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Agent Orange Cooper » 25 Nov 2015 22:39 wrote:I've spent plenty of time listening to men talk about their problems. Everyone has, because men have been doing this very publicly, from positions of authority, for a long, long time. Aside from your puzzling use of the phrase "what amounts to" in reference to male genital mutilation (it is genital mutilation, period), I have no problems with anybody discussing any of those issues. Unless you are denying female oppression outright like many MRAs do (in which case, we live with reality-tunnels different enough that continuing this discussion would be pointless), I don't even disagree.
What I don't understand is the idea that any of this should be blamed on or dealt with by feminists, who have enough on their plate already, what with trying to reverse several thousand years of having a boot on their collective face. It does seem like the MRA crowd are more interested in getting feminists to acknowledge men's rights issues (ie, capitulate to their entitled sense of authority) than they are in actually doing anything about those issues. That's a generalization, but an accurate one from what I can tell.
Also, posting on reddit expecting rational discussion is a mistake any way you slice it. I'd like to think this place is different (which is why I've broken my forum-fast to post here), but I'm rapidly losing that sense of optimism.
tapitsbo » 25 Nov 2015 23:43 wrote:Reddit is a deeply distorted space for conversation. Otherwise we would have no need for places like RI. Fuck Reddit.
tapitsbo » 26 Nov 2015 02:27 wrote:I really don't know if it's representative of the general public. It seems certain kinds of people like reddit but lots don't.
Also slomo I may or may not agree with some of what you're saying but you're definitely mistaking political memes/tropes that aren't meant to come with a justification included for actual arguments meant for discussion, evaluation, etc. I sense this is causing frustration that could be bad for your health, trust me I would know
Agent Orange Cooper » Thu Nov 26, 2015 12:36 am wrote:I've never heard anyone claim feminism "already does that."
slomo wrote:tapitsbo » 26 Nov 2015 02:27 wrote:I really don't know if it's representative of the general public. It seems certain kinds of people like reddit but lots don't.
Also slomo I may or may not agree with some of what you're saying but you're definitely mistaking political memes/tropes that aren't meant to come with a justification included for actual arguments meant for discussion, evaluation, etc. I sense this is causing frustration that could be bad for your health, trust me I would know
Do you really think I can't tell the difference between "political memes" and arguments that are carefully laid out? And, no, some of the really egregious ideas coming from feminism are more than just memes, or are you going to trot out a No True Scotsman fallacy?
Your language is very presumptive. You presume to know what I'm mistaking, and you are presuming a "frustrated" emotional state, which I actually find kind of comical because I view this forum as entertainment, the internet version of having a bar conversation after work. For all the rhetoric I hear from feminists about how men make make all kinds of assumptions and projections about women and their emotions, you can almost always count on the reverse to happen, a feminist telling a man what he thinks and feels.
Speaking of RI as entertainment, I really do need to attend to my real life, i.e. the needs of my partner and our families who are visiting for Thanksgiving.
I hope you all have a good Thanksgiving, even if I vehemently disagree with your positions on political and social issues!
tapitsbo » 26 Nov 2015 09:10 wrote:slomo wrote:tapitsbo » 26 Nov 2015 02:27 wrote:I really don't know if it's representative of the general public. It seems certain kinds of people like reddit but lots don't.
Also slomo I may or may not agree with some of what you're saying but you're definitely mistaking political memes/tropes that aren't meant to come with a justification included for actual arguments meant for discussion, evaluation, etc. I sense this is causing frustration that could be bad for your health, trust me I would know
Do you really think I can't tell the difference between "political memes" and arguments that are carefully laid out? And, no, some of the really egregious ideas coming from feminism are more than just memes, or are you going to trot out a No True Scotsman fallacy?
Your language is very presumptive. You presume to know what I'm mistaking, and you are presuming a "frustrated" emotional state, which I actually find kind of comical because I view this forum as entertainment, the internet version of having a bar conversation after work. For all the rhetoric I hear from feminists about how men make make all kinds of assumptions and projections about women and their emotions, you can almost always count on the reverse to happen, a feminist telling a man what he thinks and feels.
Speaking of RI as entertainment, I really do need to attend to my real life, i.e. the needs of my partner and our families who are visiting for Thanksgiving.
I hope you all have a good Thanksgiving, even if I vehemently disagree with your positions on political and social issues!
That's not quite what I meant. You seemed to me to be making reasoned appeals to these "egregious ideas" when I find they are usually deployed disingenuously, and in an effort to shut down discussion rather than further it (I get the impression this itself is a symptom of frustration and an increasingly less successful tactic).
Which is not to say that other areas of feminism and gender politics aren't full of lively arguments.
What would the best messaging and audiences be to start changing the sort of police/institutional attitudes to males on the receiving end of domestic violence? They are indeed often in a difficult situation especially when low income, precarious housing, and mental health issues are involved. Probably, at least in many cases, begging Reddit feminists to see this side of the story isn't going to get the greatest results.
You mentioned frustration yourself, not necessarily emotional frustration it seems.
I would never call myself a feminist, especially given the strong criticism by feminists of men calling themselves feminists - why bother applying the term to myself, then?
American Dream » Fri Nov 27, 2015 8:28 am wrote:
Do you think that Donovan and the Wolves are not somehow really, really bad news?
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