analysis of saying good bye

[Avalon]

Hava's wording was such that Dreams End's concerns were reasonable and valid under the circumstances. He does not deserve abuse in return for prefering to take precautions that might save a life in the event he was right.<br><br>I've lost an online friend to what was said to be suicide -- at least I hope it was, because the alternative might be that he was murdered. When there are so many subtexts to peoples' postings, it pays to be alert. <p></p><i></i>

[havanagilla]

PW, i hope the other person is not directly "under fire", that would be horrible, cause its been a month of constant shelling in some areas, and I think that alone can drive someone to their brink...let alone all kinds of programming coming to the fore, that might have been otherwise dormant. <br>--<br>I had a dream tonight, a propos DE's gagging, that I am placed in an old Roman (empire) palace, and the nobility occasionaly want to eat a few of us, and they just select some, and then you have the choice to commit suicide quietly, if they so wish to grant you that favor, provided you don't make a hassle, or go to some butchery, without any assistance. BUt the process is not disputed at all. So one does not even protest. <br>-<br><br>I think that the attempts to push one into a quiet "respectful" death is what I feel imposed on both the refugees here from the north (and israelis in general, courtesy of bush) and on this board, in the attempt to subvert the facts so that they fit some agenda. As in "its ok to engage in conspiracy theory" but not to confuse us with how it actually looks and happens. IF this happens, we call the gaggers. And we feel good that we helped, because the person is quiet at last, we don't need to hear them scream from pain. <br><br>--<br>The whole Katrina syndrome is about imposing a "dignified" and orderly self annihilation, that's at the bottom of the PTB's notion of ruling. Namely, inserting in the people the acceptance to be sacrificed for others, and to do it so that they don't cause a hassle to them. I think this is horrible. <br>I am not saying DE is part of it, but the social dynamic leads to it. You dont want to mess with reality anymore, you call some "line" that will "take away" the problem. The "line" is .....who is on the other side of the line ? you don't ask yourself, its those people who do dirty jobs for you, and which you trust instead of yourself and your instincts. that's at the root of the situation.<br><br>--<br>Well, anyway, yes, its hard. and I think war is at the root of our MC experience, which is why it is bound to raise "stuff".<br><br> <p></p><i></i>

[smithtalk]

i shall not make bold claims that i cant verify about who is using the identity we see on our board as 'havanagilla'<br>but at the very least there is a significant change in the style, accuracy and manner of writing<br>below is some previous random posting from havanagilla,<br>the sentence structure is conversational and concise, the spelling is accurate and the tone reasonable<br><br>"i would really want to leave israel while its possible, at least for a month or so but have no money or place to go. pass on to whoever can really help out (except hizbollah and iranians not cause they are not nice).<br><br>I think this is going to be nastier than expected by our asshole generals.<br><br>Just returned from a brief attendance at the demo (first 45 minutes). Definitely a sad event and thoughtprovoking. --<br>Haaretz reports 5000, it was better than the other demo, bigger and more substantial, still not much of a scare to halutz.<br><br>comparing this to 400,000 in 82, who didn't make a difference TOO, this is not great news. but, it seems that this time, the arab politicians are in the lead and they are more energetic than us. the major part of the israeli jews are very worn out, scared, and jaded. (the dissidents). Many are disempowered, like me, financially, and so they feel robbed and tired, and are not supported for a civil struggle. The american "softening" was very successful, namely, the 5 years sharon/ Netanyahu reign of ecomonic terror, has ripped the society/community apart."<br><br>compare that to any of the stuff supposedly posted in the last two days and you'll find the opposite, bad spelling, poor structure and a totally changed tone,<br>i dont know what to make of it,<br><br>i heartily agree with hmk's suggestion that anyone who is going to leave temporarily or permanently do us all the favour of a reasonable goodbye,<br>having said that given that hardly anyone responds to my posts i think it possible that if i got killed tomorrow in a freak exercise ball accident on stilts, no one would actually notice,<br>(i say this with humorous smirk on face) <p></p><i></i>

[smithtalk]

well while i wrote that hava has posted her most coherent piece and made my commentary look slightly out of date,<br>hava, i hope everything is alright <p></p><i></i>

[havanagilla]

:0)<br><br>yes, i seem to have "unglued" a bit, as a result of the frequent scares here and....some physical condition i will not elaborate on, but has been addressed.<br><br>Please, let people who are under stress,<!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong> EXPRESS their</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> stress without needing to react. that's not only for my sake. just a general "epiphany" from what I see around me recently.<br><br>NOw, with all due, I am going to take my hiatus, anyway. no drama, just need a rest. will be out of my house, so don't panic of no emails are returned, hope to come back, after a good day at the beach, with a better outlook, even on DE's hysterical reactions. When this is over, i will write a guide for "web users" in war.<br><br><br>So...have a good one.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>

[HMKGrey]

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>having said that given that hardly anyone responds to my posts i think it possible that if i got killed tomorrow in a freak exercise ball accident on stilts, no one would actually notice,<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Smithtalk: please make sure that I get my stilts back. Thanks. <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :p --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/tongue.gif ALT=":p"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <p></p><i></i>

[havanagilla]

just a last one...since i am being accused of bad manners.<br><br>It does seem a little bit, sometimes on this board like a voluntary gitmo to me, in terms of how my experience is extracted. I also found it troubling to read some of DE's reports on wife, ( I am not sure in Israel it is legal to expose identity of people who are officially mentally ill, but maybe in the USA it is, don't know cause didn't check). The mode is "scientific" and weird.<br>The feeling is not someone's fault, I suppose, but the mixture of some biases against jews, mideasterners, israelis, mc survivors etc. adds up to a sense of being "researched", and some inability to leave the lab at will, in terms of level of discussion. (is it a free associaitoin room or an analytical political room). So, while I am aware of my role to pay for the suffering of Jesus, or Pollard or Liberman ...I am inviting the people here to take a look at their stance as well. <br>If I analyse for instance DE's claim that I am "mentally disturbed" because of my abusive relationships (? was that it) I see a selective standard on the alien abduction issue, which I think Jeff subscribes to, etc. So, does it take a certain power play to get through with aliens, but not with a simple claim that Israel sends dupes to have sex with some officials ?<br> Mentally ill is another word for "what you say does not fit with my agenda at the moment" or "you are Israeli ?". that includes the diagnosis of "suicidal" placed by many here on Israel, on Moslem warriors and recently on me. I am not saying anything in particular, except, while I am vacationing, take a look at some of the stuff that's coming out on this board. While I'm out, there's a chance for less 'projections".<br><br>now i'm really out for the day. internet might be OUT for a while, if you feel a deep sense of longing, i'll probably feel it in the air...so, back when my internet provider switch is complete. not sure how long it should take, 2 days, but at most 5.<br> <p></p><i></i>

[Dreams End]

You are right, chiggerbit... <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=dreamsend@rigorousintuition>Dreams End</A> at: 8/10/06 12:23 am<br></i>

[Dreams End]

but it still sucks to be on the receiving end of whatever the hell this is about.... <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=dreamsend@rigorousintuition>Dreams End</A> at: 8/10/06 12:24 am<br></i>

[chiggerbit]

quit <p></p><i></i>

[smithtalk]

thanks hmk, but i havent perfected my routine yet <p></p><i></i>

[blanc]

don't know if there's any oil left to pour on troubled waters here. there has been concern for the welfare of fellow travellers , variously and humanly expressed. it doesn't take much reflection to figure out why each persons approach is different, understandably so, and hindsight is a wonderful thing. I am glad we are not all the same, that the insights, inventiveness or reactions are not always entirely predictable.<br><br>hmk and smithy -after youse 2 with the stilts please <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :D --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <p></p><i></i>

[LilyPatToo]

And then there's the fact that there's a real difference between Israeli general manners/appropriate behavior and US ones...as I found out each time we went there. Occasionally, Israelis do and say things that come across to Americans as rude or dismissive or generally incomprehensible. But they didn't intend that and what they said or did would not have been offensive or confusing to another Israeli.<br><br>One of our Israeli friends explained that to us, since he's spent a lot of time in the US and has noticed the differences between cultures. It comes from living in what is basically a Wild West border town with hostility and constant physical danger (and military everywhere you look). There's a kind of hardening of sensibilities that is necessary to survival.<br><br>Perhaps that had a lot to do with havanagilla's rejection of our concern for her. Because we would have been touched and grateful for it, we were shocked when she threw it back in our faces. I know I was, but then, I'm not living in a war zone and, while she and I have commonalities in our personal histories, I'm an American and she's an Israeli. We grew up with different attitudes and expectations of how friends should react to our words.<br><br>LilyPat <p></p><i></i>

[havanagilla]

i am taking a special favor from neighbor to hop in here (and my emails) late at this evening, cause I care so much for the people here, and it seems that so many sensitive souls have been hurt. not being cynical, well just a little bit.<br><br>No, this is not racism saying that Israelis are hot tempered and "pesky" as blanc once wrote (needed a dictionary for that), and that it took DE almost a year to understand that some people are not born speaking english and therefore do not miss his nuances ON PURPOSE. I will not whine again. I chose to be here, as the "israeli", the "person who needs to gain the trust of the anglos" and a notorious potential spy, liar or hallucinating person. (And having bad temper, i admit to that. and btw lilpt, i am considered bad tempered here as well, which really leaves me no excuses but thanks for trying). <br><br>I certainly lack humility, i'll own that one, considering my pathetic condition, i certainly could benefit from that trait, god help me and bring me some of it NOW.<br><br>But, with respect to you dreams, really, you are the last person who can play the coy and sensitive soul. regretfully, I don't have your abilities to search the board, and the patience, but you have called me everything but...don't know what the but is. And have claimed to be willing to receive same, in the name of integrity and "truth seaking" (poking holes). so...give me a break.<br><br>Yes, there are cultural barriers, but the ptb's seem to be doing much better in getting over them, to do their scams and ugly things together, cross languages, borders, religions, and ethnicities. so, perhaps the opposition should take the effort to do the same. now, you are the victim here ? <br><br> <p></p><i></i>

[Jezebelladonna]

I am primarily a lurker and have only visiting this forum for a few months, so I apologize in advance if I am out of line here, but I feel compelled to share a few observations about this odd li'l incident.<br><br>First, it has been noted before but it's worth noting again that this blog contains some of the most thoughtful, civilized discussions out there, especially considering the provocative nature of the issues discussed. There are of course the occasional pissing contests where raw ego overtakes rational arguments, but less so here than most other similar fora.<br><br>Second, hava is one among many here who provides thought-provoking posts, riddled with insights informed by a unique perspective. Her posts are valuable not, imo, merely because she is israeli, or an MC survivor, or living in the belly of the one of the geo-political beasts (to paraphrase et in arcadia ego), no less than because she is a woman or a mother or a reader, but because her posts, like many others' posts, are thoughtful and contribute pieces of the puzzle. <br><br>Third, hava is curently in a war zone, but even before that, her situation seemed dodgy. If my memory serves me correctly, aside from the ever-present MC nastiness, she has indicated that she receives no help from any faction of her society (right or left), that her financial situation is sketchy at best, and that she suspects the israeli ptb will eventually bring the hammer down on her. Four days before the cryptic goodbye, she solicited assistance from the members of this board to get out of the country, indicating that she had no money and no place to go. Members of this board replied with what appeared to be characteristic generosity.<br> <br>Then came the Bye and Peace, in which nothing was stated besides the title and an enigmatic "(-)".C<br><br>Concern was the natural reaction, even among some of us lurkers. There were no clues save hava's previous posts, in which she would from time to time, reflect on her dodgy circumstances. <br><br>With that background, there was no way to know or guess that hava was simply switching service providers and spending some time poolside.<br><br>Dream's End's concerns and intentions were seconded by more than a few posters and, in all likelihood, more than a few non-posters on this board who understand that when it comes to hints that can be reasonably interpreted as suicidal, especially made by someone in what can be characterized as dire circumstances, one should always -ALWAYS- err on the side of caution.<br><br>Fourth, hava is away and I can only assume her situation has in all likelihood not gotten better. It's impossible to slip into her shoes to discern what effect the chaos surrounding her has on her. Accordingly, it serves no purpose to unpack her reaction when she returned to the board. <br><br>My point in writing this was just remark that, under the circumstances, on our end anyway, the responses were appropriate. I would hope that no one would do anything dfferently if this arises again. It is miraculous the level of intimacy one can enjoy on fora such as this one, and it is inescapably beautiful that people who have never met will reach out with their hearts in comaraderie and concern for the person behind the pixels. That, folks, is where it's at. <br><br>Keep it up, people.<br><br> <br> <p></p><i></i>