Disney, Bambi, and ...MENA?! In a coloring book for tots.

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Re: More sinister Disney machinations

Postby professorpan » Thu Jun 22, 2006 5:20 pm

Hugh,<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Yes, Prof Pan, I knew about those 'Menas,' too.<br>No need to imply that I am asserting this Disney-Mena is definitely CIA disinfo and then gleefully knock down that straw man you love so much. (Nacho Libre, however, is something I am more certain of.)<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Well, you seem awfully certain when you post your stuff. You said, in your original post:<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Very clever, nesting social Darwinism and fascist 'law of the jungle' messages into animal stories that the kids love and parents think are harmless. <br><br>But I think that the danger to Uncle Sam's 'reputation' from Mena Airport is being whitewashed with a KEYWORD HIJACKING in the minds of children. <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>And you diss me for focusing on your keyword hijacking theory when you put it in ALL CAPS for emphasis?<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>You sneer at any idea of keyword shenanigans while perhaps not realizing that I am throwing out possibilities like this Mena in Bambi 2 to be examined by others, not jeered puerily.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>You could've fooled me. It's the certainty of your statements that makes me feel compelled to address them. You're convinced of the reality of keyword hijacking in <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>Nacho Libre,</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> for instance, while I'm convinced the example is absurd and extremely improbable. You don't appreciate <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>examination</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> of your theories, only agreement with them. I've taken time and effort to show you where your confirmation bias has hijacked your powers of reasoning -- rather exhaustively, in the <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>Nacho Libre</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> example. You react with scorn and your admirers start accusing me of being a debunker. That's classic behavior based on a "want to believe" mentality of someone whose mind is made up. . . and damn the heretics.<br><br>The evidence you present for the near-entirety of the media as under <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>absolute</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> control of PSYOPS boogeymen is not enough to convince me of the validity of your theories. In fact, I've put forth several arguments, backed by evidence and reasonable analysis, against the existence of such an omnipotent cabal. But you find a piece of evidence here, another there, and base your conclusions on your <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>a priori</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> beliefs -- the very definition of confirmation bias. <br><br>When I grew weary of pointing out the obvious contradictions to some of your theories, I decided to point them out in a humorous way. But in spite of the humor, the Mena/Nacho Libre "connections" show how it is possible to connect all sorts of unrelated dots via creative thinking -- which is what you do well -- and apply them to the ideas you are trying to confirm. <br><br>I would be the last person to berate anyone for offering speculation. But if you do offer speculation, you should be prepared for others to analyze it. And if they disagree, and point to flaws in your speculation, it's a good idea to honestly listen to what they have to say. So far, I find that you have made up your mind about how the media/industrial complex works -- and you can't entertain that you might be wrong on some counts. <br><br>So please stop characterizing me as a sneering debunker. Let's discuss evidence and not get bogged down in personal attacks. Show me some incontrovertible proof of this massive micromanagement of creative media and I'll shake your hand and admit I was wrong. That's all I'm asking. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Sepka's comments on the original book.

Postby Sepka » Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:58 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Films are what they are and the original book is not respected. [...] In Disney's flick, Bambi is thrilled to have his dad be proud of him for kicking ass and Bambi leaves his friends to go off with dad leaving the women behind.<br><br>After Bambi's big fight he does reluctantly smooch 'Faline,' a girl deer but then follows a totally Dad-centric ending.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>You've not read the book, though, have you? The main thread of the plot was how Bambi slowly grew more archetypically male, and more emotionally isolated as he grew older. His father was a distant figure to him, admired but also somewhat frightening. In time, he becomes exactly like his father, without realizing that he's done so, and without ever understanding himself or his father or his mate Faline. Bambi's actions are constrained by the realities of life in the forest, and by the expectations of others.<br><br>Disney breaks the story off early, while it's still happy, and they've cartoonified it and added secondary characters, but the twin themes of Bambi's never really understanding or being comfortable with Faline, and wanting to be like his father are still there.<br><br>Hie thee to the library, good Hugh! Read "Bambi: A Life in the Forest" (Felix Salten; 1923; innumerable editions), then watch both movies, and your perspective on this will probably change. The book is quietly subversive in a cultural sense - social heirarchies and gender roles are carefully observed, but in a way that people who consider them ordained by heaven aren't going to be comfortable with. You're picking up on that, you know. You see Bambi slowly isolating himself from the world, all in the name of living up to male archetypes, and you disapprove. Salten never preaches - he expounds, then lets his audience form their own opinion. Salten was also a noted Progressive, and contributed to most of the prestigious left-wing German and Austrian periodicals of the day. <br><br>If I've run on here I apologize, but you've hit upon one of my grinding axes. Salten seldom gets much attention in the Anglophone world, being dismissed as a children's author, yet IMHO he's fully the equal of Kafka or Mann. He has an absolute touch for picking out the tiny, seemingly insignificant incident that summarizes the truth of the tale, and he can do this in a sentence or two of extremely plain and pedestrian prose. It sometimes fills me with depair to read him, because I know this is a born talent, and not a cultivated one, and I will never have it. <br><br>Also, if it will help settle this, I have acquaintances who are Disney and ex-Disney animators and animation directors. None of them worked on Bambi II ( I already checked) but they'll know people who did. My own personal guess is that "Mena" got named in a storyboard session, and that the name was inspired by "Ena", and everyone thought the name was clever as hell because they'd been using (NAME) on the boards to refer to her, and "Mena" is also an anagram of "name". Perhaps I'll be surprised. Perhaps an edict came down from on high that the doe would be named "Mena". I doubt it, but I'll find out, and share what I learn here. <br><br>-Sepka the Space Weasel <p></p><i></i>
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Re: More sinister Disney machinations

Postby professorpan » Fri Jun 23, 2006 2:07 pm

Didn't know about Salten, Sepka. Interesting story.<br><br>And thanks for injecting some reality-based thinking into this thread. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: names

Postby havanagilla » Fri Jun 23, 2006 2:29 pm

i've had some questions, sometimes, about names in movies. <br>In Dinosaur, one of the dino's is called Imma (mother in Hebrew), and there is "Bubbah" in one of the famous kids' tv/internet figures (a doll, in hebrew and it is a doll in the program), and I always become very JUMPY seeing it, ---<br><br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=havanagilla>havanagilla</A> at: 6/23/06 12:32 pm<br></i>
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Re: More sinister Disney machinations

Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Fri Jun 23, 2006 3:26 pm

Hey, Prof P.<br><br>My apologies, I don't have time to continue the discussion at this time, the world-wide world has major demands.<br><br>If I prefaced everything with "maybe" you'd probably be happier and less inclined to say "that's rediculous unless you can prove it."<br><br>Mea culpa: <br>When posting in a hurry my vocabulary has been less-than-clear about about my point, leaning towards the assertive instead of the interrogative. This brings out the hard-targeting swat-down mode in some like yourself. I put a Larouche 9/11 essay on the RI examining table last year with too much affirmation tone about what he gets right* and I had to fend off accusations of being a 'Larouche cult member come to recruit.' DOH. You'd think I'd avoid that scrum in the future. (Hi, Dreams End.)<br><br>*Re: Chip Berlet as noted in this new thread-<br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://p216.ezboard.com/frigorousintuitionfrm10.showMessage?topicID=4871.topic">p216.ezboard.com/frigorou...4871.topic</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br>(I think, from a quick look. Shouldn't look quickly, right?)<br>Never miss a chance to restate the obvious: I'm all for reality- based thinking and against using baseball bats on people.<br> Must fly, more later.<br><br>p.s. Look at Disney's product some more. Just poisonous.<br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=hughmanateewins>Hugh Manatee Wins</A> at: 6/23/06 1:29 pm<br></i>
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Re: names

Postby Sepka » Fri Jun 23, 2006 4:53 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>In Dinosaur, one of the dino's is called Imma (mother in Hebrew), and there is "Bubbah" in one of the famous kids' tv/internet figures (a doll, in hebrew and it is a doll in the program), and I always become very JUMPY seeing it, ---<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>In the American release, the character is creditted as "Eema". "Bubba" is a reasonably common American nickname, generally used in the south. It has connotations of being friendly but not too bright. That's not to say that the Hebrew meanings didn't play into the names too. For what it's worth, a lot of people, myself included, find the idea of dolls coming to life disturbing.<br><br>-Sepka the Space Weasel <p></p><i></i>
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Re: More sinister Disney machinations

Postby havanagilla » Fri Jun 23, 2006 5:03 pm

speka, well the hebrew for mother, is in fact better transliterated as eema. (whereas ima, is more like ai-ma, which is not the sound). In the movie, the character is a caricature of an "aunt jemima" type, i believe, with an african american voice and a maternal trait. The big dino is sort of Brittish grandmother type, and aladar is a very white american male, and so are neera (another common israeli name, btw) and her brother. So, you have a kind of "myth" there, of how a role model is bread, the ancestry of Brittish stamina (but a dying large dino), a black (former slave) caretaker/nanny, and ...step parents who are ancient, small in body but wise (cultured, Jews ? ;-) to teach him stuff...thus, aladar is fighting tyranny and fascism...and eliminates the "evil" that actually separated him from his real parents (or killed them). Now, all that remains to figure out, is...who are the carnataurs in the story ? the monarchs of old ? the native americans ? <br>the group, like the american ethos, is reaching a tara nulus, new land, a new home...without the evil ones around, and with a transformed, brave, new, orphaned leadership of nice white americans. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: More sinister Disney machinations

Postby Sepka » Fri Jun 23, 2006 5:16 pm

Well... I'd never seen "Dinosaur" that way. That's very interesting - I'll have to watch it again and think on it for a while.<br><br>Edit: And for that matter, is "Suri" an actual Hebrew name? During the recent fuss over some actor (Tom Hanks?) naming his child that, some sources claimed it was, and some scoffed at the allegation. Personally, I prefer to believe that he named her after the lemur, but I'm odd that way.<br><br>-Sepka the Space Weasel <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=sepka>Sepka</A> at: 6/23/06 3:32 pm<br></i>
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Re: More sinister Disney machinations

Postby professorpan » Fri Jun 23, 2006 5:29 pm

Hugh,<br><br>No worries, I know all about real-world demands. <br><br>I honestly am not out to hit anyone with a verbal baseball bat, although I have been known to beat dead horses with one. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: More sinister Disney machinations

Postby havanagilla » Sat Jun 24, 2006 5:59 pm

sepka, it seems that you meant tom cruise... <br>following your post here, I read some of the discussion on the so called hebrew source, based on cruise's PR person that it means "princess" in hebrew. <br>Israelis are still working on this riddle, no such word. the final conclusion is that it follows a certain non conventional way of saying Sarah, in Yiddish, and Sarah in Hebrew is close to the same root as "MInister" (cabinet member), which can roughly be translated as "princess". A long stretch...<br>Sar- Minister<br>Sarah - Female minister<br>(however, this is very far fetched, because the scripture tell that her given name was Saray, and when she accepted God, her name changed to Sarah...so..even this theory falls).<br><br>Yiddish phonetic - Sooreh (for sarah) which can sound, to a non trained ear, as Suri. <br> <br>(the report about her birth, in the media here, quoted the announcement that Suri means princess in Hebrew, adding in parenthesis ("If they insist"). namely, it became a kind of joke here.<br><br>HOwever, the acronym dictionary mantioned<br>Syracuse University Research Institue...emmm...<br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=havanagilla>havanagilla</A> at: 6/24/06 4:03 pm<br></i>
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