Belgium

by **Joe Hillshoist** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:13 am

Good article hava. I had a friend from that way. Haven't seen him for a few years but he is a great person. And he's seen so much tragedy. I know this may touch a raw nerve with you but there is a similarity in the mentality of suicide bombers and those Tiwi youth and other young aboriginal men. I have done a bit of stuff re deaths in custody and even now it chokes me up. Not just the cases that are blue murder (ie cops killing people in custody, something that happens alot more than anyone would dare admit. Not just to blackfellas either.) and manslaughter. Lots of suicide tied up with shame (often promted by police taunting) and the idea of haunting. Indigenous culture has some real powerful taboos about place. they associate "evil spirits" with place, a kind of genus locii thing. It also involves feedback re intention. They seem to have a point too. But a sense of powerlessness and the nobility of death (an adolescent concept if ever there was one) and no real sense of future - its not like western culture offers any real meaning anymore. Its all a big mess. BTW re the marriage of young girls thing. Its not always a marriage for sexual reasons again. n that part of the world there are recorded (incl photos) stories of one guy with 300 wives. Seriously I cannot conceive a man coping with those sexual demands and actually doing anything else, and this guy was a famous warrior and controlled a targe territory. Its probable that not all his kids were his, but that he raised and taught them all... well the males. Its funny too, in the (not so) old days, after aboriginal people were granted the right to vote, on election day, often mysteriously there would arrive, in an obvious place between the poling booth and the communities, copious quantities of strong, free grog. Real funny.

by **blanc** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:39 am

Hmm its just that such a lot of them wear their cd on their sleeves.

by **Project Willow** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 5:32 am

Hope I don't veer too off topic, but all of these related issues are heavily on my mind of late... <blockquote>Quote:<hr>But exerting power means you are slightly safer. perhaps that is a crossover point.<hr></blockquote> I think this is where the desire to perpetrate is sourced. It's a miss-wiring of the survival instinct. James Gilligan described it very well, that perps can perceive slights as life threatening and so respond with violence. What do perps get out of it? It's such an important question. I think it's two things, they get power, like you said, and so safety, but also they get revenge. They get to inflict on others what was inflicted upon them. Although maybe that is a disticntion without a difference. I truly believe that some of them look at a victim and either see their own perpetrator or themselves when they were the victim. The behavior is based in powerlessness. I've never known a perp who wasn't a prior victim, or one who could get anywhere near his own pain, it's so intense. Their defence against their own pain is to disable their ability to empathize with themselves, and therefore others. Combined with the above, this drives them to perpetrate. However, it doesn't prevent them from knowing intellectually that what they are doing is wrong. It also doesn't prevent them from using their sense of victimization to lure in victims, or to manipulate empathetic responses in others. Baio, your supposition is impressive, but I also am not certain it holds. Though maybe there is a key there I cannot see. I think that the ritual aspect of ra actually intensifies the anguish of the victim. The manipulation involved means that the mind, and if you would believe the perps, even the soul of the victim are vanquished. It adds a whole other level of perpetration to torture and rape. But perhaps the group setting it requires helps with the rationalization problem. Placing the activity in a social context makes it more acceptable. It's strange, I grew up with perps, bonded to them because I had no choice, and please forgive this personal bit here. It wasn't until I was "free" (I put that in quotes, because it's not a state, but an ongoing process), when I finally got it that there are humans, all around us, who can present as quite normal on the surface, who are indeed completely incapable of real human compassion. They are incapable of putting themselves in the shoes of another person, and having it mean something, or affect their actions. I suppose knowing is not a state either, but an ongoing process. I really didn't, or perhaps couldn't, fully "get it" until just recently. So it's interesting to see the idea put forward that others might grapple with this but for different reasons.

by **havanagilla** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 6:02 am

Judith Miller points to the interesting lacunae in research of sadists, in the psychiatric/psychology field (possibly others as well, sociology, anthro etc.). She says this adds to the revictimization of victims of sadists, because they get labelled as "sick" rather than the perps. etc. Nazi doctors, the book, deals with perps' psychology quite impressively. He places it though, in the context of war, or war regimes. And I think this applies to the Nazi situation, but perhaps could extend. War situations in general, generate that same "lack of empathy" for "the other". I see a connection bn the situations, especially RA (certainly MK, which is part of the "war machine" or defense departments), which requires a "group", and then generates possibly very primale 'war dances', which included sacrifices, human sacrifice etc. Apocalypse now brings a snap shot into the anthro aspects and how the cultures overlap, during the war, namely, the modern world hooks up with the practices of tribal rituals. A small reminder from modern jewish sparta...war societies, have "rituals" which i would name "the sacrifice of conscience" (the rationalization, is that this sacrifice of one's conscience is required for the entire group, and even for the survival of the group conscience for the long run). warriors are "tested" for inhumanity, which symbolically would mean their ability to do the worse atrocities, "proving" they are made of steal, that includs losing the normal taboos, even vis a vis one's own relatives etc. -- recently, someone is constantly posting backtalks in haaretz.com, where he says "we sacrifice our conscience so you can practice yours". again and again and again. the concept of "sacrificing the conscience" seems to me pivotal in RA as well.

by **Joe Hillshoist** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 6:36 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>She says this adds to the revictimization of victims of sadists, because they get labelled as "sick" rather than the perps. etc. <hr></blockquote> I knew a girl from the US from Maryland,. and from a Naval Intelligence family. She lived in the town near or around the biowarfare centre, maybe called Fort deitrich. She said she had done some B D modellng and got into talking about the whole power by saying no this is too much and using codewords to stop people hurting you and stuff. It was bit much actually.<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/eyes.gif ALT=":rolleyes"> Fucking americans and their strange desire to de intimatise sex by talking about it in detail with everyone... Anyway I am sure people's bells are going "Naval intel, B D, " and "codewords": then I add that she was into crowley... She was only or under 20, at Uni in Aus on an exchange program. She stayed at out house for a while with her B/F I often wonder what weirdness she may have been exposed to. Anyway the idea behind B D, SM and all that is to surrender yourself, and you have ultimate power because you can say no even tho you are tied up and at the others mercy. Personally it sounds like bullshit to me. But then I am not into it so I wouldn't know...

by **havanagilla** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 6:52 am

Joe, I was not talking about sadists as in S&M, just "perps" in the context of SRA

by **Joe Hillshoist** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 7:27 am

Yeah, Hava I was just kind of thinking out loud. Your post just made me wonder about her. She had a weird energy. Very sexy, not in an overt way, just her nature i spose. not that we had a sexual relationship. I am married and take the fact that I actually made vows with my ancestors, family, friends and communtiy all present to honour those vows. So I take them seriously. But she stayed here during a particularly full on mushroom season, and had a few on more than one occasion. Sometimes people start wearing their inner nature like clothing when they are tripping. Thinking about it, her energy seemded healthy enough in this place, especially compared to others who have been here. She did however some from a US Naval Intel family, (she was a bit of a black sheep), and mentioned the codewords thing in a way that when I think back reminds me of the trigger mechanism referred to in MC. And the concept of legitimising surrender, esp in relation to cognitive dissonance and creating a worldview where such things as RA can be rationalised.

by **havanagilla** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 7:32 am

Joe, maryland alone suffices to raise suspicion of MC (bad place), naval intel...that's more likely and black sheep - you have it. Surrender - there were numerous very good threads on this board (wish I remembered their title) about the programming of surrender, in the MC business, and generally in the culture (bastardized versions of religious systems), and there was specific thread about this among the S&M whores community, how they are programmed to want to do that. Sorry for being so vague and lame, but perhaps others here can point you more accurately to those very very deep and disturbing discussions.

by **Joe Hillshoist** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 8:27 am

Seems like alot of the actual magical weirdness side of sra, and also the psychological spiritual warfare side of it involves perversion, as in the warping of something that is initially good. As in perverting the course of justice. Not perversion as in non traditional sex. Well provided its consensual. i couldn't care less what two, or more or less, people do for kicks, provided they don't hurt others, who haven't consented. Its basically none of my business. so I don't mean perversion as some stereotypical Jesus freak, who thinks any form of sex other than as quick as possible in the missionary position, with their eyes closed praying to God not to look at them. (Theres a funny thought praying to God NOT to notice?) I mean perversion as in taking something designed to cultivate whats best in humans and warping it to harm them. Surrender for example. Surrender to the will of God. To the universe. To some power for good outside yourself, thats probably good for the human ego. In moderation and directed right. probably its essential. Altered and dissassociative states. On their own they probably provide access to those aspects of reality that are Divine and sometimes not obvious all the time. As some song says "and I could go on and on and on.." Using sex itself. The very thing that a opens the door for life to enter the world brings great joy pleasure and selflessness (if done right). Bonds people who love each other and want to share their lives with each other. All those things have great magical/mystical/spiritual/Divine/pickyourownterm power. And they seem to have a role in making life as good as possible for as many people as possible, if that initial inspiration is not... perverted.

by **biaothanatoi** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 10:04 am

Hi Willow, <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Hope I don't veer too off topic, but all of these related issues are heavily on my mind of late...<hr></blockquote> Actually, that was a great post. Gave me a lot to think about. Thanks. B

by **blanc** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:56 am

its a pity that the institutionalised use of ra/mc and its cover-up have prevented study of perpetrators - so few get caught, tried, punished, offered therapy; so that we are left with personal anecdotes and hunches. I don't mean to discount what you say PW, but the idea of perpetrating extreme violence as a way of exteriorising own pain is not likely to provide more than part of the explanation IMO. It works as a thesis for generational abuse set-ups, but that leaves many other cases. We know that ability to empathise is a psychological trait which like others, intelligence, emotional stability etc is variable from person to person. My impression from a group whom I knew, was that they were as baffled by normal human response as we are by theirs. That they could not guess what a normal person would do, because they did not know. I wonder if perps are situated so far down the continuum towards no empathy, that watching people exhibit it is like watching a different species. I still think that there is free will, and that the acts they perform are of their will - and ritual and other rationalisations follow desire not the other way round. The dilemma for them, as non empathisers, must be that they can never have a real group, whereas the rest of humanity spontaneously groups. wouldn't you feel cheated permanently if others seemed to have an ability you could not imagine mustering? in their terms, empathy is an inferior trait, a sign of weakness, but perps in general are way too intelligent not to realise that they are as dependent on the capacities of the mass of people who can empathise for their survival. violence as compensation for inadequacy is where this ramble is going, violence which destroys those who most freely, innocently, exhibit empathising love - ie children every child who is trapped in an ra group and is intended to survive into adulthood gets the punishment for loving treatment. (put to befriending, then engineered to be 'responsible' for the awful things done to the little friend, by the impossible choice scenario or blunt trickery.)

by **LilyPatToo** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 2:07 pm

I don't think that any survivor of RA or MC should have to feel that they must apologize for sharing a related incident that they've experienced in a discussion like this one. But I see that happen all the time on message boards where these subjects are under discussion. It's as if there's an unspoken agreement to keep it in the dispassionate realm of intellect by citing sources in books and online articles or newspapers. I have a suspicion that it's a similar mechanism that tends to suppress survivors' stories in the greater world, too--not exactly the "snicker factor" or denial. but more a need to distance a horrific subject to make it bearable. While I can understand and empathize with that, it still makes me sad when a survivor shows up at an ongoing discussion and feels the need to apologize for adding their own individual, first-hand input. And it's why I've left two other boards recently. The published literature is extremely important and definitely should be a part of any discussion of RA or MC, but there's an odd bias against an actual survivor relating their own experiences. If, OTOH, our stories were written up by a researcher and published online, then they would eagerly be seized upon and thoroughly discussed. Just my observation, YMMV. LilyPat

by **havanagilla** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 2:42 pm

thank Lil, from the "specimen" who sometimes gets naughty and thus put in the corner, under the silent treatment of the grown ups. This is not only in RA/MC, usually invalids, victims are "investigated" but their voice is not considered material. We have to be very careful, put a nice smile, remain level headed, and oh...and speak very good english, or else ... -- also i've noticed how rigid people are, in that they can either percieve a person as "MC half derranged/guilty whore" or a professionl/person (artist, academic, etc.). People cannot understand that you are a human being, like them, with many aspects. Artist/survivors can pass, because they are known to be mad at times . But if you want to be an MC victim (or RA) and a PERSON as well, forget it. This is a great disincentive to speak up, people will never treat you the same as before. You are stigmatized forever.

by **blanc** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 2:46 pm

survivor testimony is paramount. all theories have to be held up to it to see if they check out.

by **Project Willow** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 3:24 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>but the idea of perpetrating extreme violence as a way of exteriorising own pain is not likely to provide more than part of the explanation IMO. It works as a thesis for generational abuse set-ups, but that leaves many other cases.<hr></blockquote> I've seen the process in other cases too, and outlined as a process with more "regular" types of violence and crime. Other factors I did not mention, it has been proposed that there is a genetic cause affecting the ability to empathize, and of course socialization, or learned behavior are contributing factors. Interesting point you make about the different groups. Cultural practices can differ widely in their catagorizations or accpetance of injurious behaviors, as Baio pointed out with his quote from Focoult, but I'm not certain that affects my thesis. It may be that survival circumstances reflected in cutlural practices respresent levels of generalized disfunction, rather than differential base empathetic capacities. Interesting question regardless. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>I still think that there is free will, and that the acts they perform are of their will - and ritual and other rationalisations follow desire not the other way round.<hr></blockquote> I agree with your last statement there. The intent of my post was to outline the source of the desire to perpetrate. My comment about ritual possibly aiding with rationalization was meant to be posited as more of an additional benefit of the activity, not its primary cause. About free will, most of us can make choices, we can use reason or cerebral function to override desire, but our genetic make up and life experience can limit those abilities as well. However, as a social policy, we cannot absolve people of responsibility for their actions, that would be disastrous. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>The dilemma for them, as non empathisers, must be that they can never have a real group, whereas the rest of humanity spontaneously groups. wouldn't you feel cheated permanently if others seemed to have an ability you could not imagine mustering? in their terms, empathy is an inferior trait, a sign of weakness,<hr></blockquote> Absolutely, the need for attachment and intimacy is normal, a need developed in social animals that is necessary for survival. I believe perps continue to desire it also at some base level. However the inability to be vulnerable or empathize, because it meant danger or abuse in the past, is, exactly as you stated, viewed as a weakness. This stance keeps perps in a constant state of fear and social disconnection and so ironically probably adds to their desire to perpetrate. It can become a self reinforcing cycle. LilyPat.. hello, and good to see you on the board. I am a survivor of ra/mc, and I've been posting here with various regularity for a long time. Sometimes we do get very personal, but you make a good point. I think I apologized this time because I have a serious need to speak about a recent experience, and I was wary about that seeping too much into this discussion. It really isn't the place for it. Although, I could always start new thread.

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