Nostradamus: Elites Allow Widespread Legalization By 2010

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Nostradamus: Elites Allow Widespread Legalization By 2010

Postby proldic » Tue Sep 20, 2005 2:31 pm

The city of Hartford, CT <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>and the Aetna Insurance Foundation</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> present a ground-breaking conference considering de-prioritization, de-criminalization, legalization, and medicalization:<br> <br>Illicit Drugs - Burden & Policy<br>Aug 21-22, 2005 Maher Hall Trinity College, Hartford, CT<br><br>"....organized to bring law enforcement groups, state agencies, city and state representatives, and national experts with creative talent,<br>To Meet the Problem Head-On... <br><br>The outcome of the conference should provide...'next step' conclusions, on-going discussions, and a community of advocates for possible policy changes that will make a real difference in people's lives." <br><br>Agenda:<br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.hartford.gov/drugconference/IllicitDrug_cal.pdf">www.hartford.gov/drugconf...ug_cal.pdf</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>Home
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specific nostradamus prophecy at hand?

Postby glubglubglub » Tue Sep 20, 2005 4:59 pm

Insurance companies have probably done the math -- legalize the softer drugs and they'll have fewer takers for antidepressants, etc., which from the insurance point of view are all ongoing, often expensive (between the pills + the associated therapy, visits to prescribers, etc.,)..Not that your premiums would go down as a result, but it'd reduce some of the demand for expensive services.<br><br>I'd be curious to see the Nostradamus quote. <p></p><i></i>
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I was joking

Postby proldic » Tue Sep 20, 2005 5:06 pm

about Nostradamus. Although I'm sure I could interpret one of his lines to do so, if you like.<br> <br>Did you know that the President of Progressive Insurance has given millions of dollars to the drug legalization movement for over 6 years now?<br><br>I don't believe that the insurance companies are doing this for simply economic reasons. I've said the same thing about Soros. <p></p><i></i>
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I hope you're right re: the legalization efforts

Postby glubglublugb » Tue Sep 20, 2005 5:12 pm

As I shall be greatly upset to die before they've been legalized. That said, the relationship between the insurance companies and pharmaceutical makers is pretty complex, but on legalization their interests basically diverge entirely; even if they have other motivations this is one front where the economic motivations are sufficient.<br><br>If I get time I might 'find' that Nostradamus prophecy -- I'm sure it's in there somewhere. <p></p><i></i>
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question for you

Postby proldic » Tue Sep 20, 2005 6:24 pm

How would you respond to evidence that big Pharma is actually working together w/ the insurance co's on this issue, funding the illicit-drug "medicalization" movement, specifically a "grass-roots" "Heroin Maintenance" movement? How does <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>that</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> comport to your view? <br><br>The path is: deprioritization > decriminalization > deregulation > legalization > medicalization > pharmaceuticalization > somatization<br> <br> <br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: question for you

Postby RollickHooper » Tue Sep 20, 2005 7:11 pm

I always liked what Germaine Greer said, 'way back when: she said she hoped marijuana would never be legalized because if it were they would immediately put a tax on it, and the taxes would support the war in Vietnam.<br>It sounds so tragically naive now, though, if you accept that the government has been trafficking in cocaine and heroin for ages.<br>It sounds like the decision, once again, is out of our hands and will be decided by the kingpins. Here's what I would do: I would pattern a program after state-run fish-and-game agencies. Grow marijuana and coca and opium poppies on public land, sell licenses annually to anyone who wants one, but with a limit to the amount you can harvest. Of course their would be poachers, but if they're caught they go to jail. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: question for you

Postby dbeach » Tue Sep 20, 2005 7:22 pm

legal pot sponsored by insurers seems like a money grab to me..plus dope em and rope em..specaility health insurance for pot heads.. better for cocconuts..<br><br>must need customers..then of course get rid of vitamins and supplements cuz they are soo dangerous..<br>CODEX make it hard to get herbs.[not pot}<br><br>this rich fascists lok eevrywhere for the next suckers game..them dopers got plenty cash for theri habits so why shoud not MEDICAL INSURERS get in on the action??? <p></p><i></i>
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an answer

Postby glubglubglub » Tue Sep 20, 2005 7:44 pm

I've got to say that in isolation the idea of a heroin maintenance program actually sounds like a good thing -- although having, say, pfizer or lilly run it doesn't sound so great.<br><br>What the pharms want are addicts to sell to -- if they get you hooked on something (or if you get ( or get given) a condition that 'requires' lifetime medication) it's basically an annuity for them; even when the drug goes generic it's still an annuity making its way into the pharm industry as a whole, and there's plenty of shenanigans that can be played to get patent protection (or even brand differentiation -- make lilly brand contain some other obscure, hard-to-isolate-and-identify addictive compound and wham! even if you lose the patent people will wonder why the generics just don't work as good...).<br><br>What the insurance companies want are fewer costs -- their investment pools aren't reliable enough revenue generators so cutting from the cost side is the surest profit raiser -- and so long as the different insurers move in rough lockstep there's little risk that premiums will decline; people tend to write it off as inflation, and there's not many people who can afford health insurance that won't buy it...a little care is needed in finding the pricing sweet spot for healthcare availbility (maximizing #subscribers * avg. premiums, say), but b/c the cost to consumer is buffered by the fact that it's usually at least partially picked up by the employer they've got a lot of leeway.<br><br>So between them, the chess game is about as follows: big pharma will want legalization of, preferably, the 'hard drugs', because the odds that any legalization scheme would:<br>i) require pharmaceutical grade care in manufacturing for hard drugs<br>ii) restrict the legal access to such things on a basis similar to prescriptions work now (possibly the same)<br>are high and thus big pharma -- along with the generics -- would emerge as the natural manufacturers for such items...and with a bit of bogus patenting (SAF-T-SPEEDBALL anyone?) they can operate much as they do now. Moreover, because the average joe is unlikely to make his own cocaine, heroin, or whathave you in his backyard, there's not the risk of a homebrew market laying around.<br><br>(side note: I doubt the illegal trafficking would subside (although it might dminish a bit in quantity and change a lot in methods -- where it's sourced from, obviously))<br><br>I don't see a real win for big pharma descheduling the lighter fare -- it's competition, and the homebrew market would be hard to cut down w/out more restrictive laws...but as above there's an incentive for insurers to get those legalized -- for some customers a regular dose of chronic might prevent them from becoming a chronic antidepressant or antianxiety or (pick your poison...) user.<br><br>---<br><br>I doubt the insurers are all that interested in medicalization, though, except as a path to legalization: with health supplements -- like vitamins, etc. -- they don't really want to acknowledge any health benefits b/c that might someday make them more obligated to pay for things (ie, raise costs), and this is something that dovetails with the the pharm's agenda -- they don't like competition -- and legalized drugs would mostly wind up similar...legal, but few if any recognized medical uses (and the medical uses would just be excuses for the pharms to get in on the action -- it wouldn't be difficult to get laws passed that 'medical marijuana' has to be of a certain grade to be used...as a natural substance it's difficult to get consistent concentrations, etc, or some other line of reasoning).<br><br>So in summary: it's a bit of tit-for-tat, I'd guess...each has conditiosn they'd want to see satisfied prior to throwing their full weight behind a legalization effort, and in some places they overlap... The situation seems not so much a simple (party A is pro, party B is con) but rather (A is pro on x if B is pro on y, B is pro on y if A is pro on z, ..) spiralling off to infinity.<br><br>---<br><br>So that's how I' respond...now I need time to think about it to see if I still agree with what I wrote. <p></p><i></i>
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Decrim and legalization

Postby robertdreed » Sat Sep 24, 2005 5:09 pm

I think it's ridiculous to model the drug law reform movement simply as an "elite plot", simply because it's found a few financial angels. <br><br>(I'm not sold on the idea that all billionaires are in cahoots in a unified plot to keep the masses oppressed, either. But that's a topic for another discussion.)<br><br>I do think that the progress of the movement has to be carefully monitored, lest it get hi-jacked by Big Pharma medicalizers seeking monopoly and continued control over individuals.<br><br>But I think it's instructive to consider the present Status Quo in regard to the legal substances tobacco and alcohol. <br><br>Here's how it is, in the USA- anyone who wants to cultivate their own personal patch of tobacco in a home garden can do so. No one is forcing tobacco consumers in this country to buy the commodity in a retail store. The can grow an annual supply in their own garden, or form an informal habitue's cooperative, and get it from a friend with a garden. <br><br>Despite this, the overwhelming number of tobacco consumers in this country buy it retail. ( I often shake my head over the numbers of tobacco smokers in the USA who hold liberal political opinions, meanwhile reliably forking over more money to the tobacco companies every year than they do in contributions to their favored political causes. The tobacco companies are well-known to have used a portion of their profits to support <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>their</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> favored political causes- like getting Jesse Helms elected, and re-elected, ad nauseum. )<br><br>As for alcohol- it's illegal to distill ethyl alcohol in the USA without a license from the ATF, which excludes ordinary citizens from doing so for their own personal use. (That said, the chances of someone being busted for setting up a stovetop moonshine still to distill a few liters of moonshine are virtually nil. As a chemical process, the distillation of small quantities of ethyl alcohol is ridiculously easy. For that matter, books how-to books are available at many public libraries. ) However, it is legal for private citizens to brew up to 200 gallons of beer or wine every year, for their own personal use- and as gifts, not for profit.<br><br>So the fact is that the tobacco and alcohol companies do not have an ironclad monopoly on an American citizen's access to tobacco and alcohol. <br><br>I have zero problem transferring this model to marijuana. As long as the right of private citizens to cultivate their own crop in small amounts for personal use is ensured, I don't care who retails it commercially. But I wonder about the commercial market potential of legalized cannabis. It's by no means that large or lucrative a market. <br><br>One of the ironic things about cannabis smoking is that for many people, even regular users, the amounts consumed annually are insignificant compared to tobacco. Consider the average weight of a tobacco cigarette- 800mg, 4/5 of a gram. That means that most users consume between 8-24 grams of tobacco per day. By contrast, even at my heaviest level of smoking pot, my personally consuming more than 7 grams a day was pretty much out of the question. And that was in the 1970s, before the advent of widespread availablity of super-strong cultivars. Between the high-test content of today's bud and my own moderation, 7 grams represents more like 3-6 months worth of use for me nowadays. The point I'm trying to make is that there simply isn't that much profit to be be made in cannabis as compared to tobacco. I think that in order to extract huge corporate profits out of it, personal cultivation would have to remain illegal in order to attempt to retain some semblance of a monopoly on supply. That's bogus legalization as far as I'm concerned, and I would never support that. <br><br>The widest economic free-choice scenario would have cannabis commerically available in specialty shops, along the lines of the connosseiur cigar trade...but even then, I think it would be difficult to turn a consistent profit, due to the informal competition from home gardeners. Cannabis is easy to grow, cure, and produce a high-quality product, compared to tobacco. ( Tobacco is actually sort of a scary plant to grow and handle- the raw leaves are potentially lethally poisonous. It isn't anything to allow your toddler to chew on- unlike cannabis, where the toxic effects are negligible. ) It's also less effort and trouble than home brewing/bottling of beer or wine. <br><br>I'm relatively uninterested in commercial legalization of cannabis. As long as it's legal to privately use, possess, carry on public transportation, and grow small quantities for personal uses and non-profit transfer, I consider that my rights aren't violated. The US Congress has the right to regulate and prohibit interstate trade, and the states and localities have the right to regulate and prohibit economic activity within their borders. Some of the States and localities in the USA maintain total prohibition of alcohol. Others regulate it to the point where only 3.2 percentage alcoholic beverages are commercially available. That's the right of those localities. I have no comment about that, as long as personal possession of liquor by adults isn't a criminal offense, leaving the miscreants subject to having their car tossed for contraband at an internal State roadblock checkpoint- which is the present unfortunate status of people who possess even minute quntities of cannabis, in many places in these United States. <br><br>I think that it's a mistake to view the present Zero Tolerance Drug War in exclusively economic terms. There's also a Culture War going on here- a culture war with political overtones. For cultural conservatives, there are clear benefits to maintaining a cultural regime that insists that the wide spectrum covered by the term "illegal drug use" is all of a piece, from one-time psychedelic experimentation to occasional cannabis use to heroin addiction. These political benefits have little to do with protection of economic profit, at least in a direct sense. It's much more about Machiavellian hypocrisy maintaining power and selective privilege- demonizing a scapegoat minority in the general population, while discreetly granting impunity for the exact same conduct to the wealthy, the politically useful, and as blackmail opportunity. Individuals who are more interested in experimenting with their minds than with following the letter of the law as handed down by State authority are prima facie political threats to Hobbseans and cultural reactionaries who view themselves as the sole defenders of traditional social values. <br><br>Illegal drug users are also troubling to the mentalities of the politically ambitious, who make a point of eschewing and disdaining any sort of behavior that might hinder their personal career path- or, if it's the case that they once "succumbed to temptation", they can be reliably counted on to issue unctuous mea culpas regretting their "youthful indiscretions." Such people- no matter how much political success they achieve, even if they get to be President or Prime Minister- can seldom if ever be counted on to champion the rights of the powerless and marginalized, until it becomes politically fashionable. Their value systems lack the needed integrity.<br><br>At this point in history, I can think of only two exceptions to the rule that politicians are forbidden to speak openly and without regret about their history of forbidden mind-altering drugs: Jesse Ventura, former Governor of Minnesota, who's gone so far as to appear on the cover of <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>High Times</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> magazine as an open supporter of cannabis and hemp legalization; and Tom Hayden of California, who has openly spoken of his experimentation withthe psychedelic brew Ayahuasca as an enlightening and educational experience. ( Hayden used ayahuasca a few years back on a trip to the Amazon rain forest, with his son. )<br><br><br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=robertdreed>robertdreed</A> at: 9/24/05 8:08 pm<br></i>
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