Masculinities of the far right

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Re: Masculinities of the far right

Postby Agent Orange Cooper » Thu Nov 26, 2015 2:39 am

I've spent plenty of time listening to men talk about their problems. Everyone has, because men have been doing this very publicly, from positions of authority, for a long, long time. Aside from your puzzling use of the phrase "what amounts to" in reference to male genital mutilation (it is genital mutilation, period), I have no problems with anybody discussing any of those issues. Unless you are denying female oppression outright like many MRAs do (in which case, we live with reality-tunnels different enough that continuing this discussion would be pointless), I don't even disagree.

What I don't understand is the idea that any of this should be blamed on or dealt with by feminists, who have enough on their plate already, what with trying to reverse several thousand years of having a boot on their collective face. It does seem like the MRA crowd are more interested in getting feminists to acknowledge men's rights issues (ie, capitulate to their entitled sense of authority) than they are in actually doing anything about those issues. That's a generalization, but an accurate one from what I can tell.

Also, posting on reddit expecting rational discussion is a mistake any way you slice it. I'd like to think this place is different (which is why I've broken my forum-fast to post here), but I'm rapidly losing that sense of optimism.
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Re: Masculinities of the far right

Postby slomo » Thu Nov 26, 2015 2:58 am

Agent Orange Cooper » 25 Nov 2015 22:39 wrote:I've spent plenty of time listening to men talk about their problems. Everyone has, because men have been doing this very publicly, from positions of authority, for a long, long time. Aside from your puzzling use of the phrase "what amounts to" in reference to male genital mutilation (it is genital mutilation, period), I have no problems with anybody discussing any of those issues. Unless you are denying female oppression outright like many MRAs do (in which case, we live with reality-tunnels different enough that continuing this discussion would be pointless), I don't even disagree.

What I don't understand is the idea that any of this should be blamed on or dealt with by feminists, who have enough on their plate already, what with trying to reverse several thousand years of having a boot on their collective face. It does seem like the MRA crowd are more interested in getting feminists to acknowledge men's rights issues (ie, capitulate to their entitled sense of authority) than they are in actually doing anything about those issues. That's a generalization, but an accurate one from what I can tell.

Also, posting on reddit expecting rational discussion is a mistake any way you slice it. I'd like to think this place is different (which is why I've broken my forum-fast to post here), but I'm rapidly losing that sense of optimism.

Women have real problems. Fewer now than 50 years ago, which is why third-wave feminism seems ridiculous by comparison with earlier waves. Problems that still exist: in some professional fields, it can still be difficult for women to be taken seriously; some men have really shitty ideas about women as persons, which finds its ultimate expression in sexual assault (but, honestly, some women have really shitty opinions about men as persons, leading to e.g. false accusations of sexual assault, which also does happen, so in my opinion the real issue is shitty, shallow people).

Whether feminism should deal with the problems of men is irrelevant, because it demonstrably doesn't. If you want to push me on the issue, I suppose it shouldn't, but on the other hand the whole "battle-of-the-sexes" approach to all of these problems is really counter-productive, when you consider that the entire kaleidoscope of apparent gender-relations issues is explained simply by people behaving in the worst ways personally available to them as individuals, in response to extreme economic and social pressure from above. But if you come out as a "masculinist" (lord how I hate that term), most people who have some superficial passing knowledge of MRAs will look at you like you've grown a penis on your forehead. And, though you may have disdain for Reddit, it is the most visible, widely used democratic forum for discussing just about anything more than 3 people want to discuss, even with all its warts. So it is a passable enough representative for how discussions on political topics tend to go. Unless you want to look to Facebook, which has an even lower frequency vibration.
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Re: Masculinities of the far right

Postby tapitsbo » Thu Nov 26, 2015 3:43 am

Reddit is a deeply distorted space for conversation. Otherwise we would have no need for places like RI. Fuck Reddit.
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Re: Masculinities of the far right

Postby slomo » Thu Nov 26, 2015 4:41 am

tapitsbo » 25 Nov 2015 23:43 wrote:Reddit is a deeply distorted space for conversation. Otherwise we would have no need for places like RI. Fuck Reddit.

Distorted in comparison to what? Your cherished viewpoints?

The reason I use Reddit as an example is because a very large number of people from all over the world use Reddit to have discussions about a very large number of topics. Yes, it has its distortions, but if you want a forum that faithfully represents the opinions of the English-speaking portion of the world, Reddit is a far better choice than RI, which represents a very small minority of opinions, most of them arcane. The fact that you like the discussions on RI more than the ones on Reddit does not mean that Reddit is a distorted space. In fact, it probably means this one is.

As an aside, FB is distorted by the lack of anonymity. People won't tell you their real opinions if doing so has real social consequences.
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Re: Masculinities of the far right

Postby tapitsbo » Thu Nov 26, 2015 6:10 am

Distorted by the upvote system, shadowbanning, entryism and surveillance by groups within the site that can't itself be discussed, etc. Special powers with regards to moderation that are not transparent, too.

It's not the opinions of the site that are distorted, it's the format.

I am not suggesting that RI is the alternative to Reddit, rather that an array of decentralized spaces is not only preferable but will prevail (the multiverse wills it).

Why is it always possible to find a higher quality version of most all the discussions on Reddit in other places?

Reddit and Wikipedia not only should but will die off, with any luck.
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Re: Masculinities of the far right

Postby slomo » Thu Nov 26, 2015 6:19 am

I never said Reddit was the pinnacle of quality. I just said it is somewhat representative of the general public.

Do you not think there may be a difference between the two?
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Re: Masculinities of the far right

Postby tapitsbo » Thu Nov 26, 2015 6:27 am

I really don't know if it's representative of the general public. It seems certain kinds of people like reddit but lots don't.

Also slomo I may or may not agree with some of what you're saying but you're definitely mistaking political memes/tropes that aren't meant to come with a justification included for actual arguments meant for discussion, evaluation, etc. I sense this is causing frustration that could be bad for your health, trust me I would know
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Re: Masculinities of the far right

Postby slomo » Thu Nov 26, 2015 12:28 pm

tapitsbo » 26 Nov 2015 02:27 wrote:I really don't know if it's representative of the general public. It seems certain kinds of people like reddit but lots don't.

Also slomo I may or may not agree with some of what you're saying but you're definitely mistaking political memes/tropes that aren't meant to come with a justification included for actual arguments meant for discussion, evaluation, etc. I sense this is causing frustration that could be bad for your health, trust me I would know

Do you really think I can't tell the difference between "political memes" and arguments that are carefully laid out? And, no, some of the really egregious ideas coming from feminism are more than just memes, or are you going to trot out a No True Scotsman fallacy?

Your language is very presumptive. You presume to know what I'm mistaking, and you are presuming a "frustrated" emotional state, which I actually find kind of comical because I view this forum as entertainment, the internet version of having a bar conversation after work. For all the rhetoric I hear from feminists about how men make make all kinds of assumptions and projections about women and their emotions, you can almost always count on the reverse to happen, a feminist telling a man what he thinks and feels.

Speaking of RI as entertainment, I really do need to attend to my real life, i.e. the needs of my partner and our families who are visiting for Thanksgiving.

I hope you all have a good Thanksgiving, even if I vehemently disagree with your positions on political and social issues!
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Re: Masculinities of the far right

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Thu Nov 26, 2015 1:01 pm

Agent Orange Cooper » Thu Nov 26, 2015 12:36 am wrote:I've never heard anyone claim feminism "already does that."


One major downside to being on Twitter to any extent is how quickly the constellation of cultural strawmen collapse into actual experiences with actual people.

You get left wondering if they could possibly be serious, if it wasn't some kind of joke or performance art statement. You indulge fantasies of massive Persona Management arrays being wielded by well-intentioned fresh Georgetown graduates trying to "change the tone of the national conversation."

You still get left with the cold feeling everyone actually means it.

Always important to qualify "Anglophone Culture" vs. "Rigorous Intuition," of course -- nobody claims that here. But it definitely happens out there beyond the Login Walls.

(There's a mirror version of this dynamic in the anti-racism community, whereby whites just can't realize how much accepting their original sin will liberate them. That's a pretty classic maneuver in any social change movement, though -- ie, Marxist contempt for the lumpenproles of the actual working class, and their "False Consciousness.")

Je te comprends, mais je ne te crois pas!
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Re: Masculinities of the far right

Postby tapitsbo » Thu Nov 26, 2015 1:10 pm

slomo wrote:
tapitsbo » 26 Nov 2015 02:27 wrote:I really don't know if it's representative of the general public. It seems certain kinds of people like reddit but lots don't.

Also slomo I may or may not agree with some of what you're saying but you're definitely mistaking political memes/tropes that aren't meant to come with a justification included for actual arguments meant for discussion, evaluation, etc. I sense this is causing frustration that could be bad for your health, trust me I would know

Do you really think I can't tell the difference between "political memes" and arguments that are carefully laid out? And, no, some of the really egregious ideas coming from feminism are more than just memes, or are you going to trot out a No True Scotsman fallacy?

Your language is very presumptive. You presume to know what I'm mistaking, and you are presuming a "frustrated" emotional state, which I actually find kind of comical because I view this forum as entertainment, the internet version of having a bar conversation after work. For all the rhetoric I hear from feminists about how men make make all kinds of assumptions and projections about women and their emotions, you can almost always count on the reverse to happen, a feminist telling a man what he thinks and feels.

Speaking of RI as entertainment, I really do need to attend to my real life, i.e. the needs of my partner and our families who are visiting for Thanksgiving.

I hope you all have a good Thanksgiving, even if I vehemently disagree with your positions on political and social issues!


That's not quite what I meant. You seemed to me to be making reasoned appeals to these "egregious ideas" when I find they are usually deployed disingenuously, and in an effort to shut down discussion rather than further it (I get the impression this itself is a symptom of frustration and an increasingly less successful tactic).

Which is not to say that other areas of feminism and gender politics aren't full of lively arguments.

What would the best messaging and audiences be to start changing the sort of police/institutional attitudes to males on the receiving end of domestic violence? They are indeed often in a difficult situation especially when low income, precarious housing, and mental health issues are involved. Probably, at least in many cases, begging Reddit feminists to see this side of the story isn't going to get the greatest results.

You mentioned frustration yourself, not necessarily emotional frustration it seems.

I would never call myself a feminist, especially given the strong criticism by feminists of men calling themselves feminists - why bother applying the term to myself, then?
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Re: Masculinities of the far right

Postby American Dream » Thu Nov 26, 2015 3:25 pm

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Re: Masculinities of the far right

Postby slomo » Fri Nov 27, 2015 3:41 am

tapitsbo » 26 Nov 2015 09:10 wrote:
slomo wrote:
tapitsbo » 26 Nov 2015 02:27 wrote:I really don't know if it's representative of the general public. It seems certain kinds of people like reddit but lots don't.

Also slomo I may or may not agree with some of what you're saying but you're definitely mistaking political memes/tropes that aren't meant to come with a justification included for actual arguments meant for discussion, evaluation, etc. I sense this is causing frustration that could be bad for your health, trust me I would know

Do you really think I can't tell the difference between "political memes" and arguments that are carefully laid out? And, no, some of the really egregious ideas coming from feminism are more than just memes, or are you going to trot out a No True Scotsman fallacy?

Your language is very presumptive. You presume to know what I'm mistaking, and you are presuming a "frustrated" emotional state, which I actually find kind of comical because I view this forum as entertainment, the internet version of having a bar conversation after work. For all the rhetoric I hear from feminists about how men make make all kinds of assumptions and projections about women and their emotions, you can almost always count on the reverse to happen, a feminist telling a man what he thinks and feels.

Speaking of RI as entertainment, I really do need to attend to my real life, i.e. the needs of my partner and our families who are visiting for Thanksgiving.

I hope you all have a good Thanksgiving, even if I vehemently disagree with your positions on political and social issues!


That's not quite what I meant. You seemed to me to be making reasoned appeals to these "egregious ideas" when I find they are usually deployed disingenuously, and in an effort to shut down discussion rather than further it (I get the impression this itself is a symptom of frustration and an increasingly less successful tactic).

Which is not to say that other areas of feminism and gender politics aren't full of lively arguments.

What would the best messaging and audiences be to start changing the sort of police/institutional attitudes to males on the receiving end of domestic violence? They are indeed often in a difficult situation especially when low income, precarious housing, and mental health issues are involved. Probably, at least in many cases, begging Reddit feminists to see this side of the story isn't going to get the greatest results.

You mentioned frustration yourself, not necessarily emotional frustration it seems.

I would never call myself a feminist, especially given the strong criticism by feminists of men calling themselves feminists - why bother applying the term to myself, then?

We're going to have to agree to disagree on our Reddit experience. And perhaps on this topic in general. I don't think I'm going to convince you... and while I like to think of myself as open to other arguments, there's nothing yet in this thread or the other one on gender that I haven't heard before, considered, and ultimately rejected.
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Re: Masculinities of the far right

Postby slomo » Fri Nov 27, 2015 3:48 am


So what is this picture of Jack supposed to prove? That he's an evil white supremist? We already know his politics thanks to your screen dump. That he's scary looking? Honestly, if I didn't already know who Jack Donovan was, except for the quasi-demonic angle and lighting, he pretty much looks like my typical date in my 20s and 30s. Or maybe you've got some kind of secret man-crush on him, I dunno.
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Re: Masculinities of the far right

Postby American Dream » Fri Nov 27, 2015 9:28 am

Nothing of the sort, not sure why you assume the things you do. The photo and title were just part of a quick-and-easy link when I didn't have the time or energy for detailed formatting.

Do you think that Donovan and the Wolves are not somehow really, really bad news?
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Re: Masculinities of the far right

Postby General Patton » Fri Nov 27, 2015 11:06 am

American Dream » Fri Nov 27, 2015 8:28 am wrote:
Do you think that Donovan and the Wolves are not somehow really, really bad news?


Honestly the whole thing looks pretty soft. It looks closer to a motorcycle club (emphasis on club) than an open source insurgency. No one is planning on sinking migrant boats, disable critical infrastructure points, considering spreading a plague that makes you bleed from every orifice of your body, or start another ice age to cull the weak and unworthy. I'm not feeling an adequate level of aggression here. They seem to love runes, but if they're anything like other WN's I've talked too, they probably have little idea what they mean or how to focus their minds to make them effective. Similarly WN and NatSocs are using the black sun on practically everything now without the slightest idea of what it means. The black sun is becoming a fashion statement, which is something I couldn't imagine even a few years before now.



2/10 need to apply themselves.
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