VAMPIRES!!!!

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Postby AhabsOtherLeg » Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:23 am

compared2what? wrote:I love vampires! I've always loved vampires! I mean in film and print, not in life, metaphorically or otherwise. Mark Kermode's wrong, though. Vampire narratives are always about sex. Including the ones that not only aren't remotely about sex in any way, but are emphatically about death, or isolation, or love, or power, or powerlessness, or the exploitation of the usefully idiotic bourgeoisie by the aristocratic ruling class, or the inherently socially traumatic nature of going to high school in Southern California, or....As a matter of fact, even some of the ones that are about sex aren't really about sex. Like Carmilla, for example.


Wait, wait... you do talk fast. So, are they all about sex except the ones that are about sex? Am I reading you right? Or did you mean to say they are all, without exception, about sex?

I will also squeal "Buffy!" in girlish glee, despite being not a girl, or typically very gleeful.

I'll continue as if you had said they all are about sex, even though I'm not totally convinced of that yet - I definitely think 'I Am Legend', probably the first "scientific" vampire story, was actually about masturbation. Yes. Yes it was.

I'm sure quite a number of the early, and even recent, vampire tales are all about beating the censors. For a lesbian love story like Carmilla to have "come out" in 1872 is simply amazing. A revolutionary act! And he never woulda got away with it if it weren't for them pesky, and convenient, vampires.

Of course, Dracula as a whole just reeks of polymorphous perversity.

Then there's the original I Am Legend in 1954(!), about a man who's lost his wife, the only women he ever did or could love (and the whole world went with her - a big viral plague, but I think it's a metaphor for his personal desolation) and now he's holed up alone in a barricaded house with only memories to sustain him. But each night the vampires come, and, having intelligence, they try to lure him out with sex by flaunting their non-decayed bodies. And he is tempted. But remains faithful to the memory of his wife.

He never gives in to his need for physical intimacy (being bitten) by these other women (there are men lurking on the periphery ready to attack if he comes out - but the women get all the description) ... until in the day time, while they sleep, he can go out and relieve his frustration by blasting them from a safe distance with his "gun" - in their beds.
They are not aware of his presence at this time. He's still irreducibly alone

There's symbolism there. It's a shame all the good stuff was taken out for the film.

I suppose it wouldn't really have worked. "Will Smith Stars in the Most Metaphorically Masturbatory Epic Of The Year!"

It's about sexual guilt too, of course. I suppose that can just be taken as part and parcel of the sex.

Unless they're the originally pre-Christian, unromanticized, Slavic folklore-type narratives that were drawn upon by both Bram Stoker and the earlier, less influential vampire-story-writers of the romantic and/or gothic (and/ or other unnamed and less formal, counter-Enlightenment, return-of-the-repressed Western-aesthetic/cultural) movements in which the basic vampire mythos and ethos as we know it unto this very day were developed.


I like the Slavic ones, with their bloated appearance and red faces. They're like drunks. I disagree that they were entirely non-sexual, though - like I said, they come into people's beds and "lay upon them"... the most commonly used word was "pressing." And they were often returning dead spouses - sexual guilt about the continued physical longing for a dead partner, maybe, creating a "demon" to absolve the sufferer of blame.

In which case, who knows what the fuck they're about? Apart from people whose ancient pagan traditions and beliefs happened to have been fully assimilated by Christianity over the course of eight or nine centuries during which their cultural views of sex and death and so on were entirely uninfluenced by any of the hang-ups commonly attached to those things irrespective of religion by pretty much every member of all the Western societies that evolved primarily under the auspices of Roman Catholicism...


Now here's a thought. I'll have to cut this short, but just imagine the medieval vampire, Nosferatu-style, with his heavy black clothes, long white fingers, aloof and distant attitude, apparent superior knowledge of the supernatural, etc.... He's seen as a creeping, floating, haunting presence that knows all about your bad thoughts and bad deeds, and judges them. He is a literal "drain" on the community, pressing down on them, sucking the very life-force of the poor, demanding they sacrifice their very lives and souls for his sustenance...

He's a Catholic priest, isn't he? :idea:

I haven't thought this right through yet, but could the old vampire myths have sprung from veiled anti-clericalism - beating the censors again?

Not sure, but it's sumfing to fink abaht, innit?
Last edited by AhabsOtherLeg on Thu Nov 05, 2009 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Maddy » Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:03 pm

The Australian Yara-ma-yha-who is definitely not sexual.

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This creature resembles a little red man with a very big head and large mouth with no teeth. On the ends of its hands and feet are suckers. It lives in fig trees and does not hunt for food, but waits until an unsuspecting traveler rests under the tree, then catches the victim and drains their blood using the suckers on its hands and feet, making them weak. It later comes back and consumes the person, drinks some water, and then takes a nap. When the Yara-ma-yha-who awakens, it regurgitates the victim, leaving it "shorter" than before. The victim's skin also turns slightly more "red" than before.


On the other hand, the Chinese Chiang-shih is hypersexual.

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Chiang-shihs were nocturnal creatures and had difficulties crossing running water. It was said that they were particularly vicious and ripped the head or limbs off their victims. They were also said to have a strong sexual drive which led them to attack and rape women. After a period of growing stronger, chiang-shihs would gain the ability to fly, grow long white hair, and possibly change into wolves.


Similarly vampiric creatures are Germanic Alp, who are incubus types of creatures. Maras are the female version.

Its victims are often female, and it usually attacks during the nighttime, controlling dreams and creating horrible nightmares. An alp attack is called an Alpdruck, or often "Alpdrücken", which means "Elf Pressure". An Alpdruck is when an alp sits astride a sleeper's chest and becomes heavier until the crushing weight awakens the terrified (and breathless) dreamer. They awake terrified and unable to move under the alp's weight. This may have been an early explanation for sleep apnea and sleep paralysis, as well as night terrors. It may also include lucid dreams. Alps may also enter the body by becoming a fine mist and entering through the nostrils and mouth, where it can administer its nightmares from the inside, similar to a spirit possession. It also uses a long tongue for this same function, for it is suggested the alp "feeds" on dreams.


The Japanese have two vampire types. One is the actual creature, the Nukekubi, who is not a sexual creature - unless you like head.

By day, nukekubi appear to be normal human beings. By night, however, their heads and necks detach smoothly from their bodies and fly about independently in search of human prey. These heads attack by screaming (to increase their victims' fright). then closing in and biting.


The other is actually a tree spirit, the Jubokko.

Jubokko are sometimes said to suck the blood of humans and according to some tales they were born by growing near carnage places or battlefields where so much human blood was shed on the ground that it was sucked up in great quantities by the roots of certain trees.


Definitely not sexual.

Wiki has an incomplete list of vampiric folklore by region, which goes back to Mesopotamia.

Lilith, the original vampire, was a child murdering goddess connected to the Acacia tree. Her symbolism is the owl, and the ankh-key. Her children are the Lilitu.

... much like the Greek striges, would prey on young babies and their mothers at night, as well as males. Because Hebrew law absolutely forbade the eating of human flesh or the drinking of any type of blood, Lilith's blood drinking was described as exceptionally evil.


It wasn't until later times that she became a beautiful woman and sexualized, probably to "tame" her.

Similar to Lilith (who is a Judaic creation) is the Mesopotamian Lamashtu.

... a female demon, monster, malevolent goddess or demigoddess who menaced women during childbirth and, if possible, kidnapped children while they were breastfeeding. She would gnaw on their bones and suck their blood ...


Her Greek counterpart was the Lamia, who again didn't get sexualized until later.

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I think this sexualizing of these female goddesses and demons may be part of explanations of patriarchal takeover of varying female religions and belief. I also think that its possible that the entire thing may arise, not just as an explanation of varying unknowns (nightmares, etc.) or morally unacceptables (masturbation, sleep ejaculations), but more actual, "concrete" (as if spiritual could be concrete) spiritual things such as what the Gnostics refered to as Archons. But that's a whole other barrel of fish and I didn't bring my shotgun this morning. :wink:
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Postby AhabsOtherLeg » Thu Nov 05, 2009 3:33 pm

Mark Kermode's done a follow-up vid to the one in the OP. Mentions some interesting vamp films I'd forgotten about (in particular George Romero's "Martin", which is so much about sexuality that it almost obscures the vampirism).

See it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YHEw5njmIc

Maddy, I will have to read your post with some care before replying, but I love them vampies, literally all of which are new to me except Lilith and the Lamia. Wasn't Lilith supposed to have been Adam's first wife, before Eve, or am I thinking of something fictional here?

If she was, then your hypothesis about female mythological vampires being sexualised and demonised in order to badjacket the ancient Godesses makes perfect sense. The autonomous Goddess Lilith would've been, at the very least, Adam's equal, presumably - so she has to be re-painted as an evil force and a blood-drinker, and replaced by the submissive and decieving Eve, created from one of Adam's ribs.

Interesting. Now I go read da links.
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Postby Maddy » Thu Nov 05, 2009 3:46 pm

The old brain may be full of gas these days, but vampires have always been my love. I've probably studied them for... well since about sixth or seventh grade? So... well, let's see, I'm 44 now... so that's... math. >.< Someone smarter than me can figure that one out.

But yes, that's the same Lilith. She was a stolen Babylonian goddess, demonized, and finally mythologized. :?
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Postby sunny » Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:16 pm

Hotel catering to vampires on True Blood:

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Postby barracuda » Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:31 pm

One poorly understood aspect of the phenomenon is why vampires seem to sport such awesome hairdos.

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Postby Maddy » Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:49 pm

Tsk. You have to have some kind of bonus help if you're going to be a demonic sexual predator. God knows, the human variety rarely have that kind of help at all. :roll: It comes with the whole "demonic" aspect. If demons weren't sexy, no one could be seduced... even if they're child demons. Because we all know only the beautiful are seductive.

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[click me!]

Which brings us to Interview with the Vampire and its blatant homoerotica and paedophilia. A really good mix of "all homosexuals are pedophiles" and "all men are closet homosexuals" and "all children are really small adults and really do want you sexually".

I worry about Anne Rice. :?
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Postby AhabsOtherLeg » Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:23 am

The guy in Ian Eye's video has notable hair as well - and what a terrible video it is. I thought they were going to start doing the Monster Mash, but it was somehow worse than that. "You don't know anything about me!" "I know you like to have your ankles licked..." "Maybe we could go back to my place." Jesus. That must've been vampiric hypnosis at work.

How come Australia gets all the friendliest monsters? We get vampires that tear our throats out, the Chinese get vampires that rip them to pieces for sexual pleasure, and Australia gets vampires that swallow you, take a nap, and then let you go with slightly redder skin... The Loch Ness Monster has an eery, unnatural air about it (as does the Loch itself, at times) - but they get the Bunyip... a watery hippo-thing that never seems to hurt anybody.

Then there's the giant cod Joe told me about. A giant COD!

It's not fair.

Mind you, their real animals and insects are scary enough. Maybe they don't need mythological ones.

Maddy, Interview With A Vampire definitely had all those elements to it, and with the added appearance of that real-life psychic vampire Mr. Tom Cruise. He sucked the life right out of Katie Holmes. He maybe did the same to Kirsten Dunst, 'cos she's hardly made a good film since.

Homosexual male vampires seem to be surprisingly rare... if we don;t count the Cruiser.

I often get Anne Rice and Poppy Z. Brite mixed up, but frankly, both of them need their heads examined. Well, not really, everything's acceptable in fiction I suppose - otherwise Burroughs should've never been allowed to walk the streets - but I agree... there are some worrying currents in her work.
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Postby Maddy » Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:20 pm

Poppy had a bit of gratuitous gore, in the birthing scene and all, but at least she was up front about her homosexuality. And she never mixed her adults with little children. I have to give her much cudos for that. And her kids weren't kids, they were all teenagers, and it was a lovely book about teenage "coming out", if you think about it, though she's not as poetic a writer as Anne Rice. Anne Rice has some kind of ... undercurrent of "I know this isn't acceptable but I'm going to let my subconscious desires out in this book, and keep it veiled because I'm embarrassed about it." ... or something equally perverted or dark feeling. Then she quit writing them at all because her guilt finally got to her, and she found Jesus. Again. Then she mangled that book all to hell.

And Tom Cruise is too much of an android to really be a vampire, but every single badly acted movie he's in surely shows his innate pathological narcissism, don't they? He's so one-dimensional. :roll:
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Postby sunny » Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:19 pm

AhabsOtherLeg wrote:Homosexual male vampires seem to be surprisingly rare... if we don;t count the Cruiser


Ahab, True Blood has gay vampires. Quite a few of them actually, good ones and bad ones. Season 3 we get to meet the gay Vampire King of Mississippi and his court of gorgeous boytoys. :wink:
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Postby Maddy » Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:55 pm

Pls pass the ketsup? >.>
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Postby sunny » Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:22 pm

Yeah, it's junk food on the surface, a fat juicy hotdog, but there's real meat in the bun. :wink:
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Postby IanEye » Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:03 pm

AhabsOtherLeg wrote:The guy in Ian Eye's video has notable hair as well - and what a terrible video it is.


That's George Hamilton, friend of Vampiress Imelda Marcos. He also portrayed Evel Knievel, another person who knew something about rising from the dead.
There is actually one funny scene from that movie where Richard Benjamin, play a rather clueless vampire hunter, pulls out a silver star of David, expecting Dracula to recoil in horror.

Funny thing is, a silver star of David could fuck up a vampire in the 'True Blood' world.
Not because of any religious significance, but because silver in 'True Blood' is toxic to vampires.
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Postby Alaya » Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:57 am

compared2what? wrote:Also, there's nothing you can do to make me untrue to my guy. And Nosferatu is absolutely right up there on the list of my five most favorite movies that he did with Werner Herzog.

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Such a cutie.

The opening credits of that move are actually kind of a little too reminiscent of the then-undiscovered vampire in barracuda's post for comfort. Which are also

WARNING: pretty frightening in a potentially triggering way just as they stand, here at this link


Herzog's is also my favorite vampire movie. I want to see it again.

Never would have suspected you to be a Kinsky fan, although Aguirre turned me into one myself.
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Postby compared2what? » Sat Nov 07, 2009 7:00 am

Maddy wrote:]Definitely not sexual.

Wiki has an incomplete list of vampiric folklore by region, which goes back to Mesopotamia.


I guess I should have stipulated that I meant vampires in the Polidori/Stoker tradition. :oops:

Alaya wrote:Never would have suspected you to be a Kinsky fan, although Aguirre turned me into one myself.


I worship Klaus Kinski, practically. I mean as an artist. Although he was also technically a superfox. Because although as

AhabsOtherLeg wrote:Klaus Kinski was scarier in real life than in any of his films as well, though he's great in Nosferatu.


and with some justification, while I myself don't find him scary in his real life or in his films, I always find him frightening.

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In both. Pretty much because I'm actually not so sure that there was really a very bright-line distinction between the two, from Mr. Kinski's perspective. I've always gotten the impression that it was more like he just went around having one moment of pure lucid real human experience at its most extreme after another all the time at absolute and total random, unless he'd agreed to be in a movie during one of them. In which case he occasionally consented to exercise his mindblowing ability to have them in a superbly controlled and coherent order while transiently assuming a fully realized alternate identity and being filmed at the same time. Which is just horrifying to behold, even when it's horrifyingly beautiful. I mean, look at him. He's terrifying, the poor soul. There's one fleeting second during his performance in Woyzeck in particular that I find so frightening, it feels more like actually being Klaus Kinski and living in hell than like watching an actor play a part in a movie. Although my heart really belongs to Fitzcarraldo, I'll admit it, I'm sappy.

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And....I just totally failed to say what I meant. But whatever. Whether in one way, or another, or all of them, Mr. Kinski does just seem never to have really gotten the concept of boundaries between anything and anything else down very well. Look at his role choices, for example. Because he obviously didn't. WRT which, he actually has at least one other vampire movie in his ouevre, as Renfield. I've never seen it. But based on the trailer, I now really, really want to. It looks like 99 percent wax museum, one percent unadulterated Klaus Kinski, as usual. Except with really, really bad lighting. He was in a million of 'em. I just love him for that. For instance.
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