What constitutes Misogyny?

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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby brekin » Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:43 pm

brekin wrote:
Kudos to you for providing a personal real life example.
My 2 cents just because I had a similar job in the past. (Chimney Sweep)
First, this is probably the first time he has been to your house.
After getting his gear in the morning, talking to his boss, getting his
van ready etc, he heads out to your place. He probably gets lost and/or
has to deal with morning traffic. The whole time he is probably getting
calls or calling on his work cell phone about other jobs. It's early and maybe he
needs a cup of coffee,donut, or has to piss and stops off. Once he finds your place
he may not go in first. He may have to get your paperwork ready, find your
part, etc

People think nothing of having to wait to see a Doctor, or the tax man, or other
white collar professionals. A tradesman/service person though is assumed to be screwing around
and if he is late people automatically assume the worst. Twenty minutes late
for furnace guy is really not that bad. Once he shows up he is confronted with,
""You must be Ben. Can you tell me why you are late?"

I think if you arrived to your work 20 minutes late and your Boss said sans greeting,
blocking your entry:
"Canadian Watcher, can you tell me why you are late?" You would automatically
get defensive and resentful because you are not greeted and the person assumes
you don't have a good reason for being late.

As far as his comment, "What.. did your husband have to leave for work or something?"
he might have been assuming he inconvenienced someone
who was waiting for him that early. I doubt he'd want to escalate the situation and
it sounds like he was trying to make the situation work. Whereas it sounds like since you say
""I don't like people who are late," I say. "You were late. You're out."

You decided not to like him before you even met him and that was apparent on your first
encounter. He probably immediately, fairly or not, labeled you a "difficult person" which is totally
gender blind because he no doubts encounters that type of both genders. Him laughing I think
is the best he could do in that situation. I doubt he's fixing furnaces because it is the fulfillment
of all his dreams. It's early in the morning and he is what he believes (looks like erroneously) only
10 minutes late.



I don't buy it. I've been an employee and a small business owner and I have almost never been late. If I want a piss or a cup of coffee, or if I know it takes me ten minutes to get my truck ready, I budget time accordingly. This is not rocket science.

It is even possible to get up in time to make sure that one's children are feeling well and leave time to deal with it if they are not! (amazing, I know, but it's true!!)

With all that said, however -

THE POINT IS NOT that he was late. The point is how he reacted to the simple question; "Can you tell me why you were late?"

I didn't snark it at him. I was smiling. I was friendly. I was ready to accept any answer besides: "Because I couldn't give a shit about this job."

Think about it, if you showed up at work and your boss said, "Hey Bill, can you tell me why you were late today?" would you actually laugh in his face and say, "Seriously?"

would you?

More than that, if you were trying to grow your own business, would you think it prudent to laugh at your customers' concerns?

I mean really. This is basic human survival skills 101.


Not all jobs are that easy to schedule. How do you schedule fixing something you haven't seen? Just going to
people's houses adds unforeseeable problems. Do you think you would always be on time to your job if your commute was different every two hours? I think the thing is that not everyone subscribes to your idea of punctuality all the time. Half the jobs I had in the morning I was waking the people up. In their pajamas.

Maybe if was a combination of the disconnection between your smiling and your question because
honestly if someone "greeted" me with that I would probably laugh to. And I probably have laughed at a few of my bosses when they've ask me questions like that because they were probably later then I was most times.

Something to consider to is he is working out of economic necessity like most all of us. If he was a true equal
then his reaction would be that spontaneous or even more. He was treating you like an equal. You were expecting a baseline of deference which you thought was appropriate. He read your baseline as excessive or silly or assumed you were joking and gave you an honest response. He thinks he's there to fix your furnace in what he considers a reasonable amount of time. You think that he is required to report why he is twenty minutes late. I'd say he is more reasonable in this case. But that just my two cents...
If I knew all mysteries and all knowledge, and have not charity, I am nothing. St. Paul
I hang onto my prejudices, they are the testicles of my mind. Eric Hoffer
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Saurian Tail » Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:51 pm

CW-

Imagine if you had said: "Hi. You must have had a rough morning."

It takes a tremendous amount of self control and awareness _not_ to respond like he did. Give people a chance to share what is going on before putting them on the defensive. We are all human beings struggling to make our way in the world, right?

"A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger." - Proverbs 15:1

All the best,

-ST
"Taking it in its deepest sense, the shadow is the invisible saurian tail that man still drags behind him." -Carl Jung
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Canadian_watcher » Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:53 pm

brekin - hey, buddy, feel free to hire slackers for your home maintenance if you want. I'm not into it. mmmmkay?
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Canadian_watcher » Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:54 pm

Saurian Tail wrote:CW-

Imagine if you had said: "Hi. You must have had a rough morning."

It takes a tremendous amount of self control and awareness _not_ to respond like he did. Give people a chance to share what is going on before putting them on the defensive. We are all human beings struggling to make our way in the world, right?

"A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger." - Proverbs 15:1

All the best,

-ST


oh get over yourself.
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Saurian Tail » Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:56 pm

Canadian_watcher wrote:
Saurian Tail wrote:CW-

Imagine if you had said: "Hi. You must have had a rough morning."

It takes a tremendous amount of self control and awareness _not_ to respond like he did. Give people a chance to share what is going on before putting them on the defensive. We are all human beings struggling to make our way in the world, right?

"A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger." - Proverbs 15:1

All the best,

-ST


oh get over yourself.


LOL! Right back at you I guess?
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby charlie meadows » Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:57 pm

Saurian Tail wrote:
Canadian_watcher wrote:
Saurian Tail wrote:CW-

Imagine if you had said: "Hi. You must have had a rough morning."

It takes a tremendous amount of self control and awareness _not_ to respond like he did. Give people a chance to share what is going on before putting them on the defensive. We are all human beings struggling to make our way in the world, right?

"A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger." - Proverbs 15:1

All the best,

-ST


oh get over yourself.


LOL! Right back at you I guess?


"Trolling? Want a little of momma C-W's attention, do you?"

:)
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Canadian_watcher » Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:06 pm

Okay all you lovers of me,
Here's another real life experience:

I'm 19 years old and hot as the day is long.
It's the last Big Event of the Year at University, and I'm in a gown.
Someone has barfed all over the washroom on my residence floor, so I get in the elevator to go to another floor to use their can.
While on the elevator I speak with two guys whom I've never met.
They get off on a different floor than I do.
I go into the washroom.
I lock the stall door.
Thankfully, I'm in a dress, which is covering important parts because when I look up, I see one man on either side of me peering into the stall from above.
I tell them to fuck off.
They do.
Five seconds later the door is kicked in, and they are after me.
I try to run BUT MY FUCKING PANTYHOSE IS DOWN AND YOU CAN"T RUN OUT OF A STALL WITH TWO GUYS IN YOUR WAY.
They grab toilet paper and try to 'wipe me.'
I don't know what I said or what happened, but after a minute or two I DO get past them and run out, down the stairs, back to my own floor.
I burst through the stairwell door and lo! There is a man I know! He sees my face, doesn't say a word.
Behind me, through the door, come the two assailants.
The man I know - who happened to be a 6 foot 7 inch huge rugby player - beats them down.

Justice was never served, except for that beating. The university sent all manner of people to talk me out of pressing charges. It turns out that one of the men was the son of a judge, and he was almost finished law school.

He was made to apologize to me in writing. He did. I still have the one-line letter.

------

analyze that. let's see what you're made of.
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby charlie meadows » Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:10 pm

Is there some kind of connection between the two experiences?
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Canadian_watcher » Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:11 pm

charlie meadows wrote:Is there some kind of connection between the two experiences?


yeah - both of them happened to me.
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby charlie meadows » Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:13 pm

Canadian_watcher wrote:
charlie meadows wrote:Is there some kind of connection between the two experiences?


yeah - both of them happened to me.


You're better than that. Do better.
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Canadian_watcher » Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:14 pm

it's like a really fun afternoon of tennis!
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby brekin » Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:14 pm

Canadian Watcher wrote:

Okay all you lovers of me,
Here's another real life experience:

I'm 19 years old and hot as the day is long.
It's the last Big Event of the Year at University, and I'm in a gown.
Someone has barfed all over the washroom on my residence floor, so I get in the elevator to go to another floor to use their can.
While on the elevator I speak with two guys whom I've never met.
They get off on a different floor than I do.
I go into the washroom.
I lock the stall door.
Thankfully, I'm in a dress, which is covering important parts because when I look up, I see one man on either side of me peering into the stall from above.
I tell them to fuck off.
They do.
Five seconds later the door is kicked in, and they are after me.
I try to run BUT MY FUCKING PANTYHOSE IS DOWN AND YOU CAN"T RUN OUT OF A STALL WITH TWO GUYS IN YOUR WAY.
They grab toilet paper and try to 'wipe me.'
I don't know what I said or what happened, but after a minute or two I DO get past them and run out, down the stairs, back to my own floor.
I burst through the stairwell door and lo! There is a man I know! He sees my face, doesn't say a word.
Behind me, through the door, come the two assailants.
The man I know - who happened to be a 6 foot 7 inch huge rugby player - beats them down.

Justice was never served, except for that beating. The university sent all manner of people to talk me out of pressing charges. It turns out that one of the men was the son of a judge, and he was almost finished law school.

He was made to apologize to me in writing. He did. I still have the one-line letter.

------

analyze that. let's see what you're made of.


Look, that is horrific and I'm truly sorry that happened to you. Full stop.

In all earnestness I don't think you should be posting this right now in relation to this thread.
It doesn't have anything to do with what we were just talking about and I think you are posting
this out of place that isn't going to be good for anyone. I thinking sharing something like this in
this way just isn't what maybe could be good for you right now.

I'm less concerned about what others think or their reaction to this but where you are coming from right now
for your sake.
If I knew all mysteries and all knowledge, and have not charity, I am nothing. St. Paul
I hang onto my prejudices, they are the testicles of my mind. Eric Hoffer
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Canadian_watcher » Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:15 pm

charlie meadows wrote:
Canadian_watcher wrote:
charlie meadows wrote:Is there some kind of connection between the two experiences?


yeah - both of them happened to me.


You're better than that. Do better.


So are you. Follow thine own advice.
Make the first move, lead them to the conclusions they want to make. Expose them.
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Canadian_watcher » Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:16 pm

brekin wrote:Canadian Watcher wrote:

Okay all you lovers of me,
Here's another real life experience:

I'm 19 years old and hot as the day is long.
It's the last Big Event of the Year at University, and I'm in a gown.
Someone has barfed all over the washroom on my residence floor, so I get in the elevator to go to another floor to use their can.
While on the elevator I speak with two guys whom I've never met.
They get off on a different floor than I do.
I go into the washroom.
I lock the stall door.
Thankfully, I'm in a dress, which is covering important parts because when I look up, I see one man on either side of me peering into the stall from above.
I tell them to fuck off.
They do.
Five seconds later the door is kicked in, and they are after me.
I try to run BUT MY FUCKING PANTYHOSE IS DOWN AND YOU CAN"T RUN OUT OF A STALL WITH TWO GUYS IN YOUR WAY.
They grab toilet paper and try to 'wipe me.'
I don't know what I said or what happened, but after a minute or two I DO get past them and run out, down the stairs, back to my own floor.
I burst through the stairwell door and lo! There is a man I know! He sees my face, doesn't say a word.
Behind me, through the door, come the two assailants.
The man I know - who happened to be a 6 foot 7 inch huge rugby player - beats them down.

Justice was never served, except for that beating. The university sent all manner of people to talk me out of pressing charges. It turns out that one of the men was the son of a judge, and he was almost finished law school.

He was made to apologize to me in writing. He did. I still have the one-line letter.

------

analyze that. let's see what you're made of.


Look, that is horrific and I'm truly sorry that happened to you. Full stop.

In all earnestness I don't think you should be posting this right now in relation to this thread.
It doesn't have anything to do with what we were just talking about and I think you are posting
this out of place that isn't going to be good for anyone. I thinking sharing something like this in
this way just isn't what maybe could be good for you right now.

I'm less concerned about what others think or their reaction to this but where you are coming from right now
for your sake.


This is the reality of the world women live in. We can't just not have these experiences with us when we meet people who laugh in our faces at the door. We can't.
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby norton ash » Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:21 pm

That's terrible, and I hate and mourn that you and other women have experienced such trauma and horror.

But the sword of righteousness is not for everyday use, or for swatting bugs. That's why relating personal experiences here is such a fraught thing, y'know.
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