Moderators: Elvis, DrVolin, Jeff
Truth4Youth wrote:I have no problem with Jews. I've called into to Americna Free Press writer Michael Collins Piper's show a number of times and have disagreed with him on subjects like his negative views of the Talmud and his views on the Holocaust. It's sad that I have to state that before pointing out that I'm not particularly pro-Israel, I guess it just goes to show how the "anti-fascist" side of parapolitical research is screwed up. The "anti-fascists" are just like the progressives- comforted by their "intellectually superiority" while they laugh at how screwed up the world is and how it can't get any worse, blah, lblah, blah. And of course they forget to look for solutions!
And if we're going to say how we're sick of the Jew bashing on this board I have to say I'm sick of the Libertarian bashing on this board. Keep killing off any chance of the old right and new left uniting guys, you're doing a fantastic job!
Unfortunately, talk that started with "Israel does bad things" (a point that I DO concede) often slides down the slippery slope into talk of the Zionist Occupied Government.
This quickly degenerates into quotes from the Protocols and ends with talk of Holocaust revisionism and I leave when they make jokes like "I say 6 million more".
Look what evil, evil Israel is doing now !!!!!!
John E. Nemo wrote:One of the BIG problems that I have with the Libertarians is that I know too many of them.
I've tried to put aside my idealogical differences with right wingers and focus on our shared enemies, the NWO.
Unfortunately, talk that started with "Israel does bad things" (a point that I DO concede) often slides down the slippery slope into talk of the Zionist Occupied Government.
This quickly degenerates into quotes from the Protocols and ends with talk of Holocaust revisionism and I leave when they make jokes like "I say 6 million more".
I don't think that all Libertarians are like this, but I do feel that you just can't trust anything that's All White and On The Right.
John E. Nemo wrote:I also think Kultie's right.
I think the extremists on both sides of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict deserve each other.
I had a very close friend who was from the Middle East.
In our talks, I agreed that Israel did some horrible things, but she would never concede that the Palestinian bombers are also doing horrible things.
Our friendship ended when she said that she wanted to go to Israel and become a "martyr", i.e. blow up a bus filled with innocent women and children.
Her entire family encouraged her to do this, as well.
I sincerely hope that she changed her mind.
2. The Palestinians are quite justified in "resisting," as long as it is doing so against legitimate military targets. Pizza parlours, restaurants, school busses, kindergartens, whole towns are NOT military targets. Military targets would be places where the active military are found; bases, checkpoints, convoys, etc. For the record, I do not support any Israeli policy which deliberately targets innocent civilians (ie civilians engaged in their daily business.) I do support Israel's right to secure the safety of her citizens.
3. I support Israel's right to exist and zionism which supports that part. I do not support land grabs and have SAID so before on this forum. I believe that given the lack of treaties and hence borders, that the issue of who gets what is moot until that happens. I believe that much of the demonization that goes on around that issue ignores that simple fact for precisely that reason; demonization of Israel.
4. I support a two state solution obtained via negotiation of two viable peace partners. The wishes of others do not matter in that regard except as it promotes the interests and rights of both sides.
As far as logic is concerned, when I hear the word issued from you I glaze over since all I have seen from you is, as Jeff has labeled it, agitprop. You have nothing to offer beyond continued strife, violence and lies.
chlamor wrote:This is clearly the language of the oppressor.
The comment about Israel having a right to exist ultimately is hollow. It holds no meaning. If anyone disagrees please give a detailed response. It's a ludicrous as thinking "America has a right to exist" or "Venezuela has a right to exist" etc. It's propaganda dutifully saying nothing in the interests of power.
This is clearly the language of the oppressor.
theeKultleeder wrote:States have no more "right to exist" than corporations do. They are fabricated entities having no existence in reality. They are fictions.
I am not a flag, I am not a loyalty oath, I am not a boundary, I am not a gun.
People have a "right to exist." They have a right to live on the planet Earth; they have a right to breathe and eat where they are born; they have a right to associate with other people.
And there is the complication.
Some of you think it's crazy to come in here blazing with metaphysics and philosophy, but the fact is, as long as a "State" exists in the minds of people, it will exist. Other types of organization is possible, but first we have to hold them in our minds and let those ideals direct our behavior.
...
Be a living human, feel the reality of life, of pain and pleasure, of freedom and bondage (even to ideas) and help to liberate both self and other.
It can't happen unless both are included!
11. The New Idol
SOMEWHERE there are still peoples and herds, but not with us, my brethren: here there are states.
A state? What is that? Well! open now your ears unto me, for now will I say unto you my word concerning the death of peoples.
A state, is called the coldest of all cold monsters. Coldly lieth it also; and this lie creepeth from its mouth: "I, the state, am the people."
It is a lie! Creators were they who created peoples, and hung a faith and a love over them: thus they served life.
Destroyers, are they who lay snares for many, and call it the state: they hang a sword and a hundred cravings over them.
Where there is still a people, there the state is not understood, but hated as the evil eye, and as sin against laws and customs.
This sign I give unto you: every people speaketh its language of good and evil: this its neighbor understandeth not. Its language hath it devised for itself in laws and customs.
But the state lieth in all languages of good and evil; and whatever it saith it lieth; and whatever it hath it hath stolen.
False is everything in it; with stolen teeth it biteth, the biting one. False are even its bowels.
Confusion of language of good and evil; this sign I give unto you as the sign of the state. Verily, the will to death, indicateth this sign! Verily, it beckoneth unto the preachers of death!
Many too many are born: for the superfluous ones was the state devised!
See just how it enticeth them to it, the many-too-many! How it swalloweth and cheweth and recheweth them!
"On earth there is nothing greater than I: it is I who am the regulating finger of God."—thus roareth the monster. And not only the long-eared and short-sighted fall upon their knees!
Ah! even in your ears, ye great souls, it whispereth its gloomy lies! Ah! it findeth out the rich hearts which willingly lavish themselves!
Yea, it findeth you out too, ye conquerors of the old God! Weary ye became of the conflict, and now your weariness serveth the new idol!
Heroes and honorable ones, it would fain set up around it, the new idol! Gladly it basketh in the sunshine of good consciences,—the cold monster!
Everything will it give you, if ye worship it, the new idol: thus it purchaseth the luster of your virtue, and the glance of your proud eyes.
It seeketh to allure by means of you, the many-too-many! Yea, a hellish artifice hath here been devised, a death-horse jingling with the trappings of divine honors!
Yea, a dying for many hath here been devised, which glorifieth itself as life: verily, a hearty service unto all preachers of death!
The state, I call it, where all are poison-drinkers, the good and the bad: the state, where all lose themselves, the good and the bad: the state, where the slow suicide of all—is called "life."
Just see these superfluous ones! They steal the works of the inventors and the treasures of the wise. Culture, they call their theft—and everything becometh sickness and trouble unto them!
Just see these superfluous ones! Sick are they always; they vomit their bile and call it a newspaper. They devour one another, and cannot even digest themselves.
Just see these superfluous ones! Wealth they acquire and become poorer thereby. Power they seek for, and above all, the lever of power, much money—these impotent ones!
See them clamber, these nimble apes! They clamber over one another, and thus scuffle into the mud and the abyss.
Towards the throne they all strive: it is their madness—as if happiness sat on the throne! Ofttimes sitteth filth on the throne.—and ofttimes also the throne on filth.
Madmen they all seem to me, and clambering apes, and too eager. Badly smelleth their idol to me, the cold monster: badly they all smell to me, these idolaters.
My brethren, will ye suffocate in the fumes of their maws and appetites! Better break the windows and jump into the open air!
Do go out of the way of the bad odor! Withdraw from the idolatry of the superfluous!
Do go out of the way of the bad odor! Withdraw from the steam of these human sacrifices!
Open still remaineth the earth for great souls. Empty are still many sites for lone ones and twain ones, around which floateth the odor of tranquil seas.
Open still remaineth a free life for great souls. Verily, he who possesseth little is so much the less possessed: blessed be moderate poverty!
There, where the state ceaseth- there only commenceth the man who is not superfluous: there commenceth the song of the necessary ones, the single and irreplaceable melody.
There, where the state ceaseth—pray look thither, my brethren! Do ye not see it, the rainbow and the bridges of the Superman?—
Thus spake Zarathustra.
theeKultleeder wrote:chlamor wrote:This is clearly the language of the oppressor.
The comment about Israel having a right to exist ultimately is hollow. It holds no meaning. If anyone disagrees please give a detailed response. It's a ludicrous as thinking "America has a right to exist" or "Venezuela has a right to exist" etc. It's propaganda dutifully saying nothing in the interests of power.
States have no more "right to exist" than corporations do. They are fabricated entities having no existence in reality. They are fictions.
I am not a flag, I am not a loyalty oath, I am not a boundary, I am not a gun.
People have a "right to exist." They have a right to live on the planet Earth; they have a right to breathe and eat where they are born; they have a right to associate with other people.
And there is the complication.
Some of you think it's crazy to come in here blazing with metaphysics and philosophy, but the fact is, as long as a "State" exists in the minds of people, it will exist. Other types of organization is possible, but first we have to hold them in our minds and let those ideals direct our behavior.
Chlamor, the phrase "language of the oppressor" only makes sense to those who already agree with you. To others, it is obtuse inflammatory language. But I happen to agree with you, so you are correct here
The "language of delusion" maybe? The "tyranny of the taken-for-granted" perhaps?
"Beliefs pre-condition the observation of reality" maybe?
You only believe what your momma tole you? Let's be careful in the jungle of ideology and propaganda.
Be a living human, feel the reality of life, of pain and pleasure, of freedom and bondage (even to ideas) and help to liberate both self and other.
It can't happen unless both are included!
Doodad wrote:
Unfortunately, you are not King of the World so states continue to exist until everybody comes around to YOUR new world order. Right now, you have your work cut out for you.
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