Non-Human Evil, specifically

by **thrulookingglass** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 10:48 am

1- Why haven't they conquered us already? They need something (whatever the hell that is) from us or our planet and the many different species here. It is possible too that they require our collusion. Don't have much to add on the other questions. As far as evidence, many have called this "the biggest secret ever kept by mankind", that ought to tell you something. One thought I had was that they are here not for what we are, but for what we might become (in the future). Why should you be afraid? Well I'm not sure fear will help you any in this circumstance, but here's on reason: It would seem the government knows a hell of a lot more than we do about these "things". That's scary.

by **Dreams End** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 10:53 am

Couple of quick responses...I'm kinda agnostic on this First, much of what gets published on THIS site could also be explained as humans being the ones to initiate contact and making the assumptions (probably dangerous if any of this is true) that WE can control them. Jeff has shown a picture of the "entity" called up by Crowley. Maybe Crowley was just making stuff up...but that little guy looks a lot like the 'greys'. Secondly, to try to interpret the intentions of an intelligence that is either clever enough to travel here by space ship or from some other dimension using our rather earthbound logic is problematic. If you read abduction accounts for example...ALL of them...there's jut WAAAAAY too much weirdness to be explained by the "they are harvesting our DNA" idea. Check out "Passport to Magonia" by Vallee. he was a UFO believer in the "hardware" hypothesis but started looking deeper and found so many odd incidents that make no "logical sense" that he revised his thinking toward...well, that's another post but it's fascinating. He then ties in these "contactee experiences" with folklore over many generations. As for proof? If I had proof, I'd be writing a book...not posting here! But there is a lot of suggestive evidence if you are actually interested. Best recent book by a "nuts and bolts" UFO guy is "UFO's and the national security state." Lots of military declassified reports in that one.

by **rapt** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 11:59 am

Hey I tried pretty hard to be polite last night Homeless. Sorry I didn't present an incontravertible proof, but somehow I don't think you are willing to listen to any argument, no matter how well presented. So why did you ask then?

by **dbeach** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 12:21 pm

Rapt "U DA MAN"! How is anybody supposed to believe this stuff?? another subject that incites the emotions rather than the intellect. be nice to have a non-combustible thread about this alien /govt connections Til then its surfin up to and through the Apocalypse!

by **BlueCherub** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 1:57 pm

That's how I feel too Dreams End and it's a good way of putting it. To HH: How can any of us rule out anything? There is so much of this world that we just don't know! I say keep an open mind. Busting peoples chops over believing in Aliens or not just strikes me as unfair and pointless and sort of like challenging someones religion or lack of religion. As long as people aren't twisting your arm to believe something like the fundie christians do-UGH-than why not just go with the flow because what difference does it really make in your life if you don't believe any of it in the first place?

by **Qutb** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 3:13 pm

"Busting peoples chops over believing in Aliens or not just strikes me as unfair and pointless and sort of like challenging someones religion or lack of religion" Sure, and I won't bust anyone's chops over it, but it's interesting that you compare it to religious belief, because to me this belief in aliens does resemble a nascent religion. One of the functions religion serves in a society is to provide mythical explanations for the origin of evil, which is exactly what this belief in evil extraterrestrials or ultraterrestrials influencing human bahaviour does. Like DE, I'm basically agnostic, but I have to agree with Halo that there is very little factual basis for this belief, and busting people's chops over pointing this out strikes me as unfair, as well. I have become convinced that UFOs represent a real and unexplained phenomenon, and there seems to be a link between this phenomenon and the experiences people interpret as "abductions". But that's as far as the evidence goes here. Everything else is just speculation. Personally, I don't need that hypothesis to explain human evil. Qutb means "axis," "pole," "the center," which contains the periphery or is present in it. The qutb is a spiritual being, or function, which can reside in a human being or several human beings or a moment. It is the elusive mystery of how the divine gets delegated into the manifest world and obviously cannot be defined.

by **Homeless Halo** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 3:33 pm

My reasons for asking have more to do with my curiousity over the subject than with my skepticism towards it. I disagree that something like this could be true and have no evidence. It becomes entirely different from most of the things that are discussed here regularly. I should make some things somewhat more clear. I certainly believe that "Aliens" of some sort do exist, somewhere. This belief is based on statistical odds. Specifically the odds that the universe it empty, except for us, which are infinitesimal. I didn't doubt I'd offend people and/or obstruct progress on other topics with this thread. I noticed no one was talking about it, just assuming one way or the other. I was curious why. Now I know why it isn't talked about here, at least. I agree that UFOs are something. I've seen them myself. What I haven't seen is evidence that the government knows anything more than that they exist for certain. I think a lot of the "literature" on Aliens is either pure speculation or disinformation. I think they want you to think they know more than they do. (Seriously, do the Bush family seem like they're getting help from superintelligences? Really?) I mean, smart people don't make deals with governments, why would super smart aliens? I think the reasons for the government denial of knowledge would not require collusion with the ETs of whatever sort. Just the knowledge that the "other" exists would be devastating to the Status Quo. Crowley's LAM, btw, was a "praeterhuman intelligence", that is, he believed it was one of the Ascended Masters commonly found in Occult Literature. As a Thelemite, I'm sure I could tell you more about Crowley's connections to the UFO phenomenon than most people know. However, LAM, is NOT a Grey. He is specifically mentioned by Crow on several occassions as being a "former/post human entity" with a past, here, on earth. Although I've noticed a troubling lack of information on Crowley and Thelema here as well, even in Jeff's blogs (although not Jeff's words, merely the things he doesn't mention/ perhaps doesn't know), so this doesn't suprise me. And as for ruling out Aliens, I've done no such thing, but I don't assume the existence of them because of eyewitness testimony. I've personally experienced the problems that reliance on EWT can create, in court. I'm not saying those of you that say you saw aliens are lying, but I am saying that your testimony isn't good enough for me. Mostly because I don't know you, and have no way to assess your actual mental state. Not to mention the fact that you may have seen something that merely looked like aliens... What I am seeking is some sort of Rationale for believing exclusively in this kind of control. I find it amusing that my critique of "Reptoids" is being compared to religion bashing. I cannot aruge with this comparison. What I don't understand is why that is a bad thing? Aren't you all here because you don't believe what they tell you? Is it so weird that I should seek that people validate their claims about aliens preparing to harvest mankind as cattle? And as for not understanding the motives of Aliens as an excuse for not providing evidence of their existence, I can only say that if they can speak our language then they can communicate their thoughts in human terms. There is no such thing as "earthbound" logic as a thing to itself. Logic is a function of mathematics at its base, and should be entirely universal in its abilities to describe/explain mental states. They should be able to explain themselves as well as we can explain ourselves. I'm just trying to understand the logic behind this belief system. I've changed my mind and accepted many of the ideas I've encountered which initially seemed strange to me, based on a reassessment of the existing evidence (and usually a lack of such for the accepted explanation(s)). I'd imagine that it is entirely possible that given probable cause I could shift my views on this subject as well. My biggest problem, and one I've noted earlier is that I cannot think of anything a type 2 civilization would require from a type 0 civilization. We're not in their league, so why should they play against us? It couldn't be resources, whether genetic, mineral, etc...because our race will be beyond requiring these things long before we attain interstellar travel. It couldn't be our planet itself, because "terraforming" is already being seriously considered by several government as an alternative to "population control" and is well within our abilities now. (so why couldn't "they" just live on Mars as we will inside of the next 200 years?) My second biggest problem isn't a logical one, it is simply the lack of evidence for this phenomena. It isn't like UFOs or oddly paranormal things (RV, etc), or government ritual cults, all of which have more than ample evidence to convince nearly anyone who looks at it for very long. But I've spent most of my life reading books about UFOs and Aliens and I haven't found anything to convince me that there are DARK ALIEN OVERLORDS ruling the world behind their Black Lodge Initiates. It just doesn't ring true for me. I guess what I'm asking for is why I should believe in several layers of conspiracy, when there is only evidence for the top layer, that is, for men who do bad things to other people?

by **proldic** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 3:59 pm

I have to say that I'm a believer... a believer in the people, that is. I believe in listening very closely and taking very seriously the accounts of the eyewitnesses. I've just known too many 100% credible non-religious or new-age people in my life who described to me these sightings and strange experiences, close friends and acquaintances who are the "types" prone to simply making this stuff up in their minds or being influenced to do so. I lived in an area that experienced a rash of very heavy activity in the mid-'80's, and I saw with my own eyes the local newspapers and tv news filled with accounts from people including cops, bankers, and professors. However, what strikes me about this, and what I guess I'm currently ascribing to the real "alien abduction psychology", is hardcore denial -- i.e.: the most frightening truth -- that is the terrestrial explanation. 99% of UFO people, and 99% of the grass-root discussions about this instantly default to an extra-terrestrial explanantion, and never seem to be able to get their hands around the idea that it's our govt. that is capable of this. Personally, I find it disconcerting that the idea that most people de facto assume that the technology that they're told about is pretty much absolutely where it's at, and that's it, end of discussion. I mean, they envision advanced terrestrial technology to a point, but when it gets to bending the "laws" of flight or physics, then that's got to be some some other civilization, or at least, they gave it to us. Like the pyramids. Is that just us full of ourselves? Is it the biggest of conspiracies that says that it's our own government -- unassisted by aliens --- who utilizes this advanced technology, projects imagery, dresses up in costumes, cross dimensions, create mutants in test tubes, etc., etc.? For human experimentation (i.e., Aushwitz is closed), mass political psych-war (i.e., crop circles, 3rd world mass sightings), mass-destabilization. Full-spectrum dominance.

by **Dreams End** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 4:05 pm

You are right for the most part, I think, about most UFO literature being speculative. In fact, it is worse than that. Back in the days when UFO study was "respectable" and high level scientists and military officers sat on the boards of organizations such as NICAP a decision was made by the CIA to officially debunk all UFO cases and to infiltrate and take over these organizations. This is well known and supported by government documents. Their official reason for this was fear of the Soviets using UFO concerns to panic the US and somehow use this panic to launch a strike. Whatever the real reasons, the fact that the CIA got in the UFO debunking business is simply without question. I think that it is fairly demonstrable that the government is covering up what it does know...what is not clear is exactly what that knowledge entails. For example, the book I cited, UFO's and the National Security State, <a href="http://keyholepublishing.com/">keyholepublishing.com/</a> relies on government documents primarily to make its case. And keep in mind, these are the ones that got DECLASSIFIED. The case is rather compelling. It's not just Farmer Bob seeing a light after his nighly moonshine...it's visual/radar sightings and pursuit by military planes. Another book that does the same thing is Timothy Good's "Above Top Secret", which came out years previously. It also relies on government documents. I don't care for Good's other books as he doesn't seem to exercise much skepticism at all, but that one is a classic. If you happen to get the English re-release, Beyond Top Secret, you will notice my name in the acknowledgments (for a small bit of research I contributed). I will leave as an exercise to the reader to discover which of those people I am! From that point on, however, the picture gets murky fast. We know there has been disinformation...sometimes merely to misdirect from the truth when people spot experimental military aircraft. Sometimes there's a darker agenda that is unclear to me. Jacques Vallee wrote a book describing several sophisticated hoaxes that tracked back to government players. He didn't have a definitive motive, but thought that such ideas might be used at some future date to justify some kind of authoritarian takeover. Even more darkly, there have been a lot of connections between various UFO groups, particularly contactee groups, and overt fascists. The best example of this might be George Adamski, a contactee (with an alien from Venus...unlikely in the extreme) who was a member of the American Silver Shirts...a fascist organization. As for extradimensional intelligences that aren't alien...well, I guess crowley called one up, so as a Thelemite, I guess you do actually believe in these. However, for an interesting look into the various occult underpinnings of US history, you might try Peter Levanda's book, Sinister Forces (first of a planned trilogy.) Despite the title, the tone is more exploratory than condemnatory, though he ultimate will conclude (from what it appears) that there are real forces at work here..maybe not malevolent except in the way an earthquake or hurricane is malevolent, but that there are those seeking to awaken these forces. Whatever one's opinion on that, he makes a good case that all KINDS of occult organization have been tied into the power structure. That in mind, there are connections among the occult and the UFO worlds and with the intelligence community to both. What that means and how much of what they do has any real effect...I have no idea.

by **Homeless Halo** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 4:14 pm

In New Mexico, as a child, in the eighties, I saw my first UFO at age 6. I've seen twenty or thirty probably since then. Military technology is, based on rather conservative efforts, generally 20-30 years beyond the most sophisticated technology known to the public(which itself is usually declassified military technology), so I don't have any issues with the military being capable of doing all of the things we blame on aliens. _____ This is not to say that we may not have received help, but that the evidence seems to indicate that this is not so. Take, for example, the single best known case of a UFO, Roswell, which has been critically examined quite expertly by the Sci Fi channel, among others and shown to have FACTS attached to it. (my favorite is computer enhancement of the document held by said general during a certain infamous "weather balloon" press conference) What this indicates as most likely, is that real physical aliens exist and that we shot down some of their stuff in order to get advancements in technology. It doesn't seem like they have a "deal" with us. If they did, you'd think our spy planes would have grown in scope since the sudden jump they took in the late fifties, but this is not the case. I was born on an AFB in Alaska, my father did SatCom until I was a teenager. I've seen UFOs, but from what I've seen, they appear to be spying on us, not working with us. I know what I saw were not standard aircraft. I can tell jets apart by sound, like many people in my current neighborhood (detroit suburbs) can do with cars. These were not Jets, that much is clear, what is also clear is that they do not land and have lunch with our soldiers. There is no reason to assume that our government is incapable of anything, given the standard differences between accepted technological limits and what they actually have. Cloning, Mutants, Extradimensional travel, mind control, etc are all well within our abilities, and exist today in Theory or practice (and most of them as both, even higher dimensions. see the new particle accellerator which should answer that question for physicists) The normal financial and energy barriers which limit standard research is non-existant in government black studies. With an unlimited budget, I'm pretty sure I could make a flying saucer. So why shouldn't "they" be able to?

by **dbeach** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 4:18 pm

PRO . Would you kindly clarify this statement?? "a believer in the people, that is. I believe in listening very closely and taking very seriously the accounts of the eyewitnesses. I've just known too many 100% credible non-religious or new-age people in my life who described to me these sightings and strange experiences, close friends and acquaintances who are the "types" prone to simply making this stuff up in their minds or being influenced to do so. '

by **john darmy** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 4:19 pm

dbeach, I want to get your opinion on sleep paralysis. There was a period of time in my life, I think when I was about 17 years old, when I wrestled with this strange phenomenon. It was like the twilight zone between sleep and consciousness. Just as I started to drift off to sleep, I would be overcome by this terrifying feeling of being unable to move and unable to wake up. Since that brief period in my life, which probably lasted less than a month, I have not experienced sleep paralysis again. I know there are scientific explanations for this phenomenon, but I have also heard some people believe the cause is aliens or demons or some type of spirit attempting to take control of your soul. What if it was an attempt by aliens to take over my soul, but it didn't work? I have read that some people's souls are too strong to be co-opted in this way. Right after these episodes, my life started to be sabotaged in various ways. And later in my life, people who I thought were my friends, including my wife, started betraying me in various ways. When I started thinking about all the strange things that happened over the years, I couldn't figure out the connection between all these people. Then it occurred to me, what if they all are connected by their allegiance to the Reptilians or some other alien race? I know it sounds far out, but I think there is a lot of evidence that we all have alien DNA. I believe aliens mated with Earth women or tinkered with our DNA a long time ago to speed up the evolutionary process. And if it's true that Reptilians or some other alien race are manipulating the masses, they sure as hell don't want regular folks like us to know about it. That explains all the hysteria about aliens. A lot of it is disinformation. If you believe aliens exist, you're ridiculed by mainstream society. Time and time again, we have seen this pattern with various conspiracy theories. We even have seen CIA documents that instruct their media "assets" to ridicule critics of the Warren Report and try to paint them as greedy people who are trying to make money off gullible people. So if Lee Harvey Oswald was the lone assassin, and it's such a sure thing, why does the CIA have to attack and ridicule anyone who questions that conclusion? Whenever someone starts claiming there is no evidence of aliens, I refer them to Jim Marrs' wonderful book, "Alien Agenda." You can probably find it in your local library, and it's packed with evidence that aliens exist and have manipulated mankind for centuries.

by **proldic** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 4:21 pm

Oops, correction, I missed the important "NOT" part. It should read: "a believer in the people, that is. I believe in listening very closely and taking very seriously the accounts of the eyewitnesses. I've just known too many 100% credible non-religious or NON-new-age people in my life who described to me these sightings and strange experiences, close friends and acquaintances who are NOT the "types" prone to simply making this stuff up in their minds or being influenced to do so. '

by **Homeless Halo** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 4:31 pm

I've read marrs, but I like "rule by secrecy" better. It does a better job with less speculation. Of course, Marrs isn't particularly compelling in his case for aliens, that is, he merely mentions that they have existed in folklore and mythologies for our entire history. And that the biblical YAHWEH was originally the "bad" alien in the Sumerian myths. (YHWH doesn't seem smart enough to be a super intelligence to me, he seems ficticious) He isn't alone in making this case. There is much more evidence, albeit indirect, to indicate past involvment with ETs than there is for current involvement. However, these people all fail to mention that Sumerian Myths generally conclude with us defeating the aliens in a huge battle, armed with spears, and that they're dead now. I have a hard time believing in advanced species that can be beaten by primitives in war. (for example, any city's police swat team--or a Navy SEAL-- could easily handle the entire sumerian army as it existed in myth, so how can these creatures blackmail and control the american government?) Marrs, like most ET researchers who focus on religious history, only cite the myths that support their thesis while ignoring any that might make them suspicious. And Texe Marrs is scary.

by **Dreams End** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 4:39 pm

no...that explanation doesn't work. These sightings have been around WAAAAY too long. That's not to say that many sightings today are government craft, but military documents from the fifties...MILITARY documents, mind...that the craft were beyond the capability of the military. The excessive G's, the tight turns, stopping in air on a dime...reported back in the fifties. You can take the phenomenon back further historically but maybe not with the same level of documentation. A case that might be for the "it's the government" hypothesis is the black triangles...first observed in Belgium in 89. Seen both to hover and also to flee the aircraft at more than double the max speed of the f-16's scrambled after them. I think they hit like 15,000 mph on the radar. There's a picture of one (or a fake...I don't know, but it fits the description) on this very page in the background image. This could be military craft, though they forgot to tell the Belgian military about their flyovers. But the craft in the 40's 50's and 60's...I don't think this makes sense. Another interesting hypothesis, rather apart from the hardware of UFO's is that "abduction" experiences are actually government mind control. There's an unpublished book called "the controllers" which might be around on the internet with this thesis. Nothing more than abduction and hypnosis with perhaps some drugs thrown in would be required for such activities. In that regard, I have come to dislike Bud Hopkins as I think he's too credulous and got taken by the whole Linda napolitano affair...but that's just an opinion.

Non-Human Evil, specifically

Re: some thoughts on the "visitors"

Re: somewhat tangential:

ETs...or not?

Re: ETs...or not?

Re: I'm kind of agnostic on this

Re: I'm kind of agnostic on this

I was asking

on the UFO topic,

Re: I was asking

ghosh.

Re: I was asking

Re: ETs...or not?

is this what's unclear?

Jim Marrs

our own government?

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