History of the Orgonite/Cloudbuster Movement

[philipacentaur]

Since when was Science able to measure 'Evil'?

Obviously, it's when a truck drives up to repair the evil when it's broken.

[orz]

Dragon, thanks for the answer, I think i have a better idea about your claims now.

The problem i have with the whole thing is that if what you say is true, then there must be a kind of shadow cellphone tower industry operating seperately from the mundane technology of running the cell phone networks, and somehow able to add their bad energy technology to the towers without normal non-evil technicians and other people noticing?

Or if the evil-producing element of the towers is entirely supernatural then why bother to combine it with mundane electrical equipment at all? Why not have it just exist as an invisible floating orb or something?

But you claim they sent a repair truck, which implies this stuff is detectable and does involve some physical technology in the tower? How can that be possible and yet remain secret. Surely you don't claim that everyone working in the cellphone/broadcast/communications industry is 'in on' this plan, down to the level of guys driving maintainence trucks around?

My problems believing most of the stuff you're talking about here basically comes from the uneasy mix of science and supernatural terms and ideas. If something's magic or whatever, than ok I guess it's not scientifically measurable, but if you combine that with technology which is scientific, then it just can't really fit together in a way that makes any sense to me.

As for TIs, what you may not realize is that we are ALL Targeted Individuals.

Contradiction in terms. If this bad energy is "broadcast" to everyone then it's not targeted, quite the opposite. Also if this is the case it raises the same question as chemtrails ie how do those doing this stuff remain untouched by the negative effects you claim?

[dragon]

We're making progress, Orz. That is good.

Nothing supernatural about the energy that comes from these pieces of equipment. It has to be a frequency. That frequency would be read on an instrument in the targeted area, maybe? The energy is seen mostly as black, though our boys have reported red energy at times. We don't even try to define or describe it now. We just let a mud ball go out the window and know that it will be settled.

The mud ball/agnihotra energy is all positive, and will reinforce the energy if dropped near a positive energy place. If the negative energy in a particular location is static, or residual energy, such as with a ritual sacrifice area, then the positive energy will struggle against and finally displace the negative energy and become the dominant energy force in that area. This renders that site unuseable for black magic again.

If the dark, destructive energy is being generated, as from a tower, then the agnihotra energy will simply surround the tower and form an egg-shaped containment field around it, restricting the negative energy to the immediate area. Usually a range of no more than 10 feet or so.

So, the black energy is 3-D localized in origin. The agnihotra energy would be the one that you would probably classify as 'supernatural'. What we have done is move the struggle against the dark side to the mental and spiritual planes, where we have allies, and a better chance of success.

And no, it is not a contradiction to call all of us Targeted Individuals. Every one of us is a 'target'. And just because they hit a whole group of us, Hiroshima style, doesn't make it any less up close and personal for the individual who receives the tainted vaccine with the microchip in it because he was led to believe that he needs a flu shot because of the ill health symptoms he's feeling from the influence of the "cell phone" towers.

How to keep it secret? They kept the truth about the Cold War a secret for decades. What does the technician in the control shack know? He just knows what they tell him, that they are not receiving the 'signal'. And he's probably a bit loopy himself from years of exposure to those frequencies. It was two or three days before MaryK and I recovered from our brief exposure on the top of that mountain. Imagine working in that kind of energy field all day.

And as for large organizations being a part of the deal, participating in the shadow government's plans, all you gotta do is look at the mass media, Google, Qwest, and some others to know that they are all in this together. But the guy in the maintenance truck, does he know the real story? Probably not, no more than the ship's crewmen who were looking for Red October knew the whole story.

We are all Pawns In The Game, as the title of the book says.

I can't explain the problem down to the granular level. I know enough about it to know that there is a problem. Who knows how much and who works for who and who holds all the secrets and how they are able to keep them is all academic stuff. The problem exists, the solution is at hand and readily available to anyone who wants to use it. I can't wait until I understand how it is that those who send the planes up are not affected by the crud that comes down. Maybe they are. I am not concerned with them. I am concerned about those I care for, and that includes the people in my little town who are just trying to live their lives. And that includes most everyone else in this country.

How they keep it a secret, that's peripheral stuff. Do the suits who send the planes out become affected by the spray? I don't know. I don't have to wait until I know before I begin to do something about it.

Dragon

[professorpan]

tainted vaccine with the microchip in it

So, microchips are hidden in flu shots? Do you believe *everything* you read or hear from someone? Do you realize what would be involved in putting microchips in flu vaccines, and how easy that would be to detect?

(Synchronistically, I'm listening to Democracy Now! which has an interview with the author of "Medical Apartheid" -- which deals with the very *real* abuse of blacks by the medical and pharmaceutical establishment. I encourage everyone to listen to this episode -- the podcast for the Friday, Jan 19 episode can be found here: http://democracynow.org/, and the transcript here: http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl? ... 19/1432231)

And dragon, my man, you never answered my question. I remote viewed you yesterday and saw some etheric parasites in your brain. I have a device I've developed that will remove them, which I've used successfully on many people. They've all agreed they feel much better now.

Do you believe me? Why or why not?

How is what I just said any different than what you have been saying? Your claims all rely upon people's visions, psychic impressions, and collective delusions -- all of which can be manipulated by someone with knowledge of how to control behavior.

The more I read your stuff, the more cult-like it appears. I don't necessarily think you and your orgone warriors are doing any harm with your mudballs and alien base zapping -- your activities are more like a metaphysical, sci-fi LARP (live action role-playing) game than an actual cult. But when you start telling mentally ill people they are being targeted by government agents, then I think it crosses the line and you are very likely doing great harm.

[philipacentaur]

The more I read your stuff, the more cult-like it appears. I don't necessarily think you and your orgone warriors are doing any harm with your mudballs and alien base zapping -- your activities are more like a metaphysical, sci-fi LARP (live action role-playing) game than an actual cult. But when you start telling mentally ill people they are being targeted by government agents, then I think it crosses the line and you are very likely doing great harm.

I agree with that, though I think it's also harmful in other ways. What happens when a person who has adopted this belief system finds reason to reject it, yet their original problems still persist? Is it back to square one with them? Back to living in constant fear? Adopting the ideology of a "deprogrammer"?

[Trifecta]

PP makes a good point Al. I remember an ex marine of the Etheric Freedom Fighters forum, nice guy bit confused about stuff and obviously suffering from PTO after a third tour of Duty in iraq (1 & 2) we communicated a bit, i told him of my personal experiences, he had his own. However, things changed whne Don via carol told him he was an MK delta. Now I don't know if that is true or not, but this span the guy out, he was on a more than personal mission to get back what he now believed he had lost.

When all the rumours circulated that I was an MI6/Alien/MK ultra handler etc etc, he believed I had been feeding him false information and now I was a target of his venom, death threats ensued. I tried to reason with the guy, even laughed at the accusations, but to him and his new knowledge I was a them...still dont know what he is up to nowadays and he has not kicked my door in and killed me yet, but is should be a cautionary tale, not to believe everthing you are told by so called psychics..after all Bradley told you I was a them and you and your believers ostracised me from the network..sure someone was and is still having a good laugh about that one.

That said, please try this stuff for yourselves, use your own discermnet and try to find some empirical evidence..I did, it works, why and how...don't have a clue?

[TooStoned]

Hey Orz!

... (cell phone towers, etc) the radiation they put out, and that such radiation is not inherently bad for you

Separate from cloud busting, Sally water, orgonite and the rest (of which I remain highly skeptical) I am pretty sure that very strong EMF (that's electro-magnetic force) fields may not good for cells in certain circumstances. I may be wrong, and honestly I haven't done the hard nosed research (e.g. jorunal searches, newz, etc) to figure out if kids near high power lines really do get more leukemia, if folks near microwave towers have more health problems etc. However, I believe the probability is high, and just thinking about known physical properties lends creedence to the idea the strong EMF (at certain Hz and wavelengths) is problematic for cells.

FACT: Charged particles within EM fields align themselves to the poles in the field and are pushed along the lines of force that comprise the field (we had a really nifty instrument in my lab called Capillary Electrophoresis Spectrophotometer that exploited this physical property to seperate molecules with incredibly high precision because of the non laminar flow through the stationary phase induced by the emf. )

FACT: Most human cells are merely bags within bags of water filled with charged molecules (or at least molecules that have polarity diferentials, the same thing for this argument as the difference in polarity acts the same way as a formal charge in the presence of Emf) and the work of the cell is accomplished by those charged particles moving in and out of those bags (the neurons use charges particles to operate too, but they are hydrophobic and are not "bags of water")

Conclusion: Strong EMF pushes molecules around in a cell (now if I wasn't so lazy, weak with boolean operators, and had access to good data bases I could know if any research backs this up)

Hypothesis: Certain strong EMF fields (Hz, wavelength, and amplitude dependent probably) adversely affect the intra and inter cellular processes in biological organisms.

Now if I only could do the research I could reject, accept or modify that hypothesis

BTW, I agree with you that even "magic" (delving whole hog into the mush of definitions that infects this thread like Yrsenia on fleas in plague ratz) must have some kind of observable effect, otherwise believing in it is not just fantasy, but the very definition of insanity...

And that's my official position for the meat puppet world

Now in the "imaginal realm of shamanism (BTW I loathe that word as I am not a Tuigan nomad)", my "animals" and other "familiars" tell me that EMF is a huge part of how "they" exert and maintain control and its very damaging to the flow of vital force everywhere in nature as well as human conciousness raising above the "survival/fight/flight", malkuth, level.

But I've learned that not every voice I "hear" always tells the unvarnished truth (even my friggin helpers, Raven is a real pain in the ass but "she" says I just need a better sense of humour), and not every aspect of my "direct cognition" always directly translates into what I experience as the linear time 3-D world (i am not the clearest channel, by any stretch of the imagination)...



BTW did you see my physics explanation on page 14 for Dragon's question about "matter is mostly empty space"? Anyone? I'm asking because its been years since I 've been engaged in academia-I make wooden things these days- and if I muddled it I wanna know (knowledge: use it, or lose it)...

[philipacentaur]

That said, please try this stuff for yourselves, use your own discermnet and try to find some empirical evidence..I did, it works, why and how...don't have a clue?

What if we have tried it already and were unconvinced? I've enjoyed your posts here, but they're teetering on the fence in a lot of ways. I would have absolutely nothing to say about any of this if the conversation stopped at experimentation, and didn't extend to being what is, for better or worse, a vehicle for political/social/spiritual rhetoric. Actually, I guess it works both ways, as the rhetoric draws people who are attracted to the "science" aspect as well as the message behind the rhetoric.

Have you tried your experiments again since your departure from the movement? I'd be interested to see what sort of results you'd get upon repeating the experiments every few years, noting your current beliefs and how you think they might influence your observations as you go.

Has anyone read "Amazing and Wonderful Mind Machines You Can Build" by G. Harry Stine? It's been somewhat popular, and reprinted several times. It's sort of cute, and encourages people to experiment themselves, but it's full of stuff that's been explained more than adequately by hard science. I doubt it would be taken as seriously without his "credentials" being mentioned. Saying you're a "nuclear physicist" is like saying your a superhero to a lot of the people who would be predisposed to find an interest in something like this. I mean, look at Stanton Friedman.

[Telexx]

TooStoned: scientist, shamen, adventurer, is there nothing this man cannot do? Cannot solve?

Give me a break! LOL...

Thanks,

Telexx

[Burnt Hill]

http://bps-research-digest.blogspot.com/2006/12/price-of-money-selfishness.html

Since when was Science able to measure 'Evil'?

I realize this is not exactly what you meant ,and it was covered in a lost thread, but it is along that line of thinking, also at this link are the Stanley Millgram studies. So Sure science is starting to be able to measure evil.

[TooStoned]

Hey Telexx:

Your wounded ego is showing

I really do think I muddled the physics a little on the "empty space" explanation...

[professorpan]

I think my problem with this thread is the chaotic intermingling of magick, science, and outright fantasy in dragon's material and the replies. If we separate these elements out, we can find some interesting and useful tangents.

I'm an agnostic when it comes to chi, orgone, prana, and other energies. I've seen qigong work, and I've practiced it on and off for several years. I'm not sure if it's an actual undetected (by science) energy, or the *belief* in an energy that makes it work, but it does work. The insurance companies would not be covering acupuncture if it didn't get results, as someone pointed out earlier.

My thoughts on the efficacy of magick and psi are similar. I've seen evidence, particularly the meta-analyses of psi studies, that suggest that non-locality works on macro- as well as micro-levels, that telepathy is very real, and that dreams can be precognitive. I also have personal experiences and anecdotes that point to the reality of psi.

I wrote in another thread about my experiments with "pyramid energy," so I'm not hostile to claims of orgone devices based upon geometry, crystals, or whatever.

My problem is the melding of psychic technologies with a smorgasbord of parapolitical/conspiracy theorizing. It seems Croft, dragon, et al have grafted nearly every conspiracy trope (alien bases, black helicopters, chemtrails, MIBs, cell phone towers projecting evil energy, microchipped vaccines, wavies, etc. etc.) onto the theories of Reich, remote viewing, dowsing, agnihotra, and other fashionable psychic trends.

What emerges might be a fun reality tunnel to operate within, and it makes for some great play (stealthily burying wands and tossing energized mudballs). But it's a colossal mess, really -- a metafiction which sucks up any and every kooky idea into its canon. I'd like to know if there are *any* specific conspiracies or paranormal ideas that dragon et al reject, or whether they're all hoovered up into the orgone collective mind and pasted onto the dogma.

Again, pretty harmless for the most part -- until someone unbalanced gets too immersed and becomes convinced he or she is the target of nefarious aliens, or gets suckered into spending his/her life savings on a house full of rods, wands, pyramids, and zappers, or abandons his/her family to move into a lead-lined Faraday chamber in the middle of the desert.

As some of you know, I perform as a mentalist. In other words, I perform what look like psychic demonstrations on stage -- as entertainment. If I chose to use my skills to build a cult, it would be quite easy -- the examples of others using trickery and perceptual manipulation range from some of the spiritualist mediums of the 19th century up through Sai Baba and his "miraculous" sleight of hand. It's the easiest thing in the world to be a charlatan, and it's a good living if you can live with yourself while fleecing people of their dreams, their critical thinking, and their money.

I know how easy it is to use suggestion to make someone experience energy, to see things that aren't there, and to believe nearly anything. I would never use the things I've learned to shape someone's beliefs, but there are countless people who would. And I feel obliged to point out when I see possible examples of it happening.

There are no inherent dangers in working with qi, prana, orgone, and other energetic systems. But when these energies become part of an us/them, open-source warrior mythology, I see the potential for danger and harm.

I think this post has signaled the depletion of my qi on the subject. I just have a couple little bits of advice that have helped me over the years -- take it or leave it.

Your mind can inhabit a variety of reality tunnels, and once you're in the tunnel, your mind is incredibly good at reinforcing that reality model -- selectively filtering out the data that doesn't fit and shaping data to conform. So choose the mental spaces you inhabit wisely, and always check yourself and your BS (belief system).

Some parts of a belief system may be valid, while others may be hogwash (i.e. as Robert Anton Wilson said "sumbunall" -- some but not all). I.e., Agnihotra may work on an energetic level, but that doesn't mean cell phone towers are emitting evil rays.

Test the spirits, and think for yourself.

[orz]

I am pretty sure that very strong EMF (that's electro-magnetic force) fields may not good for cells in certain circumstances.

Oh yeah, I think this is quite possible too. This is my point, even if Dragon and co clear all the 'bad energy' or whatever it's still possible that the EMF could be harming the population in genuine, scientifically provable ways. If so then I'd say this rather than evil magic is what's causing people to feel ill near cellphone towers or whateverrr.

Dragon;

What does the technician in the control shack know?

Well, in order to get the job he presumably knows at least a bit about the way the technology he works with actually works.

More to the point, the people who acutally design and build the technology do so with a total understanding of how it works. It's not secret, and there's nowhere for special evil-producing technology to be included. What I'm saying is the workings of a cellphone tower are knowable... the electronics do exactly what they're designed to do and no more. People who aren't part of any evil scheme design them, repair them, use them all the time and never once say "hey what's this weird black box inside the transmitter that doesn't have any known purpose but is connected to the power and the broadcasting circuits?"

If the evil's not 'added' but is an inherent quality of the type/frequency of radiation used then that actually doesn't support your case really. the frequency of a cellphone tower's emmisions is a scientifically measurable thing, and more to the point an integral part of how it works. If you've 'cleaned' the energy then presumably you'd have changed the frequency to a non-harmful one, but in that case the tower would no longer function properly as a communication device?

And he's probably a bit loopy himself from years of exposure to those frequencies.

Haha oh dear.. that's one of the best getout clauses I've heard for a while!

[Burnt Hill]

The insurance companies would not be covering acupuncture if it didn't get results, as someone pointed out earlier.

Not to argue against accupuncture, its worked wonders for a few friends of mine, but the Insurance companies certainly do cover methods that dont work, and they dont cover some that do work. For example chelation therapy. Of course its all about what makes them the most money. The root of all evil? Certainly.

[Telexx]

PP - good post; there are lots of good points in this thread. Personally I have no problem with subtle energy and its manipulation by acupuncture, tai chi or radionics; but these are things I've seen first hand (my business partner is a 1st rate acupuncturist in fact).

I'm not closed to that but I am closed to some of the metaphysical warfare stories posted here. So lots of interesting points but, sadly, a lot of self-aggrandising drivel too.

(Leading me nicely to...)

TooStoned: it's your pomposity that's showing, but thanks for playing & do try again. Personally, I'm here to learn, maybe I could learn something from you even if you get off your high horse (I remain in hope).

Apart from trying to score hollow points on an Internet message board (hey, if that's your thing knock yourself out) why are you here hmmn?

Thanks,

Telexx