Richard Dawkins: universe too weird to understand

by **Rigorous Intuition** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 8:28 am

Universe 'too queer' to grasp BBC Scientist Professor Richard Dawkins has opened a global conference of big thinkers warning that our Universe may be just "too queer" to understand. Professor Dawkins, the renowned Selfish Gene author from Oxford University, said we were living in a "middle world" reality that we have created. ... Professor Dawkins' opening talk, in a session called Meme Power, explored the ways in which humans invent their own realities to make sense of the infinitely complex worlds they are in; worlds made more complex by ideas such as quantum physics which is beyond most human understanding. "Are there things about the Universe that will be forever beyond our grasp, in principle, ungraspable in any mind, however superior?" he asked. "Successive generations have come to terms with the increasing queerness of the Universe." Each species, in fact, has a different "reality". They work with different "software" to make them feel comfortable, he suggested. Because different species live in different models of the world, there was a discomfiting variety of real worlds, he suggested. "Middle world is like the narrow range of the electromagnetic spectrum that we see," he said. "Middle world is the narrow range of reality that we judge to be normal as opposed to the queerness that we judge to be very small or very large." <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4676751.stm" target="top">news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4676751.stm</a>

by **toscaveritas** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 8:59 am

thanks for this post, RI! I've been quite intrigued by this very issue, and have been doing some reading on this. Just finished a book about Ancient Toltec Wisdom, which basically concludes the same theme only with the variation, that each person even creates their own reality (they use the term 'dream') and that we do have the power to change our dreams (realities). Another book explains, that we are limited into the 'middle world' by our senses. Lots of points coming together, pointing to the same thing. Ironic to me is, that I found these ideas in a variety of areas : new age, spiritual, ancient knowledge, even David Icke books, and now even scientists! Very cool! thank you again from a curious spirit... tosca

by **slimmouse** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 12:30 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I've been quite intrigued by this very issue, and have been doing some reading on this. Just finished a book about Ancient Toltec Wisdom, which basically concludes the same theme only with the variation, that each person even creates their own reality (they use the term 'dream') and that we do have the power to change our dreams (realities). Another book explains, that we are limited into the 'middle world' by our senses<hr></blockquote> We are all trapped in our particular senses range by our "software." - Aint that the truth. Even when I used to sit calling my dog "crazy" as he sat, eyes transfixed barking angrily/ defensively at "nothing" in the corner, I never even gave this any reasonable analysis. Hell, I couldnt even hide my frustration at him courtesy of my "omnipotent" view of the "real world" ! Being trapped in our own "frequency" - Something id never even given even half a serious thought to until I came here, or had read Icke, or some of the excellent postings on here - such one I remember by Professor Pan on DMT, amongst others. Thus, it is courtesy of this kind of thinking ( even movies like what the bleep) , and not the sanitised pop culture TV, that such realities become far better perceived by those receptive to them - and those strong enough to withstand the cries of "madman" from the Sheep, as they subconsciously fullfill the duties of the system , in an often innocent, but nonetheless dangerously restricting attempt return to you to the "real world" Bring it on is what I say. Kinda makes you wonder sometimes, if there is an agenda behind any of this. This stifled, here and now reality type conformism, which is jammed down our throats by the MMS, and TV in particular - which in itself of course is a well recognised form of hypnosis by "them"

by **dontneedaname** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 2:09 pm

a humble thank you. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/tired.gif ALT="|I">

by **professorpan** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 2:22 pm

One problem with the CYOR (Create Your Own Reality) hypothesis is that it can get very solipsistic and can be harmful if taken to its extreme. For instance, try telling the parents of a child diagnosed with a rare cancer that the child created that reality for himself. If you do that, you'd better run. Fast. I have seen someone say that to the parents of a child with a rare blood cancer. And we've heard how the Bush Cabal believes that it creates reality -- and it appears, in many ways, that they've been very successful. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality-based_community">en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rea..._community</a> I remain a proud member of the surreality-based community.

by **slimmouse** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 2:56 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>One problem with the CYOR (Create Your Own Reality) hypothesis is that it can get very solipsistic and can be harmful if taken to its extreme.<hr></blockquote> Perhaps it might be useful to define a CYOR - particularly in the light of your example regarding the youngster with cancer. Should this be a reference to an individual CYOR or a collective one ? One of my closest friends daughters ( and my God-daughter) recently lost her life in a battle against cancer. She was the most fantastic child you could ever imagine. To the best of my knowledge she NEVER had a bad word, or a bitchy remark, or unkind word for anyone. I never once saw her being either selfish, or spiteful, or envious, or a thousand and one of our other collective failings. She was an incredible person - A shining light - The kind that many of us can only aspire to be - and she never once complained to the best of my knowledge throughout the length of her entire suffering. Essentially, she was in fact the very paradigm of the kind of person who the world of Bush and Co - which is currently the dominant mentality of world we live in today - appears to want to snuff out. The world that encourages and rewards liars, greed, self serving bigots, Satanists, murderers and all the rest of it. That which scorns honesty, integrity, and the collective progression of mankind, and the further development of the human spirit for the forces of good. Just a few musings on an incredible person, which may or may not relate to the bigger argument. Quite probably not, but who can truly say ? It certainly wouldnt be beyond the bounds of reasonable logic, when we understand the reality of the numbers who follow the "official" Bush and co version of reality today. Meanwhile, I go for the collective Create your own reality interpretation personally. Strongly ! Perhaps that should therefore read Create Our own reality <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)"> Much work to be done. "Has anybody here seen my old friend Martin, Lord, can you tell me, where hes gone, He freed a lot of people, but they say the good die young I just looked around and he was gone" - Abraham, Martin, and John - Marvin Gaye. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p097.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=slimmouse@rigorousintuition>slimmouse</A> at: 7/13/05 2:43 pm

by **antiaristo** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 4:03 pm

Starman, Where are you when we need you?

by **DireStrike** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 3:45 pm

I like to understand pop-culture as a sort of meta-conscious action taken by the almost-organism of humanity. The only way a coherent humanity-as-organism can exist is if most or all of its components are thinking and doing the same thing. The human brain can only hold a handful of thoughts at any given time, and humanity's mind is no different, though it is much vaster and more complex. When you think about politics, what is the ultimate goal in your mind? I will guess that it is a utilitarian driven goal: to achieve the greatest good for the greatest number; to improve Humanity in general. What is the difference between a human organism and the organism of humanity? Different people are specialized for different tasks. We like to think we are autonomous, unlike cells of a body. But would you sacrifice yourself to save a dozen people? Your country? "The world"? Distance, you say? Neurons don't touch each other. They communicate with neurotransmitters. We communicate with electricity. Each member of the organism invokes changes in others without ever touching them. What does this mean for individual humans? I doubt you can imagine being a cell in a body, but you can imagine being the body. Do you care when your cells get hurt, or die? Do you play sports, or exercise? You are sacrificing your own cells for abstract enjoyment. To keep your muscles strong, and reflexes sharp. Is this war? How many humanity-organisms are there? One for each culture? Cells generally don't kill each other in the same organism. Why is that? Multicellular organisms have evolved methods of controlling all their cells, pacifying them so that their own interest is secondary to that of the body. With every foray into drugs, public policy, and psychic manipulation, evolution has another stab at producing a superorganism. The New World Order could be trying to get us to that point, where the cells of humanity only have to worry about cancers and other diseases. Where the conditions of our lives and deaths are secondary to the function we provide for society. Where the thought of harming another human would be as alien as it would be for your blood cells to consume one another like fish in the ocean. A noble goal? A frightening one? Certainly none of us will mind when it has already happened. I can't help but wonder, when all of humanity is united as a single organism: who will there be to play against? Edited by: <A HREF=http://p097.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=direstrike>DireStrike</A> at: 7/14/05 1:50 pm

by **slimmouse** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 6:18 pm

Thanks for your post. I get the personal impression of youre post as having an over riding Straussian theme to this - kinda like the end justifies the means - only supersized. Which is all well and good if ; a) We assume that a better state of affairs will be the end product. b) There isnt a better and far faster way to get there Im not at all sure about the first. As for the second, Im almost completely unconvinced. Creating this superhuman living here and now multi organism strikes me also of having a distinctly Darwinian nature to it, and an intensely laboured one at that. I say this, since even if we were to assume that the end result truly is reduced to our worrying about disease or illness, im pretty certain that the culture of lies, greed, deciept , ritual abuse and warmongering currently and unquestionably being cultivated is something which is akin to taking 40 steps back in order to achieve 41 foreward. I mean ive heard of the saying "that which doesnt kill you makes you stronger" - But really !<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/eek.gif ALT=":eek"> That may be the NWOs Idea of progress but it strikes me personally as taking 40 back to take 20 foreward - and thats if we're lucky. It furthermore almost suggests that we are simply pawns in all of this - Almost as if our thoughts dont have a say. And speaking of the very process of thought, one of the major problems I see in all of this, is that caught as we are in the Global Corporate hurly burly that requires the majority of peoples time and efforts just to survive, we are being denied any serious thinking time, or the neccesary avenues ( other than places like this for instance) to contemplate the real nature of consciousness in this life. I dont want our collective consciousness to go backwards - not to mention the lives of the individuals in the here and now- not on my watch <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)"> Edited by: <A HREF=http://p097.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=slimmouse@rigorousintuition>slimmouse</A> at: 7/14/05 4:43 pm

by **DireStrike** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:14 pm

Oh, I'm not saying it's a good thing at all. I'm unconvinced as to whether it would be good for anyone. After all, you CAN fool some of the people all the time. And if there is only one big person...

by **Bismillah** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:48 pm

"...caught as we are in the Global Corporate hurly burly that requires the majority of peoples time and efforts just to survive, we are being denied any serious thinking time, or the necessary avenues ( other than places like this for instance) to contemplate the real nature of consciousness in this life." slimmouse, this may interest you if you don't know it already: Bob Black's great essay, "The Abolition of Work": <a href="http://www.zpub.com/notes/black-work.html">www.zpub.com/notes/black-work.html</a>

by **dontneedaname** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 8:03 pm

slimmouse said: And speaking of the very process of thought, one of the major problems I see in all of this, is that caught as we are in the Global Corporate hurly burly that requires the majority of peoples time and efforts just to survive, we are being denied any serious thinking time, or the neccesary avenues ( other than places like this for instance) to contemplate the real nature of consciousness in this life. Amen to that, brother! It seems to be intended that way for the all important "control". If we think too much, we discover what is wrong with the world, and our lives, and who is causing it....and have a paradime switch, and do something about it. A simple basic concept, that those trying to maintain this reality, that THEY are creating for us, totally understands. And of couse, most of us here understand too. And those powers don't EVEN want to see that happen! Hence, organized religion, society at large, patriotism all are being used to control. But only if we give our permission, are they sucessful. I am no great scholar or what-have-you... but I do believe I can make a difference in my life, and not be stuck in some kind of freakish reality that the powers that be, want me to buy into. Love this dialogue happening toward a greater understanding of the universe in a different way than I'd ever know! And our own personal universe, for lack of a better word, within ourselves, and our own GREAT POWER!!.....slightly empowering! Creating our own reality, and how our emotions drive our thoughts and perceptions. If enough people created positive energy..... would it change things?? I know when I was growing up.... the world that I lived in had a LOT less negative energy flowing through it. What was Einstein's quote? Imagination is more important than knowledge? I know that is not correct, but maybe some kind-hearted reader can add the correct quote to this discussion.<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)"> I believe that we are reality producing machines, and if quantum physics, is the physics of possibilities.... I'm in!!!

by **dontneedaname** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 8:23 pm

Just a quick thought.... what if our collective consciousness took a big leap leap sometime soon?! I heard David Icke in an interview mention that something like 4 or so people invented the raido all in the same week. I know I've thought about how cultures have developed along the same lines, at the same times, throughout history. So, if we can escape the reality that "they" try to create for us, and spread some positive emotions to ourselves and others, maybe as a society, we can make a leap of change. Tall order.... all I have to do is walk out my door and I'll see what a challange it is....BUT, if my mind is in a good place, I guess it won't be affecting me as much, or maybe not at all! We can only hope. see ya

by **mercator** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 8:45 pm

caught as we are in the Global Corporate hurly burly that requires the majority of peoples time and efforts just to survive, we are being denied any serious thinking time Yeah, but there's been no lack of serious philosophers who've devoted their lives to it. The literature is out there. The different intellectual standpoints have been mapped out in enormous detail. (And Dawkins, brilliant evolutionary biologist though he is, isn't in the running on this one.) Wage slavery is a serious problem. The division of labor, as such, isn't. No matter what kind of economic arrangements we had, only a small percentage of people would have the minds, the dedication, or even the desire to understand philosophical matters in more than a superficial way, just as only a small percentage of people would have a chance of being the next Poincare, Curie, Dostoyevsky, Bach, etc.

by **slimmouse** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 12:03 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>only a small percentage of people would have the minds, the dedication, or even the desire to understand philosophical matters in more than a superficial way, just as only a small percentage of people would have a chance of being the next Poincare, Curie, Dostoyevsky, Bach, etc.<hr></blockquote> Well yes, as it stands today I might readily agree. But wouldnt you say that this is the product of the values drummed into us, all supposedly in the name of "progress", which might in many ways be considered the actual opposite ? " Burger" news and TV, hard work and in particular "the other" What if people were actually exposed to these philosophical matters and content with a least a reasonable degree of regularity, but much more importantly, with widely tolerated imagination and genuine perspective, instead of What I have recently come to recognise as the greatest con trick of all - "The other" Do you not think that people would not at least "switch on" just a little bit more ? Could we not find ways to present such mysteries as to the true nature of our existence and the whole question of thought and consciousness more interestingly and stimulatingly than the way they are right now. What if they were actually encouraged to think about this for themselves instead of being offered some highly dubious rigorously structured text, with a specific label attatched ? Hey, how about a choice ?Would that not encourage us to think more ? I suggest it would . But somewhere along the line, THE single greatest control orientated, thought depriving, divided and rule conspiracy on earth today - organised religion did all that for us ! It solved all the mysteries of human consciousness in one foul swoop. Now, we dont even NEED to think about that any more, cos its all taken care of for us. We can get busy working, and being good free people lol. You see, theres a guy with a beard, and a guy with horns, and if youre a "good" guy ( as defined by "Us" ) you get the fella with the beard, and if you arent (again as defined by us) you get the bad stuff . Dont even THINK about that. Just Trust us No need to even think seriously about how to get closer to the light or think about the true nature of that. We'll tell you how God works - depending on your global zip code. Nothing more at all to think about really folks. Move along, and dont forget to give generously - you dont want the bad guy after all do you ? Well of course not, but do I really need a preacher to tell me whether Im doing right or wrong ? Can I not that one out for myself ? Can I not explore the concept of thought, divine omnipotence, and how this works with the minimum of control ? In fact, Cant we all ? Apparently not. And whats more, if you dont take it as we present it, youre barred !! But thats not the worst of it. We end up with yet more dumbed down conformists who then flock together and hunt in packs. Each of their Controllers muscling in on anothers territory, with their own franchise - We have the christians, Jews, Muslims, Catholics, Protestants, Mormons, Jesuits, Sunni, Shia Druze, Jehovahs witnesses, mormons et cetera et cetera - rather like Ice cream - Same cone different flavours - and about which we have subsequently, thru recent centuries blown each other up in Spades. Not to mention the barbarism of today. Talk about hijacking our very souls ! I think we might all be offered the cone, in fact I would suggest that we would all find the cone, and eventually work out for ourselves that, whichever way you scoop it, everyone actually ends up with the same flavour I still believe in an omnipotent force/ forces. I actually cant make sense of anything in my own mind if I dont. I just try and look at the whole concept from what appears to me at least to be a more logical viewpoint. In fact if anything it has strengthened my faith, since I feel liberated from the company elevator with 2 storeys dependant upon which company building youre in. When the time comes, Ill be taking the stairs. Shouldnt we all ? The teachings of all the great prophets should of course be a guiding light and inspiration to all of us. Its all the small print not to even mention the actual authenticity of the documents that gives me cause for concern. I personally smell and can indeed see, the very big controlling rats in the whole organised religion deal. Funnily enough its usually the same bloodlines too. I only wish Id figured it out sooner in life than I did. Its the ultimate control business - of mind, body and soul. Its more divide and rule. The very antithesis of what it should really be about. The views expressed above do represent the opinions of the broadcaster, but its only free thinking little old me , and there is absolutely no offence intended <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/tired.gif ALT="|I">

Richard Dawkins: universe too weird to understand

Richard Dawkins: universe too weird to understand

universe

Go there !

too weird

Re: too weird

Collective reality.

Re: Richard Dawkins: universe too weird to understand

Re: Richard Dawkins: universe too weird to understand

Re: Richard Dawkins: universe too weird to understand

Re: Richard Dawkins: universe too weird to understand

to slimmouse

I agree

another thought

Re: Richard Dawkins

Re: Richard Dawkins

Who is online