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Finally have the book in my hand and am excited about getting started. Did anyone want to start off with observations?

I'm struck by a few initial observations. The first is that there is group work, which is perfect for our environment. Second is Moss' statement that active dreaming is a method of shamanic lucid dreaming. Lastly about the importance of a dream journal. I've felt such a journal is becoming an essential the more I read of them. Although not an originator of such journals, probably the biggest proponent of dream journals is the OTO and related magickal traditions. Recording your progress and your state of mind may elucidate a form of communication, even if one must discover it much later through retrospection.

Moss gives the advice of having your children keep a dream journal. What effect does this have over one's life? Does the journal not become just a secret book but also your personal Holy Book?

Moss' high endorsement of dream cultivation in children inspire me to relate them to living oracles. He tells a few anedoctal stories of children perhaps occaisonally able to peer in the future. Many of us had similar experiences. Is there something about the most innocent of us and their ability to relay such communications? How carefully should childrens dreams be heard? Do not interpret them though. That is work for the child. What is the most primal source of our oracles? I doubt it is inanimate divination.

I'm a big Chris Knowles fan. His most recent post called re-enchantment dialogues part 2, from his blog Secret Sun:

Then write down your favorite- and not-so-favorite dreams. Again, work very hard to pull all of this out of your head. Keep a dream journal if you're in that headspace, but concentrate on recording dreams from your past.

As with the memories, those muscles will grow stronger from use. You'll not only find yourself remembering dreams you had, you'll remember remembering them as well, which is equally important.

Dreams are very powerful tools for changing your focus. Seeing the world through the prism of dream is the place you want to get to. If you've had moments in which dream reality encroached on temporal reality, write that down too. Paying attention to the lighting is important, especially what the sky might have looked like.

Hello? Anyone still interested? Those were my thoughts on the intro and first chapter...

Occult, I've been reading the book. I'm fascinated by the subject, mostly due to my own extreme and vivid dreaming, but Moss' approach and style is a little bit "self help-ish" for my tastes. I've only covered the same ground you have so I can't make much of an assessment, but I would be interested in ideas regarding the actual process of dream-journaling.Are people keeping an actual book next to the bed? Or where? I find if I don't make a highly concerted effort to retain the jist of the dream, it quickly fades - in fact, some times just the thought that I need to write the thing down manages to dominate the thought of the dream enough to diminish the memory beyond ressurection. So any thoughts on technique might be welcome to me.

Occult Means Hidden wrote:group work, which is perfect for our environment.

I suggest we make surreptiticious use of the What are you dreaming right now? thread in the lounge for recording and discussion of dreams which we feel are share-worthy. I had a doozy this morning, of which a few scraps remain.

I'm no expert myself. A few techniques I've heard reiterated to help remember dreams are that it is good to associate novel situations in the waking world, as if recounted from a dream you recorded. This is a mental exercise. More yogic may be to spend some time to unwind before bed, meditate, and associate your next act (through mantra?) for the purpose of recording your dream, while the journal is near you. Another idea is to associate a waking cue with a cue to write down your thoughts. You would train yourself in the waking world to play a cue randomly, to which you respond by immediately writing down your thought and recent actions. You then use this cue to wake yourself in the morning.

Moss is self-helpish somewhat. That aspect is a turn-off. Very easy to read. But we shouldn't expect an academic treatise for deep analysis in our first book club eh?

I had an experience some days before I read the book. It may have been my first OoBE. It was somewhat terrifying but also short lasting. I just (almost violently) floated from one corner of my sleeping dormicile to the next. Very vivid.

Sorry, OMH, I've been meaning to post something here.

Having been busy, I'm about where you guys are. I read a bit, put it down and it's been on my desk for awhile. Now it's time to return it, but I can probably take it out again. I'll try to make some time to read if so.

Chapter Four deals with journaling in general, so maybe that will be of interest. In the past, I've thought of a tape recorder which you could switch on with your eyes closed, but even that activity might be too much. I think some parts of some dreams are right-brain activity and are therefore evanescent. It seems like I read something recently which informs that opinion, but damned if I know where.

Anyway, it is an interesting subject, so I will try to continue.

I have been very preoccupied right now....I read the book and will be jumping in with comments very soon...this i the 1st time I've checked RI for like, 3 weeks! After I get settled in to my new place, I'll be back to talk dreamin'!

I forget where I left off in the book - was enjoying it but ... life got in the way.

But I feel I can now return to it.

I was concerned at first that it seemed a bit "self-helpish" but upon beginning to actually read it I didn't find it to be that so much. Well, maybe just a tad.

Anyway, I promise to get back to it and chime in here.

Happy Dreaming All!

life in the way here, and hopefully an opening is approaching where I can join in the discussion. Thanks for the nudge, OMH.

Well, I have not been able to read much more as I had hoped. The only observation that I had like a month ago was that I found much of the writing quite accessible or even quotable, for example on the idea of active dreaming as conscious living: "It is about walking in everyday life as if we are moving through a forest of living symbols that are looking at us (to borrow from Baudelaire, who saw these things with a poet's clarity)." I also appreciated the scientific anecdotes and quotes from masters like Jung, at least in the parts I read. The importance of journals I already know and have cheerfully ignored most of my life, perhaps that might change. The value of journals for children seems like a good takeaway message.

What I did not appreciate was the perceived emphasis on artificial methods of getting results from dreaming. I also don't like the idea of another "authority" explaining my dreams. In an early chapter he states, "dreams belong to the dreamers", yet he contradicts that idea at every turn. Elsewhere he says, "dreams require action", but I don't know that they always do. He makes many statements that just make me vaguely uncomfortable. So my experience was just comme ci, comme ca.

I was amused this morning to catch this quote in the ISGP thread in general discussion.

LilyPatToo wrote:Thank you for those links, tazmic--particularly the second one, where Joël van der Reijden is posting and said this downthread:

...Going through the photos I laughed, thinking you had picked the wrong picture for Robert Moss... But I was WRONG! The Cercle's Robert Moss is the exact same person as Robert Moss the lucid/active dreaming expert! I was always interested in his work, having bought Dreamgates and his related audio program on that 10 years ago. He's also on Coast to Coast AM all the time. Checked for this years ago, but seeing the dream guy grew up in Australia I assumed it was a different Robert Moss... absolute bizarre it's the same guy. Overthrowing countries with Brian Crozier and Ted Shackley in the 1970s. Undermining labor unions in the 1980s. And today he's a well-known dream doctor who never talks politics.

I look forward to reading more of all your experiences of the book.

"It is about walking in everyday life as if we are moving through a forest of living symbols that are looking at us (to borrow from Baudelaire, who saw these things with a poet's clarity)."

That quote rather struck out at me. As in, it struck home, I recognise that experience fully.

Anway, I did want to join the book club really. Sorry about that. I have a problem with putting thought into action. I'm working on it.

But I used to be a lucid dreamer. I had very high levels of control over events in my dreams. I could write a million things about it. And they would all connect to everything else, and then I would start to completely ramble, and frankly it would go on forever. So I try not to do that.

With regard to dear old LilyPatToo's comments, the spooks are connected to the secret societies.

They have been hiding their secret wisdom for centuries. The Fools. They turn Mystery into Ritual and kill it stone dead. Perhaps that is why some of them are death cultists.

But many of them are cognisant of subtle realities beyond the mundane material appearance that is given to us.

It doesn't necessarily make them any better people, sadly.

Going to post mythoughts bout chapters 2 and 3 soon. Too tired to function now. Also add some comments to peoples response.

I've been very absent owing to a whole lotta work (and when I'm not working I try to switch off the computer), but I'm planning to reward myself with this book when I send in my big job on December 9... So don't say if it was the butler with the candlestick or whatever.

I just thought I'd chime in in response to this:

barracuda wrote: I would be interested in ideas regarding the actual process of dream-journaling.Are people keeping an actual book next to the bed? Or where? I find if I don't make a highly concerted effort to retain the jist of the dream, it quickly fades - in fact, some times just the thought that I need to write the thing down manages to dominate the thought of the dream enough to diminish the memory beyond ressurection. So any thoughts on technique might be welcome to me.

I'm far from disciplined in any way, but I managed to keep a dream/meditation/I Ching journal for almost a year. The short answer is that you get better as you do it. I had the journal and a pen next to my bed, then the ritual was: wake up, think over the dream during that minute you're in the bathroom, then start writing it down as soon as you get back to the bedroom. As you write you also remember more, and later, having practised, the fear of forgetting the dream goes away and you remember long sequences. In fact that's the value of writing your dreams down: the process of doing so enhances your ability to recall dreams, and this whole process blurs the boundaries of dreaming and waking conciousness. To this day I have a clearer recollection of dreams that I had during that period and wrote down, than I have of dreams I had earlier this week.