Quantum Physics in Action

by **Joe Hillshoist** » Mon Jul 03, 2006 12:01 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Repeated serious trauma can and does damage the brain's functioning, saying the victim when in a seriously ill state should take all responsibility for themselves is like telling a man with a c3 spinal lesion he should buck up and walk.<hr></blockquote> not quite IMO. Maybe they are alike, but not quite. But I am some bum in the bush no ex spurt on trauma. But it seems to me that spinal trauma holds the prospect of no neural connection between brain and muscles. Maybe stem cells will save us, but until then thats a pretty unequivocal limit to place on what someone's capable of. It hardly applies to the brain, which has enormous healing capabilities, and the soul, which has even more. And having seen the difference between actual brain lesions, and childhood trauma on behaviour, I think its even less valid a thing to say. I agree with your general premise, that an abuse victim may be unable to take responsibility for themselves, but to me its a question of how to encourage then to begin to take responsibilty to its fullest extent. Its a very dangerous thing to think someone may not have the ability to deal with something they can deal with. And can actually inhibit them more than is necessary. The consequences of this can be nasty. EDit -> I guess I don't buy the "some charge" thing. Until a person decides to heal themselves then I have nothing to do with what they are doing. Its not my place to make that decision or force it on someone. They have to come there themselves. Forcing someone to do something they are not ready to do is a bit sus in my opinion. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=joehillshoist>Joe Hillshoist</A> at: 7/3/06 10:21 am

by **Joe Hillshoist** » Mon Jul 03, 2006 12:14 pm

back to quant um The media: On the news If there's one thing that I can't explain Is why the world has to have so much pain With all the ways of communicating We can't get in touch with who we're hating So turn on turn on turn on the news I hear it every day on the radio Somebody shoots a guy he don't even know Airplanes falling out of the sky A baby is born and another one dies Highways fill with refugees Doctors finding out about disease With all this uptight pushing and shoving That keeps us away from who we're loving Husker Du, from Zen Arcade The question about how bad things happen to people if all you have to do is think positive thoughts is simplistic in the extreme. Its the state of the mind not the stuff in it. You can think positive all you like, if you are running around in a state of low grade emergency waiting for the door to be kicked in, or the terrorists to nuke your kids school you attract stuff to you that fucks with you. And all the positive thought in the world won't stop it.Its not what you think but how you live and what you expect from the world that determines what you get from it. Often there are simple physical feedback loops that cause problems, without even touching the quantum implications. self fulfilling prophecies, not in some mystical sense, but in a very simple basic real one. Like racism, thinking anything sus about one racial group will put you on edge in their presence. They will sense this, probably get defensive about it, and reinforce your previously held notions of difference. The psychic consequences are immense.

by **4911** » Mon Jul 03, 2006 12:16 pm

um Dreams end, that one was niether. That one was just pure abstract speculation. You seem to be itching to misunderstand me in order to get some pent up frustration out with which I have nothing to do. I would suggest a coloring book and some big blunt crayons for you, this thread is abstract on a scale beyond your emotional capacity, it would seem. By the way, DE...go away. Blanc, go find a witch to burn - It aint me babe, nonono it meee your lookin for babe... Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=4911>4911</A> at: 7/3/06 10:37 am

by **4911** » Mon Jul 03, 2006 12:39 pm

"I hope you don't think I was saying that, far from it. " Captain Hillhoist, no I know you werent saying that. Thanks again for clarifying my statement before the Rigorous Inquisition.

by **blanc** » Mon Jul 03, 2006 12:59 pm

Joe, where I live non assistance to a person in danger is a criminal offence. It doesn't need to be IMO for someone to respond to absolute need. severe repeated trauma can lead to life threatening incidents. some of my worst memories and deepest anxieties (and DE has written about this too ) have been in the area of intervention, e.g.should I ? should I have? now? wait? how? did it help? could I have done better? but nevertheless, a person who has gone so deep into psychotic state that they can not take any rest, do not take fluids etc and, differently, a person who has gone so deep into a depressive state that suicide is imminent - can't be left hanging around, waiting for a miracle, in the shape of enough realisation that they need help, or enough concentration to look up available healing resources and work out how to fund them, get there etc. so lets stop being daft about this can we? some means some not all. Yes I know the c3 analogy was imperfect - there isn't anything exactly like what I've seen except what a whole lot of other people in the same situation have seen. I just meant, the brain is an organ. it can malfunction, and it doesn't always get better all by itself.

by **Dreams End** » Mon Jul 03, 2006 1:35 pm

There's also a lot of research coming out showing that trauma actually affects the brain physically and, in fact, traumatic memories are stored in a different way from regular memories. And we all understand that body and mind are connected so very real physical changes can result as well. That, in turn, can lead to diminished functioning. Sometimes my wife didn't know where she was or who she was. Sometimes alter parts of her take on self destructive actions. I've had to call the police before to keep her from slitting her own throat...even as she herself struggled to contain the other part of herself attempting to hurt her. She has no control over that, but ultimately she does have to be the one to be in charge of her own healing. Sometimes being in charge of your own healing means accepting help, however. Sorry 4911, you dug a hole...and you'll have to lie in it. I'd advise you, if by some twist of fate, you should meet my wife or someone like her, that you not suggest she take responsiblity for being raped at age 4. She has spent 35 years "accepting" her responsibility for that...and as she finally learns to STOP blaming herself and put that anger and grief where it belongs, on the perpetrator, she is finding some healing. She has stopped turning that anger inward. And if you meet family members of people killed in some fast food massacre, I'd suggest you use the same caution when "speculating". Obviously, you can't understand why such "speculation" would be offensive to some who've suffered trauma or have loved ones who have. The fact that you can't understand that suggests that it was probably not wise to have responded to it in the first place.

by **4911** » Mon Jul 03, 2006 2:41 pm

Hm, sorry DE, you simply arent listening to what Im saying and the hole you want me in is in your mind, probably due to your experience with your wife that you are very obviously venting on me. Ive been on the recieving end of alter parts of loved ones' destructive actions and dont need to take shit from you. If exploring the big picture through abstract speculation amounts to an offense to you, thats your problem not mine. My loved ones trauma was ultimately brought about by her own actions, yet Im not advocating she take responsibility for the actions of her perpetrator, simply for the action that caused the perpetrator to go nuts on her, otherwise it might happen again and again in many different forms from many different people. Thats my worry, if you wanna know. How does that compare to a McDonalds massacre? It doesnt, the two have nothing to do with one another. This conversation takes quite alot of twists as it unfolds. It is necessary to differentiate alot more than is being done. I have a feeling that you are happy to mash it all into one ball and call me an asshole. If it makes you feel better, well, go ahead, but it has no basis in reality. We started out talking about quantum physics as related to the mind. Abstract. Now were talking about the closest darkest problems of our loved ones. Personal. The road from one to the other was filled with monuments & landmarks that we did not inspect, and now we are comparing abstract ideas to personal experiences.

by **Dreams End** » Mon Jul 03, 2006 3:04 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>yet Im not advocating she take responsibility for the actions of her perpetrator, simply for the action that caused the perpetrator to go nuts on her,<hr></blockquote> Amazing. Please get this person some professional help. That kind of advice is going to end up ruining her life.

by **blanc** » Mon Jul 03, 2006 4:18 pm

I second that DE, in spadeloads

by **4911** » Mon Jul 03, 2006 6:32 pm

i didnt press this responsibility crap on her, dont worry - that was something i did for myself. what you can tell me is what you would do. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=4911>4911</A> at: 7/4/06 3:26 am

by **LilyPatToo** » Mon Jul 03, 2006 7:14 pm

What a strange thread this is....and how varied are the ways that people's thinking has been warped by the various control mechanisms being imposed upon society by the PTB. From manipulative New Age crap that tells people that they create their reality on a quantum level to more openly judgemental Fundie ravings about guilt and sin and salvation, there is no segment of society spared, is there? The truth is that when people are abused from early childhood, they do NOT need to hear about how they brought it upon themselves. In many other situations, it may be constructive to accept blame, but not in that one. Then it only serves to make them more passive and to let their abusers off the hook yet again. I've been looking into NLP and it's promoters and some are intelligence operatives with high profiles (ie. obvious disinformation agents). That tells me that it no doubt has some valid information behind it, but it almost certainly also is a control program for those more educated folks who reject conventional religion and have become bored with the standard New-Age-rhymes-with-sewage fare. That doesn't mean that some of its practitioners aren't sincerely trying to help people, but it does (or should) send up warning flags when its tenets are cited. LilyPat

by **slimmouse** » Mon Jul 03, 2006 7:16 pm

When I came onto this board originally, it seemed like a fun, open place. Genuine people, who never seemed to have a problem discussing anything. Suddenly, a cloud appeared on the horizon. As if that shouldnt actually be expected. But of course, from that point onwards this board went downhill. Of course , its still well worth visiting. When did you join DE ? How about your experiences on here ? For me this board has gone badly downhill. I cite this thread as a specific example. I agreed with a comment by 4911, without articulating why, because ( as is my wont ) I idiotically believed that people understood where I was coming from. More the fool me, and rightly so I guess. I was attacked, and I suppose understandably so, for my inarticulacy. Nonetheless, despite not one, but two apologies, along with a more articulate explanation of what I meant, I got nothing but venomous contempt. I See that venomous contempt in action every day. In fact it runs the world. And people expect justice ?

by **4911** » Mon Jul 03, 2006 7:26 pm

because DE has some experience with this apparently. By the way DE if your gonna attack me with comments that dont further the issue, you can fuck off into the blackest hole in hell...if you genuinely wanna help well Ive thrown you a morsel of the problem. Ill tell you more if i see it makes sense to. If your so bent on world peace then get this: It starts in places like this. It starts with me, you, your wife....people you meet every day on this blog and in your life. Starts with love. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=4911>4911</A> at: 7/3/06 5:27 pm

by **Dreams End** » Mon Jul 03, 2006 8:06 pm

4911 I can't say much about your friend...except what people always tell me...you have to take care of yourself first and not let her suck you in so that you lose yourself AND are no good for helping her either. I think it is a good thing to make a commitment to help someone, but this may be way over your head...would be way over mine. I stay with my wife because I now understand her situation and condition. It has a decent prognosis...a clear course of treatment, and there is a role I can play in her life that is helfpul. She has committed to this treatment and in other ways shows me that she is choosing to live and to get better. Maybe I'm the only one who can tell sometimes, but I see it. On the other hand, if she makes coming at me with a knife a regular habit...I'd have to move out. And I WOULD call the cops on her again and I WOULD report her to social services if I thought she were abusing her daughter. couple specific comments: <blockquote>Quote:<hr> i supported her financially through all this and still do, you would not believe the abuse shes hurled at me for doing things for her<hr></blockquote> Oh...yes I would. Been there for sure. In Debbie's case, she had built up a huge defense of "I can handle anything on my own" and also of not trusting others who claim just to want to help. Pretty common, but that doesn't make it easy. I remember once before she had her main "break down" and I was trying to help her hang some plastic over some windows or something for winter. She almost bit my head off. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>plus you DE & Blanc, probably think Im a complete asshole because i happen to have a large capacity for abstract thinking <hr></blockquote> okay...truce. Though the cautions about how this type of "abstract thought" might affect a trauma victim still stand...and in big red letters. Overall, your friend really sounds like maybe "borderline personality disorder" or something along those lines. Definitely a result of abuse, it sounds like. If she won't do therapy, then all that crap gets projected onto those close to her. If she will go to therapy, she can put that onto the therapist, who, if skilled, can begin to help her. Needless to say, your role with her now is not healthy for either of you. I have also found interestingly enough that protecting my own boundaries has been helpful for debbie as well. If your friend is indeed "bpd" then this is pretty common. The smallest slight might get blown way out of proportion. One little failure on her part would be evidence that she is worthless. Very black and white thinking patterns. bpd and dissociative identity disorder can look similar, so that's also a possibility. another "bpd": bipolar disorder is possible. Schizophrenia too...without professional help it will be really hard to sort out. Someone posted recently that contrary to established thinking, even schizophrenia might have some relation to childhood abuse. You say she was diagnosed "psychopathic". that doesn't sound like a diagnosis to me. It's not, for example, something you'll find in the dsm-iv which is the guidebook for psych diagnoses. Anyway, it doesn't fit what you've said so far...a "psychopath" is a smooth, manipulative operator with no conscience at all. She sounds "manipulative" but not like a psychopath. If you happen to remember what meds she was on, that would at least tell us what some doctor somewhere THOUGHT was going on. Did the medication help, despite her decision not to take it anymore? for now, I'd get YOURSELF into therapy to make sure you are making decisions that are healthy and not based in some dysfunctional needs of your own. yeah, I hate hearing that said to me as well, but an outside voice can be very helpful for discerning such things. (I do see a therapist myself.) Since you suggest you have also been a victim of an abusive childhood that would be a real priority I think. You asked what I would do and that would be the VERY first thing. I know it seems paradoxical, and even ironic given the previous discussion...but as the cliche goes...you can't be around to put the oxygen mask on those around you if you haven't put your own on first. Ultimately she DOES have to take responsibility for her healing. Not for the abuse. If she is schizophrenic and frequently delusional, that may be impossible without professional help. It's sad to say but there are times which we are powerless. There are periods when I come home literally not knowing if my wife will be alive or will finally have given up. (Not too frequent, these days, happy to say.) Facing our own powerlessness in these situations is actually the hardest thing sometimes. That's another good reason for a therapist on your side. Now...I heartily endorse any and all attempts to visualize her in a safer and happier place or placing "protective energy" around her...and yourself as well.

by **4911** » Mon Jul 03, 2006 8:54 pm

okay man, 100 points on the truce. I think yeah she was abused by her family her whole life. I dont know for sure if that includes sexual abuse, shes jewish living in germany, so that means she got her fair share of BS from the locals as well. (The older ones are often still closet nazis) I may be the first person she ever met to say "here:fly!" to her and give her the wings to do it. Shes taking her father to court - hearings beginning of next month. Ah whatever, Im tired, just had a weissbier, and Im going to bed its like 2:00 am here. c ya Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=4911>4911</A> at: 7/4/06 3:27 am

Quantum Physics in Action

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some and some

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help her

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why waste your time ?

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