Dogs' ID chips question

by **havanagilla** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 3:29 pm

I was asked by a friend and fellow activist to help him invoke a legal objection to the municipal law that requires all dog owners to install an ID chip as a prerequisite to renew their license (dog license). The man resents this procedure on the grounds of animal rights and "anti big brother" arguments. I wonder if anyone has a take on where to find reasoned objections. Or any other take. this is a "by law" so normally it can be repealed or challenged by constitutional "meta rules" or any civil rights, human rights arguments. Intuitively, the chips seem wrong to me. any ideas?

by **mother** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 4:05 pm

We just got a gorgeous new dog from the shelter, and she was chipped as part of preparation for adoption. Considering the fact that she was literally totally soaked in urine (very fluffy cocker spaniel) from head to toe, and unable to run or get upstairs due to tonail problems, the S.P.C.A. seems to be skewing their priorities. This chipping bothers me for a number of reasons which are regularly rehashed online. What I have always sensed, though is this similarity between the pet adoption world and the child adoption services. (except in a lot of cases the pets are better cared-for than foster children). We know by brutal experience that we'd better agree with everything the Social Services workers and psychologists say. And be prepared for what is not said, yet enforced. They have you in a corner if you've got some child you've fallen in love with and want to parent. They absolutely know this, how much power they weild over adoptive parents. What's to stop them from chipping kids if they find it "appropriate"? For all we know one of ours could already have a chip...We have no say whatsoever until adoptions are final, which can easily take up to 2 years with regard to medical care. Bracelets are already widely used. But the chip can't get lost. So what are adoptive parents going to say if a chip is part of the adoptive process? We have already submitted ourselves to a large amount of demeaning, intrusive, and disrespectful people and policies in order to adopt. Few people would object, so much is at stake. I think Col. Quisp had some experience in this area of law?

by **hmm** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 4:12 pm

epic has quite alot of information on rfid's,including useful links.. <a href="http://www.epic.org/privacy/rfid/">www.epic.org/privacy/rfid/</a> this might be useful to your friend,especially since its from a independant body with a legal basis at a local level in a western democracy,it was linked at epic,its from the ontario Information and Privacy Commissioner and its quite a comprehensive document: <a href="http://www.ipc.on.ca/scripts/index_.asp?action=31&P_ID=15007&N_ID=1&PT_ID=11351&U_ID=0">www.ipc.on.ca/scripts/ind...351&U_ID=0</a> <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Tag, You’re It: Privacy Implications of Radio Frequency Identification (RFID) Technology February 2004 <hr></blockquote> what the ontario Information and Privacy Commissioner is, and its legal status: <blockquote>Quote:<hr>About the Office of the Information and Privacy Commissioner/Ontario The role of the Information and Privacy Commissioner/Ontario (IPC) is set out in three statutes: the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act, the Municipal Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act, and the Personal Health Information Protection Act (the Acts). The IPC acts independently of government to uphold and promote open government and the protection of personal privacy. Under its statutory mandate, the IPC is responsible for: * resolving appeals from refusals to provide access to information; * investigating privacy complaints about information held by government organizations; * ensuring that the government organizations comply with the access and privacy provisions of the Acts; * educating the public about Ontario's access and privacy laws; and * conducting research on access and privacy issues, and providing advice and comment on proposed government legislation and programs. <hr></blockquote>

by **havanagilla** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 5:15 pm

hey, thank you both. started reading the materials hmmm, its one of those you are sorry you started with...scary stuff, especially the experiment with children being tracked in school with chips. This becomes clearer after reading Mother's post, and how we are manipulated to agree. I was quite surprised not to see any other country with similar laws re dogs. Is Tel Aviv the first city in the world to make is mandatory ? this would be a good argument in and of itself. But I will go on looking for more info. I think there is ample authorities to rely on in terms of privacy conerns. But he was more along the lines of "protecting the integrity of the body of the pet from invasion/medical assault" or something like that. on edit, just found an article about Oakland CA making it mandatory as well, from a few months ago <a href="http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/7/25/144314.shtml">www.newsmax.com/archives/...4314.shtml</a> Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=havanagilla>havanagilla</A> at: 4/9/06 3:19 pm

by **hmm** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 5:30 pm

if i understand the technology correctly a device that could scan the chip from a distance would not be legal due to the harmful effects (similar to the the discussion regarding cellphones). for example if you had a device to read the chip in a dog from a mile away,it could burn someone at close range.. its actually common in europe for pets: <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1906067.stm">news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1906067.stm</a> <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Tuesday, 2 April, 2002, 01:09 GMT 02:09 UK Pet passport scheme 'to include US' Britain's pet passport scheme could be extended to the US and Canada next year if ministers give the go-ahead, reports say. The scheme allows animals from an approved list of countries to avoid undergoing six-month quarantine periods. The two-year-old scheme currently operates for animals travelling from Europe, Australia, and Japan. <hr></blockquote> this is the current EU law: <a href="http://europa.eu.int/comm/food/animal/liveanimals/pets/nocomm_intra_en.htm">europa.eu.int/comm/food/a...tra_en.htm</a> <blockquote>Quote:<hr>IDENTIFICATION The animal shall be identified by an electronic identification system (transponder), or by a clearly readable tattoo. The tattoo, as a means of identification will only be accepted until 3 July 2011 and not for movements to the UK, Malta and Ireland (transponder obligatory). From 3 July 2011, the transponder will be the only identification system allowed..<hr></blockquote>

by **havanagilla** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 6:03 pm

PAWS Bill: Food for Thought ø÷ äåãòä 1 áðåùà æä - äöâ ëòõ ùåøùéí îàú: Judi Todd - äöâ ôøåôéì úàøéê: éåí øáéòé 1 îøõ 2006 08:33 ãåà"ì: Blugrass...@webtv.net (Judi Todd) ÷áåöåú: alt.pets.dogs.sharpei àéï ãéøåâãéøåâ: äöâ àôùøåéåú äùá ìàçø | ÷ãéîä | äãôñ | äåãòä áåããú | äöâ î÷åøé | ãååç òì ùéîåù ìøòä | îöà äåãòåú ùì îçáø æä Please sit down and take the time to read this. Far fetched? Hmmmmm, I don't think so. PAWS Food for Thought Date:Tue, 28 Feb 2006 22:34:20 -0500 September 22, 2005 The PAWS Bill - Show Me The Money, Microchips and Political Power PAWS - Show Me The Money! People have emailed me over the past several months ask when I will write about PAWS. Just where do I stand? Well that time, ladies and gentlemen, has arrived, so listen up, all you dog - and cat people - cause here it is.......... The PAWS bill, cleverly spun as the "puppy mill bill" (after all - who could oppose that?) , <<a href="http://santorum.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=PressOffice.Vi...>positioned">santorum.senate.gov/publi...positioned</a> by Santorum to protect pets, has greatly divided the purebred dog community, and other breeder groups as well. Well I say it's got little to do with pets and more to do with moolah. Why Is This Man Smiling? <<a href="http://dogpolitics.typepad.com/.shared/image.html?/photos/uncategoriz...>">dogpolitics.typepad.com/....egoriz...></a> Rick_santorum_r_pa So let's get something straight right now. No one in Washington, DC does anything without a self-serving motivation. No politician supports or opposes legislation without motivation. Rick Santorum is no exception. In Washington, that motivation is usually distilled down to just two things. Votes and money. Or money and votes. And as for the AKC, HSUS and PETA - the three key nonprofit players supporting the PAWS bill? Are they without motivation in their support of PAWS? Or are they selfless in their support? Well maybe it just boils down to money. After all, even nonprofits need to earn money to stay in business - they all need revenue - and really the only difference between them and Corporate America is their tax status. Next - ask yourself this..........why would such organizations - complete polar opposites (and almost sworn enemies) like the AKC, PETA and HSUS - line up together behind PAWS? So ask yourself this........ Do you really think PAWS is about keeping pets safe? Or saving the public from unscrupulous pet importers? Or shielding the pet-buying public from unscrupulous puppy mills? Do you think the AKC and PETA and the HSUS have now found a common cause - are they now sharing the love? Do they love Rick Santorum. Does he love them back? I'll tell you what kind of love they'll be sharing - the green kind. It's called money. Fuggetaboutit - there's ONLY ONE question that truly matters: Will the PAWS bill further endanger our freedom, our privacy, our constitutional rights? And IMHO - PAWS comes down to this..............Money, microchips and political power. Show me the money! Better yet - I'll show you. There's Gold In Them There Chips Now let's pretend I am one of the big players in microchips - say like <<a href="http://www.digitalangelcorp.com/>Digital">www.digitalangelcorp.com/>Digital</a> Angel, which is owned by <<a href="http://www.adsx.com/content/index.htm>Applied">www.adsx.com/content/index.htm>Applied</a> Digital Solutions, makers of the <<a href="http://www.epic.org/privacy/rfid/verichip.html>VeriChip">www.epic.org/privacy/rfid...l>VeriChip</a> and the HomeAgain Chip. And let's say that we want to speed up the sales process for <<a href="http://www.epic.org/privacy/rfid/>RFID">www.epic.org/privacy/rfid/>RFID</a> microchips - after all - there's a pretty big untapped market out there. Just how big is that market & how much money can be made with microchips? There are close to 73.9 million pet dogs and 90.5 million cats in the USA alone, according to the APPMA - the American Pet Products Manufacturer's Association. And according to<<a href="http://www.adsx.com/content/index.htm>">www.adsx.com/content/index.htm></a> Applied Digital Technologies site - about 1 million pets are "protected" with their products. Money Markets That leaves about 163 million pets that have not yet been microchipped. And that, dear readers, translates to a HUGE UNTAPPED market $$$$$$ - just ripe for the picking. OK - raise your hand if you like math! Just for fun - let's do the math - and let's assume an average retail price of $35 per chip implantation procedure. Ready? 163,000,000 pets x $35 = $5,705,000,000. Whoa, baby - 5.7 billion - that's a hunka hunk of burning love for the <<a href="http://www.akccar.org/news/news_032005.cfm>AKC,">www.akccar.org/news/news_032005.cfm>AKC,</a><<a href="http://www.helpinganimalscom/h-microchip.html>">www.helpinganimalscom/h-microchip.html></a> PETA and HSUS to share. And while we must point out that the AKC does not directly market the HomeAgain Chip. "As of February 3, 2005, the enrollment form in the HomeAgain® microchip packaging no longer is an AKC CAR enrollment form. Consumers now have a choice to enroll with the nation's largest non-profit recovery service provider, AKC CAR, or with other less experienced, "for-profit" recovery services." And at $12.50 a pop - that ain't chicken feed. But is that because the <<a href="http://www.usda.gov/wps/portal/!ut/p/_s.7_0_A/7_0_1OB/.cmd/ad/.ar/sa....>USDA's">www.usda.gov/wps/portal/!......>USDA's</a> National Animal Identification System as becoming a MANDATORY program but allowing privatization of the data? The HomeAgain chip - <<a href="http://www.homeagainid.com/about/terms.cfm>now">www.homeagainid.com/about/terms.cfm>now</a> marketed by Schering Plough Animal Health, is made by Digital Angel, an Applied Technology Solutions company. Microchip Madness? While I'm on the subject of Money Markets, what is one of the most interesting items on the AKC site about the Third Annual AKC Lobby Day? Here's an excerpt: <<a href="http://www.akc.org/news/index.cfm?article_id=2629>Sessions">www.akc.org/news/index.cf...9>Sessions</a> included in-depth information about the federal legislative process, tips for effectively lobbying a Member of Congress, and substantial issue briefings on three key agenda items: strengthening enforcement of the Animal Welfare Act through support of PAWS, encouraging open access to microchip technology for animal identification, and assuring access to air transport for dogs and those traveling with their animals. All three of the AKC Lobby Day agenda items lead to microchips. Has the AKC has become a corporate shill for <<a href="http://www.vcall.com/IC/GenRelease.asp?ID=92826>Digital">www.vcall.com/IC/GenRelea...26>Digital</a> Angel? Or is controlling the data more important. The Players Now - back to the deal - if I were Digital Angel/Applied Digital Technologies - the first thing I would do would be to identify the largest channels for distribution- meaning sales - in the US. If we were to look at the U.S. dog or cat market for microchips, first we would need to find out who the biggest players are, and get them on our side. Can you guess, boys and girls - who those players are? That's right. That would be the AKC, PETA and HSUS - because they each have the largest constituencies or access to the data of pet owners in the U.S. How To Become A Government Contractor In One Easy Step Next - I would do what any red-blooded American corporation does when it wants to drive sales in a really big way. * One - sell to the government and * Two - ensure that every pet in the country has a chip in it. In other words - make my product MANDATORY. First - whatcha gotta do is hire up a really big government heavyweight for a spokesperson. Then make sure t0 use that former government employee to help sell back into the government. Works for Lockheed Martin every time and it sure worked for the smoke detector manufacturers. Digital Angel's Hired Heavyweight Hand <<a href="http://dogpolitics.typepad.com/.shared/image.html?/photos/uncategoriz...>">dogpolitics.typepad.com/....egoriz...></a> Tommy_thompson_1 That's why Digital Angel (Applied Digital Solutions) named <<a href="http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/ticker/article.asp?Symbol=US:ADSX&Fe...>Tommy">news.moneycentral.msn.com...e...>Tommy</a> Thompson - former Bush Cabinet Member & Secretary of Health & Human Services onto its Board Of Directors. What's worrisome to many and has raised privacy concerns from medical and constitutional <<a href="http://www.eff.org/Privacy/Surveillance/RFID/>privacy">www.eff.org/Privacy/Surve...D/>privacy</a> experts - is that Digital Angel has plans - big plans - <<a href="http://www.digitalangelcorp.com/about_pressreleases.asp?RELEASE_ID=183>iincluding">www.digitalangelcorp.com/...iincluding</a> a mandatory database to track all livestock in the country. Do you think it would be a huge leap to track all pets & pet owners in the US? It's exactly what Gordon Stull, DVM wants - remember <<a href="http://dogpolitics.typepad.com/my_weblog/2005/07/privacy_concern.html...>he's">dogpolitics.typepad.com/m...ml...>he's</a> the guy that wants the country's first database in New Jersey - you know to deal with our "pet overpopulation" problem. Privacy And The Constitution Are Overrated? But wait - there's more. Tommy Thompson, Digital Angel's media darling, was interviewed on CBS Marketwatch in July. And boy did <<a href="http://www.spychips.com/tommythompsonverichip.html>Tommy">www.spychips.com/tommytho...html>Tommy</a> have some very interesting things to say about the use of microchips -in pets and in humans, like, "And you also, of course, have animals all over the country that have chips in them that can determine, you know, when a dog or a cat or another animal has to go in for a physical or medical or medicine or any kinds of vaccines. So it is really a coming thing." AND "with a chip in your arm that is placed there instantaneously, and is going to be able to help you secure your medical records which will be able to allow you to, if you have an accident or a serious illness, be able to get immediate care." The (Business) Plan Digital Angel/Applied Digital Solution's goal is to have everything, every creature and every person on the planet microchipped. Talked about global markets. BTW - did I mention that those microchips are RFID chips? That's<<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RFID>">en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RFID></a> radio frequency indentification. Readable by scanners. Trackable by satellite. Want more information about RFID technology? Just give it a Google. Nuthin' Says Luvin' Like A Microchip Now - we had posed the question what' could make AKC, PETA & HSUS all line up behind PAWS? How about <<a href="http://www.aahanet.org/Coalition_Reunite.html>The">www.aahanet.org/Coalition...e.html>The</a> Coalition ForReuniting Pets And Families? The Humane Society of the U.S. recently formed the Coalition for Reuniting Pets and Families to urge microchip manufacturers and distributors for a solution. Joining the HSUS are AAHA, ASPCA, American Humane Association, AVMA, American Society of Veterinary Medical Association Executives, AKC Companion Animal Recovery, Society of Animal Welfare Administrators and other major U.S. animal shelters and humane societies. A newly formed coalition (Fall 2004) to urge the standardization of chips, scanners, etc. in the name of reuniting lost pets. Who wouldn't want that? But is there another reason behind this group? Check out <<a href="http://www.readallchips.com/en_US/data_root/readallchips/>http://www.readallchips.com/en_US/data_root/readallchips/">www.readallchips.com/en_U...dallchips/</a> which, interestingly enough, is a P & G site - the makers of IAMS and one of the biggest players in RFID technology. See the P & G link at the bottom of the page :-) It's the Data, Stupid - The Microchip Aftermarket OK - so let's say all the pets in the land have been microchipped - 163 million of them. Now what? Microchips are the means to COLLECT THE DATA, and in the case of RFID technology, TRACK the asset (in this case your dog or cat). Because once your pet has been chipped, now you need to register them in a database, right? And just like the AKC's CAR program - it'll cost you, as in the case of the AKC - $12.50. That' means the owners of 163 million pets are now in database somewhere. A database owned by the AKC? Or how about PETA or even HSUS? And just who would have access to that database? Marketers? The government? Insurers? As they say - he who CONTROLS THE DATA - wins. Why PAWS, and Why Now? So, dear readers, at the end of the day, is PAWS just setting the stage for more government control over our daily lives - and perhaps even in ways that we have yet to imagine? Does the PAWS Bill ensure that domestic pets will roll up under the <<a href="http://animalid.aphis.usda.gov/nais/about/pdf/NAIS_Draft_Strategic_Pl...>USDA's">animalid.aphis.usda.gov/n......>USDA's</a> National Animal Identification System - aka NAIS? Is the strategic plan for NAIS - to effectively combat and manage foreign animal diseases by way of RFID tagging and tracking - is this the core reason for the AKC's supporting argument for PAWS of battling the (manufactured many say) foreign puppy importation crisis? PAWS This, Baby So while everyone out there is debating PAWS - think about this: * If PAWS passes - how will it be enforced - and who will be responsible for enforcement? * If PAWS passes - will technologies like microchips be required to ensure compliance? * If PAWS passes AND microchips become MANDATORY - who will control the market? * If PAWS passes AND microchips become MANDATORY - who will control the data? * If PAWS passes AND microchips become MANDATORY - where are the privacy protections? * If PAWS passes - who will make lots of money? Can You Feel The Love? Oh- and who or what will just LOVE a mandatory microchips and a mandatory database? * Will the US government LOVE mandatory microchips because enforcement of PAWS will be easy? * Will the members of the <<a href="http://agriculture.senate.gov/sub.htm>USDA">agriculture.senate.gov/sub.htm>USDA</a> Subcomittee on Research, Nutrition and General Legislation wield more power since they may control government contractors that manage the PAWS implementation and enforcement? * Will the AKC, PETA & HSUS have a role (and revenue) as a result of their support for PAWS? * Will animal rights groups LOVE mandatory microchips because the mandatory database will capture the reproductive status of every pet in the land? * Will the AKC LOVE mandatory microchips because it will feed money into their AKC CAR registry program (read that as a database)? * Will local and state governments LOVE mandatory microchips because it will ensure 100% compliance with licenses - because pet owners can't get a license without a microchip? * Will local and state governments and AR groups LOVE microchips because pet owners can't get a mandatory dog license unless their pet is spayed or neutered? * Will the insurance industry LOVE mandatory microchips because they'll be able to ID which pet owners own which breed of dogs? * Will marketers like P&G - makers of IAMS (and big investors in RFID technology) LOVE mandatory microchips because they'll have access to the databases? (They will if it's public information collected by local, state or federal governments) * Will the American Veterinary Medical Asociation LOVE mandatory microchips because it means a steady stream of revenue for members? * Does the government LOVE mandatory microchips and animal tracking because it provides a precursor <<a href="http://www.gizmag.com/go/3339/>experience">www.gizmag.com/go/3339/>experience</a> to human microchipping programs, and allows time for public acceptance of such a program? Why - there's just so much LOVE here I don't know if I can stand it. <a href="http://groups.google.co.il/group/alt.pets.dogs.sharpei/browse_thread/thread/16e048ce80384db7/e94406ffedb43968%23e94406ffedb43968">groups.google.co.il/group...ffedb43968</a> ñåó

by **havanagilla** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 6:06 pm

In europe it is not manadatory, only for those who want to be exempt from quarantine, after traveling in and out of the country. But this might change. for the time being UK is not considering making it mandatory. Usually, this is a good standard (I know some posters here dont' think much of the UK, but still i found their public policies to be the most balanced).

by **friend catcher** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 8:03 pm

It's not mandatory in the uk but it is very common.I have five cats kicking around the place that came from an animal home and they were all chipped. The staff actually chipped them when I turned up to collect the fiends. I asked them not do it but they said it was policy, no chip/no cat, something to do with insurance. One of the chips actually slipped out of position and ended up in the cats leg which cost me a small fortune. My Border Collie on the other hand has no chip and never will. Light heated review follows; Man enters vets' with sick cat and vet asks for its name "Evil" says man "Mr. Evil" Vet and assistant give man a cool look. Vet proceeds to examine cat who growls menacingly. Assistant holds cat firmly Cat releases itself from death grip and sinks all fangs into vets' hand' refusing to let go. Cat uses rear paws to lacerate exposed forearm and takes satisfaction from howls and shrieks of pain. Cat eventually releases prey but is caught off guard by a syringe of sleepy stuff and the examination continues. Cat diagnosed and prescribed with medicine. Vet looks man in the eye and says " one pill, three times a day and may God be with you" That's the one with the slippy chip. Revenge

Dogs' ID chips question

Dogs' ID chips question

Dog's ID chips question

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Re: Dogs' ID chips question

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Re: Re:hmmm. another more sinister/paranoid look..

Re: Re:hmmm. another more sinister/paranoid look..

Re: Re:hmmm. another more sinister/paranoid look..

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