Consciousness - on the edge of quantum and classic world ?

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Re: Consciousness - on the edge of quantum and classic world

Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:28 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Given that consciousness is invisible to all known means of scientific measurement-–unlike all other kinds of physical phenomena-–<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>? Saying consciousness is invisible is like saying that wind is invisible.<br><br>There's nothing BUT physical evidence of consciousness. This post for instance.<br><br>High-density electro-chemical integration of sensory stimuli IS consciousness. <br><br>What is this definition leaving out? <br>(Besides Fox TV viewers. rimshot.) <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Consciousness - on the edge of quantum and classic world

Postby monster » Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:04 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>High-density electro-chemical integration of sensory stimuli IS consciousness.<br><br>What is this definition leaving out? <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->It's unclear what electrochemical reactions <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>per se</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> have to do with consciousness. I'm taking an organic chemistry lab right now, and consciousness isn't created in the reactions in my test tubes. <br><br>I'm not saying they're unrelated, of course. I just think the relationship is that chemistry is the <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>means</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> of consciousness, not the origin or totality of consciousness. To use an overused metaphor, it's like mistaking the map for the terrain, IMO. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Consciousness - on the edge of quantum and classic world

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:52 pm

Hugh wind is invisible, you don't see it, you see its effects on the surrounding world.<br><br>Wind is the movement of air, which is invisible to the human eye, the only time you see stuff in the air is when that stuff is added to it. But air is a physical thing, it has mass. Does consciousness?<br><br>Although there is evidence of consciousness in the physical world, its the sort of evidence that is not measureable....<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Given that consciousness is invisible to all known means of scientific measurement.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>That quote isn't saying consciousness is invisible. Buit if it is measureable, tell what is the unit for measurement of consciousness?<br><br>Better yet:<br><br>What is consciousness?<br><br>Is it awareness?<br><br>If so then who is to say there isn't consciousness driving the reactions in those test tubes monster, the chemicals become aware that there is the potential for a reaction so they create the reaction.<br><br>Its impossible to ever tell if this is the case.<br><br>Complexity of consciousness is what we have, we are aware that we have options and that there can be lots of factors affecting what drives our decision making.<br><br>But a chemical may have a very simple form of consciousness, one that sits there and when certain factors make it aware that its appropriate to react the chemical does.<br><br>Or not, to me it seems something that is so difficult to begin to measure thats its almost irrelevant. Not quite tho.<br><br>Is it more than awareness.<br><br>Perhaps its less.<br><br>Perhaps its a boundary point between the perceiver and perceived, an interface - the base point where measurement is made from, in which case measuring it would almost be impossible. Or just pointless.<br><br>Science always fails at the limits of measurement. Its just the way it is, being so dependant on it.<br><br>And consciousness, despite its obvious existance, is more ephemeral than string theory. <p></p><i></i>
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