Tantra-Induced Delusional Syndrome ("TIDS")

[Joe Hillshoist]

First - AD does answer questions. Fourthbase just asked a question 1 page upthread and AD answered with a very lengthy and informative post.

Second, this thread is a discussion of the intersection between radical politics, psychedelia, guru cults, and MKULTRA, among other things. It is a discussion, just one that most people are not interested in having. Some people are, though, so if you don't want to read it then don't read it.

It belongs on the front page all the time because AD takes the time to continuously post interesting and inspirational material, as well as articles related to the deep politics of the above mentioned areas. To me it is the most interesting ongoing discussion on this site, and I think others appreciate reading it as well.

Before you complain about it go back and read the entire thing from the beginning. If you don't read the whole thing then of course it isn't going to make sense.

It doesn't belong in the Data Dump because it isn't made of data.

Well, that's at least some engagement in a thread normally bereft of it — although I think you are incorrect on a number of points.

(1) This thread is simply not a "discussion," because a discussion requires... you know: discussion. And, with rare exceptions, discussion is not happening. (At least it wasn't until somebody asked what the hell this topic was doing in General Discussion, and someone else insisted on an answer. Now we're having a bit of a... discussion.)

(2) It might belong on the front page of General Discussion, if discussion about the material (much of which is, admittedly, interesting) were taking place! — it isn't.

(3) Yes, much of the material is both "interesting" and perhaps even "inspirational," but the very title of this non-discussion is a falsehood: there is really no such thing as "Tantra-induced Delusional Syndrome" — and it is an insulting falsehood to some of us who see a degree of value in this style of meditation. But even that might not seem nearly so insulting if American Dream weren't so insistent upon having a non-discussion about this non-syndrome as s/he goes about churning out post after non-interactive post, keeping this non-discussion on the very first page of... you got it: General Discussion.

• A little engagement, please, if we must see this thread title everyday as it proposes to us that "tantra" may be liable to "induce" some "delusion" of some sort or another in those of us who value its merits or even among those who suppose that there might be some!

With some exceptions, Sounder is exactly right when he wrote generally, and said that American Dream "doesn't do questions"; hence, by not "doing questions," s/he is not engaging in discussion. And, for the greater part, no one else here is either. In this topic. In General Discussion.

And in the absence of discussion, this is Data Dump material.

dude this page is for psychonauts and we're having the discussion in psyberspace.

[Joe Hillshoist]

I understand just as well as you do that persons "who open themselves in a radical way are often at risk to be manipulated and deluded by unscrupulous actors." There are numerous ways to do that. It's been done to me, for God's sake! So no: I'm not just "bored," as you insultingly asked. I have a very personal stake in this. I think the direction of this thread is wrong-headed because it tells a one-sided truth. By the simple fact that what routinely happens in this thread is NOT a bona fide "discussion" — normally just a steady stream, post-after-inexorable-post, of supporting evidence for that one-sided truth — this thread (including the very title of this thread) has helped introduce and now reinforces a false perception that certain types of spiritual practice, which are normally benign and sometimes even beneficial, are inherently dangerous.

That is a lie, all wrapped up in the truth.

And it remains this kind of functional lie, whether one chooses "to click on it," or not! — because that one-sided truth ("Tantra-induced Delusional Syndrome") is constantly being told on the front page of "General Discussion," each and every day.

While acknowledging that manipulations most decidedly do occur (having been on the receiving end of several forms of these manipulations as I once alluded to, Undead, in the context of a private message to you [10.10.2011], whereupon I asked about the origins of your former "visual snow" avatar), to acknowledge just that and only that on a regular basis is to take part in a deception.

Or, shall I say, a delusion.

Ok sim - how do you know you aren't deluding yourself with this:

"...this thread (including the very title of this thread) has helped introduce and now reinforces a false perception that certain types of spiritual practice, which are normally benign and sometimes even beneficial, are inherently dangerous..."

How come they aren't dangerous? (Assuming delusions are dangerous) maybe they are for some people, or at least foster the delusion that .. well any number of delusions actually. I know plenty of people that follow these practices, and indeed I do too, but a fair chunk of the people I know are deluded about any number of things and use the practises and belief systems entailed in much of this thread to delude themselves into thinking they have some righteous force on their side in some evangelical and messianic good vs evil battle.

The reality is that the only way to really be sure we aren't doing this is rigorous self examination, and that is something a person can only do for themselves.

I for one appreciate and enjoy this thread and value it. I like the title especially cos I think in some small way it helps keep me honest with myself..

[Simulist]

I'm saying that, for many people (perhaps even most people), "certain types of spiritual practice" (in this case, "tantra" practices) are not "inherently dangerous" at all and are, in fact, "normally benign" — and "sometimes even beneficial."

If that sounds "delusional" to you, then you're welcome to your opinion. But such an opinion would sound extreme to me. And quite unbelievable.

I've been a mediator for more than thirty years, and the practice has helped me immeasurably. In fact, overall I see meditation as an effective antidote to delusion.

Some people are allergic to roasted peanuts, but I don't find that fact dissuading at all whenever I'm offered one.

[Joe Hillshoist]

I'm saying that, for many people, "certain types of spiritual practice" (in this case, "tantra" practices) are not "inherently dangerous" at all and are, in fact, "normally benign" — and "sometimes even beneficial."

I've been a mediator for more than thirty years, and the practice has helped me immeasurably. In fact, I see meditation as an effective antidote to delusion.

Some people are allergic to roasted peanuts, but don't find that fact dissuading at all when I'm offered one.

If you are comfortable with that, then good. But I know people who meditate and still wear their arse for a hat regularly. maybe they're doing it wrong. Throughout this thread there are examples of people doing it wrong.

A significant part of this thread illustrates western (but not just western) wankers appropriating other cultures spirituality for the own profit and ego tripping. As someone with ancestors from one of those cultures its nice to see this recognised.

Westerners who use the term tantra are in many ways deluded anyway, as its a word that means different things to different people in India and throughout SE Asia, but appears to represent some cohesive spiritual something to people living in first world colonist nations. In many ways the use of terms like "Yoga" and "tantra" in the west is just another manifestation of an empty cultures voracious appetite for resources in any form from somewhere else. Specifically so they can exploit the results of other peoples hard work and not think up their own culturally specific mechanisms for "spiritual" or human (or whatever) development.

I'm not saying this applies to you.

However I would suggest being offended or annoyed about a title like "tantra induced delusional syndrome" definitely falls under the heading of First World Problems.

[Simulist]

I'm saying that, for many people, "certain types of spiritual practice" (in this case, "tantra" practices) are not "inherently dangerous" at all and are, in fact, "normally benign" — and "sometimes even beneficial."

I've been a mediator for more than thirty years, and the practice has helped me immeasurably. In fact, I see meditation as an effective antidote to delusion.

Some people are allergic to roasted peanuts, but don't find that fact dissuading at all when I'm offered one.

If you are comfortable with that, then good. But I know people who meditate and still wear their arse for a hat regularly. maybe they're doing it wrong. Throughout this thread there are examples of people doing it wrong.

Can't that be said for just about anything? If given enough time and sufficient opportunity, humans will find a variety of ways to screw just about anything up, no matter how sublime.

A significant part of this thread illustrates western (but not just western) wankers appropriating other cultures spirituality for the own profit and ego tripping. As someone with ancestors from one of those cultures its nice to see this recognised.

Westerners who use the term tantra are in many ways deluded anyway, as its a word that means different things to different people in India and throughout SE Asia, but appears to represent some cohesive spiritual something to people living in first world colonist nations. In many ways the use of terms like "Yoga" and "tantra" in the west is just another manifestation of an empty cultures voracious appetite for resources in any form from somewhere else. Specifically so they can exploit the results of other peoples hard work and not think up their own culturally specific mechanisms for "spiritual" or human (or whatever) development.

I'm not saying this applies to you, nor that meditation (which school btw?) applies to you.

However I would suggest being offended or annoyed about a title like "tantra induced delusional syndrome" definitely falls under the heading of First World Problems.

I'm offended by a fairly one-sided picture — just as I would be about a thread entitled "Conspiracy Theorist Delusional Syndrome." Are some conspiracy theorists delusional? You bet your sweet bippy. But if that were essentially the only side of the picture emerging in a thread where there is no real discussion, I'd probably start getting a little concerned at some point. Because conspiracy theories are also useful (and true) in some instances, despite the tin-foil-hatters.

[FourthBase]

Simulist, start a new pro-spirituality thread, then?

Not every thread has to be a dialectic.
In fact, one-sidedness can sometimes just be a synonym for "focus".
And whatever dialectic should exist, can exist via two threads.

[Simulist]

Simulist, start a new pro-spirituality thread, then?

If I have something to contribute in this thread, I'll do it right here. Thanks.

(By the way, I'm not simply "pro-spirituality," and normally find unipolar positions pretty simplistic — on all sides of a given question.)

Not every thread has to be a dialectic.

No, but it should be a discussion, if it's in General Discussion.

Otherwise, it's a data dump.

[Joe Hillshoist]

Right now it is a discussion Sim.

[Simulist]

Right now it is a discussion Sim.

Ain't it beautiful.

[Joe Hillshoist]

Yeah it is.

but this could have happened at any time if there was something you wanted to discuss. There have been times i've discussed things with AD in this thread, tho no one else joined in, and that is a pity, because those discussions could have gone a long way to dispelling the idea that there is only one side being presented.

Honestly one of the reasons I like this thread is its an antidote to the one sided worship of non western spirituality that lots of hippies in my part of the world indulge in.

[Simulist]

Yeah it is.

but this could have happened at any time if there was something you wanted to discuss.

Not sure about that. We're having discussion right now because I raised a stink after being told to "Shut up."

We'll see how much discussion happens when a stink isn't being raised, just alternate points of view expressed, or questions asked.

It could be engaging. Or not. Like I said, we'll see.

Honestly one of the reasons I like this thread is its an antidote to the one sided worship of non western spirituality that lots of hippies in my part of the world indulge in.

Worship of any-thing is a dead end. (And so, I suppose, is the worship of not worshiping.)

If belief doesn't, at some point, give way to wonder... I think the point has probably been missed.

[FourthBase]

Yeah it is.

but this could have happened at any time if there was something you wanted to discuss.

Not sure about that. We're having discussion right now because I raised a stink after being told to "Shut up."

You're welcome.

We'll see how much discussion happens when a stink isn't being raised, just alternate points of view expressed, or questions asked.

It could be engaging. Or not. Like I said, we'll see.

This is somewhat interesting, this meta-discussion.
It's not even close to being as interesting as the thread as it had been, though.

You took my suggestion to create another thread as just another "shut up", I guess.
It wasn't. If you don't like this thread, start another. It's a general discussion board.

Also, it's cute that you resented me proposing that you leave this thread alone, as if I were trying to informally deny you your right to message board free speech. Uhhh, wasn't it you who was trying to banish this thread to Data Dump Land? Yeah, it was, you. I'm not holding any grudge, it's not even my thread (to whatever extent a member can sentimentally "own" a thread) I'm just trying to stick up for one person's right to post freely, and trying to help you recognize your own temporary hypocrisy. You're welcome.

Honestly one of the reasons I like this thread is its an antidote to the one sided worship of non western spirituality that lots of hippies in my part of the world indulge in.

Worship of any-thing is a dead end. (And so, I suppose, is the worship of not worshiping.)

If belief doesn't, at some point, give way to wonder... I think the point has probably been missed.

That seems to be the big problem, that it's so often the reverse, wonder giving way to belief.

[Simulist]

I'm not holding any grudge...

FourthBase, in your case I really don't give a damn either way.

[0_0]

Discussion implies duality; endless copypasta oneness with the universe. Therefore don't discuss young grasshopper, copypaste

[Hammer of Los]

...

Firstly, love you all.

Secondly, try brushing up on that post modern double bind irony thing.

It could help a great deal.

On the other hand, I know where you are coming from, Sim.

But ya know.

This thread could be just about the single most important historical document, er like maybe ever kinda thingy.

Nuance is a must.

So is a sense of advaita vedanta, which I came to rather latterly.

Neo paganism is good too.

But there's rather a lot going down in middle earth right now.

Me, I'm busy on my notes.

The notes of the Magic Harp.

My soul aim is to encourage the silent, invisible, irresistible revolution from below.

Wish me luck!

...