tech question

by **johnny nemo** » Thu May 18, 2006 5:47 pm

You just can't understand it can you? Can't quite get your tiny little mind around this concept, you poor little mendicant. Me write dumb for you to understand. computer send efax. efax go to big "magic box" called server. server have "big magic" that no need fax modem. server send efax to standalone fax machine over phone line. standalone fax machine print fax. n/t

by **thoughtographer** » Thu May 18, 2006 5:58 pm

Well, I can see you've been hitting the dictionary for insults -- I had to look that one up. I'm a beggar? What? Anyway -- over and again, you've failed to understand that I'm not talking about the customers using fax modems. I'm talking about it being a necessity for the "eFax" companies to use modems to fulfill transactions that consist of an "eFax" customer on one end, and a shit-eating old fax machine connected only to a telephone line on the other end. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>computer send efax. efax go to big "magic box" called server. server have "big magic" that no need fax modem. server send efax to standalone fax machine over phone line. standalone fax machine print fax.<hr></blockquote> Your so-called "big magic" used to send to a standalone fax machine from the "magic box" is actually -- wait for it -- A MODEM DESIGNED TO SEND FAXES. If data is hitting the PSTN, then something has to modulate (and demodulate) the signal for it to go anywhere. Don't get mad at me for your own wrongheadedness. "A crooked stick will cast a crooked shadow."

by **johnny nemo** » Thu May 18, 2006 6:20 pm

Look up the word "imbecile". They are using a picture of you beside it. As I explained before...... The Efax travels over a regularDIGITAL modem line, just like an email, stupid. It then goes to a fax server, stupid. The fax server sends your Efax over a regular phone line, stupid. THERE IS NO FAX MODEM INVOLVED !!!!!!!! IT'S ALL DIGITAL !!!!!!!!! I KEEP EXPLAINING THIS TO YOU AND YOU KEEP NOT GETTING IT, BECAUSE YOU ARE F*CKING STUPID !!!!!!

by **johnny nemo** » Thu May 18, 2006 6:45 pm

I know how hard it is for mental midgets like you, thoughtographer. I'm sure your brain hurts, right now, but I thought I'd review some information that the rest of the planet has known for several years. VoIP, or Voice over Internet Protocol, is a method for taking analog audio signals, like the kind you hear when you talk on the phone, (or are sent by fax) and turning them into digital data that can be transmitted over the Internet. The simplest and most common way is through the use of a device called an ATA (analog telephone adaptor). The ATA allows you to connect a standard phone to your computer or your Internet connection for use with VoIP. The ATA is an analog-to-digital converter. It takes the analog signal from your traditional phone and converts it into digital data for transmission over the Internet. Providers like Vonage and AT&T CallVantage are bundling ATAs free with their service. You simply crack the ATA out of the box, plug the cable from your phone that would normally go in the wall socket into the ATA, and you're ready to make VoIP calls. This is why FAX MODEMS ARE OBSOLETE.

by **thoughtographer** » Thu May 18, 2006 11:59 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>The Efax travels over a regularDIGITAL modem line, just like an email, stupid.<hr></blockquote> There's no such thing as a "digital modem". It's a commonly used misnomer, but it's still a misnomer. Not unlike someone saying "T1 Ethernet", when the reality is that they're two entirely different things. Look, I understand what you're saying, but there's still a modem used at some point when a standard fax machine on the other end -- you can't send a digital signal to an analog device without modulation. Call me stupid as many different ways you like, but that won't change the facts. It should be pretty clear to you and anyone else following this utterly ridiculous thread that I'm not stupid by any rational person's definition. You can stop explaining VoIP technology to me; I already understood it before I was unfortunate enough to come across the likes of you. My point is that, regardless of whether a person is using VoIP to move analog signals over a digital network, somewhere along the line that signal needs to pass through a modem before it can speak to a standard fax machine connected to the Public Telephone Switched Network through run of the mill analog lines. Yes, your precious "eFax" over VoIP will work for someone like havanagilla, who appears to have VoIP already from what I gathered from her posts. That's not what I'm talking about at all. Are you seriously still denying the fact that companies that provide Internet facsimile services use (fax) modems to send faxes to standard fax machines attached to the PTSN? I don't know how long you've been working with computers and telecommunications, but it's been over twenty-three years for me, and I was taught to respect the way things were done before me. If you're okay with people blindly and rapidly gobbling up whatever "improvements" that companies like Vonage and The Death Star are telling people they need, that's your prerogative. "A crooked stick will cast a crooked shadow."

by **Sepka** » Fri May 19, 2006 12:22 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I work as a computer engineer <hr></blockquote> Where on earth did you get your degree or certificate from? Did you ever manage to get any certification in logical and physical networking? I'm trying not to be nasty about this, but you pretty obviously haven't the first clue about how a TCP/IP network interfaces with the PSTN on either a hardware or logical level. -Sepka the Space Weasel

by **Mentalgongfu** » Fri May 19, 2006 1:16 am

Thanks to the hard work of Thoughtographer and Johnny Nemo, we now may all sleep soundly knowing the eggheads at RI are delving deep into the fax machine/efax/whateverthehellyou'rearguingaboutnow conspiracy. The Powers That Be beware. And not to take sides, b/c I know nothing about the technical questions, but I work in an office which has a traditional fax machine. It receives faxes daily, so while it may be considered 'obsolete,' I'm not too concerned with being primitive.

by **thoughtographer** » Fri May 19, 2006 2:31 am

I treat this subject as I would any other. It's not my fault that this guy has it in for me because he thinks I'm a brainwashed, heartless cultist. "A crooked stick will cast a crooked shadow."

by **anotherdrew** » Fri May 19, 2006 3:48 am

johnny nemo <- please shut the hell up I can't believe what an ass you are being about this. How the fuck do you think a god damn ip packet is going to reach a fax connected only to a POTS land line? someone somewhere has to translate the document for old fax machines to recieve over a telephone line in TIFF format. That's what Vonage and AT&T CallVantage would be doing, transfering the call off their data network to a pots line at some pop on their network in the area the call is going to. That's fine but I'm betting hava doesn't have access to an ATA to connect to her fax or maybe not even broadband and their phone provider doesn't do FREE no setup required voip anyway. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=anotherdrew>anotherdrew</A> at: 5/19/06 9:23 am

by **havanagilla** » Fri May 19, 2006 4:23 am

this is a fascinating debate, as I never really understood the different components of the system. -- 1. I dusted my ol fax machine and hooked it back to the landline (which is cable phone in my case). But then, the phones in Israel went dead/bersek for 36 hrs following a wild dispute between the regular phone company and my cable company. hopefully we are back in the world today. 2. So, I installed the possibility of receiving faxes on my cell phone answering box (which should then be dialed to a regular fax somewhere..). 3.I found several websites that do the efax thing, for very good rates or almost free. 4. I found out that most internet providers in Israel will give you the special mail option (email to fax/fax to email) for less then 5 $ a month unlimited use. 5. I also found a website with a software (free) that promises to do that for you (WORD to FAX, no phone lines no modems required), I started downloading but it crashed the computer, so I stopped.). 6. I have broadband cable (750, speed). but PC is Pentium 2, very little space for big softwares. 7. i have no idea what kind of gadgets, ata or not, I have on my pc, cause I am very dumb in that dept too.Thanks !

by **Dreams End** » Fri May 19, 2006 4:31 am

This has got to be a new low for this board. Entertaining, though. Kudos to thoughtographer for not losing his cool. In case anyone actually cares: <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Introduction In order to fax over IP networks, three mehods are used: * In-band Faxing—Fax tones are digitally encoded by the coder-decoder (codec) in the same way as voice. * T.38—Real-time Group3 Fax over IP networks * T.37—Store and Forward (S&F) fax on the Internet In-band faxing is not very popular because this method is inefficient. This inefficiency is a result of low-bit rate codecs and the inability to accurately encode and decode fax (and modem) tones and any other non-speech sounds. Thus, in order to in-band fax efficiently, a higher bit-rate codec must be used (G.726r32 or G.711). This takes the bandwidth savings out of the equation and makes the option to fax over data networks less attractive. T.38 eliminates the need for high-quality codecs when you fax over IP networks. Once the call is connected and fax negotiation starts, each gateway takes part in the T.30 signaling with the local fax machines, but negotiation is end-to-end. This is because the T.30 messages are encoded into packets and relayed over the IP network. Similarly, the page data is also encoded and forwarded over the data network. For more details on T.38 Fax relay, refer to Configuring Fax Relay T.38 with VoIP. T.37 is an enhancement over T.38 because T.37 allows S&F capabilities. S&F fax has two modes of operation: * OnRamp—Receives faxes that are delivered as email attachments * OffRamp—Sends standard email messages that are delivered as faxes Emails are received with a Tag Image File Format (TIFF) attachments only, but emails are sent as plain text, enriched text, or with TIFF attachments. S&F faxing has value because of this method's integration with email. You are able to configure email servers to retry continuously until successful and offer never busy fax service. The use of email aliases and distribution lists allow a single fax to be sent to multiple email addresses and conversely, for a single email to be sent to multiple fax machines. Prerequisites Requirements Readers of this document must be knowledgeable of: * Basic knowledge of Fax over IP (FoIP). For more information, refer to documents with this content: 1. Fax Services 2. Fax Applications over IP * The basic functions of Simple Mail Transfer Protocol (SMTP) protocol. For more information, refer to RFC 821 leavingcisco.com. Components For the most current fax features and hardware support, refer to the Cisco Fax Services over IP Application Guide and the Cisco IOS software release notes for the release in use. In general, supported platforms for T.37 include: * 175x * 26xx, 36xx * 37x5 * 5300, 5350, 5400, 5800, 5850 This table provides performance numbers related to some of these platforms: Platform Restriction 1750 128M RAM minimum; 256M if you use Interactive Voice Response (IVR) 2.0 or a max of 192 S&F fax sessions 5300 60 simultaneous S&F fax sessions (inbound or outbound) or up to 120 voice sessions (voice, IVR, or fax relay) (2 x S&F fax calls) + voice calls = 120 5850 120 S&F with 800 total sessions - 192 S&F with 750 total sessions For the purposes of this document, these components were used: 1. Cisco 3660 with Cisco IOS® Software version 12.2(15)T9 2. Cisco AS5300 with Cisco IOS Software version 12.2(15)T9 3. Cisco AS5350 with Cisco IOS Software version 12.2(15)T9 4. SMTP server version 5.0.2195.4453 Conventions For more information on document conventions, refer to the Cisco Technical Tips Conventions. T.37 Technology Architecture T.37 is an application that sits on top of a Call Control Application Programming Interface (CCAPI) just as the default application Voice over IP (VoIP) or IVR does. It is called by the application setting under the dial-peer (either Multimedia Mail over IP [MMoIP] or Plain Old Telephone Service [POTS]). T.37 uses the concept of an MMoIP dial-peer (dial-peer voice 1 MMoIP) for individual email session parameters such as Disposition and Message Notifications. T37-store-forward-fax1.gif OnRamp Fax Related Applications and Features OnRamp Features on the voice feature card (VFC) and on NextPort (NP) Digital Signal Processor (DSP) Modules The S&F fax related applications extend to specific features on VFC modules for the AS5300 and on NP DSP modules on AS5400 and AS5350 (known also as the Libretto application). These are the main features: * Accepts new OnRamp calls from the IVR or directly if no authentication is required * Provides set-up, bridge, and transaction events with the Voice Telephony Service Provider (VTSP), the Fax Media Service Provider (FMSP), and the Document Media Service Provider (DMSP) * Creates the fax_record file in order to reference specific information on a fax FMSP Features for OnRamp * Provides fax modem training and negotiation * Demodulates T.30 fax signals from the Public Switched Telephone Network (PSTN) * Converts T.30 signals into T.38 packets * Encapsulated within User Datagram Protocol (UDP) data * Extracts T.4 data, incorporates packet header * Provides transparency byte stripping (Data-Link Encapsulation [DLE] DLE) * Generates end-of-page detection (DLE followed by ETX, which is end of stream denoting the end of a voice data stream.) for faxes * Copies data into buffers and enqueues the buffers into the DMSP DMSP Features for OnRamp * Converts T.4 fax data to TIFF images that use the TIFF or text libraries * Accepts buffers from FMSP for TIFF conversion by way of a Cisco IOS queue event OffRamp Fax Related Applications and Features FMSP Features for OffRamp * Performs all class two fax protocol operations * Receives T.38 packets from VTSP and modulates these packets back to T.30 signals * Extracts T.4 data from T.30 protocol and hands data to DMSP * Adds transparency bytes (DLE DLE) * Generates end-of-page indication (DLE ETX) * Inserts fill bits (for minimum scan line time) * Transmits data in the cover or payload queue DMSP Features for OffRamp * Processes data buffers from the FMSP * Makes calls to the TIFF engine to convert the TIFF or text (header) data to T.4 fax data format (passes lines per page, resolution, and encoding) * Handles buffer management for the TIFF engine Text-to-Fax Converter Features for OffRamp * Processes data buffers from the DMSP * Makes calls to the Text to Fax engine in order to convert text data to fax data format (passes lines per page, resolution, and encoding) * Handles buffer management for the Text to Fax engine OffRamp Features on the VFC and on NP DSP Modules * Set-up, bridge, and transaction events with VTSP, FMSP, and the DMSP * Generates call active or history events with the MIB * Creates fax_payload and fax_records files )t.30 and t.4 protocols are for communication between fax modems). <hr></blockquote> From a Cisco white paper on the subject. Goole time: 20 minutes. <a href="http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/788/voip/T37-store-forward-fax.html#arch">www.cisco.com/warp/public....html#arch</a> But what the hell would Cisco know about servers? This was hilarious.

by **Sepka** » Fri May 19, 2006 4:42 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>7. i have no idea what kind of gadgets, ata or not, I have on my pc<hr></blockquote> The ATA is that little box that you plug your telephone or fax machine into to use the cable service's VoIP. -Sepka the Space Weasel

by **havanagilla** » Fri May 19, 2006 4:49 am

ah...so perhaps I can connect the PC to the "cable phone modem" ? there are a few free sockets there, with a variety of shapes...i am just going to call the cable company to find out more about it. now at least I know what to ask... -- This might take a day or two cause right now they are busy returning to service after Bezeq (the big landphone corp, purchased now by Haim Saban) was ordered by the court to fix some relay that otherwise took them out of business. By the time this thread is finished I will have 3 fax options...:-) perhaps I should start a faxing business at home.

by **johnny nemo** » Fri May 19, 2006 12:19 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>There's no such thing as a "digital modem". It's a commonly used misnomer, but it's still a misnomer.<hr></blockquote> WHAT?!? You can't be this stupid...it's just not humanly possible. Digital modems send data over digital cable lines, hence the name, stupid. Analog modems send data over analog phone lines, stupid. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Look, I understand what you're saying, but there's still a modem used at some point when a standard fax machine on the other end -- you can't send a digital signal to an analog device without modulation.<hr></blockquote> That modulation is done WITHOUT A FAX MODEM, STUPID ! I already explained how it's done and you're too stupid to get it. Do some research on Voice Over IP and get a clue, stupid. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Are you seriously still denying the fact that companies that provide Internet facsimile services use (fax) modems to send faxes to standard fax machines attached to the PTSN? <hr></blockquote> Yes I am. I told you how it is done and you still can't understand it,because you're really stupid. Did I happen to mention that you're stupid? <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Where on earth did you get your degree or certificate from? Did you ever manage to get any certification in logical and physical networking? I'm trying not to be nasty about this, but you pretty obviously haven't the first clue about how a TCP/IP network interfaces with the PSTN on either a hardware or logical level.<hr></blockquote> If you had the first clue about what you're talking about, you'd have corrected thoughtographer's stupid mistake when he said there's "no such thing as a digital modem". Since you didn't......you've shown that you know nothing.

by **thoughtographer** » Fri May 19, 2006 12:35 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>You can't be this stupid...it's just not humanly possible.<hr></blockquote> Yes, it's entirely possible -- you are living proof. I don't know if you're "stupid" so much as just plain-old stubborn. You do not need to modulate a digital signal being sent over a digital channel, so calling something a "digital modem" is a misnomer because it's only doing a digital-to-digital conversion. People call these things "digital modems" because they take on the role formerly played by "analog" modems. Would you call and ISDN TA a "modem"? Well, YOU probably would, but it's not a modem. MOdulate/DEModulate. Now demodulate your head from your ass. I'm not going to give you a free education anymore. Look this shit up yourself before you repeat yourself again, or cause me or anyone else to do the same. You're misinformative all over the board, my friend. Step back for a few minutes and think about why you're making a purely technical (and therefore fact-based) discussion personal. I have no hatred for you, and I don't think I've done anything to deserve this. "A crooked stick will cast a crooked shadow."Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=thoughtographer>thoughtographer</A> at: 5/19/06 10:41 am

tech question

You really are stupid

Re: You really are stupid

Look this up, b*tch

Maybe this will help you understand

Re: Maybe this will help you understand

Re: You really are stupid

Can I fax you a question?

Re: Can I fax you a question?

Re: You're always wrong, johnny nemo

Re: what hava did

Re: You're always wrong, Thoughtographer

Re: what hava did

Re: what hava did

The stupidty continues

Re: The hot wind continues to blow

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