The Finders - Sources

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Re: The Finders - Sources

Postby coffin_dodger » Mon Dec 22, 2014 4:16 am

not sure if this has been posted before - however, I noted the following statement from the document as interesting -

http://www.scribd.com/doc/70996637/Finders-Cult

"During the course of the search warrants, numerous documents were discovered which appeared to be concerned with international trafficking in children, high tech transfer to the United Kingdom and international transfer of currency. [bold added]

I wonder what 'high tech transfer' is? The bloody UK always seems to be involved somewhere.
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Re: The Finders - Sources

Postby Tyler Rabbit » Fri Jan 16, 2015 7:19 am

Elfi already posted this elsewhere but I'll add it here.
Book written by longtime Finder Tobe Terrell about his experience with Pettie and the group.
Essential reading for anyone interested in the Finders.
https://archive.org/details/TheGamecaller

My doc is still ongoing. Nearly done with interviews, but need at least a year to organize all the footage, edit, polish, etc.. It's frustrating that the medium is so much less immediate than say a podcast or blog. There's just a ton of stuff I've learned and am documenting, but feel the need to take the time to present it properly. In the meantime, Tobe's book and the City Paper articles by Eddie Dean and Jon Cohen are, to me at least, the best sources of accurate info available. Am guessing some might think Tobe's book is disinfo or that he was in the dark, but I'll just say after spending a lot of time with the dude and really getting to know his worldview and life history, if he's anything other than what he claims, I'll eat my fucking elbow.

At some point I may need to start a new thread. Not sure these random production journal posts peppered with opinion qualify as dumped data...
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Re: The Finders - Sources

Postby elfismiles » Fri Jan 16, 2015 10:29 am

:thumbsup Kudos and congrats on the ongoing project work. :partyhat

Tyler Rabbit » 16 Jan 2015 11:19 wrote:Elfi already posted this elsewhere but I'll add it here.
Book written by longtime Finder Tobe Terrell about his experience with Pettie and the group.
Essential reading for anyone interested in the Finders.
https://archive.org/details/TheGamecaller

My doc is still ongoing. Nearly done with interviews, but need at least a year to organize all the footage, edit, polish, etc.. It's frustrating that the medium is so much less immediate than say a podcast or blog. There's just a ton of stuff I've learned and am documenting, but feel the need to take the time to present it properly. In the meantime, Tobe's book and the City Paper articles by Eddie Dean and Jon Cohen are, to me at least, the best sources of accurate info available. Am guessing some might think Tobe's book is disinfo or that he was in the dark, but I'll just say after spending a lot of time with the dude and really getting to know his worldview and life history, if he's anything other than what he claims, I'll eat my fucking elbow.

At some point I may need to start a new thread. Not sure these random production journal posts peppered with opinion qualify as dumped data...
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Re: The Finders - Sources

Postby cptmarginal » Fri Jan 16, 2015 7:11 pm

Thanks for posting that, I'm perusing it right now. I may actually read the whole book, it seems pretty interesting.

I'm open to the idea that some of the information in the Customs report was tainted, that it was lurid propaganda emanating from the circle of Gunderson et al. But even if that were the case, the details were just a little too specific and believable for me to dismiss it entirely. And the Florida incident is hard to explain away. I've never seen anything but the most half-hearted defense regarding those issues. Chapter 12 of this book contains the subheading "Goatgate" so I guess that's a good place to start looking for a better one. Not that I'd expect to get straight answers from anyone involved with the Finders, since the whole premise of the group revolves around pretense and unabashed deception.
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Re: The Finders - Sources

Postby cptmarginal » Fri Jan 16, 2015 7:30 pm

From a later chapter in the book:

THE PROBLEM-SOLVING CENTER

“Y’all are addicted to talking on the telephone,” Pettie says often. “The only way to do business is eyeball-to-eyeball. How can you size somebody up over the phone? Y’all come to the meeting here and listen to me talking about personizing your life and then, as soon as I get around the corner, you get on the phone and start making impersonal deals.”

Based on this philosophy, the only telephone at W Street for many years was a payphone in the hallway. But that was the old days. Now there are phones everywhere. Pettie does his preaching against it, but phones continue to proliferate. Occasionally, somebody asks a question like:

“What about using the phone for making appointments, sir? Doesn’t it make sense to call ahead to make sure that we aren’t wasting our time in going to meet somebody?”

“You’re going to get me to cussin’,” Pettie would say. “Here I am, the world’s greatest advocate for spontaneous living and you all want to create a surprise-free future. Follow your intuition. If you have lost it, as you all have from going to school, you won’t get it back by making more appointments and talking on the telephone. If you don’t want to live spontaneously, that’s OK. I don’t want to make a pest of myself.”

He would be greeted with voices saying that everybody wants to invent their own future in the present moment or words to that effect and then he would go on:

“If you want to get in touch with your own true nature, you have to recognize that you’re doing all of this yourself. Everything that you see around you is you–in some way that none of us can comprehend. It’s your own invention. If you become hyperaware of your environment, it will send you signs and symbols and your intuition will get better. If you want to get it back, you have to make mistakes. It’s a knack. I can’t teach it to you, but you can learn it. Now, what are you going to do? As soon as I leave, y’all will jump right on the telephone and start making appointments.”

We hold open house all day. Somebody is always on duty at W Street in the room that we call the Problem-Solving Center or PSC. It’s situated in what had been the living room in a one-bedroom apartment on the first floor of the W Street apartments. We paper one entire wall with the largest world map available from the National Geographic Society. We arrange a dozen deck chairs in a circle on top of an oriental carpet. In the center there’s a glass-top round table supported by a square chrome base. Available close by are the tools of the problem-solver’s trade: magic markers, large sheets of newsprint for taping to the wall, 3x5 cards, telephone directories and yellow pads.

Most of the action in the PSC happens at night. People who want something simply appear there. We sit them down in the circle with one or more of us, offer them food and drink and “take their listing.” That’s all that we ever promise to do: take their listing. The idea is that we will list whatever they want and, perhaps through our connections, they might get it. All of the things listed are written on big sheets of newsprint and considered in our daily meetings.

“We never charge fees, but we do accept gifts,” we tell the persons who come there. Many come back and a few stay. The thing they want most often is a place to live. We offer short-term housing on a day-at-a-time basis. There are always people there. Sometimes, the whole place is full on one day and nearly empty the next. The first ethnic group that we accommodate in large numbers are Iranian exchange students. During the last few years of the Shah of Iran, thousands of Iranian males come to America as students. Many of them go to Georgetown University, George Washington University or American University, all of which are within walking distance from W Street. For a couple of years, we always have some of them staying there, sometimes a dozen or more. They’re a cheerful group, always ready to talk and anxious to learn and imitate the American lifestyle. Many of them march as protesters through the streets of Washington, wearing black masks to hide their faces, when the Shah comes for a visit. As bad as he was, the repressive government that takes his place is worse and no more Iranian students come.

Our accommodations are simple. We set hollow core doors on stacks of concrete blocks, with a piece of foam on top. Each guest is issued sheets, towels and pillowcases. On the walls, we hang Chinese screen prints. Some of the floors are carpeted, but most are covered with oriental rugs over hardwood floors. In some rooms, there are bunk beds. We can accommodate up to thirty people. Each apartment has a kitchen.

Then, somehow, we get listed in some guidebooks as a hostel and we have a steady stream of foreign students that lasts for years. Of all the visitors, the Chinese are the most frequent and most numerous. After Richard Nixon’s visit to China, the People’s Republic opens its embassy on Connecticut Avenue. We visit and tell them of our place. Soon, Chinese students begin arriving in America. Most, or perhaps all, come to Washington as a part of the American experience, which is orchestrated by the Chinese government. The embassy sends a representative, who looks us over, likes our simple setup and begins sending students. Then, as the number of students increases, more and more of them come to W Street. They’re the cream of the crop of the young Chinese. Many are scientists. We often talk to them, but find them reluctant to say much about anything political or having to do with Chinese philosophy, about which they seem to know little. But, I learn from my exposure to them that the kind of understanding found in the Tao Te Ching and the I Ching is deeply ingrained in the Chinese, regardless of whether they have read it, as most have not.


What was that again, from the Customs report?

During the execution of the warrant at 3918/20 W St., I was able to observe and access the entire building. I saw large quantities of children's clothing and toys. The clothing consisting of diapers and clothes in the toddler to pre-school range. No children were found on the premises. There were several subjects on the premises. Only one was deemed to be connected with the Finders. The rest were renting living space from this individual. He was identified as Stuart Miles SILVERSTONE, DOB/061941, U.S. Passport No. (deleted). SILVERSTONE was located in a room equipped with several computers, printers, and numerous documents. Cursory examination of the documents revealed detailed instructions for obtaining children for unspecified purposes. The instructions included the impregnation of female members of the community known as the Finders, purchasing children, trading, and kidnapping. There were telex messages using MCI account numbers between a computer terminal believed to be located in the same room, and others located across the country and in foreign locations. One such telex specifically ordered the purchase of two children in Hong Kong to be be arranged through a contact in the Chinese Embassy there. Another telex expressed interest in "bank secrecy" situations. Other documents identified interests in high-tech transfers to the United Kingdom, numerous properties under the control of the Finders, a keen interest in terrorism, explosives, and the evasion of law enforcement. Also found in the "computer room" was a detailed summary of the events surrounding the arrest and taking into custody of the two adults and six children in Tallahassee the previous night. There were also a set of instructions which appeared to be broadcast via a computer network which advised the participants to move "the children" and keep them moving through different jurisdictions, and instructions on how to avoid police attention.

One of the residents was identified as a Chinese National. Due to the telex discovered referencing the Chinese Embassy in Hong Kong, he was fully identified for future reference: WANG/Gengxin, DOB/092747, POB/Tianjin, People's Republic of China Passport No. (deleted), entered the U.S. on January 22, 1987, admitted until December 31, 1987. He is in the U.S. as a graduate student in the Anatomy Department of Georgetown University. His Visa was issued on November 10, 1986, in London, England, number 00143.


For whatever that's worth; just happened to notice it. Rather than totally believe that all of this information regarding child trafficking was found at the warehouse, maybe the reality of what was found was "just" documentation of a counterintelligence operation.

"The idea is that we will list whatever they want and, perhaps through our connections, they might get it."

What sorts of things would these Iranian and Chinese students list, for example? Just something to think about.
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Re: The Finders - Sources

Postby cptmarginal » Fri Jan 16, 2015 7:35 pm

coffin_dodger » Mon Dec 22, 2014 3:16 am wrote:not sure if this has been posted before - however, I noted the following statement from the document as interesting -

http://www.scribd.com/doc/70996637/Finders-Cult

"During the course of the search warrants, numerous documents were discovered which appeared to be concerned with international trafficking in children, high tech transfer to the United Kingdom and international transfer of currency. [bold added]

I wonder what 'high tech transfer' is? The bloody UK always seems to be involved somewhere.


Your guess is as good as mine... Considering the timing and the surrounding details, maybe something to do with the Inslaw/PROMIS software scandal? That takes us right back into Gunderson territory, of course.

Here's the full text from the PDF of the Customs reports, for easy reference:

Department of the Treasury United States Customs Service

Report of Investigation

To: Resident Agent in Charge Date: 021287 Subject: Finders

This office was contacted by the Tallahassee Police Department on February 5, 1987, who requested assistance in attempting to identify two adult males and six minor children, all taken into custody the previous day. The men, arrested and charged with multiple counts of child abuse, were being very evasive with police in the questions being asked of them pursuant the children and their condition.

This agent contacted SS/A, Bob Harrold, RAC/Reston, Virginia, and requested telephone numbers and names of police persons in area police departments in an attempt to follow-up on two leads which were a Virginia license number and that the children had commented about living in a Washington, D.C., commune.

Subsequently, this office received a telephone call from the Washington, D.C. Metropolitan Police Department inquiring about the men and children. This office put the MPD and the TPD in contact with each other.

Walter F. Kreitlow II Special Agent

Fredric D. Maiduk Resident Agent in Charge

Office of Enforcement 227 N. Bronough St. Rm 6045 Tallahassee, FL 32301

DETAILS OF INVESTIGATION:

On Thursday, February 5, 1987, this office was contacted via telephone by Sergeant JoAnn VanMETER of the Tallahassee Police Department, Juvenile Division. Sgt. VanMETER requested assistance in identifying two adult males and six minor children ages 7 years to 2 years.

The adult males were tentatively identified by TPD as Michael HOULIHAN and Douglas AMMERMAN, both of Washington, D.C. who were arrested the previous day on charges of child abuse.

The police had received an anonymous telephone call relative two well-dressed white men wearing suits and ties in Myers Park, (Tallahassee), apparently watching six dirty and unkempt children in the playground area. HOULIHAN and AMMERMAN were near a 1980 Blue Dodge van bearing Virginia license number XHW-557, the inside of which was later described as foul-smelling filled with maps, books, letters, with a mattress situated to the rear of the van which appeared as if it were used as a bed, and the overall appearance of the van gave the impression that all eight persons were living in it.

The children were covered with insect bites, were very dirty, most of the children were not wearing underwear and all of the children had not been bathed in many days.

The men were arrested and charged with multiple counts of child abuse and lodged in the Leon County Jail. Once in custody the men were somewhat evasive in their answers to the police regarding the children and stated only that they both were the children's teachers and that all were enroute to Mexico to establish a school for brilliant children.

The children tentatively were identified as Mary (deleted), white female, age 7; (deleted) LIVINGSTON, white male, age 6; (deleted) FRANKLIN, white male, age 4; (deleted) EVANS, white female, age 3; B.B., white male, age 2; and that they lived in tents in a commune in the Washington, D.C., area and were going to Mexico to go to a school for smart kids.

This office contacted the Office of the RAC/DC and spoke with SS/A Bob Harrold. This agent requested telephone numbers and names of police persons in area departments that might be aware of said activities described by the children and to follow-up on leads which were the Virginia license number and a check on the men's names with local law enforcement.

A short time later this office was contacted by Detective, Jim Bradley of the Washington, D.C., Metropolitan Police Department. Bradley indicated that the case here in Tallahassee appeared to be strongly related to a case he was currently working in the Washington, D.C. area.

He stated that the actions of the two men in custody in Tallahassee relative the children just might give his case enough probable cause for search warrants to search premises occupied by a cult group called Finders.

This agent directed Bradley to telephone TPD and discuss with police directly any activities forthcoming relative the instant case. At this time it was determined that there was no Customs violations found to exist and therefore, this case is being closed pending receipt of additional information.

ACTION TO BE TAKEN BY LESD/TECS: Create a permanent DRR/TECS record.

IDENTIFYING DATA/TECS-FIN QUERIES: ______________

To: Resident Agent in Charge Date: 02/07/87 From: Special Agent

Subject: Customs cooperation/interest in Tallahassee/Washington MPD child abuse investigation.

On Thursday, 2/5/87, the duty agent, SS/A Bob Harrold, received a call from SS/A Walter Krietlow, USCS, Tallahassee, Florida. SS/A Kreitlow was seeking assistance in contacting an appropriate local police agency to coordinate a child abuse investigation in with the Tallahassee Police Department. SS/A Krietlow further requested assistance in checking some names, addresses and a vehicle through the Customs Child Pornography Unit data base, and stated there was some suspicion of the subjects being involved in supplying children for the production of child pornography. Further, he was informed by the Tallahassee Police Department that the children may have been enroute to Mexico from the Washington, D.C. area. The possibility of Customs interest in the investigation due to possible violations of the Child Protection Act of 1984, and the alleged nexus with the U.S./Mexican Border were discussed and agreed upon. SS/A Krietlow related the following background information. SS/A Krietlow was contacted by the Tallahassee Police Department for assistance in identifying six children and two adults taken into custody in the Tallahassee area. U.S. Customs was contacted because the police officers involved suspected the adults of being involved in child pornography and knew the Customs Service to have a network of child pornography investigators, and of the existence of the Child Pornography and Protection Unit. SS/A Krietlow stated the two adults were well dressed white males. They had custody of six white children (boys and girls), ages three to six years. The children were observed to be poorly dressed, bruised, dirty, and behaving like wild animals in a public park in Tallahassee. The police were notified by a concerned citizen and all eight persons were taken into custody. The subjects were living out of a white 1979 Dodge van, Virginia license no. XHW 557. Upon being taken into custody, the adult white males refused to cooperate, one of whom produced a "business" card with a name on one side and a statement on the other. The statement indicated that the bearer knew his constitutional rights to remain silent and that he intended to do so. Upon interviewing the children, the police officers found that they could not adequately identify themselves or their custodians. Further, they stated that they were enroute to Mexico to attend a school for "smart kids." SS/A Kreitlow was further advised the children were unaware of the function and purpose of telephones, televisions and toilets, and that the children had stated they were not allowed to live indoors and were only given food as a reward.

After receiving the request from Tallahassee, SS/A Harrold contacted me while I was on official business at Customs Headquarters. He requested that I conduct computer checks on the Customs Child Pornography Unit data base. The checks were to be conducted on the names, addresses, and a vehicle provided by SS/A Krietlow. After conducting the computer checks, I made direct contact with SS/A Krietlow to inform him that all the checks were negative. At that time I was informed by SS/A Krietlow that the Tallahassee police had discovered large quantities of records, to include computer discs and a U.S. passport in the van. From some of these records the police had obtained tentative identification of the two adults, and partial identification of the children. Furthermore, the two Washington, D.C. addresses had been discovered through these documents, one of which was verified through the vehicle registration. I advised SS/A Krietlow I was leaving Headquarters and he would be receiving a response to the remainder of his request from SS/A Harrold. I then left as stated and proceeded to conduct other business in the District.

A short time later, at approximately 11:30 a.m., SS/A Harrold contacted me by radio, and advised me that a Detective Jim Bradley of the Washington, D.C. Metropolitan Police Department (MPD) was interested in the information provided by SS/A Krietlow, was in contact with Tallahassee, and would very probably be conducting search warrants in the area later in the day. He also informed me that U.S. Customs was invited to participate due to the continuing possibility of violations of law enforced by the Customs Service. As I was already in Washington, I terminated my other business and proceeded to make contact with Detective Bradley, Intelligence Division, MPD.

Upon contacting Detective Bradley, I learned that he had initiated an investigation on the two addresses provided by the Tallahassee Police Dept. during December of 1986. An informant had given him information regarding a cult, known as the "Finders" operating various businesses out of a warehouse located at 1307 4th St., N.E., and were supposed to be housing children at 3918/3920 W St., N.W. The information was specific in describing "blood rituals" and sexual orgies involving children, and an as yet unsolved murder in which the Finders may be involved. With the information provided by the informant, Detective Bradley was able to match some of the children in Tallahassee with names of children known alleged to be in the custody of the Finders. Furthermore, Bradley was able to match the tentative ID of the adults with known members of the Finders. I stood by while Bradley consulted with AUSA Harry Benner and obtained search warrants for the two premises. I advised acting RAC SS/A Tim Halloran of my intention to accompany MPD on the execution of the warrants, received his permission, and was joined by SS/A Harrold. SS/A Harrold accompanied the team which went to 1307 4th St, and I went to 3918/20 W St.

During the execution of the warrant at 3918/20 W St., I was able to observe and access the entire building. I saw large quantities of children's clothing and toys. The clothing consisting of diapers and clothes in the toddler to pre-school range. No children were found on the premises. There were several subjects on the premises. Only one was deemed to be connected with the Finders. The rest were renting living space from this individual. He was identified as Stuart Miles SILVERSTONE, DOB/061941, U.S. Passport No. (deleted). SILVERSTONE was located in a room equipped with several computers, printers, and numerous documents. Cursory examination of the documents revealed detailed instructions for obtaining children for unspecified purposes. The instructions included the impregnation of female members of the community known as the Finders, purchasing children, trading, and kidnapping. There were telex messages using MCI account numbers between a computer terminal believed to be located in the same room, and others located across the country and in foreign locations. One such telex specifically ordered the purchase of two children in Hong Kong to be be arranged through a contact in the Chinese Embassy there. Another telex expressed interest in "bank secrecy" situations. Other documents identified interests in high-tech transfers to the United Kingdom, numerous properties under the control of the Finders, a keen interest in terrorism, explosives, and the evasion of law enforcement. Also found in the "computer room" was a detailed summary of the events surrounding the arrest and taking into custody of the two adults and six children in Tallahassee the previous night. There were also a set of instructions which appeared to be broadcast via a computer network which advised the participants to move "the children" and keep them moving through different jurisdictions, and instructions on how to avoid police attention.

One of the residents was identified as a Chinese National. Due to the telex discovered referencing the Chinese Embassy in Hong Kong, he was fully identified for future reference: WANG/Gengxin, DOB/092747, POB/Tianjin, People's Republic of China Passport No. (deleted), entered the U.S. on January 22, 1987, admitted until December 31, 1987. He is in the U.S. as a graduate student in the Anatomy Department of Georgetown University. His Visa was issued on November 10, 1986, in London, England, number 00143.

During the course of the evening, I contacted Sector 4 to initiate a TECS check on SILVERSTONE, and initiate an archives check on him for the last four years. I also contacted SS/A Halloran to keep him advised of the proceedings and asked for and received permission to contact SS/A John Sullivan of the CPPU to query some names through the CPPU data base. SS/A Halloran told me he would call Southeast Region Headquarters to keep them posted on the proceedings as well. I later contacted SS/A Sullivan for the stated purpose, and in the discussion that followed I gave him some background on the purpose of the request. I advised him that the information was not for dissemination at Headquarters, that Region was being notified, and that Region would probably contact Headquarters later if deemed necessary. SS/A Sullivan assured me that the information would go no further until official notification was made by Region. No positive matches were obtained from the CPPU data base. I was later joined at the W Street address by SS/A Harrold. SS/A Harrold advised me that there were extremely large quantities of documents and computer equipment at the warehouse, and that MPD was posting officers inside the building there and sealing the building until morning, in which a second warrant for that premises would be obtained and executed. SS/A Harrold also advised me that the news media had been notified and had been waiting for the execution of the warrant at the 4th Street address. Detective Bradley later stated that the MPD Public Information Officer had been contacted by a Tallahassee reporter. When it became apparent that the PIO had no information on the search warrants, the reporter contacted local media representatives and a check of public records containing the affidavits for the search warrants disclosed the locations and purpose of the warrants. Detective Bradley surmised that someone on the Tallahassee Police Department was the original source of the information for the press. I advised SS/A Halloran of the involvement of the press, and he stated that he would, in turn, relay the information to Region. SS/A Harrold and I assisted in the transport of the evidence seized pursuant to the warrant and cleared MPD after the press left the area.

On Friday, 2/6/87, I met Detective Bradley at the warehouse on 4th Street, N.E. I duly advised my acting group supervisor, SS/A Don Bludworth. I was again granted unlimited access to the premises. I was able to observe numerous documents which described explicit sexual conduct between the members of the community known as Finders. I also saw a large collection of photographs of unidentified persons. Some of the photographs were nudes, believed to be of members of the Finders. There were numerous photos of children, some nude, at least one of which was a photo of a child "on display" and appearing to accent the child's genitals. I was only able to examine a very small amount of the photos at this time. However, one of the officers presented me with a photo album for my review. The album contained a series of photos of adults and children dressed in white sheets participating in a "blood ritual." The ritual centered around the execution of at least two goats. The photos portrayed the execution, disembowelment, skinning and dismemberment of the goats at the hands of the children. This included the removal of the testes of a male goat, the discovery of a female goat's "womb" and the "baby goats" inside the womb, and the presentation of a goat's head to one of the children.

Further inspection of the premises disclosed numerous files relating to activities of the organization in different parts of the world. Locations I observed are as follows: London, Germany, the Bahamas, Japan, Hong Kong, Malaysia, Africa, Costa Rica, and "Europe." There was also a file identified as "Palestinian." Other files were identified by member name or "project" name. The projects appearing to be operated for commercial purposes under front names for the Finders. There was one file entitled "Pentagon Break-In," and others referring to members operating in foreign countries. Not observed by me but related by an MPD officer were intelligence files on private families not related to the Finders. The process undertaken appears to be have been a systematic response to local newspaper advertisements for babysitters, tutors, etc. A member of the Finders would respond and gather as much information as possible about the habits, identity, occupation, etc., of the family. The use to which this information was to be put is still unknown. There was also a large amount of data collected on various child care organizations.

The warehouse contained a large library, two kitchens, a sauna, hot-tub, and a "video room." The video room seemed to be set up as an indoctrination center. It also appeared that that the organization had the capability to produce its own videos. There were what appeared to be training areas for children and what appeared to be an altar set up in a residential area of the warehouse. Many jars of urine and feces were located in this area.

I should also mention that both premises were equipped with satellite dish antennas.

I discussed the course of action to be taken by MPD with Detective Bradley. He stated that he was only interested in making the child abuse case(s). I was assured that all of the evidence would be available to U.S. Customs in furtherance of any investigative/criminal action pursued. MPD personnel were to begin around the clock review and sorting of the evidence until completed. Customs will have access after this is accomplished. This will include several U.S. Passports discovered during the search.

Upon leaving the 4th Street premises, I encountered a news media representative and was asked the reason behind U.S. Customs involvement in the investigation. I advised the reporter that I could not discuss anything and I referred her to the PAO/DC. I left immediately thereafter.

There is no further information available at this time. It will take three to five days for all the information to be sorted, reviewed and logged by the MPD. I will maintain contact with Detective Bradley until the evidence is again accessible.

Respectfully submitted,

Ramon J. Martinez Special Agent, USCS

__________

To: Resident Agent in Charge Date: 04/13/87

On Thursday, February 5, 1987, Senior Special Agent Harrold and I assisted the Washington D.C. Metropolitan Police Department (MPD) with two search warrants involving the possible sexual exploitation of children. During the course of the search warrants, numerous documents were discovered which appeared to be concerned with international trafficking in children, high tech transfer to the United Kingdom, and international transfer of currency.

DETAILS OF INVESTIGATION:

On March 31, 1987, I contacted Detective Jim Bradley of the Washington, DC Metropolitan Police Department (MPD). I was to meet with Detective Bradley to review the documents seized pursuant to two search warrants executed in January, 1987. The meeting was to take place on April 2 or 3, 1987.

On April 2, 1987, I arrived at MPD at approximately 9:00 a.m. Detective Bradley was not available. I spoke to a third party who was willing to discuss the case with me on a strictly "off the record" basis.

I was advised that all the passport data had been turned over to the State Department for their investigation. The State Department in turn, advised the MPD that all travel and use of the passports by the holders of the passports was within the law and no action would be taken. This included travel to Moscow, North Korea, and North Vietnam from the late 1950s to mid 1970s.

The individual further advised me of circumstances which indicated that the investigation into the activity of the Finders had become a CIA internal matter. The MPD report has been classified SECRET and was not available for review. I was advised that the FBI had withdrawn from the investigation several weeks prior and that the FBI Foreign Counter Intelligence Division had directed MPD not to advise the FBI Washington Field Office of anything that had transpired.

No further information will be available. No further action will be taken.

ACTION TO BE TAKEN BY LESD/TECS:

No action to be taken on the basis of this report.
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Re: The Finders - Sources

Postby Tyler Rabbit » Sat Jan 17, 2015 1:03 am

I think the idea of asking people what they wanted was a pretty standard tactic to find out about the person. Sometimes the Finders helped people get what they wanted and sometimes they shined them on. Since the Florida incident is what they're mostly known for, it's easy to fixate on that, but I'd recommend reading the book from the beginning. It'll give more context. My doc will cover that whole debacle, but there's so much more to the overall story of the group known as the Finders.

Important to remember that most of the Finders narrative we're familiar with comes from initial mainstream media reports from the shitstorm of '87 and a very readily available document written by a single government employee.. Most of the people involved in the story haven't gone on record because for some it was a brief and or regrettable part of their lives, and I think others figured the story would eventually fade into total obscurity.

I won't get too deep into the customs report because I'm still hoping its author will speak for himself on camera- or in some form.. I think it's more compelling to hear these things from those who experienced it (such as the men who were arrested, the kid's mothers, and the kids themselves), but in the meantime am obviously down to discuss a few things about it since that's the "smoking gun."

I've asked a number of people about the whole Hong Kong telex thing, incl someone who was there when the warehouse was raided, and while they readily acknowledge the goat pics etc they don't know where that part of the report came from. It might help to frame a lot of the Finders behavior like this: adults running around on various experiential learning/earning missions while adding a sort of cloak and dagger flavor to them to make it more exciting and mysterious. The only thing those I've asked can come up with is that the way they sometimes communicated to each other, in sort of a shorthand spycrafty pseudo-military way, was misinterpreted by the individual who wrote the report. The FBI agent who investigated the case was also puzzled by that part of the report and couldn't find any evidence to support they were ordering kids from anywhere, or that such a telex even existed.

As far as I can tell, there are two versions of the customs report: the one we've all seen, and the one that was corrected after the FBI investigated. It begs the question: did the customs report we've all seen come to the net via someone's FOIA or via its initial author? In my interview with the FBI lady, she points out that she never saw the second page where the customs officer talks about being told it was a CIA internal matter, and that it's very unusual for someone to use the words "I spoke to a third party who was willing to discuss the case with me on a strictly 'off the record' basis." ie official internal reports don't say shit like that because they're made by and for officers and investigators, not journalists.. Hoping the report's author will shed some light as I only have the FBI lady's side of the story "on tape" so far...

There were definitely people from all over coming and going. No doubt about that, and a number of Finders, incl Pettie were certainly interested in deep politics, unconventional thinkers, spycraft, etc, but to be frank, in a similar way to many of those on this board. He was into finding out what was going on out there in those worlds, and since this was pre internet-as-we-know-it he relied on a lot of different methods; like talking to people, or inviting them to stay with them, or asking someone to give a lecture to the group etc. He'd send people to other countries, China no doubt being one of them, for their personal growth, but also so they could report back to him what they learned there. The Finders were never really into actively recruiting people or increasing their numbers, but they reached out to a lot of intellectuals, weirdos, and students because that was their whole thing..

There actually were a handful of articles that did shine some light on what happened in '87, but when the mainstream media steamrolls something, they don't usually go back and make corrections.Also, many of those articles haven't made it online. When I hear bloggers who regurgitate the same 8-10 "facts" from the initially flurry of news stories (and the later US News and World Report article) including: "the case was immediately and inexplicably dropped!" I can only assume they haven't read Jon Cohen's City Paper article outlining in extremely minute detail exactly how the case exploded into the headlines and why it was eventually dropped.

As far as getting straight answers. Everyone I've approached about the film has had a different response to the idea. Some were immediately into the idea, others not happy with it. Others, needed to get to know me before they could trust another "media type." ... But I've never felt like anyone was fucking with me. At first there were a lot of questions, and maybe even a little playful gaming, but overall I think that era is long past for most of these people, and the idea of messing with a filmmaker who's earnestly trying to figure out what it was all about, isn't high on their fun list anymore.. Am guessing for a lot of the people I've interviewed they're more interested in contributing to a relatively comprehensive history of the group and looking back on everything that happened to see what can be learned from it.
Last edited by Tyler Rabbit on Sat Jan 17, 2015 2:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Finders - Sources

Postby Tyler Rabbit » Sat Jan 17, 2015 2:31 am

coffin_dodger » Mon Dec 22, 2014 1:16 am wrote:not sure if this has been posted before - however, I noted the following statement from the document as interesting -

http://www.scribd.com/doc/70996637/Finders-Cult

"During the course of the search warrants, numerous documents were discovered which appeared to be concerned with international trafficking in children, high tech transfer to the United Kingdom and international transfer of currency. [bold added]

I wonder what 'high tech transfer' is? The bloody UK always seems to be involved somewhere.


Drawing associations and rapidly comparing details and geographies to see if they match other details and geographies is awesome. It's how we figure shit out, but on the Uk thing, I mean it's like, if cops busted into my place right now, they'd find numerous "high tech transfers" to and from other countries incl France am sure. Does that mean I'm personally connected to Charlie Hebdo? In 2012 I may have emailed a friend in Colorado, does that mean I'm somehow involved in the Aurora shooting? Then if you ask me or the cops about it 30 years later would any of us remember what the email even said?

In my case the transfers are emails and, if am lucky, an occasional Paypal payment- In the Finders case it could mean fax, telex, printouts of MCI mail, and the report doesn't say fund transfers, so who knows. If the implication is that The Finders could somehow be connected to the vile shit coming out of the UK now, I just don't see the report's mention of high tech communication with the UK as enough to go on. Coulda been an inquiry to end a debate as to whether the brits really do like their toast done on one side.

So while I've been looking deep into stuff like the customs report, I think it's also extremely important to get up from in front of the computer and actually go and investigate stuff in person and dig even deeper into the personalities and social contexts at work. Massive can o' worms but over the past few months I've read many MANY threads here and elsewhere about the TDJB DE saga (incl every damn post in the "yr doin' it wrong!" thread). I've lost entire days to it.. and i just finished interviewing Joseph Matheny about his interest in Pettie and the Finders, and we spoke a bit off camera... and if in the beginning DE coulda just picked up the fucking phone, or skype, or ideally met up with Matheny in person, it woulda answered nearly all his questions. Web sleuthing, FOIAs etc are fine but they have limits and pitfalls.

Sorry am not trying to be a dick or troll or trolldick, I know it's a sore dead horse here; a sure way to get a thread buried.. and when i first stumbled upon the TDJB DE saga I didn't intend to keep reading about it, but it really grabbed me and has been on my mind a lot because it's such an amazing example of someone needlessly going (and being led by a potentially psychotic southern paralegal) down a dark ugly fucked up rabbit hole (and then finding his way out again.) All because he did most of his investigation strictly from a computer and shared everything he was learning as he was learning it. Not slamming the guy. Am glad he found his way out!

I may be making a mistake by sharing things I learn as I learn them, but like I said, documentaries take so damn long and am enjoying the dialogue here.
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Re: The Finders - Sources

Postby Tyler Rabbit » Sat Jan 17, 2015 2:59 am

Rather than totally believe that all of this information regarding child trafficking was found at the warehouse, maybe the reality of what was found was "just" documentation of a counterintelligence operation.

Pettie had a long career as a driver/aid to military intelligence higher ups, and there may have been an occasional spook coming/going. Those are two things I can't rule out. The first is verifiable, the second a reasonable assumption. Everyone I've talked to claims the info gathering and international relations component of the Finders was more of a private info network and sort of bureaucracy party-crashing than a conduit to actual alphabet agencies.. but yeah a few of the intelligence connections/history are undeniable- but also not particularly held in secret.
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Re: The Finders - Sources

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Sat Jan 17, 2015 1:49 pm

it's very unusual for someone to use the words "I spoke to a third party who was willing to discuss the case with me on a strictly 'off the record' basis." ie official internal reports don't say shit like that


Always bothered me and a major reason I started abandoning the "surface value" narrative on The Finders.

I need to read the book, but my comment here is a blanket statement: history, especially recent history, is chock full of intelligent, capable people who were shocked to discover a large portion of their life was a black budget funded meta-fictional production. The nature of compartmentalization is such that nobody involved with The Finders would need to know, at any point, about Pettie's extra-curricular interests and ongoing operations.

That is what makes the field so maddening, though. An exquisite double bind: we make fools of ourselves by assuming such improbably complex operations exist, yet the whole purpose of intelligence work is to operate just beyond those boundaries of credibility and common sense. "Weird" is perfect cover, and perhaps always will be.
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Re: The Finders - Sources

Postby Tyler Rabbit » Sun Jan 25, 2015 3:11 am

Yeah I mean it's not a matter of whether they were gathering info, I guess the question is for who. It's something I've gone back and forth on. If I could have met Pettie, it might help me form an assessment, and maybe not. I've talked to a lot of people who knew him, and in some way I do think he was like a canvas onto which people projected their own notions- and I think he'll continue to be..

It seems clear that there were a lot of people in the group not actively engaged, knowingly or otherwise, in anything that could be considered espionage etc. ie why would the PTB have any interest in growing tomatoes, working temp jobs, helping college kids cheat on term papers, and raising kids in nature? If Pettie was doing some extra-curricular stuff for a govt entity, I'd guess he was doing it on his own or with 1 or two others.. and so, if we remove the child abuse MK aspect, and remove the idea that the whole group was acting as some sort of well funded spy unit, what's left? A really weird/cool and interesting group being led by a major eccentric who had ties past, and possibly ongoing, to military intelligence. But should we continue to associate The Finders with Franklin, Dutroux etc? As far as I can tell the only association the Finders have with Franklin is that Gunderson used to sell a packet for $10 with info on both cases.

Hanging out on this forum continues to be extremely helpful. It's made me realize there's no need to hold the entire SRA MK phenomenon up to a microscope- just the role The Finders mythos plays in it. In other words, am not trying to cut down the whole tree, just remove one fucked up branch that prolly belongs on a different one. Anyway, flick aint over yet, so anything can happen I suppose...
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Re: The Finders - Sources

Postby Plutonia » Sun Jan 25, 2015 12:25 pm

Mr Rabbit, I recommend that you read this thread for some historical background on pro-pedophilic interest in "educating children in nature":

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=37924&hilit=fabian+guruilla#p539084
[the British] government always kept a kind of standing army of news writers who without any regard to truth, or to what should be like truth, invented & put into the papers whatever might serve the minister

T Jefferson,
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Re: The Finders - Sources

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Sun Jan 25, 2015 1:40 pm

Tyler Rabbit » Sun Jan 25, 2015 2:11 am wrote:As far as I can tell the only association the Finders have with Franklin is that Gunderson used to sell a packet for $10 with info on both cases.


I would definitely agree with that assessment.
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Re: The Finders - Sources

Postby Tyler Rabbit » Sun Jan 25, 2015 4:40 pm

Plutonia » Sun Jan 25, 2015 9:25 am wrote:Mr Rabbit, I recommend that you read this thread for some historical background on pro-pedophilic interest in "educating children in nature":

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=37924&hilit=fabian+guruilla#p539084


Thanks, I read it.
Wanting to expose kids to nature isn't synonymous with wanting to expose oneself to kids. It's very sad that horrors like this are associated with raising kids in nature. I spent a lot of time in nature as a kid, and was not molested... I think millions of kids have spent a lot of time in nature without being molested. I went to a Jr. High ran by a gaggle of hippies, a couple lesbians, and other far-left adults. A couple times a year we'd pile into two vans (sound familiar?) and head to the High Sierras or Baja CA and camp for up to 2 weeks. I was never molested and am not aware of anyone else being molested..
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Re: The Finders - Sources

Postby Plutonia » Sun Jan 25, 2015 9:28 pm

Glad to read that you weren't molested in the woods, Mr Rabbit, but I think that you may have missed my point, which was just to be cautious and thorough, because look where it went in the UK. That's all.
[the British] government always kept a kind of standing army of news writers who without any regard to truth, or to what should be like truth, invented & put into the papers whatever might serve the minister

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