Bringing it to the streets: Community Forums

by **proldic** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 1:57 pm

Radical activism is populist outreach. I'm trying to push this here once and awhile for a few months, see other mentions now and then as well. Challenge ourselves to refine our message, don't give up on the meme-battle, you'll be pleasantly surprised how much people want credible truth. Remeber, it's not about getting to the absolute hard-core right away, it's about primimg people for the next level of discussion, although some hard-core may be necessary to get them there, too. Plus they will bring things and angles that we'd never coinsidered before, expanding our consciousness. Sense of changing our approaches- bolder, trying what seems unlikely, what may have failed in the past, doing it better, whatever it is it should be QUALITY as much as possible. Protests and symbolism not enough, education with appeal is also important. Let's do it! Form a core team. 3-5 folks. Very like-minded and pull-equal-weight..."affinity group". Bottom line all expectations, act off of pragmatic realities in specific community, mainstream message without sacrificing core principals, stealth pr -- carefully massage message for specific communities, bottom line: get them there! As long as they don't feel totally lied to, they'll stay. All ya need is $50 - $1,000 (depending on how much you can scrounge/get volunteers/how slick you want it - remember -too slick is bad, but anarcho-DIY hand-scrawled pr is worse. Remember, the point of doing this is not to preach to the choir, it's to expand the choir.) You'll need vehicles, daily part-time (1-3 hours) availability. Max. total 1-2 months per event. Think about it as growing a crop. This is where we can talk about anything, eventually, given the right slant and style...Main heading topic could be anything with enough general interest to bring in people, specific segments can be subsumed into the body, sub-heading, agenda, etc. Not a protest, welcome all opinions, prominently pose it as "community forum" w/ extensive q&a, audience participation, balance the speaker's panel to appeal to mass-audience as much as possible. So many topics, just look on this board: Political assasination, popular economics, corporate personhood, 9/11 truth, "conspiracy theory", history of fascism, criminal justice/drug policy, history of cointelpro, mainstreaming exposure of ra/elite pedophilia, Patriot/Posse Comitatus, False flag terror, etc. etc. The place to hold these types of events is free, central location well-known, w/ a/c in summer, pre-existing sound, stage, etc. Depending on size: church halls, union halls, town halls, the best place is school auditoriums, available free or low charge, insurance can be an issue, try to get the town on yr side, often if you can present yourself stealthily as a non-partisan group simply holding different sometimes controversy-inducing forums, this one being the first of which, they will cover w/ their insurance. If no, many lefty groups have their own, or have sympathetic agents, but even then worst-case the cost to cover a non-musical political event of 100-200 people for 1 night, is only around $300. Publicity: two types of posters - 1 3-color glossy for prominent locations, other b+w for mass distribution, local alternative papers will usually extend good coverage, local ms papers good for an article , regional media, try to get regional tv night-of, commercial radio often has weekend public affairs programming, AM local conservative talk radio always looking for interesting subjects, FM left-college radio offers multiple opportunities for plugs, they'll make up a free PSA for you, then all you have to do is call each d.j. during their show and ask them to play the cart, extensive flyering-street teams can be formed via local lefty-political types who already have the experience, from anarcho-kids, W families party, Green party, intriguing 3x5's handed out at the mall the day of the event, etc. Pack the crowd by any means necessary. Write three diffferent flyers for three different communities, reach out to all hidden audiences, good places: local less-popular politicos, non-profit poverty groups, Unitarians, Quakers, left-activists (Code Pinkers, UP&J, etc.), urban demographics, record stores, black hair salons, social clubs, hip-hop events, hippy/folk music scenes, ethnic churches, (bi-lingual) flyers, deaf people (have a signer), unions, half-way houses, recovery communities, often looking to become involved, to go on outings, etc. etc. Commit to mixed audience amap, liberal-conservative-liberatrian- apolitical- young-old-multicultural appeal. Public access tv very important, college a/v schools, volunteers seeking to fulfill requirements will produce and edit high-quality video of event for cost of tapes, pre-publicity in form of interviews, debates, coordinated with posters in the weeks before. Get local left-radio/techies to do sound, lighting. Possible live broadcast. Remember, promote everything you do, don't let any even seemingly insignificant opportunity slip by, numbers count big time, makinga quality event is not as hard, the challenge is crafting a promotional message(s) that can bring out people. First layer: create empathy, show extent, "shock", tragic implications, undeniability of problem, open with a stunning silent tribute, ex: art from women prisoners/ra victims/etc., or a/v presentation right up in front of stage, literature, people mill about talking to each other, keep a/v, movies keep it SHORT.... Key note speaker-moderator strong, clear- here's where commonality, "we're all effected", self-interest component must be brought in firmly. People should be squirming at this point, murmurs through audience, "yaeh, I see what she's saying...right, right..." Solutions: clear, real, minimize intractability/despondancy. Keep it moving, don't bog down (again strong mod, maybe not always even someone who understands whole issue 100% necessary)...Panel of no more than 4-5, keep speeches under 15 minutes, balance panel with mainstream experts (on our side, although not necessarily in total agreement), think of people's respect for status: doctors, shrinks, cops, whistleblowers, etc... you get the idea... Entire event no more than 1-1 1/2 hour, keep very invigorating, better debate and rancor than boredom. Snacks help. Audience participation, full q&a, spend time on audience questions, let them hold the mic, bring it around, this is where strong mod is important, afterwards experts stick around, answer 1-on-1 questions, end on positive note - with clear solutions, break out into action groups, sign petitions, this is where an organization can be formed, get phone lists, letter writing to govt, etc., can be done there as one group. Plug what has been acheived (hopefully vibrant new community consciousness hope), glorify it, plug next event -- hold it asap, easier next time cause of more help, keep it rolling. It is real, this is not totally easy, but pretty simple to pull of with a small group committment. Considering the level of intelligence and passion expressed on this board, it shouldn't be hard to hold these things all over n-amer-cia in the next year. Don't be shy, work it openly, we don't have time for fear and false pride....Also, when you're most amped and ready to "lay it down", also be able to lay back and let the process overwhelm, feel it - this is democracy, deeply. If it's real, you'll see the message and the people fold into one-ness. It is fucking spiritual. Don't forget crucial de-brief and re-group of core organizers, speakers, new committed enthusiastic people from audience at restaurant after event, (this is the best place where the next-stage energy can be formed)... This is revolutionary.

by **marykmusic** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 4:23 pm

This is wonderful! --MaryK

by **wintler** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 10:06 pm

Great briefer for a great social change tool proldic, hope don't mind if copynkeep; damned if i don't have to revise an opinion. Have never attempted the sophistication you lay out but have a fair bit of experience on a single issue version, greenie community listening posts in a number of timber towns. Diff gig so wont bore yez too much, but i found it amazing how being alert to the vibe and daring to (when necesary) steer discussion away from oppositional sticking points ("people need jobs!" "whats the forest for!") kept the whole thing sunny. Don't be afraid to steer is what i learnt.

by **proldic** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 7:01 pm

I want to thank all of those that attended this landmark event but more importantly those who wrote on it. This is truly revolutionary. This article will appear in one of the major Black newspapers...I could not say too much that would be different from what everyone wrote but I feel I have to say something. So much of this maybe what has already been written. It should also be noted that this conference has generated a tremendous amount of interest. Maybe not it the major newspaper but the local CBS, Fox and NBC affiliates will air programs... I write to share some observations about the just concluded drug conference; chaired by the "minority leader". He’s a Republican city councilor to a Democratic Hispanic mayor. The fingerprints of drug policy reformers were all over the conference content. The conference had great diversity both in the audience and on the panels. With the leadership of the Mayor, the importance of a conference hosted by and held in a capitol city, the invaluable cooperation of (the local university), and the nonprofit foundation of health insurer Aetna (which financed the conference) and whose executive director, a Latina attorney gave a moving keynote address about the non-stigmatizing of addiction during which she discussed her own struggle with chronic depression. I will share only two observations concerning legalization and the conference as a template/model/prototype for future events. The discussion of legalization and its capacity to alienate or attract people has been debated within the reform movement. In the past I respected the opinion of many who felt the “legalization” word was a "bridge too far" beyond the mainstream with the capacity to scare more than persuade. Whatever may have been the reality "then," this is now and in 2006 the need to prove that drug prohibition has failed is fading; it's conceded by the mainstream. The unconverted but open minded are more concerned with what the alternative looks and sounds like, whether you call it legalization, regulation, normalization, or liberation. I watched a mayor, a judge, a state prison commissioner, city councilors, doctors & therapists, recovering addicts, nurses, teachers, Hispanic and black community activists accept the failure of current policy and recognize the need for an alternative involving more treatment and fewer police. Opinions differed, but legalization was mentioned many times as a tool for better public health and safer neighborhoods, not as a worsening of current conditions. While most spectators were sympathetic to reform, many were merely fed up with drug prohibition and struggling for an alternative. The law enforcement panel attempted to opine otherwise, but even they conceded eventually (with some exceptions like the DA who said the problem with current policy was that there was too little public "shame" for drug use and users). The police chief angrily denounced such experiments in ‘his grandchildren’s neighborhood. The prohibition panelists talked about "demand reduction", gave lip-service to treatment, demonstrating their lack of insight. By my observation, drug prohibition no longer owns the "legalization" word as a scare-tactic in public discourse. Reformists now have a great opportunity to explain. This as a conference template involving the police, the state prosecutor's office and the DEA was powerful early in the presentation. They spent some time "shamelessly" promoting "more of the same" and claiming vaguely the failures of Amsterdam, Zurich and Baltimore, but the contrast between their "policy views" and reformers' framing of the public health question and the regulation policy struck me as quite educational and enlightening. Sr. Judge Burnett of Washington, DC, modeling black professional criminal justice experience with the criminal justice system, gave a powerful presentation for policy change virtually immune from criticism. Demographic studies about the Hispanic community, female addiction, testimony of recovered addicts now delivering therapy, juvenile justice workers, Dale Gieringer's stories of how Oakland, CA has survived medicalized marijuana distribution without an earthquake (so far), all provided knowledgeable and respected views about practical change from drug prohibition to regulation. The panel on drug use management (including professor & psycho-pharmacologist Robert Heimer of Yale's Public Health School) provided invaluable info on the role of drugs in drug abuse management. We can all say that "treatment works," but it's useful to know more about what and why, particularly because drug prohibitionist coerced-abstinence "treatment" funds so many junk-science therapy programs for marijuana users. The conference closed on the compelling issue of what can be done now by cities and local activists, within the framework of federal prohibition laws and state prohibition enforcement. Roger Goodman of the King County Bar Association, of Seattle is working up a list of "little changes" for distribution, but there's doable work to reduce the harm of prohibition. My observation on the template: This type of thing can be done (thanks for the nonstop food and drink), packing a comprehensive conference into two days, with a big city as the host. Every city has players in this issue, frustrated health care delivery experts, frustrated community activists, academic experts, addiction survivors and thinking law enforcement people. To be seen is whether the connections made by local activists can be harnessed to provide an ongoing source of political organizing and pressure on state and municipal legislators to create change. This city happens to have a mayor who is ready to lead a neighborhood parade without fearing soft on crime demagoguery. The real work has just begun.

by **Watchful Citizen** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 10:15 pm

Great outline, proldic. Totally agree. This is my sig quote at another site: Educate, don't sloganize. Goals- 1) debunk the 'just' war by explaining the economics and showing the bodies. 2) deligitimize the hijackers of our government in the eyes of those who don't know it has been hijacked by pointing to the post-1947 CIA coup and hackable electronic voting machines. 3) help others better determine friend from foe by showing how state-controlled media uses psy-ops to sell militarism. 4) provide an alternative to fascism with democracy and sustainable living by restoring the US Constitution, Bill of Rights, and environmental science.

by **eric144** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 10:22 pm

"pointing to the post-1947 CIA coup " could you expand on that please ?

by **banned** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 11:24 pm

"Old Boys: the American Elite and the Origins of the CIA" by Burton Hersh. CIA was established from the wartime OSS (Office of Strategic Services under Wild Bill Donovan) in September 1947 and proceeded to become a shadow government accountable to no one but itself.

by **Watchful Citizen** » Sun Oct 30, 2005 12:24 pm

Air Force Lt. Col. L. Fletcher Prouty was the Air Force's liason with CIA from 1955-1963. He watched the CIA take over the government under its director (1953-61) Allen Dulles. Prouty reports that a document written by Dulles in 1949 on making the CIA a secret government is the equivalent of "the CIA's Mein Kampf."He also identified photos of CIA men at Dealey Plaza in Dallas who were part of the assassination plot against JFK. <a href="http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/ST/ST.html">www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/ST/ST.html</a> ("The Secret Team, The CIA and Its Allies in Control of the United States and the World")

by **eric144** » Sun Oct 30, 2005 12:33 pm

Thanks both of you. Makes perfect sense.

by **slimmouse** » Sun Oct 30, 2005 6:59 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Challenge ourselves to refine our message, don't give up on the meme-battle, you'll be pleasantly surprised how much people want credible truth. Remeber, it's not about getting to the absolute hard-core right away, it's about primimg people for the next level of discussion, although some hard-core may be necessary to get them there, too. Plus they will bring things and angles that we'd never coinsidered before, expanding our consciousness.<hr></blockquote> We rarely see eye to eye Prol. But this is unquestionably IMO your finest hour on this board. I agree with you 100%. Whatever it takes, lets do it. LETS GET FUCKING ACTIVE.

by **Watchful Citizen** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 8:17 pm

I just posted this in another thread where you (proldic) wrote that the internet is not representing people of color. I agree and expanded on some old discussion material and some new comments relevent to doing a grassroots outreach program so I post this here, too. I see that lately the GOP and Pentagon have lost most black support due to Iraq and Kamp Katrina so some things are self-evident and beyond spinnability, even by black leadership as detailed below. We don't have to prove everything. But the depth of corruption by alphabet agencies (the killing of JFK, wars, coups) is unsuspected by most Americans and I think that should be a focus of revelation to debunk 'the just war' and keep those monies for domestic use. ------------------- Proldic, I agree with you and am taking this thread to expand on some topics you misunderstood me on weeks ago. I'm studying the way militarism is injected into every facet of American culture. I've found that economics plays a big part in determining who is vulnerable to being conned into killing for the wealthy. You're right about the internet being a heavily white venue so far. Computers are a middle-class-to-elite expensive technology which takes money and time to get into and use regularly. TV culture's elimination of reading and writing in favor of emotionally manipulative imagery hits the more vulnerable poor harder than those with the dollars and time to read parapolitics on blogs to find out what's happening and who the players are. And even newspaper readership is going away fast. I suspect that even the attempts to make broad-band internet access more common is a way to get internet users to use it to watch film clips resembling TV instead of reading it like a newspaper. Gotta make sure computer users don't get too smart! So class division is even more systemic in the internet than in published books and newspapers and class is closely related to race in this country. The anti-Vietnam War college activists also figured out that they had to connect with the working poor who weren't on campuses going to anti-war rallies and activist meetings. It appears that the alliance of middle-class white students and the mostly working-poor blacks was/is the FBI's and Pentagon's worst fear, a class alliance that would check the power of the rich to wage capitalist wars for profit with impunity. Hence the killing of Malcom X, Fred Hampton and many Black Panthers, and Martin Luther King. So now the Pentagon uses poor African Americans as prime targets for the economic draft since the draft was eliminated in 1973. Recycling the poor by using them against other poor people is an old tactic for solving two problems, having poor people and wanting the resources they live near. Likewise, financing CIA wars with drug profits and dumping the drugs in poor black neighborhoods and then profiting off the prison-industrial complex while using media to re-polarize whites and blacks against each other and further disenfranchising black voters uses fascist race-based vulnerability to visual targeting as 'the enemy' as a tool of class politics to build elite power on the bodies of the poor just as sure as the Old South's plantations did. "Don't free the slaves, they're too dangerous. The victims of Kamp Katrina were too dangerous to help." Thank goodness fascists will save us from our bad selves by killing off the 'immoral and weak' among us in the Eugenic States of America. I learned about the Pentagon's exploitation of black poverty when I worked with a prominent black singing group getting booked at some top-shelf events. (I work as a vendor in the theater/event industry and meet stars and politicians regularly.) I was horrified to discover that the NAACP and Jesse Jackson maintain close ties to the Pentagon as a jobs program and path to the middle class for blacks. I toured for months with former members of the US Air Force Symphony Orchestra who were black and some Vietnam vets and discussed black survival in a white military nation at length. So I'm not soapboxing from an isolated white experience. (I've seen repeated harassment of one black friend. On one tour I watched cops frisk my black boss and close friend and take money from his wallet. His crime? Dancing with white girls while black. Someone probably dropped a dime on him and a SWAT team of cops descended on us at a club and took him around the corner for a body search. Several times I've met him at our hotel's restaurant only to find security or cops hassling him over nothing. I'm embarassed to admit that I used my 'white man card' by putting my arm around my friend and fending off the unwarranted attention. What's worse, it worked. That's reality even in post-Rosa Parks Amerikkka.They left him alone when whitey stepped in. The black performers and ex-military I knew didn't want to 'represent' blacks, they wanted to feed their kids. I found that people often know exactly how wrong things are but just take their paycheck and detach from the larger picture by saying "don't I have a right to survive?" No one wants to acknowledge the smoke rising from the crematoria of American Military-Industrial Media Complex or their part in it. (I also know someone who works at Fox TV in NYC and tells me people working there know how bad Fox is and hate it but labor on in resignation. Resignation is its own reward.) Every year the NAACP (which does plenty of good work) has a tribute dinner for the US military with attendees like Colin Powell and other high-ranking people of color. In 2004 the tribute was to the US Air Force with a reception paid for by Lockheed Martin. I was supposed to work for this event. The event was advertised as honoring those who fight the War on Terror (ugh). I refused to work the event since Abu Ghraib had just broken and the Air Force had just wiped out another wedding party. (In fact, this event booking led me to quit a two-year job with the performers and face the trials of chronic unemployment.) I found the NAACP had a whole department called 'Armed Services and Veteran's Affairs' originally used to ensure that blacks get the same benefits as whites from the Pentagon but has devolved into enabling the barter of food and housing for cannon-fodder, a far cry from the attitudes of William Edward Burghardt DuBois on civil rights. <a href="http://www.naacp.org/programs/asva/asva_history.html">www.naacp.org/programs/as...story.html</a> >snip< "Today, partially as a result of the efforts of the NAACP Armed Services and Veterans Affairs Department, the NAACP has noted significant improvements in the status of African Americans serving in defense of our country. Approximately 30% of the working population is directly or indirectly employed by the Department of Defense (DoD) as uniformed military personnel, federal employees, or DoD contractors/sub-contractors. African Americans compose significant percentages of this work force. For example, in the military departments, approximately 19% of the service men and women are black. In the United States Army alone, 40% of the female population is black. A large proportion of the African American population is involved in military service because these occupations offer employment, training, and educational opportunities that are lacking in private industry. Since 1975, the NAACP has formally recognized men and women who make significant contributions to the defense of our country through the coordination of an elegant annual awards dinner. The dinner is the culmination of a year-long search for the individuals most worthy of such prestigious recognition. employed by the Department of Defense (DoD) as uniformed military personnel, federal employees, or DoD contractors/sub-contractors. African Americans compose significant percentages of this work force." >snip< Here's the 2004 dinner's webpage: hmmm. 404. Not found. Wonder why? "last modified 9/8/05" on related pages... Oh well, here's the listing of the event with some details: <a href="http://www.naacp.org/news/2004/2004-05-19.html">www.naacp.org/news/2004/2004-05-19.html</a> And here are lovely photos of the NAACP dinner with Marine Corp Commandant James L. Jones giving Kwaasi Mfume an award: <a href="http://www.naacp.org/programs/asva/asva_galary.html">www.naacp.org/programs/as...alary.html</a> The 2002 dinner was a tribute to the Marine Corps: <a href="http://www.naacp.org/news/2002/2002-07-07.html">www.naacp.org/news/2002/2002-07-07.html</a> Now called the Roy Wilkins Award with all military winners: <a href="http://www.naacp.org/inc/docs/convention/convention_roy_walkins_award_winners.pdf">www.naacp.org/inc/docs/co...inners.pdf</a> >snip< National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) 2005 Roy Wilkins Renown Service Award Recipients United States Army Lieutenant General John R. Vines United States Navy Mr. Jesse W. McCurdy, Jr. United States Marine Corps Captain Keystella Mitchell United States Air Force Mr. Neville Thompson National Guard Lieutenant General Roger C. Schultz United States Army National Guard Master Sergeant Claire M.S. Potier United States Air National Guard United States Coast Guard Lieutenant Lushan A. Hannah 4 th Estate Defense Agencies Mrs. Traci Briscoe Defense Contract Management Agency National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) 2005 NAACP Meritorious Service Award Recipient Vice Admiral Gerald Hoewing Chief of Navy Personnel/Deputy Chief of Naval Operations (Manpower & Personnel) National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) 2005 Benjamin L. Hooks Distinguished Service Award Recipient Ms. Patricia C. Adams Deputy Assistant Secretary of the Navy (Civilian Human Resources) >snip< That's the NAACP's tie to the Pentagon. Proldic, you were looking for 'coded language' for evidence that RI has been overrun by anti-semites and other racists. Did you forget that Jesse Jackson called New York City "hymietown"? Not too coded a comment perhaps denoting Jackson's own bias against Jews. Or maybe this was a Washinton Post (military-media) generated smear to keep Jews and Blacks from uniting, too. Divide and conquer smears are commonly attributed to targets who are effective in organizing resistance to peel off potential allies and the Washington Post is a CIA flagship for psy-ops along with the NYT, LAT, and Miami Herald, TV, magazines, and wire services. Here is a 1998 Washington Post (get your salt) recap article from some forum called 'Clinton Accused' called 'Feeding Frenzy' about this 1984 political incident that tagged into the image of Louis Farrakhan as anti-semitic to maximize damage to Jackson's image as a political candidate: <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/clinton/frenzy/jackson.htm">www.washingtonpost.com/wp...ackson.htm</a> >snip< "Jesse Jackson's 'Hymietown' Remark – 1984 Feeding Frenzy Rev. Jesse Jackson referred to Jews as "Hymies" and to New York City as "Hymietown" in January 1984 during a conversation with a black Washington Post reporter, Milton Coleman. Jackson had assumed the references would not be printed because of his racial bond with Coleman, but several weeks later Coleman permitted the slurs to be included far down in an article by another Post reporter on Jackson's rocky relations with American Jews. A storm of protest erupted, and Jackson at first denied the remarks, then accused Jews of conspiring to defeat him. The Nation of Islam's radical leader Louis Farrakhan, an aggressive anti-Semite and old Jackson ally, made a difficult situation worse by threatening Coleman in a radio broadcast and issuing a public warning to Jews, made in Jackson's presence: "If you harm this brother [Jackson], it will be the last one you harm." Finally, Jackson doused the fires in late February with an emotional speech admitting guilt and seeking atonement before national Jewish leaders in a Manchester, New Hampshire synagogue. Yet Jackson refused to denounce Farrakhan, and lingering, deeply rooted suspicions have led to an enduring split between Jackson and many Jews. The frenzy also heightened tensions between Jackson and the mostly white establishment press. " >snip< Sounds like Jackson both really said it AND he got it played to the hilt by the CIA media to divide blacks from jews. Sidenote: I see that the new editor of the LA Times (CIA venue for psy-ops) is black and in the past was offered the #2 spot at the NYTimes which is slashing employees as readership plummets for all papers. The NYT staff cuts will probably be used to tighten ship post-Judith Miller imprisonment with lines drawn in the corriders just as the CIA is polarizing over the neocons with refusniks ousted. Here's an interesting article on the recent shake up at the LATimes and its sister paper, the Chicago Tribune. This is all related to CIA control of public opinion and perhaps preparation for people of color in cities being the majority in this country soon: <a href="http://www.lamag.com/ME2/dirmod.asp?sid=14D5B253DB1D499F9AD38F459D8E926A&nm=&type=Publishing&mod=Publications%3A%3AArticle&mid=8F3A7027421841978F18BE895F87F791&tier=4&id=620067A2F92C48368CF5A07C13BF1F77">www.lamag.com/ME2/dirmod....7C13BF1F77</a> Proldic, you were recently skeptical of my personal account of berating Jesse Jackson for complicity in militarism. You cited some lawsuit against Jackson the same day which I still don't know about. So here's more info on my 2004 encounter with Jesse Jackson in Chicago.. I attended the June 2004 Rainbow/PUSH Coalition in Chicago along with performers. I listened to Jackson bring black generals in medal-encrusted uniforms onstage and talk about their military careers for an hour despite the conference booklet decrying the Pentagon budget starving of the poor. And this was right after the NAACP military tribute dinner along the same lines. So I met Jackson backstage and cited him for hypocrisy and complicity while his security people eyed me and Jackson said nothing and then just left. I was the last person he met that night. Back at the hotel with conference meetings in every room, I saw the corporate donor sign board and saw Lockheed Martin and Boeing listed. Aha. Big money and Pentagon influence, just like the NAACP relationship. The economic draft has some high level...no not that racially-charged word, um...salesmen. So here's the link with corporate donors like Lockheed Martin, The Boeing Company, Shell Oil, Bank of America, Chase Manhatten Bank, Coors: <a href="http://www.rainbowpush.org/conferences/annualconference/2005/sponsors.htm">www.rainbowpush.org/confe...onsors.htm</a> Obviously many companies want PR points for 'supporting equality' but I don't think Lockheed Martin and Boeing do. They want troops to run the killing machines they make in the wars the White House makes.. Jackson seems to have found the value of talking critically to power while making overtures to save them face and to exact financial concessions. This 9/27/05 Jackson comment on 'Iraq in Katrina's Wake' describes atrocity in rather gentle terms and concludes with "Let’s put our clients in Iraq on notice. They must take responsibility for their future, for we have done enough. Announce a timetable for bringing the troops home. It is time to turn our attention to rebuilding America." Yikes. Imagine Martin Luther King writing " Let's put our clients in Vietnam on notice. They must take responsibility for their future, for we have done enough." Nope, unimaginable. King called murder and torture a crime against humanity regardless of the 'job opportunities' offered. True, Jackson calls the GOP out for their many crimes but treads softly on the war compared to the morally-charged anti-imperial anti-war language used during the Vietnam War. <a href="http://www.rainbowpush.org/FMPro?-db=RPOdata.fp5&-format=rainbowpush/data/resultspress.htm&-lay=main&category=press&-sortfield=Date&-sortorder=descend&-find">www.rainbowpush.org/FMPro...cend&-find</a> And when combined with Jackson's business education program which includes The Wall Street Project and not just small business support, I wonder where he draws his line of what is unacceptable and what to accomodate from corporations: <a href="http://www.rainbowpush.org/FMPro?-db=RPOdata.fp5&-format=rainbowpush/data/resultspress.htm&-lay=main&category=press&-sortfield=Date&-sortorder=descend&-find">www.rainbowpush.org/FMPro...cend&-find</a> >snip< 11/12/2003 Creating Opportunity Conference Sponsored by The Peachtree Street Project Rainbow/PUSH Coalition and Citizenship Education Fund Wall Street Project South click here for program details and registration 8:00 AM - Awards Breakfast Salute to diversity, inclusion and emerging market growth 8:00 AM to 3:00 PM - Sponsor Viewing Room - Sample Products of Our Sponsors 10:00 AM - The Coca-Cola Company Opportunity Forum Coke's top first-tier suppliers discuss LIVE supplier/vendor opportunities. 10:00 AM - Business Plan Boot Camp Space limited - APPLY EARLY! Draft, Polish and Perfect Your Business Plan with one-on-one advice from seasoned professionals in finance and marketing. Noon - Ministers Luncheon empowering pastors for financial stewardship Reverend Jesse L. Jackson, Sr. 2:00 to 4:00 PM - Concurrent Workshops Auto Manufacturing, Marketing and Sales Drive the Sunbelt Economy Glenda Gill, Rainbow/PUSH Automotive Project Terri Moon, executive vice president, The Bing Group Franchising - Roadmap to Entrepreneurism Clinton Barrow, president, Prestige Consulting Group Building Relationships to Corporate America Marcellus Jackson, J.D., Clark Atlanta School of Business >snip< "Building Relationships to Corporate America" !!?? Well, that shows who's boss and who to pander to, doesn't it? That's a dangerous affirmation of the power elite to offer to wannabes. My own opinion- that is like offering Jews classes in builiding relationships with Nazis. I guess a 'relationship' is better than just being fuel for their fires. But isn't complicity another form of fuel? Getting a piece of their pie is supposed to represent 'winning' the rat race and equality, I suppose. Survival is the first rule of fighting. I get the impression Jackson has decided that ending up in a pool of blood like MLK by taking on the CIA and Pentagon isn't worth the martyr status when there's money to be had in staying around and offering PR face-saving to the military-media complex in exchange for portraying the US military as a 'noble vocation' in support of the 'War on Terror.' Can you imagine Martin Luther King responding to this deal with the devil to kill other poor people for personal economic survival in the United States of Apartheid? Thankfully, not everyone in those groups is happy about this tack. I spoke to a long-time NAACP board member after the Rainbow/PUSH conference and he admitted 2004 was the first military tribute dinner he couldn't bear to attend. We talked about the economic draft and he said he'd try to address this topic with other board members to steer away from complicity in what the Pentagon is ordered to do by The Powers That Be. I hope you get a better picture of the topics and my own overt attitudes in my own words, proldic. I wouldn't waste my time with 'coded' language when fighting ignorance about the military occupation of our country and understanding how people attempt to engage with all classes: 1)those who know the fascist scam 2)those who have no clue what is going on 3)and the muddled middle of the semi-informed.

by **proldic** » Wed Nov 02, 2005 1:59 pm

Ok, your selective comprehension is mind-boggling for someone who posts the kind of stuff you do. Un-real. Did you not even read the words of my post --- again? First of all, maybe you think it's a minor point, but I did not simply write "the internet is not representing people of color" as you reduced it to. If you were to convey the content of my post accurately, what I said --- and what I was clearly intending --- was that "There simply isn't enough representation from the statistical majority -- the working poor -- here. Whites, people "of color", whatever." Totally different tone and line of reasoning. So you post in two places this lengthy so-called "response" which would require me to sift line-by-line through your extremely subtle double-back obfuscationist bullshit, on a thread where I specifically said "I've been feeling it personally because I've been more and more unable to spend the time to articulate my views due to economic reasons". Thanks, you couldn't have picked a better time. How convenient. It's not like you haven't been posting every single day elsewhere this whole time. So now I'll have to respond w/o much time to rephrase or edit or think, in a jumble --- oh well what the hell. What I can say right now my impression of your posts is that the net effect of much of your writing is pure divide-and-conquer, all be it on a much more sophisticated level than this board has ever seen. I read between your lines, and what I see you're saying is the black leadership is completely inneffective and totally in league with the fascists. You say let's shine bright light directly on Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton and Marion Barry and James Sharpe and Harold Washington and Mosley-Braun, etc. etc. But what are you ignoring? What about the 40+ year cointelpro against any powerful black political figures besides Farrakhan? Obsesivelly focusing on their personal follies, their prejudices, their slips. You (purposefully) gloss over the intricacies of the American political scene. It's not equal. And can't be judged as such, despite your obvious slippery post-modernist style that seems to disable you from allowing any harder judgements about ourselves. And check yourself, "anti-militarism" per se is not the key battle, justice is. May not seem like it, but that's a subtle but big difference there. May be shocking to some, but I'm not philosophically pacifist or anti-militarist in any way. I fully support a citizen-controlled career military, similar to the concept of community policing. Obviously, a radical shifting away from our unique privatized military-industrial complex is what is necessary to acheive economic reparation. But attacking and dismantling the rank-and-file of the US armed forces, particularly the black troops, will not end capitalism, nor will it go nearly as far as people think to removing capitalist economic injustice. When that happens, they will be replaced by UN troops, anyway. As we speak our military command structure is actively trying to offset democratically-rooted citizen-soldiers with anti-democratic immigrant-soldiers from historically bifurcated fascist countries. I would support a strong socialized military if we were in, say, USSR circa 1940, or Venezuela, circa 2005. I believe Ghandi was a historically regressive force who single-handedly forestalled an immenent and imminently-necessary bloody armed socialist revolution in India, preserving economic injustice, neo-colonial status, and the caste system for another xxx years. And I don't believe that disarming American citizens is good, either, btw. You dredging up the infamous "hymietown" cointelpro as if you're simply reminding us all, "blacks are just as bad", yet your net effect once again is to give it new life in a forum where it may have not had any, re-energizing the destructive power of the "meme" precisely at the time that Jackson has the chance of becoming a significant force in black electoral politics. Once again. So, either we should take you seriuously and trust the direction you're leading people because you seem to know alot, or we should be skeptical of your high profile because of the mind-boggling selectivity such as when you cry dumb when it comes to the most basic of knowledge, such as the anti-semitic and cult-like history of LaRouche, the ground-breaking work of Jared Israel and TENC on 9/11, or how you never even considered the idea that installing Islamic fascist fundamentalist governments throughout the "3rd world" might be the goal of the CIA. Or, how about once again right here in this thread when you refer to Judicial Watch's lawsuit against Jackson as some lawsuit you know northing about -- "never heard of them" -- nope, "me no know nothing". Yeah, right. You would have to be friggin' BRAIN DEAD not to have known about anyone of those three examples. And you are obviously not. What you are is a bullshitter. Your descriptions of your extremely-limited "personal experiences" around black people, black leaders, and their organizations bespeaks total detatchment from black culture, current tactical realities, and overall is strangely judgemental considering the "pass" you give yourself. Extremely patronizing, frankly. You have no problem holding black leaders on a higher pedestal in a lily-white forum like this, and then attempt to discredit them as leaders of theior people due to corruption, association with corporate America, and the Army. Do you not understand the role the US military has played in providing a stop-gap against total black dis-employment? Does that mean black leaders who play into that are "selling out" 100%? Would mainstream black leaders do any different to be sucked into that pay-to-play scheme any more than say, Wellstone honoring career soldiers from his home state at a State Fair, or Robert Kennedy on a USO tour? Ironic how your "purity" does not extend to jew-scapegoating when it comes to this board, or Ramsey "Islam is the answer for the world" Clarke, though. Don't you dare go and try to paint this as apologism for the expolitation of blacks as cannon fodder and suicide troops, or a blind defense of the reality of black anti-semitism, or the impotency of the NAACP or PUSH or the Rainbow Coalition -- this is reality, political macro-reality, and I believe quite fine judgements for the US streets, 2005-style. Hey maybe someday you could analyze how the Penatgon manipulates white leftists, huh? Cause I'm seeing the divide being created, and I see you playing it up, not trying to expose the roots. It's not Jesse Jackson getting more political power that I'm worried about. In fact, it's clear they are worried about it, so he must represent some remaining threat. I know his precise level of co-option, and I've judged it as "acceptable" for the purposes of my tactical alliances. Pragmatic -- absolutely. Unprincipled -- absolutely not. I have spoken about this for years, and I won't be quiet now like I wasn't quiet then. Like I wasn't quiet about Jackson's decisions in 1988 during the Rainbow voter registration drive campaign in the packed community room of one of the biggest public housing complex on the east coast, and I wasn't quiet when I talked about Farrakhan's relationship to the FBI when the role of his organization came up during my weekly meetings in the criminal justice and prison reform movement. Your d&c tactics can't drive me out from the only traditional alliances that have sustained revolutionary change in this country since the 1920's!!! I won't allow it. You deride me for trying to expose subtle red herrings on the white side, and warn people against listening to me. But for the blacks and jews it's another story, huh? And once again in the USA it's all (or at least most of it) coming back to relatively power-less minorities like blacks and Jews. Even someone like the Mexican president Fox repeats these memes. Or take a look at this high-profile repeated 4-times on prime time in the last 2 months PBS Frontline show where they are exposing this corrupt - no doubt - and strong (popular)black mayor in Newark. Now you know PBS is under "attack" from the "right" and all the left-liberals are upset, we must save this institution, this beacon of truth - that gives us the final, yuppie-Volvo-driving-NPR-"I went to college"-take on things...if you can read between the lines there's probably more truth on FOX. So they [PBS/NPR] cover Wal-Mart, which is bad, to counter their image-move to the right to appease congress, and this piece seems to be inkeeping with that. But it's even more. Of course they're running this light-skinned "what-me-conservative?", casting him like some Barak Obama, he's a better-spoken younger guy, obviously backed by the more wealthy interests, which PBS doesn't hide, just kind of contrasts that reality w/ this picture of Sharpe (the current mayor), running Newark into the ground, he's shown as as a real monster, threatening his opponents, black street poll workers using fraud type tactics to support him, he's rough and raw, appealing to the ghetto, drinking wine (which they make a point of highlighting) during campaign stops, stirring up support from the ghetto, people crowding around him, using his street posse to intimidate the PBS reporters. In fact the name of the show (I think it was Frontline) was "Street Fight" or something like that. It made for some entertaining PBS TV. So the set-up is: Sharpe's slogan is "Newark's not for sale" - essentially that these rich people, these powerful interests are sponsoring the candidate of his opponent (who PBS is undeniably covering sympathetically, referring to him as 'Corey' his first name, etc.) who is less popular in the general pop of the city, but is better-funded. So anyway, PBS makes a point to show that Sharpe's people are paranoid, conspiracy-filled. Now PBS/NPR is mocking them for believing there's a media conspiracy against Sharpe because he's black & strong and popular in the hood. And here they even have this secret recording of Sharpe's white temporary hired-hand-outside-paid consultant talking to the PBS guys against his own boss, whispering how he can't believe how paranoid they are and how they all believe there's some giant media conspiracy against Sharpe. Now, am I wrong here, or is that kind of ironic? Does seem to me like their paranoia is right, huh, what w/ PBS choosing to expose Sharpe, what with all the other much much bigger corruption in political circles in white towns. And you have to see this in context like many blacks do, w/ the whole long-standing campaign against black politicians, even ones that were not so good, many corrupt, but think about how their corruption is constantly commented upon and the huge network of old-boy country-club-smoky room- white boy corruption is ignored, or at least not treated like, "Oh there goes another corrupt WHITE politician". The CIA-FBI has had a long standing Cointelpro targeting mainstream black politicians. So the question is why - even when they're not leftist, and the answer to me says something, mostly that organized US blacks reprersent a threat politically to the NWO, still - just by the fact of being black - so 80% are not to be trusted, the other 20% are Uncle-tom types and they are consistently be elevated, the same can't be said of any other race. And it gets deeper with the level that the scum always floats to the top, and these guys are corrupt, but referring to what I said earlier, compared to the white corruption you have got to wonder why they are singling them out, I mean follow the train here >> 100 years of slavery, 100 years of racism, no blacks in office post-reconstruction until the late '70's >> blacks granted limited power>> black bourgiousie vetted for weaknesses and controllability>> given mayorships of sinking cities (like Newark etc.) >>let them take the blame is the thinking, I mean they resisted even token black political power for so many years so then why the switch? This to my mind is proof of the function of racism being not just an internal ethnic hate thing but primarily at it's root a tool, a tool that can be put down if blacks (or Jews) can be trusted, which is this level they're trying to acheive now, so it's really a testament to the strength of the spirit of resistance in black folks (and the remaining tattered hard-wired vestiges of humanitarianism and bolshevik-volk in Jews) in the US, that they still cannot totally be bought off enough, even these corrupt, half-in-half-out of bed guys like Jackson, Sharpe, or Sharpton, or even that guy smoking crack in DC, Marion Barry. I can document a 40-year campaign to limit black political power, in the cities, using cointelptro, and payoffs, etc. So all this is important but I was on another level w/ this story as well, because in the middle of this portrayl of ghetto-hood-Sharpe against the reasonable black, they point out how Sharpe's campaign is spreading anti-semitic accusations of Jewish rich people involved in this campaign to buy the government in Newark, they even go so far as to show NOI cartoons w/ hook nose banker types, of course there are rich jews in real estate in Newark, but they are certainly not the predominant party in the political strtucture on the white pro-business side by any means, and they are vastly outweighed by the liberal jews in the surrounding counties to Newark, the ones the program is trying to scare into dismissing cooperative tactical alliances with black politicians... So this is sure to scare the PBS-Jews against these black mayors, and of course someone of the more leftist pro-black opposition for example is going to actually see this PBS thing for the racist piece it is, but will tie in the Jew angle, and where that came from is a NOI/Farrakhan operation that is huge in Newark. Working with PBS/NPR. The controllers are creating not only the problems, but controlling the dissenting analysis to conform to the (Jewish in this case) scapegoat. A more honest take on the manipulation of the perception of Jew-Power is necessary to deal w/ this level. You don't have that consciousness. Some are starting to get it on this board, though. I mean this is obviously the major issue they are pushing both in the ghettos, on the 9/11 conpiracy groups, in Germany and all over Europe, certainly in the Middle East, and in Asia w/ the statements by the prime minister of Malaysia, obviously a world-wide meme. Terror perpetrated by CIA terrorists, with the blame ready to be pinned. And your choice is...Muslims....or Jews.....hmm, think about how convenient it is in terms of people's psychologocal needs - sort of fast-food conspiracy theory for the cap that fits the head... Yet another falsehood is the casting of my role at RI as if it was to look for "coded language" to prove that RI is "overrun [funny choice of words, that I can't openly say why though] by anti-semites" . How can you seriously attempt to claim that coded language was at the heart of this post, the one I was responding to: I'm quoting the key portion of the article Watchful Citizen posted here -- approvingly -- in the middle of the thread where modern US left-leader Ramsey Clarke's rushing to the bedside of every dying Nazi war criminal he can and the Nazi-Islamo-fascist alliances were being revealed. Possibly the most important thread on this board ever. Even though afterwards he said "oh, those weren't my words." saying "HEY. That was a SOURCEWATCH snip of SOMEONE ELSE." Um, so I should assume you were dis-approving of the implication embodied in the quote? Fucking disingenuous liar! WC's original post: <blockquote>Quote:<hr>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Why would Iraq attack America or use nuclear weapons against us? I'll tell you what I think the real threat (is) and actually has been since 1990 -- it's the threat against Israel," Zelikow told a crowd at the University of Virginia on Sep. 10, 2002, speaking on a panel of foreign policy experts assessing the impact of 9/11 and the future of the war on the al-Qaeda terrorist organisation. "And this is the threat that dare not speak its name, because the Europeans don't care deeply about that threat, I will tell you frankly. And the American government doesn't want to lean too hard on it rhetorically, because it is not a popular sell," said Zelikow. The statements are the first to surface from a source closely linked to the Bush administration acknowledging that the war, which has so far cost the lives of nearly 1200 U.S. troops and thousands of Iraqis, was motivated by Washington's desire to defend the Jewish state.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<hr></blockquote> Um, hello!!!!!! I repeat my response: <blockquote>Quote:<hr>I dispute that Zelikow's statement leads to that conclusion, and I question your motivations in trying to mis-portray it in that way. He's actually being factually accurate, there. a) "Israel" as it is now is doomed, it's a pariah in the "world community", under a 40+ year threat of invasion from it's neighbors, and dissolving it's national sovereignty -- no matter how much one feels it was unjustly obtained -- is the prime toe-hold of the NWO. b) Europeans don't support Israel, not to mention the stain of spasmodic Euro-Jew scapegoating that has never really been attoned for. Sure it's a "hard sell" in the US, Americans are very wary of the corruption of their government, and when led to see certain outside forces as paritcularly responsible, are eager to fall for it, it's very psychological in the US. Sure the US doesn't want to "lean on it" too much, because in the long run they don't actually support it in the long run,but a little leaning now don't hurt to throw people off the track.. So to quote this sentence as a conclusion on the war on Iraq is more than just "a stretch", it shows something very malicious. To me, WC is quite obviously playing into a frankly despicable and "treasonous" historical scapegoating that has been perpetrated on the US public for many, many years in many, many forms. So WC has no problem whipping up the spectre of foreign-infiltration and Jewish "fifth columns" as well (and ultimately better than) any "war on (Muslim) terror", despite the fact that it is leading vast numbers of otherwise intelligent folks 180 degress away from the center of the real conspiracy. No matter how wrong it was then, or it is now. Has WC come here to be rigorously self-credibilizing, yet spreading some of the deepest of limited hangout....Yikes! The concept that "Washington" was actually motivated by a desire to defend the Jewish state when they invaded Iraq is demonstrably false.... As an example, the most recent dual letters signed by more than a hundred "former" CIA and MI-6 "diplomats", taking a strong "anti-Israel" stance, and demanding Bush and Blair force a US-mediated "UN settlement" immediately, is indicative of the real views of the "establishment", and part of an elaborate push-pull stage show being orchestrated to foll the US-Euro intellectuals. Now, most people in the US will be primed to probably see that as some genuine factional conflict within the "establishment". But these veteran intelligence assets and agents are in no way "outsiders". And the factions are false straw men. The real conspiracy, the one that even hardcore David Icke fans and hollow-earthers poo-poo, is the consiracy that posits the entire "neo-con" vs the "old guard" farce. It is a charade, people. Do "factions" exist? Absolutely. Is there an Israeli Zionist "5th column" inside the US? Certainly. Are there Jews and "Christian Zionists" who would defend the existence of the state of Israel by "any means necessary", and align themselves with whichever party they see will -- in their limited, short-term way -- "protect" Israel. Yes. There is another level, however, a more important level -- much closer to the source of power -- who are manipulating those "friends of Israel", both from the left and the right. These "neo-cons" are actually committed globalists and fascists, and an effect of their overall world goals should be seen as anti-"Israeli". Heck, if there wasn't such a concerted campaign to put the focus on "Zionism-Israel", if the scapegoating "noise" coming from every quarter of the real establishment, establishment intellectuals, academia, and the faux counter-culture wasn't so obviously loud, if there wasn't so much daily spreading of sophisticated, subtle and insidious blame-"Zionists" (defenders of a Jewish nationalist identity)...so incredibly systematically -- then people would be able to clearly assess the way the current reality is progressing. They'd see that Zelikow, and the "neo-cons", are more traitors to Israel than supporters -- if by "supporting Israel" you mean eventually seeing a continuation of a sovereign socialist state founded to provide refuge and national identity to the post-holocaust Jewish diaspora, backed by jewish "affirmative action" in any future amalgamation that might be negotiated by the dominant world powers. Of course the issue will be milked for years by the NWO -- as long as possible -- and the US-backed "fifth column" in Israel will continue to illegally and unpopularly retain power and act as provacateurs in the region, despite the will of the vast number of Israelis for a reasonable peace. To say you are being lied to is not being "patronizing". If you think we're not exposed to the deepest of "bad memes" here, if you think that you're so well-innoculated against disinfo, if you don't think that the most insidious and dangerously subtle purveyors of lies are in the academia, the counter-culture, NPR-PBS-BBC-Pacifica, and the conspiracy crowd, fuck patronizing -- you're risking being both pompous and naive, not to mention complicit in spreading fascism. Yeah, go check what is dominant and popular in those NPR/PBS/Academia circles, and it's there you're going to find the real "deep black lies". There are many more substantial and dangerous lies from that community, the community leading either consciously, subconsciously, and many completely unwittingly (ever notice how many left-wing US jews make up many of the leadership positions in anti-Israel activist groups like the ISM, and the Palestinian support groups? Kind of puts the lie to the idea of a "monlithic jewish bloc", huh?) the "look-over-here-at Israel/Palestine" meme, than from, say, FOX. The Israeli "5th column" is no where near as influential as the non-"Zionist"-faux or non-religious extremely Nazified fascists that make up the vast bulk of the "establishment". The real "5th column" in a democracy is capitalism. And who's that you ask? That's daddy Bush, and James Baker, and the humongous dominant lineage of state dept. officials, ambassadors, foreign service officers, CIA agents, generals, etc. that have truly "sold the US out", to world wide globalized fascism, via groups like the virulently-anti-semitic World Anti-Communist League. These are the guys that burned the Jews in the ovens. And notice that I don't say "The Arab Lobby"...Just like with the "Israeli lobby", my life-long study of political history and acceptance of all elements of "the truth", shows me that to see any of the real elites as "traitors" or "5th columnists" to global capitalist US-based world government, is pretty flawed, considering they represent the core of our US-based capitalist system, and always have. Don't think for a minute that Zelikow, working intimately with virulently-anti-semitic fascists like the ARVN officer corps, spreading racial divide-and-conquer, best friends of the Nazi anti-communists, is seconding his allegiance to global fascism over concern for Israeli citizens. Don't think for a minute that daddy's intimate Brent Scrowcroft is really any kind of "outsider", and not merely playing a role in one of the deepest charades known to history....<hr></blockquote> You say : "I DON"T HIT PEOPLE WITH BASEBALL BATS OR LOVE NAZIS". More straw-man disingenuoius mis-casting of the point by Watchful Citizen. Um. NOBODY SAID YOU HIT PEOPLE WITH BASEBALL BATS OR LOVE NAZIS. What they said was that you are spreading subtle divide-and-conquer memes and red herrings. Deal with the issues, don't distract. Print that out and tape it to your computer for future reference. Spin-doctor! Liar! Anti-fascist rhetoric is not enough. My intuition is good. Sorry, I don't trust you one bit.

by **Watchful Citizen** » Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:05 pm

>>I wrote the stuff below before just giving up on you, proldic. I hereby give up on you. I've better things to do.<< ---------------------------------------- I don't even know where to begin with you, proldic. You just called me a: "Fucking disingenuous liar!" Ok, it seems from what you've revealed about your current adversity (I empathize) that you're taking it out on this board, just as other users have warned me. Please, not more Fire Pit material. (Psy-ops #1 tenet: People need visible targets for their frustrations.) You repeatedly omit the original link to a thread where you mischaracterize my post where I agree with you on the danger of Zelikow with a linked excerpt from SourceWatch.com which partly made sense but with another part which I didn't examine closely and can't even explain the meaning of! nevermind understand how you declare it is stealth anti-semitism. Yet you write that my going indepth on the 1984 media's psy-ops use of Jesse Jackson calling NYC "hymietown" is another stealth racist smear on my part??? That shows just how far off your racism detector is, proldic. Fourth party quotes are mountains of racist intent while actual overt bigotry is irrelevent by your standards because if I wrote it, it must be a trick. Unh...hunh. Deliver the link to the original thread where you mentioned Zelikow now or stop twisting it up and insulting me. Your comments are unwarranted, unsubstantiated, and counter-productive to understanding. In this here thread I discussed militarism exploiting economic necessity in the United States of Apartheid and gave detailed links and a balanced discussion of how leaders try to dual with power and walk in the spotlight of psy-ops, smears, and even assassination while negotiating with dangerous elite. I even shared some personal experience against my better judgement to remain as anonymous as possible these days because I do have extremely relevant experience which is unique to my profession and know the commonly held position "what the hell do you know about being black, you white person? Don't patronize me. You can't know." But hey-do this out of intellectual honesty, ok? When you clip, paste, and mischaracterize things I've posted PUT...THE...LINK.to the original thread to back up your analysis because it needs it. Because what you've done is totally decontextualized an old post I can't even find now and made completely WRONG characterizations. DreamsEnd made the same error of omission in starting a thread to challenge me to declare I'm not a Larouchie cultist in the guise of starting a thread (very informative thread by the way) on Larouche. DE characterized my comments on Larouche without a link to the actual comments in context. And you've just snowballed this error repeatedly. Ever tune a guitar by tuning each string to the string before it? Don't. You accumalate errors when you don't reference a base pitch for all. This perfectly analogizes what you've done, proldic. I'm now searching for and failing to find the original thread which had subjects all over the map where YOU brought up Zelikow and I agreed he was dangerous and copied and pasted in a SourceWatch.com (very progressive site) excerpt on him that included some reporter's odd analysis about the reason for going into Iraq which you are ascribing to me as my secret intended message.?? You are grasping at straw molecules, not straw men. Why SourceWatch had that comment, I don't know and I didn't even read it closely when I copied the material above it and was all too trusting of SourceWatch's website editorial decisions which I've used before.. It seemed innocuous enough at a glance but it set you off non-stop on a witch hunt where you now characterize discussing the past in depth as "dredging up old memes" and demean my personal experiences as shallow and irrelevent. You have no idea....this is what has made me realize you are not able to have a dialogue worth continuing. I have put my health and career on the line over principles of complicity with war and survival and spent years in the same survival boat with every color of human. For the record, anyone who doesn't think the US invasion of the middle east has anything to do with something other than oil and the PNAC's extension of Nazi plans to take over the world is simply not paying attention. The US helped create the Nazi party that almost wiped Jews out and Israel intelligence no doubt keeps that in mind when they deal with CIA which used Nazi war criminals as assetts for decades. Why on earth you would claim that everyone must know Jared Israel's work on 9/11, I can't imagine. But it sure proves something to you about me, ay? (Your reasoning is so flawed I wonder why I even try. Oh, because you slandered me viciously and repeatedly as a racist.) You didn't respond to me in that original thread when I pointed out that he excoriates Ramsey Clark as a Nazi-lover for criticising the Offiice of Special Investigations and then does exactly the same thing. But his info on the US using Klaus Barbie as an agent in South America was helpful and I added that to my files. So thanks, Jared, for that. As for 9/11, my info comes from other sources and I relentlessly tell everyone I know about false-flag terror used to justify economic wars. Would you like to punch my card to certify 'I know and tell'? Having been accused of malevolent intent, of course my instinct is to rebut with evidence. I can't find the original thread with your comments on Zelikow I ageed with and set you off forever by copying and pasting more than necessary from SourceWatch.com to amplify Zelikow's background. So I'll put in a few RI thread links I posted in that I can find including a discussion of where anti-semitism comes from, what black AND white leaders do and don't reveal to their constituents. I make the same criticism of Bill Moyers that I make of Cornell West-not telling all they know. I re-post these threads for you because I understand you haven't been around and don't read everything I post here. We have different posting cycles so dialogue is difficult and now I see pointless with you. Still for anyone else who gives a damn and got a face full of your venomous accusations at me... (I discuss the topic some more with Israelirealities about witholding information about the CIA from people by Bill Moyers, Cornell West, and even Project Censored. C'mon, proldic, you know how sophisticated the topic of inadvertant or overt left-gatekeeping is. You've slung quite a few arrows in that direction yourself. And everyone is accusing everyone for a perfect COINTELPRO house of mirrors effect. The levels of knowledge are so varied that it's hard to discern who really knows what.) ------------------------- <a href="http://p216.ezboard.com/frigorousintuitionfrm10.showMessage?topicID=1298.topic">p216.ezboard.com/frigorou...1298.topic</a> Title: Conceptual Guerilla econ ammo essays, started by AnnaLivia Israelirealities: Re: Oh, and I think there are already too many fables around "thank you watchful, It sounds like a real description of the divide and rule tactics, and the recruitment of the poor to the military complex. I don't share your criticism of Jackson, who is probably looking for the most responsible way to lead his flock. The afro americans are truly being starved and oppressed, i have seen it and couldn't believe what I saw, like the life in SOuth Central LA, for instance. MLK was like the Ghandi, and Jackson is someone who has to take care of the food. It is a very hard dillemma, how much to resist and how much to collaborate with the very complexes that oppress you. There is also a question of timing, namely, when is a good time to rebell and when to be accomplice. How much to move ahead of your time/group, and how much to stay with them. I have had those hesitations with people I represented as lawyer, like indigenous tribes here in Israel (Bedouins). WHen the difference in power is so huge, you have to be really careful, cause the price is heavy, for the people out there. I had a few blazing legal victories in land disputes, against the government, sure, it was sweet and happy for a while, but the clients were retaliated against for years, and I think all in all, they lost more than they gained. ANd after all, when people are poor, the government can always harrass them forever, they never run of personnel or "memory". While the Afro Americans are under using their actual power, in my opinion, perhaps Jacksson knows their limitations right now. As for the organized Jews of America, while they might have been set up against the afroamericans and vice versae, as CIA tactics, still they cannot be exempt from responsibility for their quick assimilation into the ruling rich classes. Nothing to say more, its just inexcusable. They also do the same to the ISraelis whom they view as "inferior/lazy/prarsites/not trying enough" (the regular capitalist hate speech), and one can hardly blame the CIA for that (or maybe yes ?). It is an organized corruption of affluent people who forgot where they came from and where they are going to. Money, quick money, can do that. of course, this only with regards to the establishment, as there are individual Jews and groups of all kinds, many of whom work for social justice, I hear." Watchful Citizen: " Re: Israelirealities on the difficulty of resist vs comply Israelirealities wrote in response to my post about Pentagon-Corporate ties to the NAACP and Jesse Jackson's RainbowPUSH Coalition: "It is a very hard dillemma, how much to resist and how much to collaborate with the very complexes that oppress you. There is also a question of timing, namely, when is a good time to rebell and when to be accomplice. How much to move ahead of your time/group, and how much to stay with them." Well put And thanks for the affirmation of this balancing act under oppression elsewhere.. I'm very hard on ALL intellectuals and leaders who fail to tell their audiences exactly who runs America and how so they know how the system is rigged but MORE IMPORTANTLY so people will then tell others about the cryptocracy that uses psy-ops to divide Americans from each other and set them to war, eugenics, and environmental destruction. Example: Cornell West. I love hearing him speak. Very inspiring, righteous, literary, etc. He does a speaking tour every February, Black History Month, and I hear him twice in my area. Example: Bill Moyers. I love to hear him speak, too. And in his defense, he did make a documentary video back during Bush I about the secret government. Amazing. But, as the saying goes, what has he done lately with his high visibility? At this year's media reform conference in St. Louis, not one single person-including Moyers- mentioned the CIA's media control program called Operation Mockingbird. BUT. Like Jesse Jackson, he must know what I know about CIA control of the media and government and does not tell his audience what is going on! I find this outrageous. To hold back on information people need to defend themselves and grow a resistance is to perpetuate the oppression by keeping the secrets of its hidden mechanisms. I'm even critical of Project Censored with their annual list of 25 stifled news stories that just draw chalk outlines around the bodies of killed stories without telling Americans that it was revealed in the 1975 Church Senate Committee Hearings on CIA Abuses that the CIA was in our media controlling what we know and believe! Where is anyone with visibility transmitting this crucial information to the American public? Meanwhile, the CIA is getting big PR over Plamegate as if the CIA hasn't been committing the atrocities the neocons are guility of FOR DECADES. So resignation to a criminal gang running the USA is setting in and I intend to hold leaders feet to the fire of criticism to get them to speak up." Israelirealities: " Re: Israelirealities on the difficulty of resist vs comply I do agree with you that the main crime is withholding the information so that people cannot form their own opinions. AS for the CIA, I just want to inform you how it is interpreted in our region. The CIA (under Tenet) and Department of State are the "doves" and the Pentagon and NSA are the Hawk. So, in terms of Middle East policies, CIA is considered the "good guys" that we, namely, those who oppose the war in Iraq, should support to lend this group power against the other guys who are the true "villains". I am always accused (in Israel as well, among the lefties) as being too lenient on certain leaders like Jackson who don't go all the way. Perhaps it is my life experiences that showed me that sometimes there's a lot of rhetoric but when it comes to reality, not many people will back such a bold action. And then, actually, one wastes their life/leverage on a futile struggle that fails anyway (my personal story, as well). Am I already a defeatist ? maybe. ITs just that I have seen too much suffering, death and pain inflicted on people by the PTB, it can be cruel. And my own suffering shaped my consciousness as well. Recently, same debates here with respect to weekly protests in a certain west bank village. every week the people come from ISrael to support the locals, the demonstration takes place, a lot of violence and arrests, most of the victims are Palestinians. I am challenging, because the price people pay for a demonstration that really had very little effect on reality, is HUGE. Another death, another life long entanglement with IDF and GSS, this is a life of daily misery and suffering, that will not be recorded in history. Just going down the drain, slowly and tortuously. But of course, if they don't protest, they will also suffer, maybe less dramatically. the real stakes i would say something more. Jesse Jackson and the likes, in order to really change the balance of power have to resort to violence and militant action. This will upset, totally, their expectations and lives for many years, I am not sure the people are ready. If they are not, then half measures are worse than cooperation. Because treading on the tail of the US dragon, with real racial riots, is a serious matter. The US government did not hesitate using the military in the LA riots, and I was there, and I had to evacuate my neighbourhood on a car, like a refugee to the Valley, and in the way I saw it all, I had plenty of time in the traffic that didn't move for hours. It was horrible, and it was nothing compared to what it can be. This was a shock for me, as an ISraeli. Is this the USA ? this looks like Gaza strip. Curfew ? and then I realized the Afroamericans do not know how much power they have, because they know only the USA. But then this is exactly the fact that the government knows also and uses every measure to prevent. So, its a dangerous situation by definition. I don't think this is a coincidence that the riots took place a year after the Gulf War." --------------------- <a href="http://p216.ezboard.com/frigorousintuitionfrm10.showMessage?topicID=1231.topic">p216.ezboard.com/frigorou...1231.topic</a> Title: Let Me Get This Straight, started by DreamsEnd Watchful Citizen: " Thanks for that summary. I'll send that to friends. Agent provocateur Patsy Mole Watchdog left Good cop bad cop Poison pill Limited hang out When the mirrors start to eat up all the light, I remind myself: "There are those people who kill for money, and there are those who don't." And then my focus usually comes back. And I look for the CIA and Pentagon tapping into Biderman's Chart of Coercion by using morality theater to justify inequality and atrocity on the part of the government.. (Might make a good thread topic-"What are your bedrock principles in critical thinking and research?" ) " ----------------------------------- <a href="http://p216.ezboard.com/frigorousintuitionfrm10.showMessage?topicID=1222.topic">p216.ezboard.com/frigorou...1222.topic</a> Title: 1943 OSS Psy-Ops manual by Wm. Donovan. A must read. Started by me, Watchful Citizen. Watchful Citizen: " Arundhati Roy warned that NGOs are preventing change. Interesting comments on foundations. Imbedded culture, imbedded citizens... Arundhati Roy recently warned that non-governmental organizations were providing just enough resources to ameliorate the consequences of bad government (social services, food, shelter, medicine, etc.) while absorbing the energy of local people who might otherwise be working to replace or reform the bad government. The watchdog left phenomenon is a mind-opener that qualifies as just as important as divide-and-conquer as a control mechanism. I wish all Americans could understand that the myth of the 'liberal media' is a watchdog left construct that conceals a state-controlled press, Bob Woodward being the most famous bird who mocks the First Amendment." ----------------------------- <a href="http://p216.ezboard.com/frigorousintuitionfrm35.showMessageRange?topicID=7.topic&start=41&stop=47">p216.ezboard.com/frigorou...41&stop=47</a> Title: Where Does Anti-Semitism Come From, started by Thumperton Watchful Citizen/HughManateeWins: "**A note on my username-I should've registered when I was posting as unregistered Watchful Citizen. When I tried to recently, I found that the username was taken for ez-board users and so was Hugh Manatee, my progressiveindependent.com username. So I Chose Hugh Manatee Wins to try to get continuity and 'own' my postings since this site went into accusatory implosion recently apparently as vigilance against suspected racists, a worthy battle sometimes erroneously fought against allies...like me.** Here's a bunch of articles that help to answer the question, WHY? rationalrevolution.net/ar...ascism.htm (Fascism Part I: Understanding Fascism and Anti-Semitism) and this is the must-read sequel: rationalrevolution.net/ar...ascism.htm (Fascism Part II: The Rise of American Fascism) I also recommend this history of Nazis in America: www.spiritone.com/~gdy52150/noon.html (The Nazi Hydra In America) To understand why people embrace fascism, learn about the 'authoritarian personality' which was determined in the 1950s to be at the root of fascism in Spain, Italy, Germany, and Japan. And, of course, here in the USA: www.anesi.com/fscale.htm (The F Scale, Final Form) The above site allows one to take a quiz to determine your own susceptibility to fascism based on personality. This is part of why corporations now use personality tests in hiring. They want to know how likely you are to obey orders and knuckle under to the boss. The psychology of behavior is a prime focus of the US military which wants the civilian population to follow leaders as though they were good little soldiers and 'conservativism' is considered the desirable attitude for uncritical followers. This article goes into the study of what comprises the 'conservative' personality: www.berkeley.edu/news/med...tics.shtml (What Makes a Political Conservative) There are many more articles on like topics here: www.socialpsychology.org/ (The Social Psychology Network) Unfortutely, Hitler had an intuitive sense of how to whip up the emotions of the masses towards his ends and wrote about it in Mein Kampf. Goebbels used principles of group behavior outlined by the 'father of propaganda,' Edward Bernays: thirdworldtraveler.com/Pr...rnays.html (Edward Bernays: Propaganda, 1928) The American eastern elite who formed the Council on Foreign Relations to shape American foreign/economic policy (see General Smedley Butler's essay 'War is a Racket') had gotten ahold of Mein Kampf and translated it to see what in it was useful to them in manipulating the public, a new tactic of economic warfare. The CFR didn't release the English version of Mein Kampf until 1939 when rousing isolationist Americans against Hitler, a customer who had grown faster than intended, became necessary: www.geocities.com/Capitol...itler.html (The CFR and Mein Kampf) The American Office of Special Services and it's Nazified offspring, the Central Intelligence Agency have amplified and honed the black science of emotional manipulation through media as outlined in this 1943 OSS manual on WWII 'Morale Operations' (now called psychological operations) written by General William Donovan: www.icdc.com/~paulwolf/os...ec1943.htm (Provisional Basic Field Manual -- Morale Operations, Dec. 21, 1943, first 36 pages) The E=mc2 root of all human experience that CIA mind control exploits is codified in something called Biderman's Chart of Coercions. These are the eight tactics used to bend human will, either by parents on children or by interrogators on 'detainees' at Gitmo Bay torture colony. Originally defined by military psychologists in the 1950s to explain what had happened to US Korean War prisoners held by the Chinese, the list was later seen to be what domestic abusers (usually men) did to their abusees (usually women). When I found this chart as the Abu Ghraib torture story first broke, I recognized that these coercions were what every human child experiences at the hands of parents, teachers, coaches, bosses, etc. as part of the 'socialization process.' Likewise, this is what the CIA secret media government tries to tap into with emotional manipulation to produce the three 'D's--Dread, Debility, and Dependence as a control mechanism of fascist governance: www.actabuse.com/chartofcoercion.html (Biderman's Chart of Coercion) Following this line of reasoning to how it plays out in adult political language, cognitive scientist George Lakoff describes how the formative experience of the family is what determines how people judge other people as either a 'strict father' or 'nurturing parent' and conservatives (with help from CIA-backed scientists and pr industry) have hijacked the image of the 'strict father' which resembles a fuhrer while anti-war liberals have been trying to figure out why the 'conservative' public embraces abusive policies and lies repeatedly. www.berkeley.edu/news/med...koff.shtml (George Lakoff: How Conservatives Use Language) www.zmag.org/content/show...temID=4294 (George Lakoff: Let Them Eat War) OK, I think that's enough for now on WHY. More later" ----------------------------------- <a href="http://p216.ezboard.com/frigorousintuitionfrm35.showMessage?topicID=13.topic">p216.ezboard.com/frigorou...D=13.topic</a> Title: Hitler and Protocols, started by Not Zundel. Watchful Citizen: " Yup. 'The Protocols' is false-flag attribution at work. Thanks for re-posting this history of ascribing a document used by ruling elite to some of the very people they tried to annihilate. An epic and tragically perpetuated smear act that leads to blaming the victims, a psy-ops tactic that works all too well. I first read about the French satire later used by the Russian Czar to smear Jews in Jim Marrs' book 'Rule By Secrecy' which I think does a good job of showing that deceptive control tactics have a history of being transmitted through the ages and tagged on to the wrong people, just like 'the liberal press' is actually the CIA's best cover story for psy-ops promoting militarism and hiding government atrocity.. Another scape-goating-of-Jews-as-distraction tactic is the 'Jewish banker'-meme which is meant to divert attention to from the word BANKER and put it on 'Jewish.' This is the classic magician's trick of getting people to look at the wrong hand. The root of war and oppression-MONEY and the BANKERS who finance wars are hidden in an idealogical fog made up of a misrepresented cast of characters to keep people from seeing that elite groups, not the masses, are the sole beneficiaries of institutionalized violence as war. I just found a new book (at Borders!) called 'U.S. Intelligence and the Nazis' which expands on many of the OSS and CIA documents released as a result of the 1998 Nazi War Crimes Disclosure Act. BUT this book was back in the shelves. To counter the revelation earlier this year that the CIA hired five of Adolph Eichmann's assistants, the table of 'New Non-Fiction' at the front door had a book about a British lord someone-or-other who was a Nazi sympathizer. Another case of 'look at this hand not this hand'-ism. Border is filled with propaganda covering up US government crimes. It is a huge industry because there's so much to cover up." ------------------------------- <a href="http://p216.ezboard.com/frigorousintuitionfrm10.showMessage?topicID=1782.topic">p216.ezboard.com/frigorou...1782.topic</a> Title: AOL is filtering this content in my emails-'CFR and CIA', started by Watchful Citizen. Watchful Citizen: " First, a warning: AOL is filtering THIS content out of my emails. I can't send this to an AOL address the last two days. Content like "support our troops" and "God Bless America" went right through. But this link or keywords returned it as "delivery failure." So use the internet while you still can. Related, here's some history of who runs American media and to what ends. The Council on Foreign Relations uses CIA control of media as one large psy-ops project to achieve what the military terms 'Stability Operations.' WWII Nazi radio propaganda tactics were studied by Edward Murrow and many others to assist the Council on Foreign Relations in running the US media (and entire culture)as a military psychological operations project. We really are living Orwell's 1984. Happy Halloween in the House of Horrors. <a href="http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/2807/emspecial.html">www.geocities.com/Capitol...ecial.html</a> >snip< In the 1950's Psychological operations, were coordinated by a Governmental agency called the Psychological Strategy Board. The architect of the Psychological Strategy Board was Gordon Gray. Gray had a consultant named Henry Kissinger. Kissinger was the paid political consultant to the Rockefeller family. Gordon Gray, Henry Kissinger, and many members of the Rockefeller family belonged the Council on Foreign Relations. On Thursday 26 July 1951, President Truman would tell the press that the Psychological Strategy board was a part of the Central Intelligence Agency. <10> In the book 1984 Big Brother controlled the people by invading their privacy and using psychological manipulation to control and change reality through conscious deception, deliberate lying, and an official ideology that abounded in contradictions. Council on Foreign Relations and Royal Institute of International Affairs members employ the same techniques to control people -- including their fellow countrymen. Hadley Cantril and Lloyd Free were Princeton University Social Psychologists; researchers; and members of the intelligence community. Council on Foreign Relations Member Nelson Rockefeller funded them to develop psycho-political policy strategies and techniques. Council on Foreign Relations Member Edward R. Murrow, would, with Rockefeller Foundation Funding conduct a research project to perform a systematic analysis of Nazi radio propaganda techniques and the political use of radio. This study would result in a world wide monitoring and broadcasting Government agency called the Foreign Broadcast Intelligence Service (FBIS). The FBIS would become the United States Information Agency (USIA). The USIA was established to achieve US foreign policy by influencing public attitude at home and abroad using psycho-political policy strategies. The USIA Office of Research and reference service prepares data on psychological factors and propaganda problems considered by the Policy Planning Board in formulating psycho-political information policies for the National Security Council. The Psychological Strategy Board became the renamed super-powered Operations Coordinating Board (OCB). The OCB had a vague ambiguous name that didn't provoke curiosity. It had more members than the Psychological Strategy board. It had the same mission, to use psychological strategy, propaganda, and mass media, to manipulate huge groups of individuals. It had a psychological warfare machine -- the United States Information Agency at its disposal. The USIA would be responsible for foreign policy propaganda for the NSC. The National Security Council is responsible for recommending national security policy. The President for having the policy approved. The Operations Coordinating Board for coordinating interdepartmental aspects of operational policy plans to insure their timely and coordinated execution. The National Security Council's recommended national security policy is the de facto foreign policy of the United States.The Department of State's Policy Planning Board scripted the policy for the NSC. The USIA Office of Research and Reference service prepared data on psychological factors and propaganda problems. The Policy Planning Board used the data in formulating psycho-political information policies for the NSC. In 1955 the Director of the USIA became a voting member of the Operations Coordinating board; USIA representatives were invited to attend meetings of the NSC Planning Board; and the USIA Director was invited to Cabinet meetings. <11> From 1950-1953 CFR member Nitze directed the Department of State Policy Planning Board. Nitze and crew scripted psycho-political operations for the National Security Council. <12 > >snip< more... ----------------------

by **heath7** » Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:38 pm

I for one would be thrilled to read every detail of any community event or public access show anybody on here organises. Hopefully your exploits would add fuel to the flame under my own ass. Jeff, are you working out the kinks for RI TV yet? I'd gladly offer to help fill the schedule. Maybe a Ken Burns style documentary about Paul Wellstone, or a deeper digging Daily Show impression<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D"> Just a thought...

by **Byrne** » Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:44 pm

WatchfulC, I'm with you on this - I cannot follow his logic/way of thinking. You lay your thoughts down & he just trashes you. It appears an ensnarement to me. Why is this happening here, it appears to becoming more prevalent ? The only answer I can think of reminds me of your post linking to the 1943 'Field Manual'.

Bringing it to the streets: Community Forums

Bringing it to the streets: Community Forums

Re: Bringing it to the streets: Community Forums

oolala

Reflections On A Landmark Event

Cool plan. A guerrilla education campaign. Absolutely.

Re: Cool plan. A guerrilla education campaign. Absolutely.

Dunno if it's in print, but check out...

Read L. Fletcher Prouty's 'The Secret Team' online.

Re: Read L. Fletcher Prouty's 'The Secret Team' online.

Re: Bringing it to the streets: Community Forums

re: what to tell and to whom. Cuz I agree.

Re: Straw Dogs

Re: proldic calling me a "Fucking disingenuous liar!&qu

Re: Bringing it to the streets: Community Forums

activities

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