous harm. We can't just presume that RA perps are free from that threat of guilt/empathy because they are so spectacularly sadistic. The fact that their behaviour is so bizarre suggests that there is a weird psychological dynamic going on - and there is some kind of link between RA and hardcore illegal porn/prostitution/S&M. RA is more then just sadistic pleasure seeking ... why is it linked to such transgressive crimes?

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