the eighth day

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the eighth day

Postby pitcairn » Thu Jan 25, 2007 6:10 am

I was away from the computer until very late tonight, and had intended to edit some of my posts of today for errors (missing words, problems with grammar and punctuation, etc.) consequent to my posting, of necessity, in great haste

only to find the first effort thwarted by a locked thread

so they will remain uncorrected, my apologies

this has been an interesting interlude, my time here as both reader-only and, far more briefly, reader and poster

an interlude that is now coming to an end

I find it ironic that a board so laden with self professed dismay and disillusion in face of the inequities, injustices, and violent misuse of man by man so proliferate in the world cannot seem to sustain civility, courtesy, and congenial mutuality between and amongst its own members

defense of, and a call for, good manners in the midst of conflict is not to be confused with defense of a particular position, assertion of fact, and/or proposed argument: I point this out becos there seems a great deal of confusion about this, generally, here; this confusion leads to accusations of, and heated opposition to, a perceived "taking sides" or "declaring alliances" over substance, rather than a more reasonable and accurate understanding that none of us need agree with anyone as a requisite to passionately defending that person's right to reasonable self expression

for the last time in re the two "hot button" topics: orgonite/agnihotra ash, and Donovan's material; and for the first time, my personal opinion on the substance of those, as distinct from my opinion on the right of anyone to be accorded polite audience, and a reasonable argument/refutation if found obscure or wanting in their proposals:

orgonite/agnihotra ash: I have no personal experience with either of these , and have found the reports/discussion posted here and elsewhere of interest; all the more in case of the latter, becos of the very fascinating and intriguing history and international practice and study of the effects, as well as the obvious parallels to certain biodynamic practices. I am unable to form an opinion as to the efficacy of either orgonite or a.ash, but am open to learning and hearing more about them, as information becomes available. as I am an adult, I feel no need of, and have a decided aversion to any notion of, a "nanny" to guard or shield me from any possible "hucksterism," as I am quite capable, and well experienced, in the exercise of my own judgment

Donovan's material: as I seem to be the only, or one of the few, posters here to have read more than the maths/geometry pages on Donovan's site, I will restrict my remarks to that subset of the material there

as a former teacher, I recognised immediately the indicators of Donovan's severe dyslexia, and took that into account when reading his posts and website material; I did not mention it in response to the endless "Glick/Crick" commentary becos I felt that would be for him to bring up, if he felt comfortable doing so in such a hostile environment; he did, and so I feel it permissible to mention it here:

that someone has difficulty composing language in a manner familiar to us, a manner that follows (consistently or at all) conventional structures and patterns, does not indicate a lack of intelligence, nor is it to be taken as a sure sign of invalid content or process

equally, it does not assure validity

even moving to and fro between well composed texts in different languages consistently presents problems for writer, translator, and reader - the proverbial, and very significant, matter of all those things, always very important, that are "lost in translation"

understanding each other requires effort and humility on all sides: there will be little progress if all discussion is reduced to a form of contest in which rhetorical "might" always, and only, makes right, and such right alone may carry the day

I don't know if Donovan's maths/geometry propositions are "true" and demonstrable; I suspect that after accounting for confusion arising from miscommunication, neither does anyone else here, really, truly, know

there is a kind of intelligence that I like to call the inventor's intelligence: this sort of intelligence is at its best when "tinkering," when actually making things, manipulating them, seeing what they will do, and "listening" to them thro all the senses, while observing them acutely and without prejudice, and only then applying intellect to explain what has been "heard" and observed

we could mention here the famous bumble bee: theoreticians might have denied the bee the flight she performs quite handily, had the bee relied on "proofs" of incapacity, rather than simple instinct and instinct's expression/demonstration

we don't really understand everything, which seems to me a good thing; and it certainly seems a good thing to acknowledge any observed thing whether or not we can account for it with the understanding we have to date

to all the "rude debunkers" - isn't it possible that the authors of the propositions you find so offensively ill conceived and presented are simply mistaken - not that they are deliberate prevaricators with ulterior motives, or, perhaps worse, pathologically mendacious?

of course there is always also the outside, however far outside, possibility that they are in some way(s) correct: if not in understanding, then in observation?

there are, after all, things that "work" yet we know not why

anyway

I've tried in all my time here to be respectful to all, careful in my words, and to always encourage us all; for those occasions when I failed and was intemperate, for such I apologise; I have, certainly, been quite tart in replies to posts that impugned my character, intentions, and methods, and for this I do not apologise

I enjoy exploration of a wide variety of subjects and an open and far ranging exchange between and amongst all manner of people

if anyone here would like to begin or continue a correspondence with me, please send me a private message and I will be glad to provide an email address

thank you

and of course, thank you to Jeff for his hospitality and generosity
Everything in nature has a power in it.
-Thomas Banyacya
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Bravo

Postby Trifecta » Thu Jan 25, 2007 7:01 am

Well said Pitcairn.

I would ask you to please reconsider leaving the board, you bring a great deal to the table here and would be a loss to the collective imho. Buttons have been pushed here by various proponents, which is not a bad thing in most cases. I also feel the energy of this board has been taken down by a few, but cannot for the life of me decide if this is a ploy or shear ignorance, the victims it would seem on the face of it to be the very same who have the moderators cosh over their heads..mine to no doubt, especially as I am dyslexic and a very lazy one at that, and once a major orgone activist ... maybe we are just not welcome here, for those reasons alone or other??.

I am sure board members who consider themselves trully rigorous will get the true picture, which does not have any emotional baggage attached to it, perhaps in light of this they will reveal themsleves or the members will gently nudge them in the right direction. Since the board moved here the atmosphere has changed, we now have much more moderating, yet the personal attacks have increased expotentially..its an odd one, but none the less, part of my experience of the energy levels on the board.

Perhaps we have had our day, perhpas the attackers, will see their own faults and adjust ..who knows. What is most importnat for me, is to know people like you exist in this world and that gives me hope for the future.

Thank you.

Edited and not being os lazy about my copy...in respect of Pitcairn's rigour
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Postby marykmusic » Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:16 am

Is it because of being, as Osculum posits,

major orgone activist ... maybe we are just not welcome here, for those reasons alone or other??.

...that there is always someone, anyone, who will create a personal crusade to show how "wrong" we are?

Does this mean that for all the time I've been posting here (and never until the last month or so saw this treatment) that I've been persona non grata but didn't know it? I've certainly talked about these subjects before.

Shoot, I've started chamtrail threads more than once, that got very little discussion out of others. And talked about orgonite and Agnihotra ash.

Or was it when Dragon started posting lately that the alarm bell was suddenly rung?

I don't know. But I have seldom had anyone try so hard to piss me off as I have had recently. --MaryK
http://www.zforcegroup.com

"You cannot wifstand my supewiew intewect." --Tweety Bird
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Postby Joe Hillshoist » Thu Jan 25, 2007 9:24 pm

Pitcairn, i would be sad to see you leave this board, but you do whatever you feel is right. It was awesome talking to you here, I really enjoyed it, and this board has lost someone very good if you leave. IMO.

Thanks and Cheers
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Postby Wombaticus Rex » Thu Jan 25, 2007 9:50 pm

bummer to see you go, but understandable -- thanks for sticking around as long as you did
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Postby Et in Arcadia ego » Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:49 pm

Pitcairn, I appreciated your excellent message. I communicate again that you're welcome in my Universe and I hope to see you in an active role here in the future.

Thanks also for your prayers, I'm humbled by your compassion.
"but I do know that you should remove my full name from your sig. Dig?" - Unnamed, Super Scary Persun, bbrrrrr....
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Better late than never....

Postby LilyPatToo » Mon Jan 29, 2007 2:02 pm

It took me *days* to find this thread, after hearing about it and wanting very much to come and discover why pitcairn, of all people, was leaving the board. But many of us have been having problems with the board software and for me it was impossible to use the board's Search function or to post (most of the time) or even read much at all. Critical Error messages appeared if I even clicked on the links in emails, so I'm way, way behind in my reading.

Having been busy defending myself on another--much ruder and infinitely more meanspirited--board myself lately, I pretty much missed out on the whole orgonite brouhaha. Not sure if I'd have been much use in damping down the flames here, but I wish I'd known and at least tried.

When posters like pitcairn leave, we all lose. I learned from his posts and was often amused at the same time--wit in the service of imparting knowledge/opinion is a wonderful thing. So I'll try to stay in touch via email, pitcairn, but I too hope that you change your mind and come back here one day.

Boards, like other groups of human beings, have their tides and tend to change according to some (to me) invisible, arcane re-ordering process. Which means that the current status quo may be altered out of recognition in as little as a few weeks or months. When it suits you, I really hope you'll return, pitcairn.

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Postby Avalon » Tue Jan 30, 2007 9:17 am

You and I have not had many interchanges here, pitcairn. But I've been happy to have your thoughtful and civil modelling of respectful dialogue in the time you've been here.

I hope you won't totally close the door on posting here.
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Postby Frankenkitty » Sun Apr 08, 2007 5:39 pm

Social intercourse has always been an art form. It's always a great loss when logical and open debate gives way to argumentum ad hominem. Sad when political leadership and those who put themselves in visible positions resort to it. People tend to emulate those in visible positions or positions of power and wealth. It has set a bad example for everyone. The bad example is conducive to nothing but a continued degradation of the democratic process. The continuous degradation of due process.

Logical fallacy is generally resorted to when there is deception or no clear ground on which to base an argument. Or when it is important to divert the direction of an investigation with mob mentality derision.

Surprising too, when those who purport to support open and free discussion act to the contrary. I have always said: Trolls are like azzholes, everyone has one but you can only do something about your own.


:wink:
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