Football World Cup

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Re: Football World Cup

Postby Stephen Morgan » Thu Jun 17, 2010 1:15 pm

stefano wrote:Fuck Luis Suarez. Diving, bleating, whining little shit. We were outclassed, for sure, but could have stayed in it until the penalty... I think that's it for us.


I think you'll beat the French. I think the Uruguayans will beat Mexico. I think France will beat Mexico. We'll see.

JackRiddler wrote:Thing is, it's always the same damn story. I could have told you 12 years or 20 years ago, before some of the current players were even born, that the 2010 final will feature two teams out of Brazil, Germany, Argentina and Italy.


Might do. Unpredictable, this football lark. No-one would have predicted a Porto-Monaco ECL final a few years back. Or Portsmouth getting to the Cup final.

Incidentally eleven teams have reached the final of the world cup. Another twelve have been in the third place match.

I told you Uruguay looked good. No-one listen to poor Zathrus. The Spanish looked bad. Playing that thrice damned 433/451 formation. That scuppered the Dutch too. Of course the Dutch still won, unlike the Spaniards. Must do better, Spaniards. Stop all that tippy tappy bullshit and realise you haven't got a god given right to get past the group stage. Will have to actually play your way out. The Greeks done good. Didn't know they could do that any more. So that's eight goals in the last two matches, then.
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Re: Football World Cup

Postby JackRiddler » Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:07 pm

Stephen Morgan wrote:Might do. Unpredictable, this football lark.


Not so much the Mondiale. I want to be surprised though. Then again I like Argentina!

The Greeks done good. Didn't know they could do that any more.


Red card helped. Deserved. Now all they need is a draw against Argentina and Nigeria over Korea. Might as well dream it for a few days!
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Re: Football World Cup

Postby vanlose kid » Fri Jun 18, 2010 12:36 pm

Stephen Morgan wrote:...

Might do. Unpredictable, this football lark. No-one would have predicted a Porto-Monaco ECL final a few years back. Or Portsmouth getting to the Cup final.

... the Spaniards. Must do better, Spaniards. Stop all that tippy tappy bullshit and realise you haven't got a god given right to get past the group stage. Will have to actually play your way out. The Greeks done good. Didn't know they could do that any more. So that's eight goals in the last two matches, then.


A piece on the Spain Switzerland game by one of the best futbol writers (and blogs) around. Thought I'd share.

*

As Yet Within That House
Brian Phillips | Run of Play

One of the hard things about forming an outlook on the World Cup is that when an event gets this much attention, the flow of commentary is so fast and broad that every possible angle is exhausted and trivial positions develop a kind of insubstantial politics. Conventional wisdom starts to seem like an ideology, and if you’re not careful, your own feelings about what happens will be dictated by where you want to stand in relation to that ideology rather than by what you actually think. There’s a pundit position, a cognoscenti backlash, an uber-cognoscenti counter-backlash, and so on till after midnight. Your heart and the stadium get farther and farther apart.

Case in point: two opinions that put you on roughly the same line of anti-pundit knowingness would be “the first round of games was actually great” and “Switzerland weren’t that exciting yesterday; Spain were just terrible.” Maybe you really feel those things, or have numbers to back them up. But in most cases, I’d guess that the attraction of these stances has a lot to do with the fact that they put some space between you and the thousand-mile pandemonium of cliches blasting out of the TV studios and the pages of your favorite newspaper. It’s not only that they make you sound like you know what you’re talking about, although there’s no discounting the lure of savvy disaffectedness. They also just turn down the volume.

You can’t live like that, though, or all you’re ever doing is retreating. It’s a losing battle, but I’m trying to stay as close to the stadium as I can from eight thousand miles, twelve open Firefox tabs, and an awareness of the existence of Alan Shearer away. And from where I’m sitting, the first games were pretty dire. And Switzerland, to whatever extent this matters, saved the tournament between last night and the hat trick Messi gave Higuain this morning.

Watching these games has gotten me thinking about what we’re actually looking for when we turn on a soccer match. A 0-0 draw can be a beautiful apocalypse, but only if conditions are right. We’re accustomed to associating goals with pleasure because, honestly, it’s never boring to watch somebody score, and ten straight shatteringly brilliant 0-0 draws would leave you weeping at the futility no matter how much you appreciated every last display of well-tooled organization. This is a game of anticipation and release, and it has to come down to more than watching sound tactics chalk each other out, or else it’s just calculators, and “interesting.” I’m probably too hopped up on the mysticism of this stuff for my own good, but I want elevation; the best route to that is probably what’s usually called “good football,” but I’ll take players scrambling to overcome their own shortcomings or improvising on a dime in a heartbeat over a game of exact adjustments and no drama. I hate the “stats have no place in this game because it’s all about heart” line as much as anyone, but there we are.

In this tournament, we’ve been treated to hourly updates on what makes soccer wrong for the American psyche—our games make sense, yours don’t, or our games are virtuous, yours mean giving up on life and hating Israel—so this is weary ground, and fatally simplistic, probably. But it occurs to me that the thrills in American sports are almost always retrospective: something amazing happens, you process it, and then you experience disbelief and pleasure over the fact that it really took place. Or anyway, there are enough retrospective, this-really-happened thrills that the prospective thrills—a 50-yard-pass sailing toward a wide receiver—are essentially invalidated if they don’t produce a result. There are very few American highlight films of brilliant moves that didn’t completely succeed.

In soccer (this is obvious, but whatever) the tension of the game is a rise-and-fall punctuated by a lot of thrills in prospect. You calm down a little when the ball is around the center line, sit forward a little whenever it’s in the area, gasp whenever somebody takes a shot. If it was a good shot, it stays exciting, even if it doesn’t lead to a goal. Actual goals then become massive thrills-in-retrospect, but the biggest sign that YouTube really isn’t destroying our ability to watch soccer is that highlight videos still regularly include missed shots, runs that end with the ball being lost, and so on. How thrilling thrills-in-prospect are is a matter of feel, as much as anything; there might be ways to quantify it, but I’m not convinced that they would comprehend as many variables as our intuition deals with all the time. Again, that’s not to downplay the importance of understanding the routes and numbers, but on some level, you have to trust electricity and your own response.

The first round of games in the World Cup didn’t produce a lot of goals: fewer than ever, empirically. But they also didn’t produce a lot of terror or fire. With exceptions—Germany’s silk-spinning, Argentina’s weird, wayward probing—they largely just slid past. There were fewer chances, but there was also a scarcity of moments where the ball got warmer and the tension kept turning the screw. There weren’t a lot of thrills-in-prospect. Everything was just…interesting.

And that’s why, for me, Spain-Switzerland tore open the crust of the earth. If you’ve followed this site for any length of time, you know that as much as I venerate Barcelona and midfield playmakers and balls played to feet, I have a special place in my brain for inspired last-ditch defense. I enjoyed France-Scotland, as I might have mentioned. It’s true that neither team looked sensational yesterday, and Xavi was off, and Torres was tired, and Iniesta couldn’t hit a charging elephant, and the entire Switzerland team was scattered and rattled during the entire second half. But that was all secondary—what mattered at the time was that Spain were too good for Switzerland, kept the game pretty steadily at a high hum of thrill-in-prospect, and still went down to a Swiss team that caught a current of inspiration and won the war against its own mistakes.

It wasn’t “good football” from Spain (it was pretty close), but it was some kind of greatness from Switzerland, who had no business doing what they did and did it anyway. Fernandes’s goal was not a thing of beauty; it was a piece of pure chaos that seemed to defy the will of the universe and then, in the next instant, to fulfill it. The exhausted Swiss defenders closing down the ball again and again in the second half, the crazed blundering knockabout counters with Derdiyok, Spain’s patience, the sense that there was always too much time for them not to score, every shot Benaglio barely saved—it was real drama, and whether it means anything or not, whether anyone will even remember it after Argentina and Uruguay and Greece, much less the knockout rounds, it felt like salvation when it happened. If you are one month old, Switzerland is the most awesome team of your lifetime. Let’s hope more of this madness shines through once this World Cup turns on its lights.

[ http://www.runofplay.com/2010/06/17/as- ... hat-house/ ]

*

edit: typos
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Re: Football World Cup

Postby JackRiddler » Fri Jun 18, 2010 1:33 pm

But it occurs to me that the thrills in American sports are almost always retrospective: something amazing happens, you process it, and then you experience disbelief and pleasure over the fact that it really took place. Or anyway, there are enough retrospective, this-really-happened thrills that the prospective thrills—a 50-yard-pass sailing toward a wide receiver—are essentially invalidated if they don’t produce a result. There are very few American highlight films of brilliant moves that didn’t completely succeed.

In soccer (this is obvious, but whatever) the tension of the game is a rise-and-fall punctuated by a lot of thrills in prospect. You calm down a little when the ball is around the center line, sit forward a little whenever it’s in the area, gasp whenever somebody takes a shot. If it was a good shot, it stays exciting, even if it doesn’t lead to a goal. Actual goals then become massive thrills-in-retrospect, but the biggest sign that YouTube really isn’t destroying our ability to watch soccer is that highlight videos still regularly include missed shots, runs that end with the ball being lost, and so on. How thrilling thrills-in-prospect are is a matter of feel, as much as anything; there might be ways to quantify it, but I’m not convinced that they would comprehend as many variables as our intuition deals with all the time. Again, that’s not to downplay the importance of understanding the routes and numbers, but on some level, you have to trust electricity and your own response.


That is insightful writing. I'm jealous.
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Re: Football World Cup

Postby annie aronburg » Fri Jun 18, 2010 4:41 pm

I don't really like sports or teams or large groups of people massed in circles screaming in unison but these big events are interesting synchromystically, at least until something happens to wreck the pattern.

Mexico beats Franc€
Serbia beats G€rmany
Switzerland beats €spaña
Korea beats Gr€€c€
Japan beats N€th€rlands

Italy and Portugal tied their games.

I'm not paying super-close attention so I ask:
Is Slovenia the only member of the EU that isn't flailing this World Cup? Sweden?
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Re: Football World Cup

Postby Stephen Morgan » Fri Jun 18, 2010 4:49 pm

England very poor. Algeria clearly the better side for the entire match. Rooney gave the ball away every time he got it. Lampard, when not completely anonymous, reprised his usual role of wasting possession with hopelessly long range shots. Unusually Gerrard repeatedly let opposition players take the ball off him then failed to track back. Was playing on the left, apparently. Barry had a bit to do in his own box but failed to dominate play or gain possession in midfield. Set pieces uniformly woeful. Lennon did quite well, Heskey had a good game without a single chance to mess up. Even so he was mostly conspicuous by his absence, far too many goal kicks and long balls being headed away by Halliche, or whatever his name was, without any opposition. Full backs did alright. Johnson made a few pretty major errors but managed to stop any damage being done. The two centre-halves spent the entire match very deep, no doubt to stop the exploitation of their extreme lack of pace. Best thing about the match from an England view point is that Carragher is now banned for the last match. Their sitting so deep meant the whole team was more spread out front to back, much more difficult to do the one-twos, short passing and all that stuff needed to maintain possession or create any chances. Also much harder to put pressure on the ball. Single most important factor in England's diabolical performance. Needed the defence to push up and compress play, wouldn't allow so much safe possession for the Algerians, would've meant more available passes for the England players. Worst performance clearly Capello. Eventually made a substitution, was SWP for Lennon, like for like. Or like for slightly better like, didn't achieve anything. Defoe for Heskey removed, along with the removal of Lennon, the only potent attacking force in the game. Defoe was alright, but prefers playing with a big man, should've been Rooney that went off. Eventually brought Crouch on and shoved Rooney on the left, not a sensible plan of action. Didn't work. Ultimately the only solution to a deep lying defence is to move it up, meaning it needs more pace, or the pack the midfield, meaning abandoning 4-4-2.

annie: Japan didn't beat the Netherlands, Holland haven't played Japan yet. They beat Denmark in their first match. Sweden aren't in the World Cup this time, although their former manager is running Nigeria. Slovenia aren't in the EU. I think. Greece beat Nigeria, too. Italy and Portugal's results weren't bad. Cote d'Ivoire and Paraguay are decent teams.
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Re: Football World Cup

Postby stefano » Fri Jun 18, 2010 6:09 pm

Just got back from Green Point - good vibe, not a great game. England fans all over the place. I'm glad for Algeria but would have been happier had they scored, they just didn't look like they believed they could... and their players aren't used to having to produce the top-class co-operation that they would have needed to beat James. Great ball control though. Amazing how much slower football actually is compared to what it looks like on TV.

Nice article, vanlose kid, but I still don't agree with this "too many draws!" argument. It's a tournament, someone will win. If the first round is tense so much the better.

Brian Philips wrote:In soccer (this is obvious, but whatever) the tension of the game is a rise-and-fall punctuated by a lot of thrills in prospect. You calm down a little when the ball is around the center line, sit forward a little whenever it’s in the area, gasp whenever somebody takes a shot. If it was a good shot, it stays exciting, even if it doesn’t lead to a goal.
I don't really get what he's saying - like 'some draws can be mesmerising' but then he's also saying 'I wish there'd been more results'?

I'm more a rugby fan than a football fan because the tension in rugby is even more gradual than in football: usually before a try you have five to ten minutes of sustained, mistake-free attacking. And when you get that kind of thing in football, like a few times in Brazil's game, it really is the beautiful game.
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Re: Football World Cup

Postby jingofever » Fri Jun 18, 2010 7:14 pm

annie aronburg wrote:Is Slovenia the only member of the EU that isn't flailing this World Cup? Sweden?

Slovenia lost to the United States today. Sweden isn't playing in the World Cup. And the Netherlands haven't lost to Japan, at least not yet, they play tomorrow. The Netherlands beat Denmark, but they're EU.
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Re: Football World Cup

Postby vanlose kid » Sat Jun 19, 2010 2:58 am

stefano wrote:... I don't really get what he's saying - like 'some draws can be mesmerising' but then he's also saying 'I wish there'd been more results'?...


Well, some draws can really be a test of teams, of nearlies and almosts and finger-tip-saves around the posts, and some can just die tactically in midfield. And the idea of 10 of the latter in a row can be excruciating, so the wish for more results.

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Re: Football World Cup

Postby MinM » Sat Jun 19, 2010 12:51 pm

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Re: Football World Cup

Postby JackRiddler » Sun Jun 20, 2010 2:28 pm

Is it safe to say that France is doomed?
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Re: Football World Cup

Postby AhabsOtherLeg » Sun Jun 20, 2010 10:16 pm

stefano wrote:
AhabsOtherLeg wrote:meself and my family were hugely impressed by the show SA has put on for this event. It looked fantastic

Yeah, it did hey, I'm very thrilled. It'll do the country good overall, even though I get a bit itchy at this kind of flag-waving nationalism especially in light of some indications that xenophobic violence could flare up right after the event. But then I tell myself that if there are times not to be a cynical prick, this is one of them.


Well, at the risk of being a cynical prick too, I have wondered about the possible consequences for the visiting fans of whichever team happens to put SA out of the competition. It could be any team at this stage, and it's going to happen sooner rather than later, unfortunately. Whoever beats SA should probably start making a concerted effort to exchange shirts with their erstwhile worst enemies. :lol:
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Re: Football World Cup

Postby AhabsOtherLeg » Sun Jun 20, 2010 10:17 pm

Stephen Morgan wrote:If you're mad enough to listen to me you'd put money on Uruguay and the Ivory Coast.


'Tis done. I wish we'd both been around in the 60s though, and you'd told me to put a fiver into the Ivory Coast back then. I coulda been a Rockefeller by now. We both coulda been.

Eh... but with all the winnings going to charity, of course. Can't forget that bit of the equation. Yet.

England were absolutely miserable against Algeria. Not sure why. They weren't bad bad, technically, but they were visibly miserable. The phone-ins here are suggesting that Capello's been putting Mogadon in their Smoothies as part of the training or something - and, of course, it will be Capello who'll get crucified if they crash out, regardless of who's fault it turns out to be. His card is marked.

But it must be hard, as a team, to have your own fans boo you off the park. I don't understand a fanbase who would do that. Criticism is fine, and necessary at this point, but it seems churlish to pay a fortune to follow your team as they traverse the globe just so that you can turn nasty on them in the full view of the world after they perform less than spectacularly a few times. The sudden vocal denigration of the team also becomes a (perhaps comforting) self-fulfilling prophecy.

They'll fail if their fans desire it, and some of them do, for some reason.
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Re: Football World Cup

Postby AhabsOtherLeg » Sun Jun 20, 2010 10:45 pm

JackRiddler wrote:Is it safe to say that France is doomed?


Well, in this latest game, with the Ancien Regime so spectacularly wrongfooted by the Montagnards newest striker, Robespierre, who came up hard on the left, ruthlessly bypassing and outpassing (and outclassing) Valois and Bourbon on the right, I would say: aye.

France is doomed. You can't have a strong defence if the manager keeps telling all the players to stick exclusively to one wing, and punishing them if they stray into the other. I accuse Sarkozy of weakening his team and his nation in this way.

Sorry for bringing politics into the World Cup, but it gets kind of dull otherwise, for me. Bunch of men kicking a ball around. Same things, eh?
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Re: Football World Cup

Postby vanlose kid » Mon Jun 21, 2010 12:40 am

Classic Soviet animation: How The Cossacks Played Football.



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