Paradise Lost - The Child Murders at Robin Hood Woods

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RE:

Postby Quentin Quire » Thu Jan 19, 2006 11:27 am

The posters here - me in included - have posted opinions and theories based not only on the documentary but also other information on the case.<br><br>I - personally - happen to agree with many of them. That's my opinion. You happen to disagree, that's fine. Let's debate and discuss it.<br><br>Your posts don't offer any proof to the contrary or offer an opposing opinion or facts that could lead to any constructive debate or discussion, just the statement that we are hypocrites who aren't able to form our own judgements apart from those we see in the media - which isn't the case. <br><br>Anything else to say which isn't egocentric sarcasm? Maybe some evidence and information from your own sources? Or are you quite happy to condemn others opinions without providing your own standpoint?<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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RE:

Postby Quentin Quire » Thu Jan 19, 2006 11:59 am

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I haven't seen any "facts of the case" in any of the posts in this thread.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Apart from --<br><br>'The children had bite marks. Shortly after hearing that the killer could be identified from these injuries, Byers had all his teeth pulled and was fitted with dentures.'<br><br>'dried blood on a knife that belonged to the stepfather.'<br><br>'Yep, Byer's wife died, but the coroner's report was never released, so the cause of her death remains "inconclusive."<br><br>Are these not facts? Or are they more evidence of naive posters being misled by media misrepresentation and false judgement calls? <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Reply

Postby callistobear » Thu Jan 19, 2006 2:03 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Your posts don't offer any proof to the contrary or offer an opposing opinion or facts that could lead to any constructive debate or discussion,<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>You are right!<br>/looks to see what Quentin just said: <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START 8o --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/nerd.gif ALT="8o"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br><br>Oh yes....<br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>As far as I can see no one has hauled him up in court on the basis of false confession and interrogation, found them guilty and placed them on death row. That's a 'modern day witch hunt'<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>False confession? Why do you think it's a false confession?<br>and to which one do you refer?<br><br>(BTW: Jessie's confession wasn't used in the E/B trial.)<br><br>And it's not "them" on death row, only Damien is on death row.<br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>just the statement that we are hypocrites who aren't able to form our own judgements apart from those we see in the media - which isn't the case. <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>ummmm.........you have read this thread? It's judgement formed on what they've seen in the media. That can't be much clearer surely?<br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Anything else to say which isn't egocentric sarcasm?<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>Sorry, hypocritical uninformed opinion tends to illicit that reaction in me...if you could just let me know why you believe Mark Byers is a "Prime suspect" based on factual evidence, I'll gladly discuss and debate with you.<br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Or are you quite happy to condemn others opinions without providing your own standpoint?<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>I think my standpoint is very clear?<br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Maybe some evidence and information from your own sources?<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>Bitemarks and Mark Byers:<br><br><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/rule37/ruling.html" target="top">callahan.8k.com/wm3/rule37/ruling.html</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>"Under this claim, the petitioner attempted to establish a "bite mark" on the face of one of the victims and argued that failure to recognize and develop evidence was incompetence on the part of petitioner's counsel Price and Davidson. Evidence is new only if it was not available at trial and could not have been discovered earlier through the exercise of reasonable diligence, Amrine v. Bowersox, 128 F.3d 1222, 1230 (8th Cir. 1997), cert. denied, 118 S.Ct. 1807 (1998 ) .<br><br>The "bite mark" evidence is not "new" because the marks were on the victim's face from the initial discovery of the bodies. <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Furthermore, the evidence is not reliable. The bulk of the testimony at the evidentiary hearing was that no bite mark could be identified to a reasonable degree of medical certainty.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br>The testimony of Doctors Peretti, Sturner, and Dugan, and that of Val Price and defendant's investigator, Ron Lax, established that there are not identifiable bite marks on the photographs of the bodies. Dr. Harry Mincer testified that the identification of bite marks is not an exact science. Dr. Mincer, president of the American Board of Forensic Odontology and an expert in the field of forensic odontology also concluded that the mark over the eye brow of Steve Branch was not a bite mark within a degree of reasonable medical certainty."</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br>From my sources.<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :rollin --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/roll.gif ALT=":rollin"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=callistobear>callistobear</A> at: 1/19/06 11:05 am<br></i>
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Thank you ...

Postby Quentin Quire » Thu Jan 19, 2006 3:12 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I think my standpoint is very clear?<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>It wasn't initially. You simply mocked the theories of 'hypocrites' without providing any of your own. You made no reference as to the guilt or innocence of the WM3, Byers or any other suspect or your personal view on the case.<br><br>Thank you for providing the link with the dental evidence. You are obviously informed about the case, perhaps more than previous posters and myself. That doesn't give the automatic right to toss aside others opinions with some sarcasm and smilies.<br><br>I don't just base my opinions on the documentaries but other reading. If you have more information and knowledge please share it. You seem very passionate about the case and informed. It's more productive to rebutt evidence and theories in a discussion than a flamewar.<br><br>I assume you believe in the guilt of the WM3 and the fact that Byers in unconnected to the killing. That's your right. Would you like to share your views with us?<br><br>I'm open minded and perhaps I - like others - have based opinions on information that is biased or plain wrong. Maybe you will change my mind.<br><br>I will now go and do some further research, as I've unable to do so whilst conducting this exchange at work. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Thank you ...

Postby callistobear » Thu Jan 19, 2006 8:17 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>You simply mocked the theories of 'hypocrites' without providing any of your own.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>My standpoint was implicit in my perfectly acceptable response to comments that were solely based on a biased media representation of a man:<br><br>"obvious loon, a liar"<br>"bat shit crazy psycho"<br><br>Pointing out that it really isn't acceptable to condemn the judgement of three killers and claim that their conviction was based on clothes, musical tastes and dress, whilst simultaneously judging and accusing someone based on a FILM is not "mocking". <br><br>There was enough mocking in the thread before I posted....<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :rolleyes --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/eyes.gif ALT=":rolleyes"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> Again, presumably that's acceptable? <br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>That doesn't give the automatic right to toss aside others opinions with some sarcasm and smilies.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>When that opinion has no basis in fact, consists of silly name-calling and quite serious allegations, then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.<br><br>The case documents, including autopsy reports, trial transcripts, photos, witness statements collected by the police etc are here:<br><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.callahan.8k.com/" target="top"><br>www.callahan.8k.com/</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br><br>There's alot there.<br><br>I'm fine if debate is reasonable; a teddybear. <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :p --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/tongue.gif ALT=":p"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=callistobear>callistobear</A> at: 1/19/06 5:20 pm<br></i>
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Alternate Opinions

Postby Project Willow » Fri Jan 20, 2006 4:14 am

I saw the HBO specials and in response formed the same opinions about Byers. BUT, knowing that HBO also produced the film which exonerated the McMartin accused, I figured the docs. were intended to produce those reactions. I have not studied the case further, and I'd like to hear differing theories, as well as a serious critique of the docs.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Alternate Opinions

Postby Sepka » Fri Jan 20, 2006 6:38 am

I have trouble seeing where Byers had enough time and privacy to commit the murders. Numerous witnesses saw the children alive and heading towards the woods at times estimated between 5:45 and 6:45pm. Most of the time estimates centre around 6:30pm. At 7:30pm, Byers reported his son missing to a police officer. His wife and other son were with him at that time, and they had apparently been searching for Christopher since shortly after 6:00pm, when Byers picked up his other son (Ryan) at the courthouse, then stopped by home to pick up his wife and Chris (who was of course missing). They'd planned to go out to eat.<br><br>IMHO the 5:45 sighting of the three boys heading into the woods is just mistaken, either as to time, or (less likely) as to who all was present. Other witnesses report seeing Chris' two friends Michael and Steve together at that time in the vicinity of the woods, but not Chris. One classmate (Alan Bailey) who knew them both spoke to them and learned that they were then on their way to get Chris. This happened pretty reliably at 5:45, as Alan was with his father, who was running late for an appointment, and had reason to be conscious of the exact time. Michael's mother saw the three of them together heading towards the woods at 6:00. Again, she had reason to be aware of the exact time as it was time for the family's dinner.<br><br>My personal guess is that the three boys entered the woods sometime between 6:15 and 6:30. That's the last time we know for a fact that they were alive. By that time Chris had already been missed, and Byers was searching for him. I think what must have happened is that Chris's friends met with him at 6:00pm, and they immediately headed toward the woods. Byers would have arrived home around 6:10pm, and just missed him.<br><br>If we posit that Byers murdered the boys that evening in a rage, then he'd have had to do it between 6:15-6:30 (when they were last seen) and 7:30 (when he talked to the police). If he did it in that timeframe, then his wife and other boy either lied about having been with him, or else were active accomplices. I could see his family covering for him if he had simply lost control of himself and beaten the boys to death, but it seems unlikely that they would do so for a crime of such savagery and horror. Even if he frightened them into silence at the time, there was plenty of opportunity later to talk to the police.<br><br>From 7:30 until 9:00 or so, Byers was constantly in the company of one or more third-party witnesses, often policemen. Between 9:00 and 9:42, he searched the woods by himself. <br><br>At about 9:00 his son and a friend who were out searching reported hearing "big splashes" from the large drainage ditch. They became frightened and ran away. The running away seems a curious reaction to me. Both boys were 14, old enough to understand that the little boys' safety, if not lives, might hinge on their actions. So far as anyone could have known at that point, the boys were only missing, and there was no evidence of foul play. I'm left to wonder why they didn't take the splashes as possibly being from the missing boys at play.<br><br>Interestingly, this ditch where the splashes were heard is where the bicycles were found the next afternoon.<br><br>While fleeing, they met two more friends. Fortified with extra numbers, they then returned to the woods and searched it until 10:00 or so, apparently unaware that Byers was in there as well. They didn't see Byers, nor does he report having seen them.<br><br>Let's assume for the sake of argument that the splashes represented the murderer(s) disposing of the bicycles. That opens the door to several scenaria:<br><br>1. The boys had been killed in the woods, their bodies were already in the stream. The murderer threw the bicycles in the ditch as he left the scene of the crime. This seems to me to be the most likely explanation.<br><br>2. At least two of the boys were still alive in the woods (IIRC only Michael was dead when he was thrown into the water - the other two drowned) but the murderer thought it important to dispose of the bicycles before they attracted attention. This seems terribly unlikely to me, unless there was more than one killer. Additionally, the two final killings would have had to happen in the woods after 9:00, when search parties were wandering all over.<br><br>3. The boys were lying dead up in the woods, already in the stream. Byers threw the bicycles into the ditch as he entered the woods to tidy up the crime scene. This presupposes though that he had killed the boys earlier, and for reasons given above, I doubt that.<br><br>At 9:42, a police officer searching the woods met up with Byers, and they searched together until 10:10. From then on until 2:00am, he wasn't alone for more than a few minutes at a time. <br><br>He was alone between 2:00am and 5:00am, when the search resumed. Interestingly, the medical examiner placed the time of death at between 1:00am and 5:00am. If Byers killed the boys in that timeframe, it's highly unlikely that the murders could have taken place in the woods. He'd have had to kill them somewhere else, and transport the bodies and bikes there, at considerable risk to himself. Again, it's possible, but it would be a suicidal risk. He'd already alerted the police department and spent much of the evening trying to spur them on to a more intensive effort. Additionally, he'd pointed out the woods as a known resort of the boys, as had the other parents.<br><br>For all those reasons, I have trouble accepting Byers as the killer. <br><br>-Sepka the Space Weasel <p></p><i></i>
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