The Limits of Science

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Re: The Limits of Science

Postby Belligerent Savant » Tue May 23, 2023 6:37 pm

.
DrEvil » Tue May 23, 2023 4:31 pm wrote:
drstrangelove » Mon May 22, 2023 8:48 am wrote:yes, you have an issue with the institutionalization of religion, as do i the issue we face at the moment is the institutionalization of science however.


Yes. Power corrupts etc., doesn't really matter what area of life it happens in - people can suck whether they're wearing vestments or lab coats. But I will maintain that, on a general basis, science beats religion simply because it gives us tangible results, like the ability to have this argument across oceans in near real-time. Our current standard of living didn't come about through faith alone.

I also think that if more people acknowledged the possibility that this one life is what we get they might expend a little more energy towards making it a good one.


Well, it can be argued that the marvels of the internet have their perils as well (e.g., increased potential for tribalism, echo chambers, atomization, lack of real-world human interactions, etc). It can be further argued that certain adherents of a given religion, lived honestly and not based on hate, can and does lead to a measure of peace/bliss.

Double-edged swords.

Who’s to say which is better, objectively?

(Increasingly I yearn for an EMP to bring/force us back to simpler times. But of course that would bring massive calamity as well. Perhaps a better way to phrase it is i find myself more relaxed and in relatively good spirits when away from tech/wifi, outdoors in direct sunlight and light breezes. That said, I'm typing this now while outside with sunlight on my face; the irony is not lost on me. But still, I am growing to disdain this tech, incrementally)

The notion of an afterlife is also not nearly as ‘settled’, even scientifically, as alluded in your comment above. Same with the nature of consciousness, which is tied to any notion of persistence beyond this mortal/earthly reality.

I remain largely agnostic on the points above — I know only that nothing can be stated with certainty at this time, at least with respect to the topics mentioned here in this post.
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Re: The Limits of Science

Postby DrEvil » Tue May 23, 2023 8:31 pm

I have the occasional yearning for an EMP too, but then I try to take a step back and look at what would really happen in that scenario, and, as you say, it ain't pretty (my gaming rig would be fried!).

What I want, put very simply, is to live in a society where everyone can say what they want, do what they want, be who they want and get what they want. Do you want to spend your time doing amateur theater? You should be able to, without having to worry about rent, food, medical care or creature comforts. Do you want to sit on your ass and game all day? Same thing applies. Do you want to spend your time slaving away in an office? Go ahead, but you shouldn't have to.

I don't see that happening without science and progress. We have enough to more or less do it now, but without changing human nature it's not gonna happen (yes, spiritual beliefs, in the broadest possible sense of the term, can probably help us get some of the way there), so we need to get to a point where the abundance is so obvious that hardly anyone takes issue with everyone getting their fill, regardless of contribution. As Iain M. Banks put it: money implies poverty. I'm just not sure how to get there peacefully with all the capitalist fucks and assorted vested interests standing in the way.

As for the afterlife or persistence beyond this realm or whatever you want to call it, my position is that there's little to no evidence to support it, and the only way to really find out is to die, so I go on the assumption that this is it. You get one shot at life, the end. Anything else is a pleasant surprise (hopefully. Everyone seems to assume that, excepting Hell, the afterlife is nice. Has anyone checked?), but I'm not counting on it.
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Re: The Limits of Science

Postby Belligerent Savant » Tue May 23, 2023 9:48 pm

Re: "afterlife" -- a couple of threads on the topic from the RI archives.

From page 67 of the 'Questioning Consciousness' thread:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=15948&hilit=Afterlife&start=990


And from page 2 of 'Hint of life after death in scientific study':
Belligerent Savant » Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:43 pm wrote:...

You raise sound points Re: religion/spirituality, DrEvil [as did the other contributors on this page]. I happen to believe there are phenomenon that can't currently be explained by 'chemical reactions' alone. The nature of consciousness -- and the nature of 'outer space' -- remain relatively unknown territory; it's premature to render a confident declaration on what may actually be going on out/in there.

...

Side-note, Re: nature of consciousness:

https://www.wired.com/2013/04/conscious ... ter-death/

Excerpt:

Wired: One of the first after-death accounts in your book involves Joe Tiralosi, who was resuscitated 40 minutes after his heart stopped. Can you tell me more about him?

Sam Parnia: [...]

When Tiralosi woke up, he told nurses that he had a profound experience and wanted to talk about it. That’s how we met. He told me that he felt incredibly peaceful, and saw this perfect being, full of love and compassion. This is not uncommon.

People tend to interpret what they see based on their background: A Hindu describes a Hindu god, an atheist doesn’t see a Hindu god or a Christian god, but some being. Different cultures see the same thing, but their interpretation depends on what they believe.

Wired: What can we learn from the fact that people report seeing the same thing?

Parnia: At the very least, it tells us that there’s this unique experience that humans have when they go through death. It’s universal. It’s described by children as young as three. And it tells us that we should not be afraid of death.

Wired: Couldn’t the experiences just reflect some extremely subtle type of brain activity?

Parnia: When you die, there’s no blood flow going into your brain. If it goes below a certain level, you can’t have electrical activity. It takes a lot of imagination to think there’s somehow a hidden area of your brain that comes into action when everything else isn’t working.

These observations raise a question about our current concept of how brain and mind interact. The historical idea is that electrochemical processes in the brain lead to consciousness. That may no longer be correct, because we can demonstrate that those processes don’t go on after death.

There may be something in the brain we haven’t discovered that accounts for consciousness, or it may be that consciousness is a separate entity from the brain.

Wired: This seems to verge on supernatural explanations of consciousness.

Parnia: Throughout history, we try to explain things the best we can with the tools of science. But most open-minded and objective scientists recognize that we have limitations. Just because something is inexplicable with our current science doesn’t make it superstitious or wrong. When people discovered electromagnetism, forces that couldn’t then be seen or measured, a lot of scientists made fun of it.

Scientists have come to believe that the self is brain cell processes, but there’s never been an experiment to show how cells in the brain could possibly lead to human thought. If you look at a brain cell under a microscope, and I tell you, “this brain cell thinks I’m hungry,” that’s impossible.

It could be that, like electromagnetism, the human psyche and consciousness are a very subtle type of force that interacts with the brain, but are not necessarily produced by the brain. The jury is still out.

Wired: But what about all the fMRI brain imaging studies of thoughts and feelings? Or experiments in which scientists can tell what someone is seeing, or what they’re dreaming, by looking at brain activity?

Parnia: All the evidence we have shows an association between certain parts of the brain and certain mental processes. But it’s a chicken and egg question: Does cellular activity produce the mind, or does the mind produce cellular activity?

Some people have tried to conclude that what we observe indicates that cells produce thought: here’s a picture of depression, here’s a picture of happiness. But this is simply an association, not a causation. If you accept that theory, there should be no reports of people hearing or seeing things after activity in their brain has stopped. If people can have consciousness, maybe that raises the possibility that our theories are premature.
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Re: The Limits of Science

Postby DrEvil » Fri May 26, 2023 7:14 pm

Fascinating stuff for sure, but I have a small issue with this:

Wired: Couldn’t the experiences just reflect some extremely subtle type of brain activity?

Parnia: When you die, there’s no blood flow going into your brain. If it goes below a certain level, you can’t have electrical activity. It takes a lot of imagination to think there’s somehow a hidden area of your brain that comes into action when everything else isn’t working.


Couldn't that just be him remembering something that happened in his brain at the moment of death, and not something that happened while he was dead? From his point of view the time from death to waking up again would be instantaneous, so the memory would feel like it just happened.
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Re: The Limits of Science

Postby Belligerent Savant » Sat May 27, 2023 1:11 pm

.
It is possible.

A single moment can be stretched to appear to be far longer in duration depending on one's perspective and state of consciousness. Perhaps 'eternity' may be a few seconds in duration prior to that final 'wink out', but to the person experiencing it, it may seem far longer. I will touch on these concepts in the consciousness thread as it reminds me of an author I need to re-read.

I have the book by Parnia referenced above but it's been a while since I've read it -- will need to give it a 2nd read to see if it happens to touch on this topic.
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Re: The Limits of Science

Postby Belligerent Savant » Sun May 28, 2023 12:01 pm

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Re: The Limits of Science

Postby stickdog99 » Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:01 pm

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Re: The Limits of Science

Postby stickdog99 » Thu Jun 22, 2023 7:44 pm

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Re: The Limits of Science

Postby Belligerent Savant » Fri Jun 30, 2023 1:09 pm

.

Another reason "AI" is a gross misnomer.

Belligerent Savant » Fri Jun 30, 2023 12:09 pm wrote:https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-023-02120-8

NEWS
24 June 2023

Decades-long bet on consciousness ends — and it’s philosopher 1, neuroscientist 0

Christof Koch wagered David Chalmers 25 years ago that researchers would learn how the brain achieves consciousness by now. But the quest continues.


A 25-year science wager has come to an end. In 1998, neuroscientist Christof Koch bet philosopher David Chalmers that the mechanism by which the brain’s neurons produce consciousness would be discovered by 2023. Both scientists agreed publicly on 23 June, at the annual meeting of the Association for the Scientific Study of Consciousness (ASSC) in New York City, that it is an ongoing quest — and declared Chalmers the winner.

What ultimately helped to settle the bet was a study testing two leading hypotheses about the neural basis of consciousness, whose findings were unveiled at the conference.

“It was always a relatively good bet for me and a bold bet for Christof,” says Chalmers, who is now co-director of the Center for Mind, Brain and Consciousness at New York University. But he also says this isn’t the end of the story, and that an answer will come eventually: “There’s been a lot of progress in the field.”

The great wager

Consciousness is everything that a person experiences — what they taste, hear, feel and more. It is what gives meaning and value to our lives, Chalmers says.

Despite a vast effort, researchers still don’t understand how our brains produce it, however. “It started off as a very big philosophical mystery,” Chalmers adds. “But over the years, it’s gradually been transmuting into, if not a ‘scientific’ mystery, at least one that we can get a partial grip on scientifically.”

Koch, who holds the title of meritorious investigator at the Allen Institute for Brain Science in Seattle, Washington, began his search for the neural footprints of consciousness in the 1980s. Since then, he has been invested in identifying “the bits and pieces of the brain that are really essential — really necessary to ultimately generate a feeling of seeing or hearing or wanting”, as he puts it.

At the time Koch proposed the bet, certain technological advancements made him optimistic about solving the mystery sooner rather than later. Functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI), which measures small changes in blood flow that occur with brain activity, was taking laboratories by storm. And optogenetics — which allowed scientists to stimulate specific sets of neurons in the brains of animals such as nonhuman primates — had come on the scene. Koch was a young assistant professor at the California Institute of Technology in Pasadena at the time. “I was very taken by all these techniques,” he says. “I thought: 25 years from now? No problem.”

Adversarial collaboration

For many years, the bet was mostly forgotten. Then, a few years ago, it was resurfaced by Per Snaprud, a science journalist based in Stockholm who had interviewed Chalmers back in 1998. His recording of the chat reminded Chalmers and Koch of the terms they had set in the wager — and of the case of wine that was at stake.

Around that time, both researchers had become involved in a large project supported by the Templeton World Charity Foundation, based in Nassau, the Bahamas, that aimed to accelerate research on consciousness.

The goal was to set up a series of ‘adversarial’ experiments to test various hypotheses of consciousness by getting rival researchers to collaborate on the studies’ design. “If their predictions didn’t come true, this would be a serious challenge for their theories,” Chalmers says.

The findings from one of the experiments — which involved several researchers, including Koch and Chalmers — were revealed on Friday at the ASSC meeting. It tested two of the leading hypotheses: integrated information theory (IIT) and global network workspace theory (GNWT). IIT proposes that consciousness is a ‘structure’ in the brain formed by a specific type of neuronal connectivity that is active for as long as a certain experience, such as looking at an image, is occurring. This structure is thought to be found in the posterior cortex, at the back of the brain. GNWT, by contrast, suggests that consciousness arises when information is broadcast to areas of the brain through an interconnected network. The transmission, according to the theory, happens at the beginning and end of an experience and involves the prefrontal cortex, at the front of the brain.

Six independent laboratories conducted the adversarial experiment, following a preregistered protocol and using various complementary methods to measure brain activity. The results — which haven’t yet been peer reviewed — didn’t perfectly match either of the theories.

“This tells us that both theories need to be revised,” says Lucia Melloni, a neuroscientist at the Max Planck Institute for Empirical Aesthetics in Frankfurt, Germany, and one of the researchers involved. But “the extent of that revision is slightly different for each theory”.

Unfulfilled predictions

“With respect to IIT, what we observed is that, indeed, areas in the posterior cortex do contain information in a sustained manner,” Melloni says, adding that the finding seems to suggest that the ‘structure’ postulated by the theory is being observed. But the researchers didn’t find evidence of sustained synchronization between areas of the brain, as had been predicted.

In terms of GNWT, the researchers found that some aspects of consciousness, but not all of them, could be identified in the prefrontal cortex. Furthermore, the experiments found evidence of the broadcasting postulated by advocates of the theory, but only at the beginning of an experience — not also at the end, as had been predicted.

So GNWT fared a bit worse than IIT during the experiment. “But that doesn’t mean that IIT is true and GNWT isn’t,” Melloni says. What it means is that proponents need to rethink the mechanisms they proposed in light of the new evidence.

Other experiments are under way. As part of the Templeton foundation’s initiative, Koch is involved in a study testing IIT and GNWT in the brains of animal models. And Chalmers is working on another project evaluating two other hypotheses of consciousness.

It’s rare to have proponents of competing theories come together at the table and be open to having their predictions tested by independent researchers, Melloni says. “That took a lot of courage and trust from them.” She thinks that projects such as these are essential for the advancement of science.

As for the bet, Koch was reluctant to admit defeat but, the day before the ASSC session, he bought a case of fine Portuguese wine to honour his commitment. Would he consider another wager? “I’d double down,” he says. “Twenty-five years from now is realistic, because the techniques are getting better and, you know, I can’t wait much longer than 25 years, given my age.”

doi: https://doi.org/10.1038/d41586-023-02120-8
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Re: The Limits of Science

Postby DrEvil » Fri Jun 30, 2023 3:01 pm

Another reason "AI" is a gross misnomer.


For current applications of the term I agree (with the caveat that we don't really know what consciousness is yet, so we can't really know if something like ChatGPT has a spark of consciousness every time it's spun up. I don't think it does, but I don't know that for a fact), but looking at the two competing theories in the article, they both seem to involve data structures communicating in a networked space, so I can't see any good reason why, in theory at least, something similar can't at some point be replicated with software/hardware. That's assuming consciousness turns out to be some variety of or similar to the current theories of course.
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Re: The Limits of Science

Postby Belligerent Savant » Fri Jul 07, 2023 10:50 am

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Yes, though my current thinking on this -- or rather, a series of thoughts that have been incrementally evolving over time -- is that there will never be a way to 'transfer' consciousness to an inanimate (or mechanical/synthetic) object, certainly not in the manner contemplated by certain adherents of contemporary 'transhumanism'.

The best scenario, potentially -- and this is already being done in some respects, with all the 'data' shared of a given human/user's activities online -- is to utilize a form of AI/LLM to ingest historical electronic videos, recordings, electronic writings, etc, and leverage programs/algorithms to predict or mimic how a specific human may respond to prompts based on the available data, with the added ability to 'learn'; this will mimic certain or perhaps most mannerisms of a living human, but it will not be human, and will certainly not be that human's "soul" or consciousness, though it may eventually fool many to believe otherwise. Even if they somehow figure out a way to make a "copy" of information/memories stored in a human brain (though I don't believe memories or unique identity are physically stored in the brain like a hard drive, at least not entirely), it would only be a copy of that human. Technology will never be able to achieve true 'immortality' or consciousness.

"AI" (or LLMs, etc.) are programs that receive information and quickly run through a series of commands (elaborate forms of 'if x then y' statements) built into the code, with the added benefit of developing algorithms that can 'train' models to 'learn'. Again: it's all programmatic, not sentient. It can mimic sentience, perhaps, but mimicry can only be as 'real' as CGI.

I also lean towards the notion that consciousness is tied to 'spirit' ('soul', etc), and is non-fungible (to borrow a currently popular concept tied to certain digital assets), and at least to some core degree, exists -- and persists -- beyond the boundaries of the physical brain and body.* No way to 'prove' any of this, of course.

*caveat: historical/ancestral information, genetic code, perhaps even certain memory info is passed along across generations via DNA/genetic transference that occurs when giving birth. Human attempts to replicate this artificially will never match the quality or the fidelity.
-----

Unrelated to the above topic, the below link and video can apply to several other threads here and is a very good overview of the capture of our medical/pharma industries, and of course is very applicable for how 'studies' have been prone to bias over the last ~3yrs (and historically). The video is from 2018 so it doesn't explicitly focus on vaccines but of course it applies to vaccine products as well (particularly given the liability shields in place for vaccines).

https://rosemarycottageclinic.co.uk/blo ... l-science/

DR JASON FUNG ON THE CORRUPTION IN MEDICAL SCIENCE
December 5, 2019

by Afifah Hamilton

Well-known nephrologist and author Dr. Jason Fung is an orthodox medic who has become wary of scientific research that purports to be “evidence based.” Fung has spoken extensively about Type-2 diabetes reversal and the metabolic effects of intermittent fasting, but in this presentation (Dec. 2018), he focuses on the many ways that medical research and the system that flows from it has become corrupted.

This is worth watching all the way through! (49 minutes long), but here is a timeline of the talk if you are impatient!



Screenshots from the ~29 minute mark:
Image
Image

00:00 Financial conflict of interest
03:20 Influence of alcohol industry
05:00 Doctors receiving payments from industry
06:00 How gifts affect doctors but they don’t realise it
07:54 How free conferences affect prescribing
09:20 The more prestigious a doctor the more money they are given by pharmaceutical companies
10:50 Doctors advising the FDA receive $100,000’s of industry payouts
11:50 Drs (like Malcolm Kendrick) who try and point out the corruption are being shut down
12:30 Statin advice underpinned by corrupt science
13:15 No effect when France stopped statins
14:50 Fructose research corruption
15:50 Sugar industry funding biases research
18:257 ways the industry corrupts research
19:45 Corruption of the medical journals
20:20 Industry payments to journal editors – $100,000+
20:38 Drug companies publishing drug reviews
25:18 Reprint income
26:35 Rosiglitazone — doctor bias
27:20 Evidence based medicine is so corrupt as to be useless or harmful
28:15 Publication bias — the bias in favour of antidepressants (28:15)
30:20 Publication bias — Neurodegenerative disease
31:00 Multiple publication of positive studies
32:45 Selective publication of positive studies
33:50 Changes in study bias pre and post 2000
35:30 Bias in guidelines — PSA screening recommendations
37:30 Bias in guidelines — antidepressants
38:40 Bias affects the standard of practise
39:05 Failure of clinical practice guidelines
39:55 The current state of evidence based medicine
42:00 The opioid crisis — “If you are in pain you can’t get addicted”
42:50 Riding the Gravy Train leads to people dying
43:45 We wouldn’t accept this if it were the police or judiciary that were accepting bribes. Why do we allow it from doctors?
46:05 The solution — make the receipt of bribes illegal for doctors, like it is for teachers, judges and policemen

Excerpts from the video
94% of doctors receive gifts from the pharmaceutical industry.
95% of doctors think their judgement is unaffected by financial receipts from the industry.
The current state of evidence based medicine

Selective Publication
Rigged Outcomes
Advertorials as ‘Best Practice’
Reprint Revenues
Bribery of Journal Editors
Financial Conflicts of Interest

“You thought doctors taught at prestigious institutions for the good of mankind. That might have been why they went there in the first place, but they stayed for the money.” Dr Jason Fung


“There’s a clear correlation: The more prestigious a doctor, the more money they’re getting from the pharmaceuticals.”
Dr Jason Fung


“We wouldn’t accept this if it were the police or judiciary that were taking bribes. Why do we accept it from doctors?.”
Dr Jason Fung

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Re: The Limits of Science

Postby DrEvil » Fri Jul 07, 2023 6:34 pm

Just a minor quibble:

Again: it's all programmatic, not sentient. It can mimic sentience, perhaps, but mimicry can only be as 'real' as CGI.


Current AI's learn in a similar way to us: feed them a ton of examples and they're eventually able to come up with a coherent answer. It's just fancy pattern matching. We're way better at it (too good by some measures. Pareidolia has some things to answer for), and can do all sorts of inferences and generalizations an AI isn't capable of yet, but it's all programmatic - signals bouncing around our brains. If our sentience is a product of the reinforcement learning of our brains, why can't a machine become sentient? That's assuming we're sentient at all, and not just delusional feedback loops pretending to be in charge because it makes us feel special. Maybe that's what sentience is: biological narcissism.

As for reality vs. CGI, I think the distinction isn't as clear-cut as that. Your experience of reality is just a simulation running in your head. You don't perceive actual reality, only the various signals that come to you from reality, which you then process and interpret, creating a model that's very much limited and custom-built to your specific needs, both as an individual and a member of the human species. None of it is "real", it's just second-hand information that you use to hallucinate a very limited version of reality. Natural CGI if you will.

All the above is obviously based off my assumption that we don't have a soul or spirit that's separate from us in some way, only signals bouncing around inside our sensor pods.
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Re: The Limits of Science

Postby Belligerent Savant » Wed Jul 19, 2023 8:32 pm

.
Missed the above reply earlier. I may add further thoughts at a later time, but can appreciate the perspective you present here. I happen to believe we are more than 'conscious meat puppets', and as such, increasingly feel that it's far more multi-layered, complex, & with elements of design, though perhaps not entirely in ways currently theorized (as examples, my current thinking is not in standard alignment with any organized religion, nor do I fully subscribe to theories such as this: https://runesoup.com/2016/05/solving-pr ... film-ever/, though there may be elements in these sources that have validity or viability). This is my position at the moment; there was a time when I went through a phase where I leaned more heavily on the 'atheism' spectrum with respect to origins of life. I've since shifted a number of times.

----

I returned to this thread, however, to post the following:

Mike Donio, MS
@MikeDonio
·
Ya know there was an epidemiologist from Stanford who wrote an essay that went viral about this very issue.

Kind of ironic, no?

If you aren’t familiar look into John Ioannidis and his essay, “Why Most Published Research Findings are False”.

@disclosetv

JUST IN - Stanford University president resigns following concerns about his research and papers.


https://twitter.com/MikeDonio/status/16 ... 38241?s=20


Canadian-born president of Stanford University resigns over ‘serious flaws’ in his research | CBC News

The president of Stanford University said Wednesday he would resign, citing an independent review that cleared him of research misconduct but found “serious flaws” in five scientific papers on subjects such as brain development in which he was the principal author.

Marc Tessier-Lavigne — who was born in Trenton, Ont. — said in a statement to students and staff that he would step down Aug. 31.

The resignation comes after the board of trustees launched a review in December following allegations he engaged in fraud and other unethical conduct related to research and papers that are in some cases two decades old.

Tessier-Lavigne, a neuroscientist, says he “never submitted a scientific paper without firmly believing that the data were correct and accurately presented.” But he says he should have been more diligent in seeking corrections regarding his work and he should have operated laboratories with tighter controls.

Panelists found multiple instances of manipulated data in the 12 papers they investigated, but concluded he was not responsible for the misconduct. Still, they found that each of the five papers in which he was principal author “has serious flaws in the presentation of research data” and in at least four of them, there was apparent manipulation of data by others.

https://theglobalnewswave.com/2023/07/2 ... 87b8a6ba62
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Re: The Limits of Science

Postby Belligerent Savant » Sun Mar 24, 2024 9:45 pm

Cross-post.

Belligerent Savant » Sun Mar 24, 2024 9:57 pm wrote:Related musings -- from Horsley's Big Mother.

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Re: The Limits of Science

Postby Belligerent Savant » Tue Apr 09, 2024 4:45 pm

.
Modern Day "Science", AKA "THE SCIENCE". Captured and Compromised. Years after it's been released to the public, shown to be ineffective. Shocker.

@DACDAC4DAC

On April 3, and with no fanfare, Pfizer published its Phase 2/3 clinical data on the effectiveness of Paxlovid. This paper is a damning indictment of the FDA and the use of EUAs during the covid panic.

Let's look at the data.

Image

...this is a double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled trial. It randomized both vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals who were at standard risk and high risk. Patients were randomly assigned Paxlovid. Diaries were used to track patients (this is common practice).

What did the trials uncover? That Paxlovid did nothing. At all. The mean time to elevation of symptoms was 13.8 compared to 14.1 for placebo. The median time was 12 (11-13) compared to 13 (12-14). The p-value was 0.60.

Image

What does that p-value mean? It means that the null hypothesis that there was no difference between Paxlovid and placebo could not be rejected. In fact, it wasn't close. There was no difference between Paxlovid and placebo regarding the primary endpoint - symptom alleviation.

But what about progression to hospitalization and death? You know, how Paxlovid is marketed to patients and doctors. Paxlovid was NOT significantly better than placebo. Not even close.

"In a planned subgroup analysis involving high-risk participants, hospitalization or death occurred in 3 (0.9%) in the [Paxlovid] group and 7 (2.2%) in the placebo group (difference, −1.3 percentage points; 95% CI, −3.3 to 0.7)."

Again, it was not close to being significant.

How did the authors get around this problem? Let them tell you. "The results with respect to the numbers of Covid-19–related hospitalizations and deaths from any cause in this trial, although not significant, are consistent with and supported by recent real-world data."

Got that? Post-marketed results backfilled a drug that FAILED during clinical trials. Paxlovid failed to meet either its primary clinical endpoint or its secondary clinical endpoint. For any drug, this should have been the end.

This paper is an indictment of the FDA. The agency tasked with protecting patients and making sure that safe and effective drugs reach patients failed miserably.

It is also an indictment of the medical community. They should have reviewed the data or requested it.


https://x.com/DACDAC4DAC/status/1777688883150377226
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