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Re: The Finders - Sources

PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:26 pm
by Tyler Rabbit
I'll just say keep in mind that the reason we all know about this case is probably because of the Customs report.. and the reason that it's lumped in with Franklin and Gosch is because of the child abuse angle.. once the validity of those two things comes into question, a lot of other things come into to question too. Also the US News & World Report article doesn't do much for me. Around that time I believe the author of The Customs report started circulating it to various Congress members and media. The dude who wrote the article and the lawmakers mentioned therein did a bit of further research and came up empty-handed. My initial foia request to the FBI mostly came back with stuff from around the time the article was written.

Re: The Finders - Sources

PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:31 am
by Marionumber1
Tyler Rabbit » Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:26 pm wrote:I'll just say keep in mind that the reason we all know about this case is probably because of the Customs report.. and the reason that it's lumped in with Franklin and Gosch is because of the child abuse angle.. once the validity of those two things comes into question, a lot of other things come into to question too.


Agreed, but I'm wondering how you think that reflects on Martinez. Do you think that even the specific details that I highlighted (jars of urine and feces, purchase orders for children, and documents implying an interest in terrorism) were just the result of mistakes, not malicious intent on his part? And what about him adding the CIA mention to the report? It seems like he was either reporting faithfully or he was somehow motivated to create a deceptive report with false information.

Re: The Finders - Sources

PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:49 am
by Marionumber1
And cptmarginal, to address another one of your comments from a couple years back:

cptmarginal » Wed Mar 26, 2014 3:33 pm wrote:Stunningly naive, verging on purposely deceitful. Is fantasypopper actually Amazon arch-reviewer Vindalf, or perhaps one of his friends? I know that person is still actively monitoring these sorts of topics.


Yes, fantasypopper is definitely Vindalf. I've documented the near-dozen aliases that he uses, some of which might be familiar to long-time RI members.

Re: The Finders - Sources

PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:26 pm
by Marionumber1
Derrick Broze of The Conscious Resistance, who was covering the Jeffrey Epstein case for a while, has been investigating the Finders recently. He's released a series of videos (part 1 here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8eLCWiL2zo) and plans to have a documentary on the Finders out soon. It synthesizes the existing government documents (from US Customs, the FBI, the Tallahassee police...) and news articles, as well as some new interviews with Customs agent Ramon J. Martinez and former Finders member Robert Terrell. It'll be interesting to see exactly what conclusions he draws.

Re: The Finders - Sources

PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2019 7:03 pm
by Wombaticus Rex
The FBI has opted to get into the conversation:
https://vault.fbi.gov/the-finders

Timing is interesting for many reasons.

Re: The Finders - Sources

PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:38 pm
by cptmarginal
Image

Biggest takeaway so far is that there are crucial details missing regarding:
-Stuart, FL Montessori school
-Future Enterprises training of CIA employees, other Finders companies
-Registration status of the van
-Role of Sgt. John Stycher/Stitcher (deceased)

A handwritten document states that the Finders is "def not a CIA front" and another typed document states that the materials which were purportedly seized (as described in the Customs report by Martinez) do not exist. Stitcher is supposedly the one who had access to these materials, and who died in the course of the investigation:



https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/1992/06/02/charles-little-navy-captain-dies-at-72/37f678d4-4369-4a50-9ad2-9b8ea599c2cb/?utm_term=.f63a7ac3bea3

JOHN H. STITCHER JR.

D.C. Police Officer

John H. Stitcher Jr., 48, a retired D.C. police sergeant who had been a security officer with the Australian Embassy here since September, died of septic shock May 28 at Southern Maryland Hospital.

He moved here and joined the D.C. police in 1969. He was a uniformed officer with the second and sixth districts and then was a plainclothes officer in internal affairs and the intelligence division. He retired in 1989.

Mr. Stitcher, who lived in Upper Marlboro, was born in Cumberland, Md. He served in the Army from 1961 to 1969, becoming a staff sergeant. He was stationed part of the time in West Germany.

He was a member of St. Mary of the Assumption Catholic Church in Upper Marlboro. He had done volunteer work at the church's school.

Re: The Finders - Sources

PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:52 pm
by cptmarginal
This chronology sure makes it seem like the seized evidence was genuine. The warehouse was the "site of previous MPD Intel inquiry involving classified maps of underground tunnel/sewer system, Washington, DC." One can only wonder what was redacted here:

Image

Also, the specific allegations about the Virginia farm continue to be important (and totally separate from the Customs report, crucially.)

The guy who was one of Pettie's biggest defenders in the press turned out to have been a big-time Moonie:

Carl Shapley, who is named in Mr. Terrell's letter as the financial developer for "New Hope," said yesterday that he is trying to correct what he calls "this wild imaginative thing along the lines of a cult." He described members of the group as "gentle people" searching for "new dimensions in life-styles."

He said he is angry at reports that the children on their Virginia properties were frequently heard by neighbors screaming. "Anyone who knows children, knows that they are delighted when they scream."

Shapley said he had heard about the slaughter of animals on the Virginia properties, but denied the acts were connected to any rituals.


Ambassador for Peace Dr Carl Shapley, (Carlo), passed away. His funeral was held in Moldova on August 17th at 14.00 British Summer Time. For an insight into his life please see this interview about Albert Einstein (Link) and the Defining Moment interview by Ajay Rai. He has been a longtime supporter of UPF and preceding organisations with the uncanny ability of turning up in the UK at the right times to support our major activities.


Reminder:

Under Varga's instructions, Pettie recruited a network of agents in Europe,
including Dr. Keith Arnold (recruited in Paris in 1958) who he accompanied to
Moscow in 1959 or 1960. Arnold, currently based in Hong Kong with the Roche
Foundation, has made over 40 trips to mainland China and has stayed in contact
with Pettie. In the 1960s Pettie established connections with the 'beat'
movement. Norman Mailer and Dick Dabney (died in November 1981) frequented his
Virginia farm. Dabney's widow Dana has extensive files on Pettie. Peter
Gillingham (intermediate Technology. Palo Alto, CA) and Christopher Sonne
(currently Goldman saches, NY) met Pettie in Moscow in 1961. In the early 60s
Pettie allowed Ralph Borsodi and Mildred Loomis to use his Virginia property
for the School of Living, a 'decentralist' one-world government front
organization. Around 1964 Pettie recruited Bosco Nedelcovic and deployed him
to penetrate the Institute for Policy Studies (he is currently an interpreter
at the war College in Washington). In 1967 or 1968 Pettie established a
'futurist, network, assisting Edward S. Cornish in founding the World Future
Society and working through Roy Mason and John Naisbitt. At this time Pettie
also penetrated the hippy drug culture through retired naval intelligence
officers Wait Schneider (Timothy Leary and Billy Hitchcock's private pilot)
and Willard Poulsen (cut out bewtween[sic] Pettie activities and those of
Leary at millbrook), In 1971 Pettie infiltrated the 'human potential'
movement, setting up Ken Kesey (Living Love) as a prominent guru and working
through Dr. Stephen Beltz (related to Judith Beltz, a behavior modification
specialist more recently deployed to the Institute of Cultural Affairs and the
Meta Network cult.

Re: The Finders - Sources

PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2019 11:14 pm
by cptmarginal
Reminder: "Total deleted pages = 176"

Here is another document that seems to change the story:

Image

A confidential source stated that the Finders "were conducting brainwashing techniques at [redacted] The source reported that children were used in rituals by the groups, but reported source never observed any actual child abuse."

"MPD seized computers, software, photographs, and biographical information concerning the Finders group from these locations. No evidence of child sexual exploitation, kidnapping, or any related crimes was observed, or obtained from this search."

A couple of pages later it is stated that "WMFO files also contained a 10/7/92 extortion case" but all of the subsequent details were provocatively redacted:

Image

Re: The Finders - Sources

PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2019 11:15 pm
by cptmarginal
This PDF is really dynamite. What in the hell could be in the missing pages?

Image

So the story actually starts at least as early as December of 1986, with a confidential female source who reported on the Finders "cult". It continues into January 1987, when she made contact again to state that they were "interested in exploring satanism." In February of 1987, the van was discovered in the park.

"Although no children were found large amounts of documents dealing with child rearing and shaping were recovered along with manuals for master plans and 'dirty tricks' for enemies of the Finders group. All this information was turned over to the Florida authorities for evaluation."

So would that mean that records or even the content of these documents exists somewhere?

Hold onto your hats before reading the next part of this report (or reading between the redacted lines, as it were)

Image

A quasi-military organization which harassed former members to the point of violence and the necessity of police intervention. Arson committed against ex-members, attempts to infiltrate a redacted three-letter agency.

Family members of the children in question from Tallahassee stated that the children were brainwashed and isolated from parents. "Members of the Finders, according to family members would stop any contact by sending letters describing explict [sic] sexual acts involving current members, including photographs and drawings." In one case, Finders attempted to take over a woman's family residence and force her out of her home.

About the farm in Virginia: "this group appeared to be a survivialist [sic] organization with attempts to take over the city government in Culpepper Virginia. During Virginia States investigation information was revealed that bodies were buried on the farm at the Nethers, but excavation revealed nothing. However, cages were discovered on the premises that witnesses revealed were used to keep children during their visits to the farm."

Next up is a description of contact with the Finders starting in 1971 "including a recent report dealing with C.I.A. involvement with at least one of the members of the Finders passing information overseas concerning activities of the Central Intelligence Agency." Immediately after this, direct confirmation is provided that the CIA "stated that they were monitoring this investigation from the beginning."

Here is a close-up of the summary, for easier reading:

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Re: The Finders - Sources

PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2019 11:35 pm
by cptmarginal
The CIA was certainly involved in the investigation, that is now beyond a shadow of a doubt. (It was already public knowledge as far back as 1993 that the CIA was involved with Future Enterprises in some secret capacity.)

The redacted paragraph here must be simply explosive in content. I had previously wondered why the FOIA'd documents released two years ago contained references to a London aspect of the investigation, and now it is apparent what that may be about. A disk that "could explain a lot about the groups funding, which we have been unable to document to this point."

Also, more confirmation that the Customs report was likely accurate. Specifically the part about passports indicating travel to Moscow, North Korea and North Vietnam.

Image

Re: The Finders - Sources

PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2019 8:29 pm
by Marionumber1
cptmarginal » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:52 pm wrote:This chronology sure makes it seem like the seized evidence was genuine. The warehouse was the "site of previous MPD Intel inquiry involving classified maps of underground tunnel/sewer system, Washington, DC." One can only wonder what was redacted here:

Image


Thanks to a 1990s report on the Finders, we can get a sense of what was redacted:

J. Orlin Grabbe, "End of Ordinary Money, Part I" wrote:As the investigation proceeded, the "CIA made one contact and admitted to owning the Finders organization as a front for a domestic computer training operation, but that it had 'gone bad.' CIA defers all further contacts to FCIA (Foreign Counter Intelligence Agency). FCIA is distinct and autonomous organization within FBI. . . . FCIA contacts [Washington] MPD Intelligence and advised that all reports regarding Finders are to be classified at the Secret level. FCIA also advised that no information was to be turned over to the FBI WFO [Washington Field Office] for investigation, and that the WFO would not be advised of the CIA or FCIA involvement/contact."

Re: The Finders - Sources

PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:32 pm
by Wombaticus Rex
I'm fascinated by the snippet on pg. 300 about "Pollard, Jonathan Jay" -- as near as I can parse it, this is an automated response to a records request indicating that either 1) there are Finders members on file associated with the Pollard case or 2) a protected source related to the Finders case furnished information in 1987 about the Pollard case?

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Re: The Finders - Sources

PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:42 pm
by American Dream
I'm finding the parallels between this story and that of the cult schools Tulsi Gabbard participated in to be so interesting- the abuse and trauma were on different levels but the intention to brainwash children was the same.

Re: The Finders - Sources

PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:54 pm
by Wombaticus Rex
American Dream » Sun Oct 27, 2019 12:42 pm wrote:I'm finding the parallels between this story and that of the cult schools Tulsi Gabbard participated in to be so interesting- the abuse and trauma were on different levels but the intention to brainwash children was the same.


It's all the same banal fucking blueprint with these cut-out cults, yeah. NXIVM was no different. MK was the template, across the board. The democratization of mindfuckers, inc.

Re: The Finders - Sources

PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:51 pm
by Harvey
American Dream » Sun Oct 27, 2019 6:42 pm wrote:I'm finding the parallels between this story and that of the cult schools Tulsi Gabbard participated in to be so interesting- the abuse and trauma were on different levels but the intention to brainwash children was the same.


Nice opportunism. CULTure does tend to be something absorbed without one's volition.