History of the Orgonite/Cloudbuster Movement

[f.n.disinfo.agent]

wow, i can't believe i actually slogged through this entire thread.

I can't really add much to the...debate?...here other than to say i once (about 5 years ago) experimented with some resin pyramids and homemade orgone wands. simple experiments set up to "clean" or "energize" water with the orgone thingamabobs. As I have a strong affinity for ideas about ki, prana, qi, odinic force, etc, I found the ideas about orgone pretty cool. I had come across someone claiming that orgone could 'clean' water and so I figured that seemed like an easy enough hypothesis to test.

I'm proud to say the experments were a success!

My hypothesis: "concentrating orgone 'waves' on regular tap water would 'clean' or 'energize' the water, resulting in tap water which would (1) pass a chemical analysis showing the 'enegrized' water contained less pollutants/ chemicals/elements than 'non-energized water and/or (2) taste sweeter than 'non-energized' water." My hypothesis failed on both accounts. Thus, as my hypothesis was tested and gave a result on both accounts, I can say my experiment was a success.

I used basic tap water, chemical analysis strips found at any local drugstore, my own subjective sense of taste, and my aforementioned orgone 'devices.' There were no noticible differences between the control or either of the 'energized' samples.

Possible problems with the experiment: I used faulty devices, I didn't adequately know how to use the devices,i was incorrect reading the results, my tap water is strangely resistant to 'orgone cleansing,' acts of god, experiment was too small, not enough repeitions of the process.

Based upon the experiment and further post-experiment research into the subject, I decided that the whole orgone field was an incredible time-sink, not the least of which because it likes to pretend having scientific credibility without the due scientific process (like many, many new age cons).

This isn't to say from my own, obviously limited, experiement and research that orgone doesn't exist or is just bs, just that I don't have time or impetus to wade through the muck of the orgone movement to find some truth.

My own two cents, for those of you who are into the orgone stuff, start a simple peer-reviewed journal (not at all hard, costly, or time-consuming due to computers and the internet) so that 'unbelievers' can see some real results. Your arguments would quickly shift from "this shit doesn't exist" to "wow, thats interesting, why does that happen?"

And if this is a world-changing discovery that can completely destroy the evil black-helicopter ninja-killer overlords, then I have to second masonic plot's repeated inquiries: why aren't you starting some sort of mass movement with people in every city giving out free devices, getting all the loans you can get to fund a revolution, selling everything you own and jsut out and out destroying the fuckers? I honestly don't get it.

[orz]

My own two cents, for those of you who are into the orgone stuff, start a simple peer-reviewed journal (not at all hard, costly, or time-consuming due to computers and the internet) so that 'unbelievers' can see some real results. Your arguments would quickly shift from "this shit doesn't exist" to "wow, thats interesting, why does that happen?"

I second that, great idea.

[dragon]

At this point in the historical narrative, MaryK wanted to discuss agnihotra and the way it is used by those in the orgonite/cloudbuster movement. I guess the best way to start is by posting the following form letter I composed to send out to people who had questions. Read this, and the narrative continues after that.

Dragon



What follows is an informational letter I composed to send to people to get them acquainted with the way we work with ash and mud balls. The ash is from the agnihotra ceremony fire. Please consider what I have written here and then contact me.

Thanks!

Dragon
>>>>>
If you do a search on that word, you'll find a lot of references to it on the 'net. That'll give you the history of the conventional applications of the practice. It goes back to India's pre-history, maybe a thousand years B.C.E. It is used for healing, for stimulating plant growth, and for protection from negative forces.

What we have done here is something that has probably not been done in the 3,000 year history of the practice. We have used it aggressively against negative energy and our foes, and have had astonishing success with it.

The ceremony itself is done by burning dried cow manure in an inverted copper pyramid. This is mentioned in one of Christopher Bird's books from back in the 70s. SECRETS OF THE SOIL, I think was the one.He interviewed a man in India who was doing this to
clear the air of pollution in his local area. The ceremony is known as 'purification by fire'.

There is something magical and mystical about taking what would ordinarily be a waste product and using fire to convert it into a substance with high energy, healing effects and other special benefits. Something comparable to the legend of the Phoenix bird, I guess.

The resultant ash is good as a poultice for burns, cuts and abrasions. I mix a little into my chocolate cookie dough, and sometimes I put some into a gel capsule and swallow it that way. MaryK has experienced horses pushing each other aside to eat the stuff out of her hand.

We like to make little balls of clay, about the diameter of a quarter, and drop them into a container of ash. The dried mud ball is a delivery system for the ash. Dropped near a death force tower, it will envelop the tower in an egg-shaped field of energy and not allow the negative energy to escape. Favorite targets are Masonic Lodges, gov't buildings, military bases, known black magic ritual sites, and negative spin vortexes.

The balls of mud are simply an ash delivery system. A lady up in Newfoundland uses croutons instead of mud balls. Just pour some ash into a bag of croutons, shake well, and you have a unique way to deliver ash to the chosen site.

In the beginning, we all used orgone against towers, but orgone alone is just not enough any more. The agnihotra takes it to the spiritual level. It is also bio-interactive, and the orgone devices you make that include agnihotra ash are more powerful than anything
you've ever seen, and can be used as radionic devices. You can mentally send that energy to anyone or anywhere in the world. And you can program the energy for a specific effect if you are using it against a target. It obeys your intent.

Within reason, of course. Your target is not going to fall over dead. But he might become ineffective at what he is doing, and look for other career choices. Here in Arizona, we have blanketed most of the state with a mud ball dropped out of a car window every mile
along the highways. The spray doesn't stick as well as it used to. That's not all we've done, of course, and everything we do works synergistically.

For more information, you can go to the cloudbusters forum on Yahoo and do a search. Look for Captain's Log entries, especially the ones in July and August of last year. We did some amazing stuff back then. Still do.

Agnihotra ceremony starter kits are available here:

http://agnihotra.org/CATALOG/catalog.htm

We have ash available for the price of the postage. We don't sell it, it is a sacred object. All we ask is that the user cover the cost of postage. We also can suppy you with mud balls ready for deploying at a very reasonable price.

Hope this helps.

Dragon

Z-Force Group. Arizona's Global Tyranny First Response Team.

[marykmusic]

This "form letter" is about a year old. Since then, ash has been delivered on the Owl figurine of the street layout of Washington DC; at the Skull and Bones building; at the Denver International Airport (now there's NWO Central!); in Italy (someone had offered to do the Vatican and we sent ash but never heard back.)

I love the bread bits, because then the birds eat the ash-laden goodies and POOP it out everywhere!

Once the ash has been placed in the vicinity of a target, the energy signature is there. It doesn't matter if it gets rained on and flushed away; the signature is what's important.

Intent can intensify the effect. It's bio-interactive. If you have the presence of mind to direct the available energy, it will be so. Whatever you can imagine, that's what's possible.

And remember, it's a subtle energy. Not like a can of spray paint, or "vandalizing."

Here's a quote from a well-placed friend:
The gifting of orgonite and agnihotra has assisted the Earth in providing "grounding points" for higher energies. Gifting the oceans has given the cetaceans powerful tools for their healing work. Meditation/prayer circles have grounded huge energies.

Synergism. --MaryK

[Avalon]

My own two cents, for those of you who are into the orgone stuff, start a simple peer-reviewed journal (not at all hard, costly, or time-consuming due to computers and the internet) so that 'unbelievers' can see some real results. Your arguments would quickly shift from "this shit doesn't exist" to "wow, thats interesting, why does that happen?"

My experience with the chronic knee-jerk skeptic crowd is that first they'll complain that your work has no peer-reviewed backup. Then if you do establish peer-reviewed backup it just won't be good enough for them to accept because it isn't in a first-tier journal. The goalposts always get moved.

[f.n.disinfo.agent]

yea, but fuck the "chronic knee-jerk skeptic crowd." Nobody should spend any time trying to convince them of anything. My point was to have something so that people who are open-minded can look at it and come to their own conclusions.

Again, the point isn't propoganda, its not to convince anyone, its to create some sorta documented evidence so that you don't spend so much time going "no, its for real, its not all in my head." Just give'm a link with objectively researched information and say "figure it out on your own."

Or not, like I said, its just my two cents...

[dragon]

f.n. writes: " My point was to have something so that people who are open-minded can look at it and come to their own conclusions. "

You already have something that open-minded people can look at. You can look at what is posted here, or you can seek out the information archived on several web sites. You can also experiment on your own so you don't have to rely solely on other people's experience.

What you are asking for, it seem to me, is some kind of Authority Figure that everyone can go to to define and explain their experience and tell them that it is o.k. to think and feel that way, and that yes; what you experienced is real. Then they're comfortable when talking to their associates about it. "Well, Dr. Bleepentsteimer of the Orgone Institue says..............."

And Avalon is right. The skeptics will keep moving the goal posts.

We're not looking for skeptics or those who must have some kind of Authority Figure to validate their experience. We are looking for action-oriented people who can think for themselves. When at last the orgone story appears on Fox News, then the skeptics and those who need Authority Figures to do their thinking for them will all come out and say "I always knew that stuff was real". Or words to that effect.

No one can see electricity, but you can observe the effects of current flow. You can harness electricity to do wondrous things, you can even meter and measure it. But you can't see it. Someone posted photos of devices that measure orgone energy, and if you read what we have done with it, you will learn that the effects of orgone can be seen visually and felt experientially. Do you really need a slick-paper magazine with editors and writers who have letters after their names to tell you that this is real, that this is O.K.?

Someone tested an orgone device in chemicalized water, and then expressed uncertainty about whether the orgone was working or not. Well, if you use orgone for a purpose for which it is not suited, then obviously it is not going to work. I can't tell you that a Holy Hand Grenade will keep your chewing gum from losing its flavor overnight, but I can tell you that lots of people have found that they've really mellowed out the atmosphere in the home, and some have reported relief from aches and pains.

When I built my first cloudbuster in October of 2001, it was around 1800 on a Friday evening and the sky was covered in thick chemcrud. The device punched a hole in the clouds while the resin was still hot. That was all the proof I needed to understand that the device works. If there was such a thing as a 'peer-reviewed' journal, then I'd have posted the story there. Would that change some folks' minds?

The only "peers" that would be qualified to write in such a journal would be those who are already experienced in using orgonite and related tools. So how would that be different from reading the same stories from the same people on line, as you are doing here?

No, the peer reviewed journal is just a call for an Authority Figure to validate your experience before you have one. That way, you can go out and play with this stuff and not have to be afraid that someone is going to thing you're strange.

I post, and MaryK posts here, to let people know that there is something they can do to change the world situation. I post my e-mail address frequently because there are hoot-down artists here who jump onto every idea that is not already in their Reality Box and try to squash it. Their snarls and jabs bounce off me like a shot off a skillet, but some people do not like trying to carry on a conversation in such an environment. So they come to me privately, and we talk about things in a back and forth discussion format.

captaindragonfarstar@yahoo.com

Peer reviewed journal? You already got one. Two or three cloudbuster web sites. What else do you need?


Dragon

A.C.M.E. Arizona Coalition of Metaphysical Engineers. [That's us!]

[marykmusic]

Objectively-researched what?

First of all, there is an ongoing discussion on whether chemtrails themselves are real. No objectivity there.

Then, for those who believe that there are chemtrails, the purpose thereof is constantly being argued. None there, either.

For example, look at the non-objective back-and-forth between et in Arcadio ego, and anyone else who tries to do something about the chemtrails (and/or towers, or whatever.) There is huge dissension among even those who believe that chemtrails are indeed happening and are part of a large conspiracy that cannot be stopped, and those who feel they can actually effect change in same.

So, how does anyone do anything objective? --MaryK

[TooStoned]

Ahhh, no:

Peer reviewed journal? You already got one. Two or three cloudbuster web sites. What else do you need?

I'm sorry Dragon, but your websites aren't even close.

Before my current incarnation as a woodworker, years ago I toiled in a pharmacognacy lab (we specialized in terpenes, but any novel and bio-active compound was explored). I never finished my degree but I managed to get my name on a few papers that were published in peer reviewed journals, so I have a passing familiarity with the scientific method and what is required for a journal to publish a paper.


"four orthogonal methods" were required to quantify and qualify whatever we'd found. A further extended battery of tests for bio activity was required, but as we were a chem lab that biology stuff was farmed out to Big Pharm companies (these days DNA framents attached to microchips are used rather than rats or tissue cultures).

Whatever was published could be reproduced by any similiarly equipped lab any where on the globe, this is known as being "verifiable and repeatable".

All of these things were required to be published, and I admit the process has problems, but it is infinetely better than "take our word for it"

Long before anything was published in public my research group would tear the paper and its research apart in our weekly "discussion groups" and if you think people here are harsh and "unfairly biased against your ideas" you should try going to any real scientific research groups discussion meetings and you'd quickly be disabused of your notion of unwarranted persecution.

[marykmusic]

So really, we have few scientific peers. That's why we're not presenting this as a "peer-reviewed" type of thing, according to YOUR definitions. But we do have peers inn the movement, and they constantly review.

Show me any scientist who agrees that we do have chemtrails, they are a Bad Thing, and that we can do something about them.

Meanwhile, all you skeptics are in our way. Move back, let us do what we do, and sit back to reap the benefits.

I feel like the Little Red Hen here ("Who will help me make the bread?"), except that removing chemtrails and other NWO death machinations is meant to benefit the whole planet, skeptics included. --MaryK

[TooStoned]

Move back, let us do what we do, and sit back to reap the benefits.

This is the what every huckster in history asks.

You have no scientific peers because you refuse to provide others with the tools to prove or disprove what you claim.

IIRC a few pages back on this thread eAe posted some photo files of your orgone meters , why not provide them or a circuitry diagram and some orgonite (after a non-disclosure agreement is signed to protect your financial interests ) so that your research can be "indepently verified"?

Until that happens all of you anecdotes must be regarded as probably bullshit. I can't say it doesn't work (after all I haven't tried) but without a lot more disclosure your claims are idistinguishable from that of Snake Oil salesman.

[dragon]

Semmelweiss had the same problem when he went around telling doctors to wash their hands before delivering babies. He was hounded to death by his "peers". It took about a hundred years for the idea to catch hold. It is often noted that science advances one funeral at a time.

The British Navy fed their sailors citrus fruits to prevent scurvy. Because that idea was one we would use the acronymn NIH to describe now, [Not Invented Here], the American navy called them all limeys and refused to examine the idea. We were, after all, somewhat at odds with the Brits, all the way from 1776 to beyond 1812. The information was discredited because of the source. So, sailors, our sailors, continued to die.

So there were lots of "peers" throwing stones at Semmelweiss and the British navy, but just because they closed their eyes and minds to an idea didn't stop Nature from its already pre-determined course.

We still come back to the realization that you insist on having an Authority Figure validate yours or our experience. I am telling you that I don't care what any self-appointed Authority Figure says, I am going with what I know works, and the rest of you can catch up when and if you can. By the time this stuff is accepted as mainstream, it will be because we who are proponents of this idea have become mainstream, and chemtrails will be examined as something that happened back in history. By the time this stuff is settled science in the "approved" journals, the whole world will know what the game is with chemtrails and they won't be able to do that kind of stuff any more.

And if this all doesn't happen within my lifetime, I'm not going to my grave a broken man as Semmelweiss did, because I don't give a hoot what the rest of the world thinks. He did. He was hurt by the rejection and derision of those in his profession. And I won't be locked up and murdered as was Wilhelm Reich, because there are too many of us now, and the time when that would have worked is long past.

Instead, I will continue to pass along the information for those who are ready to hear. The ones who need an Authority Figure or a slick-papered magazine written by degreed "professionals" can just go butt a stump. Go mutter among yourselves, but get out of the way. We who do our own thinking will enjoy our blue skies and green grass, while the rest of you have disease and drought and death falling out of the skies.

But you were told.

Dragon

A.C.M.E. Arizona Coalition of Metaphysical Engineers. [That's us!]

[f.n.disinfo.agent]

Alright, I guess the quickest way to antagonize someone is offer constructive critiscm.

First off, you guys don't seem to understand what a peer-reviewed journal is. Its not an echo-chamber. Your "peers" aren't people who believe what you believe. Your "peers" arent' just "scientists". Your "peers" are people who understand the scientific process and can look at what you are doing (your process) and go "you fucked up here" or "you made a logical leap here" or "this looks tight, good." Again, you are not looking for someone to verify your results, you are looking for someone to analyze your procedure. Your results and whatever conclusions can be drawn from them are a different thing altogether.

And no science is not an "Authority Figure." You are coming dangerously close to the hard-right's "science is just a secular religion" bs. Science is invention that allows us to verify what we believe. Its a way of thinking that allows us to discover where we are making correct observations about the world and where we are falling into fantasy. The process of science and its ability to clarify thinking has been proven repeatedly over the last 4 centuries.

You don't have to be a scientist to use scientific thinking. Its something everone, whether they are a chemist or a poet, should be intimitely familiar with.

Here's a simple outline for a peer-reviewed experiment. You get 6 people who understand how to do experiments. 3 people who believe in orgone and 3 people who don't. you make a hypothesis. "wow, this patch of land continually has chemtrails over it. i predict that by setting up an orgone thingamajiggy in this area, the chemtrails will disappear." You set up the procedure. "we'll take a picture of the sky once a day for one week. then we'll set up an orgone thingy here. then we'll take a picture of the sky from the same place every day for two weeks." You then take the procedure outline, the equipment, and the evidence (the photographs)and your conclusions to your "peers." They look at what you did, may or may not agree with your conclusions, but certainly emphasise any defficiencies in your procedure. Then, when they're satisfied the experiment was conducted well, you publish the results...everything, evidence and all. Do that 20 or 30 times and you have a peer-reviewed journal that ANYONE can look at and verify. thats what scientific objectivity is.

websites that say "i did this and this and this happened" are useless to anyone trying to see the truth. There is no way to verify whether you are just making it up, sincerely believe but are complelety deluded, or completely on the level.

Yea, it seems involved. real work always does. but lets say you have 2,000 people working with you now. Set up some decent, verifyiable experiments with hard evidence and prove your hypotheses and you'll get 20,000 no problem. how fast would that change the world?

[TooStoned]

Stop trying to psycho-analyze and bs your skeptics, and provide one of your meters and some orgonite otherwise folks how are "rigorous" in their exploration of truth will assume you are little different than the Penis enlarging spammers.

Nobody but a fool believes the announcer on a GINSU by Ronco commercials, even when the have an audience of shills to provide "testimonials"

What are you afraid of? If your stuff works (and I wish it did) then allowing a "non-beliver" to check it out directly shouldn't be a problem.

Unless your trying to hide something?

[marykmusic]

I started this thread to tell a story. You don't like my story? Go play somewhere else. --MaryK