A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

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Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby jakell » Mon Feb 03, 2014 7:59 pm

coffin_dodger » Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:21 pm wrote:I'm starting to think we've missed the boat. It worries me that generally, we seem to spend a lot of time and effort pointing out and debating what's no good, what's crap and what's scary for people like us (i.e. Fascism), but less time and little effort in promoting better alternatives/something different. We've been hanging on to a tentative order of sorts since 2007/8 and nothing *that* convincing as an alternative has been forthcoming that has captured the popular imagination. Fascism strikes me as a 'fall-back position' for frightened, confused people and thankfully we're not there yet. But it only takes one country to start 'tooling up', for it's equally frightened neighbours to think hard about their own security - and the type of government they want if it's going to come to a fight. And those Fascists do like to fight.


I think one of the reasons that people tend to push their (questionable) 'anti-fascism' efforts, and also invent new and more convoluted forms of 'fascism' (like AD did in this thread), is that they are basically not creative enough to push better alternatives.

It is much easier to be against something (that's not actually present) than to provide an alternative, and to inflate that something to into something bigger, (Al Qaeda for instance).
The present forms of white nationalist/supremacist activity are more basic and straightforward than AD makes out (in Britain at least), and are best tackled on that level. He's inventing boogeymen.
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Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby American Dream » Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:04 pm

Searcher08 » Mon Feb 03, 2014 6:50 pm wrote:
coffin_dodger » Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:21 pm wrote:I'm starting to think we've missed the boat. It worries me that generally, we seem to spend a lot of time and effort pointing out and debating what's no good, what's crap and what's scary for people like us (i.e. Fascism), but less time and little effort in promoting better alternatives/something different.

We've been hanging on to a tentative order of sorts since 2007/8 and nothing *that* convincing as an alternative has been forthcoming that has captured the popular imagination. Fascism strikes me as a 'fall-back position' for frightened, confused people and thankfully we're not there yet.
But it only takes one country to start 'tooling up', for it's equally frightened neighbours to think hard about their own security - and the type of government they want if it's going to come to a fight. And those Fascists do like to fight.


I wholeheartedly agree. The reasons for this are quite deep. I think that the main thing is that focusing on past oriented, analysis based "critiques" comes from within a mental set that is fundamentally the wrong one. People act based on their world-view and perceptions and these are changed by different perceptions, not argumentation, which is based in a clash of ideas mode where ideas battle to the death on a territory called 'being right' and an underlying demand that there is a single objective 'truth' which can be carved out by getting rid of 'wrong' or more accurately what are deemed as 'heretical' thoughts.

This type of thinking does not reflect how the brain works as a perception and pattern-making system and is a hangover from medieval church argument approaches. People change through setting up new perceptions and that requires a totally different type of thinking than analysis - it required creativity and lateral thinking, not 'I am right, You are Wrong' binary logic.

The unfortunate thing is that the "critique" crowd consider their system of logic as the only one
possible and become extremely uncomfortable about exploring this way of thinking.
Ananlysis is only ONE mode of thinking and useless at designing a way forward. THAT requires pattern-breaking, provocation and holistic thinking - anathema to reductionism.


I think that it's mostly a minority of the foot soldiers of historical Nazism, contemporary Skinheadism etc.- i.e. the most naive dupes- who seem likely at all to go through a conversion experience and leave that hateful world behind.

While I do think we should maintain compassion for all- and also fight in the realm of ideas- it is mostly the "swing vote" sector I see as strategically important, that is people who feel/know that something is wrong and are looking for explanations and solutions but are not ideologically committed racist/fascist types.

Redemption is a beautiful thing- and I'm always open to it- but I think we have to be realistic about where we are most likely to have success in organizing for positive change...
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Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby jakell » Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:15 pm

American Dream » Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:29 pm wrote:
jakell » Mon Feb 03, 2014 6:12 pm wrote:I'm still open to basic questions (of which you've only asked one so far), so ask away. You seem to have trouble asking questions that get anywhere near the heart of the matter.


Third Positionists, National Anarchists, Autonomous Nationalists, Paleoconservatives and their broader milieu in the Far Right, which includes "White Pride" causes, neo-Nazis, Fascists, White Nationalists, White Separatists and the like, are all really bad news and we should never support their efforts.

Far, far better to be an anti-Fascist, anti-Racist and organize against the negative forces outlined above.

Agreed?


There's the royal 'we' again.

I'm not convinced that you are organised at all and are basically just a talking head and very likely a fantasist. In fact, in my experience, most of the Left's efforts to combat these groups are very poor . Therefore I will not be joining you in your imaginary crusade.

On a practical level, I have only really opposed white supremacists, and only then when they impinge on my personal and social domain (this includes internet contact), they can have their odd beliefs as long as they keep them to themselves. I do not waste my time on inflated and imaginary bogeymen.
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Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby jakell » Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:21 pm

American Dream » Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:04 am wrote:
I think that it's mostly a minority of the foot soldiers of historical Nazism, contemporary Skinheadism etc.- i.e. the most naive dupes- who seem likely at all to go through a conversion experience and leave that hateful world behind.

While I do think we should maintain compassion for all- and also fight in the realm of ideas- it is mostly the "swing vote" sector I see as strategically important, that is people who feel/know that something is wrong and are looking for explanations and solutions but are not ideologically committed racist/fascist types.

Redemption is a beautiful thing- and I'm always open to it- but I think we have to be realistic about where we are most likely to have success in organizing for positive change...


......and yet you seem reluctant to take the fight to them in their own intellectual spaces as I have done. As far as I know, you spend your time languishing in places such as this where there is little likelihood of you having to encounter any of these people that you fantasise about.
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Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby American Dream » Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:29 pm

jakell » Mon Feb 03, 2014 7:15 pm wrote:
American Dream » Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:29 pm wrote:
jakell » Mon Feb 03, 2014 6:12 pm wrote:I'm still open to basic questions (of which you've only asked one so far), so ask away. You seem to have trouble asking questions that get anywhere near the heart of the matter.


Third Positionists, National Anarchists, Autonomous Nationalists, Paleoconservatives and their broader milieu in the Far Right, which includes "White Pride" causes, neo-Nazis, Fascists, White Nationalists, White Separatists and the like, are all really bad news and we should never support their efforts.

Far, far better to be an anti-Fascist, anti-Racist and organize against the negative forces outlined above.

Agreed?


There's the royal 'we' again.

I'm not convinced that you are organised at all and are basically just a talking head and very likely a fantasist. In fact, in my experience, most of the Left's efforts to combat these groups are very poor . Therefore I will not be joining you in your imaginary crusade.

On a practical level, I have only really opposed white supremacists, and only then when they impinge on my personal and social domain (this includes internet contact), they can have their odd beliefs as long as they keep them to themselves. I do not waste my time on inflated and imaginary bogeymen.


So are you in fundamental agreement with my statement of principle?

Why or why not?
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Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby jakell » Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:42 pm

American Dream » Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:29 am wrote:
jakell » Mon Feb 03, 2014 7:15 pm wrote:
American Dream » Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:29 pm wrote:
jakell » Mon Feb 03, 2014 6:12 pm wrote:I'm still open to basic questions (of which you've only asked one so far), so ask away. You seem to have trouble asking questions that get anywhere near the heart of the matter.


Third Positionists, National Anarchists, Autonomous Nationalists, Paleoconservatives and their broader milieu in the Far Right, which includes "White Pride" causes, neo-Nazis, Fascists, White Nationalists, White Separatists and the like, are all really bad news and we should never support their efforts.

Far, far better to be an anti-Fascist, anti-Racist and organize against the negative forces outlined above.

Agreed?


There's the royal 'we' again.

I'm not convinced that you are organised at all and are basically just a talking head and very likely a fantasist. In fact, in my experience, most of the Left's efforts to combat these groups are very poor . Therefore I will not be joining you in your imaginary crusade.

On a practical level, I have only really opposed white supremacists, and only then when they impinge on my personal and social domain (this includes internet contact), they can have their odd beliefs as long as they keep them to themselves. I do not waste my time on inflated and imaginary bogeymen.


So are you in fundamental agreement with my statement of principle?

Why or why not?


I covered this in my 'common ground' post back in the Judeophobia thread, ie. I'm vaguely in agreement with it, mainly because I think you are not in touch with the situation on the ground and are an oversensitive loose cannon who is not an asset to anti-fascism

I've also told you before. I don't do statements or windy ideologies, these are for people who like to fantasise.
Last edited by jakell on Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby American Dream » Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:46 pm

You know this is a conspiracy board, right?

Because your efforts to dance around these topics are sure to be noticed...
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Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby jakell » Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:55 pm

American Dream » Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:46 am wrote:You know this is a conspiracy board, right?

Because your efforts to dance around these topics are sure to be noticed...


I'm all for being noticed. Maybe you would like to direct someone to me.

However, I think it is only you who has a problem with asking basic questions that lead to the discovery of certain attitudes. Everybody else here seems ok. Notice that I haven't been interrogating you... why? because it's rude and unproductive.

Here's a pointer... the question you asked me on racism was in the right area** (even though I had to prompt you a fair bit). all your other questions have been far too convoluted and self serving.

**Page 8 Judeophobia thread
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Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby American Dream » Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:11 pm

Why would I want to work to draw you out? I can't make you into an honest and forthcoming person, anyway- are you trying to convince me otherwise?

I like the fact that this is an anti-fascist board with clear guidelines to prevent white separatists, nationalists, supremacists from proselytizing here- and I'm not at all sure that you do...




American Dream » Mon Feb 03, 2014 5:21 pm wrote:You know full well that I'm not convinced that you came here with respect for this being an anti-fascist board.

You seem to want to push the envelope of plausible deniability in order to disrespect the guideline that: "Propagation of fascist, neo-Nazi and "white pride" causes, including sympathetically linking to sites which advocate such, will not be permitted".
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Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby jakell » Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:19 am

American Dream » Tue Feb 04, 2014 3:11 am wrote:Why would I want to work to draw you out? I can't make you into an honest and forthcoming person, anyway- are you trying to convince me otherwise?

I like the fact that this is an anti-fascist board with clear guidelines to prevent white separatists, nationalists, supremacists from proselytizing here- and I'm not at all sure that you do...




American Dream » Mon Feb 03, 2014 5:21 pm wrote:You know full well that I'm not convinced that you came here with respect for this being an anti-fascist board.

You seem to want to push the envelope of plausible deniability in order to disrespect the guideline that: "Propagation of fascist, neo-Nazi and "white pride" causes, including sympathetically linking to sites which advocate such, will not be permitted".


I opined previously that the term 'anti fascist' was probably wishful thinking on Jeff's part and that the term 'non-fascist' is a more accurate description of the present state here

Why? because to me, anti-fascism is an activity, not simply an attitude, and this distinction is important for those who wish to put their energies into this.
I would say that the difficulty that anti fascism has on here is contained within these three points I made earlier:

Here are some from 'mindreading' AD (AD - please correct )
AD1 There has been far right infiltration attempts here before
AD2 This place is unique - how can it be safeguarded
AD3 Improving access to my TIDS project
AD4 Being labelled an anti-Palestinian, a Zionist, an AIPAC supporter
AD5 Not having my practical activism knowledge / strengths used here


I would question this and say alleged skills. In spite of my short time here I can say this is due to him :

1) seeming unable to sustain an atmosphere where these these issues can be discussed rationally.

2) Having a poor method of discovery by failing to ask relevant questions, not processing and retaining information, and not producing evidence to back up accusations when challenged

3) After making accusations, simply fading away, or treading water instead of proceeding towards a resolution

In all, not an asset to anti fascism, and most likely an impediment IMO.


http://rigorousintuition.ca/board2/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=37657&start=345#p533543


Now, what did you make of my comments regarding 'ecofascism' and your David Icke /New age excursion you made on pages 6 and 7 here?.
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Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby coffin_dodger » Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:28 am

AD said:
While I do think we should maintain compassion for all- and also fight in the realm of ideas- it is mostly the "swing vote" sector I see as strategically important, that is people who feel/know that something is wrong and are looking for explanations and solutions but are not ideologically committed racist/fascist types.


I know plenty of people (that aren't conspiracy-minded folk) who know/feel something is wrong. These people are 'normal' - i.e. they're content (within reason) so long as they are not hungry, their mobile phone works and their rent/mortgage is paid. In fact, these people make up the vast majority in the UK. The problem is, with the imminent 'robolution' upon us, many of these people will no longer have means to earn a living - and in a State where the Welfare System is in disarray. Many will look to lay blame elsewhere for their own inaction towards changing the paradigm, but it will be too late. There will be few, stark choices available to them, and whether you or I like it or not, frightened people turn towards strength, in an existence with a bleak future.

If you want proof of this AD, re-read this thread. It's a real-time history of individuals within society under pressure. Ultimately, when the pressure dam breaks, to fight a Fascist you must become fascist. The names of ideologies may change, but it's always the outcome in times of extreme pressure on the system.

I feel frustrated that such effort is being expended in turning the 'swing vote' away from Fascist ideology, without offering up a credible and exciting alternative. Fighting against the 'default fall-back position (fascism)' of societies worldwide (for time immemorial) may make us feel good but it will have achieved nothing once the tensions in society mount to critical point. Scared/dispossessed/unhappy people want quick fixes. We are headed into highly militarized nations once again (look at the US police force) and China is tooling up. If it comes to war, your nation, AD, will resemble a Fascist State in very quick order. Calling it Democracy only masks this fact.

Directing our mental energies towards building a manifesto for peace and unity is absolutely paramount. Achieving this by scare-tactic referrals to systems we don't want (but which are going to happen anyway if we don't do something radically different) has some practical use up to a point, but time, imo, would be better spent really, really concentrating on a new idea that can garner popular support. Something that people read or hear and say ' yeah, that's it! - I'll have some of that, please ' as opposed to ' Oh shit, we don't want that! - but that's what we're creeping towards, oh God '
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Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby jakell » Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:16 am

Good post in general, sorry for snipping, but I like this phrase
coffin_dodger » Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:28 am wrote:.... to fight a Fascist you must become fascist...


This is a provocative statement, and takes a lot of balls with certain kneejerk persons around.

I wouldn't put it like that exactly, but I would say that you have to meet them on their own ground, and sometimes this ground is ideological. It is no use sitting on a forum where they are very unlikely to tread, throwing spitballs from way behind the lines.

The Left have become very bad at doing the former, and good at the latter above, and have become little use in combating fascism. IMO, the only thing capable of doing this consistently is anarchism as it is potentially able to address all sides without getting caught up in exaggeration and fantasism.

I'll try and address your other points later.
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Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby Sounder » Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:18 am

AD wrote...
it is mostly the "swing vote" sector I see as strategically important,


And do you think that ‘swing votes’ are to be found on this site?

Strategically important? Oh shit, I feel another cut-n-paste avalanche coming on.

Coffin dodger wrote….
Directing our mental energies towards building a manifesto for peace and unity is absolutely paramount. Achieving this by scare-tactic referrals to systems we don't want (but which are going to happen anyway if we don't do something radically different) has some practical use up to a point, but time, imo, would be better spent really, really concentrating on a new idea that can garner popular support. Something that people read or hear and say ' yeah, that's it! - I'll have some of that, please ' as opposed to ' Oh shit, we don't want that! - but that's what we're creeping towards, oh God '


That’s what I’m talking about dodger. Well said.

AD’s strategically important opinion has caused him to adopt a tactically inept path. It is quite presumptuous and insulting to treat follow members here as being ‘swing votes’.

(to my mind) AD’s approach is all form no substance. He has no place for or interest in any thesis that accounts for why the fascistic mentality can achieve such a grip on people.

We could do well to get to wrestling with our cultural blind spot, created by an over reliance on the either/or dichotomy.
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
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Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby American Dream » Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:14 am

coffin_dodger » Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:28 am wrote:I feel frustrated that such effort is being expended in turning the 'swing vote' away from Fascist ideology, without offering up a credible and exciting alternative. Fighting against the 'default fall-back position (fascism)' of societies worldwide (for time immemorial) may make us feel good but it will have achieved nothing once the tensions in society mount to critical point. Scared/dispossessed/unhappy people want quick fixes. We are headed into highly militarized nations once again (look at the US police force) and China is tooling up. If it comes to war, your nation, AD, will resemble a Fascist State in very quick order. Calling it Democracy only masks this fact.


I've had at least some knowledge of/contact with antifa type people over many years but it's never really been my thing. I was ambivalent towards making this a big focus, for the kinds of reasons that you mention- that it might distract away from other struggles, especially the efforts to change the System in a more positive direction.

However, upon further reflection, I think that's a false dichotomy. I think the anti-fascist struggle can be part of a positive synergy including all the struggles that matter.

In that, questionable individuals such as jakell- who every anarchist I ever met in my life would loathe- have helped very much to clarify these themes, even though I highly doubt it was their intention.

I'm still really glad that this is an anti-fascist board and that advocating for racist/fascist causes is not acceptable here.
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Re: A New Europe: Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, Nation-State

Postby jakell » Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:23 am

AD, what did you make of my suggestion that 'non-fascist' is a more useful term than 'anti-fascist' in the board's present form?
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