Gender testing for track star

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Gender testing for track star

Postby mentalgongfu2 » Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:32 am

This sounds interesting.
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South African teen wins 800 amid gender-test flap

By RYAN LUCAS, Associated Press Writer 7 hours, 10 minutes ago

BERLIN (AP)—Facing questions about her gender, South African teenager Caster Semenya easily won the 800-meter gold medal Wednesday at the world championships.

Her dominating run came on the same day track and field’s ruling body said she was undergoing a gender test because of concerns she does not meet requirements to compete as a woman.

Semenya took the lead at the halfway mark and opened a commanding lead in the last 400 meters to win by a massive 2.45 seconds in a world-leading 1 minute, 55.45 seconds. Defending champion Janeth Jepkosgei was second and Jennifer Meadows of Britain was third in 1:57.93.

After crossing the line, Semenya dusted her shoulders with her hands. Semenya did not speak to reporters after the race or attend a news conference.
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About three weeks ago, the international federation asked South African track and field authorities to conduct the verification test. Semenya had burst onto the scene by posting a world-leading time of 1:56.72 at the African junior championships in Maruitius.

Her dramatic improvement in times, muscular build and deep voice sparked speculation about her gender. Ideally, any dispute surrounding an athlete is dealt with before a major competition. But Semenya’s stunning rise from unknown teenage runner to the favorite in the 800 happened almost overnight. That meant the gender test—which takes several weeks—could not be completed in time.

Before the race, IAAF spokesman Nick Davies stressed this is a “medical issue, not an issue of cheating.” He said the “extremely complex” testing has begun. The process requires a physical medical evaluation and includes reports from a gynecologist, endocrinologist, psychologist, internal medicine specialist and gender expert.

South Africa team manager Phiwe Mlangeni-Tsholetsane would not confirm or deny that Semenya was having such a test.

“We entered Caster as a woman and we want to keep it that way,” Mlangeni-Tsholetsane said. “Our conscience is clear in terms of Caster. We have no reservations at all about that.”

Although medals will be awarded for the 800, the race remains under a cloud until the investigation is closed, and Semenya could be stripped of the gold depending on the test results, IAAF general secretary Pierre Weiss said.

“But today there is no proof and the benefit of doubt must always be in favor of the athlete,” Weiss said.

Semenya’s rivals said they tried not to dwell on the issue before the race.

“I’ve heard a lot of speculation, but all I could do was just keep a level head and go about my business,” Meadows said. “If none of it’s true, I feel very sorry for her.”

One thing not in doubt was Semenya’s outstanding run.

“Nobody else in the world can do that sort of time at the moment,” Meadows said. “She obviously took the race by storm.”

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Postby Penguin » Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:01 am

To be fair, none of those other ladies have much in the way of boobs either.

What about transgendered people, or people born hermaphrodite then..
Or inborn hormone balance differences..
Will she get a free dick if they find out shes a he?

(all in serious respect, I know a few transgendered persons - competitive money sports, I dont respect as much)

Perhaps they should also test Usain Bolt for alien genes?
Or something like this -

http://focus.hms.harvard.edu/2006/10270 ... arch.shtml

A molecule better known for turbo-charging muscles and burning fat also appears to protect mouse brains from disease and dysfunction, according to independent papers by HMS researchers.

The molecule goes by the unwieldy name of peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor gamma (PPAR gamma) coactivator 1 alpha, or PGC-1 alpha for short. Its complex actions can be summed up more simply: PGC-1 alpha revs up the number and activity of mitochondria when tissues need a boost.

In mouse brains, the molecule that powers up mitochondria, PGC-1 alpha, also cleans up the toxic emissions from the cellular on-demand energy system, says a new paper from researchers in the lab of Bruce Spiegelman.

Mitochondria suck up about 90 percent of the oxygen from every breath to power each cell in the body. PGC-1 alpha enables the on-demand energy system in different cells to adapt quickly and specifically to the changing demands of life. As director of mitochondrial function, PGC-1 alpha (and its close relative PGC-1 beta) delivers stamina to exercising muscles and releases life-sustaining glucose from liver cells in fasting bodies.

Ever since PGC-1 alpha and its crucial role in mitochondrial biogenesis and respiration were first identified in the lab of Bruce Spiegelman, HMS professor of cell biology at Dana–Farber Cancer Institute, many researchers have been dreaming of ways to selectively rev up the protein in fat-burning tissues to fight obesity and its health consequences.


More on topic -

http://vancouver.metblogs.com/2006/08/0 ... in-biking/

The strange story of Michelle Dumaresq bubbled up to the front page of the Vancouver Sun Tuesday.

You see, Ms. Dumaresq won the Canadian women’s downhill mountain bike championship race in Whistler on July 22nd. No surprise there: this was her third such title. What catapulted this story to the front page was the shirt the second-place finisher wore on the podium. It sported the hand-lettered message: “100% Pure Woman Champ 2006.”

And therein, as the cliche goes, lies a tale. You see, Michelle Dumaresq is a very big woman. And she was not a woman born.

Downhill mountain biking probably doesn’t need much of an explanation to the outdoorsy Vancouverites among you. For everyone else, here’s the short version: you take a heavy, long-travel-suspension mountain bike, and pedal it downhill, usually over very technical obstacles at quite astonishing speeds. Success requires good technique, raw strength, the conditioning to survive an event that is short but physically demanding, and explosive power.

At 6′1″, 180 pounds, Ms. Dumaresq towers over most of her competition. Man or woman, she would be a big, strong competitor.

But should she be competing against the women?

Ms. Dumaresq makes some compelling points: as a result of her transformation, she’s producing womanly amounts of testosterone, if any. She’s several years out of surgery, and she didn’t even race before she became a woman.

But once she started, her success was nearly instantaneous: in her first race ever, she not only won the Beginner class she was entered in, she was faster than any of the Pro women. Her winning ways continued from there.

Her progress through the women’s pro scene has not been without controversy: for some reason, most of the other women competing don’t much like being beaten by her.

But then they wouldn’t, would they?

I don’t blame them. There’s a couple of problems with Michelle Dumaresq’s current situation. One is that while she claims to have lost about 30 pounds as part of her transition to female, that still leaves her taller and heavier than almost any woman she competes against, in a discipline where strength matters.

The sceond physiological problem is more subtle. Though Ms. Dumaresq has never competed as a man, she started riding bicycles seriously at age 11, and has been riding mountain bikes for 15 years, which means she spent a lot of time on a bike even before she became a woman.

A coach I know made an analogy between Ms. Dumaresq and an athlete who dopes illegally for years, then cleans up their act: even though they are clean now, they still have an advantage from the years of “super-training” they were able to do*.

I am NOT accusing Michelle Dumaresq of any sort of doping here. She has never taken a sporting advantage that the governing bodies of cycling didn’t allow her to take. If I would blame anyone for the present situation, it would be various cycling bodies (the Canadian Cycling Association, and to a lesser extent the International Cyclist’s Union) who decided to let her compete against women.


Personally, I am more in favour of introducing rather more genders in addition to just male and female, instead of forcing people into male or female. Couldn't hurt anyone.

Or in competitive sports, heigt/weight or strength classes instead of strict male / female. But hey, Im a dreamer.
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Postby Penguin » Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:18 am

http://www.womenssportsfoundation.org/C ... Teams.aspx

The inclusion of transgender athletes is one of the latest equality challenges for sport governing organizations worldwide. No sport organization prior to 2003 had any policy at all governing the participation of transgender athletes. Historically, the International Olympic Committee's sex verification policy was focused on preventing male competitors from participating in female events. As a reaction to this concern, sex verification tests for female (but not male) athletes began in 1968. Mandatory sex verification testing was discontinued in 1999 as sports authorities struggled unsuccessfully to develop reasonable and medically sound tests that were fairly administered and interpreted in the face of mounting social, medical and legal objections to the tests. Sex verification testing is still permitted on a case by case basis.

The International Olympic Committee became the first mainstream sport governing body to develop a policy governing the participation of transgender athletes in the Olympic Games. This policy, known as the Stockholm Consensus, became effective at the 2004 Games in Athens, Greece. Based on a report and recommendations from a committee of medical doctors, the IOC policy includes a list of three criteria for approval of transsexual athlete participation.

Since the IOC policy went into effect, the Ladies Golf Union (Great Britain), the Ladies European Golf Tour, Women's Golf Australia, the United States Golf Association, USA Track and Field, and the Gay and Lesbian International Sports Association have created policies governing transgender athlete participation in events sponsored by their organizations. In addition, the Women's Sports Foundation, United Kingdom and the United States-based Women's Sports Foundation issued policy statements supporting the inclusion of transgender athletes in sport.

Most of these organizations have used the IOC standards as a guide for the development of their policies. In contrast, the National Collegiate Athletic Association requires that athletes compete in the gender designated on their official government documents, for example, driver's license, birth certificate or passport (This policy is currently under review). To date, no high school governing bodies have announced policies addressing the participation of transgender athletes. However, it is clear that the issue of transgender athlete eligibility to participate in school-based sports will need to be addressed in the near future. Each of these early attempts at developing policy governing the participation of transgender athletes is problematic in different ways. As sports governing organizations continue to better understand and address issues of transgender discrimination and competitive equity for all competitors, we can expect better and more consistent policies to emerge.

The goals for all sport organizations developing policies governing transgender athlete participation should be to identify ways to ensure fair competition for all participants and avoid discrimination against transgender athletes without invading the privacy of athletes who transition to a new gender. To achieve this end, sport governing bodies need to examine legal and medical information related to transgender participation in sport. Separating this information from the confusion, prejudice and misinformation about transgender identity in general and athletic participation by transgender people in particular is essential in developing fair policy.


Education: An important step.
One of the most important first steps for a sport organization or school athletic department to take is to educate athletic staff and athletes about transgender issues in sport. This step is the most effective way to provide information and answer questions about transgender athletic participation and lays the groundwork for developing and following fair policy governing the participation of transgender athletes. The NCAA has established a committee to begin to develop educational materials for athletic administrators, coaches and others on this topic. It Takes A Team! Education Campaign for LGBT Issues in Sport is a participant on this committee and is developing educational materials and programs for athletic administrators, coaches, athletes, and parents on transgender issues in sport.

The purposes of this article are:

1. To provide some clarifying information about basic gender terminology
2. To summarize legal and medical information related to transgender athlete participation in sport
3. To make some recommendations for policy related to the inclusion of transgender athletes in school-based athletic programs
4. To identify resources on transgender athletic participation for sports administrators, coaches, and parents

Clairifaction of Gender Terminology
Before we can explore policy recommendations related to transgender athlete participation in sport, it is important to provide some clarifying information about gender terminology and to address some common misconception about transgender identity. To that end, we offer the following definitions:

Birth/Assigned Sex refers to sex assigned at birth based on the anatomical, physiological and chromosomal characteristics associated with males, females, or intersex people.

Intersex refers to people who are born with both male and female anatomical, physiological or chromosomal characteristics.

Gender Identity refers to a person's internal, deeply felt sense of being a man or a woman. A person's gender identity can be different from their gender assigned at birth.

Gender Expression refers to socially constructed sets of behaviors, appearance, mannerisms, speech patterns, and dress associated with men (masculine), women (feminine) or a mixture of masculine and feminine (often called androgynous), or any other less traditional expressions.


Transgender is an umbrella term that describes people whose gender identity or expression does not conform to prevailing social expectations and can be used to describe people whose gender identity or expression is different from their gender assigned at birth.

Transsexual is a term commonly used to refer to someone who transitions from one gender to another. It includes people who were identified as male at birth but whose gender identity is woman or girl (MTF) and people who were identified as female at birth, but whose gender identity is man or boy (FTM), and people whose gender identity is neither man nor woman. Transition often consists of a change in gender expression, name, and pronoun preference. Transition often also includes hormone therapy, counseling, and surgery.

Transitioned is a descriptor preferred by some people who have completed their gender transition and no longer want to be referred to as either transgender or transsexual. Instead they want to be referred as the new gender to which they have transitioned (woman or man, without the qualifiers, “transgender” or “transsexual”).

Gender Non-Conforming or Gender Variant refers to people who are perceived to have gender characteristics or gender expression that do not conform to traditional social expectations. Gender Variant or gender non-conforming people may or may not identify as transgender.

Sexual Orientation refers to a person's emotional and sexual attraction to other people based on the gender of the other person. A person may identify their sexual orientation as heterosexual, lesbian, gay, bisexual, or queer. Sexual orientation and gender identity are two different aspects of a person's identity. Not all lesbian, gay, bisexual people are gender non-conforming and not all transgender people identify as lesbian, gay or bisexual.

Assumptions about the relationship among a person's sex assigned at birth, gender identity and expression, and sexual orientation are often made. Misunderstanding the differences among these terms can lead to misconceptions about people. For example, transgender/transitioned people or people who display gender variant behavior or appearance are often assumed to be lesbian, gay or bisexual. Similarly, gay men are often stereotyped as having a feminine gender expression and lesbians are often stereotyped as having a masculine gender expression. However, a person's gender identity or expression is unrelated to their sexual orientation. We each have a sexual orientation and a gender identity. Knowing a person's gender identity provides little information about that person's sexual orientation and vice versa.

Summary of Legal Information
Though no federal legislation explicitly prohibits discrimination based on gender identity or expression, the United States Constitution's equal protection clause, Title VII, and Title IX may be interpreted to address discrimination against transgender people or gender non-conforming people. Moreover, the First Amendment and Due Process Clause of the U.S. Constitution may prohibit school officials from censoring student speech, dress, or expression without a compelling reason.

Legal protection from discrimination based on gender identity or expression is currently available in a limited number of states and localities and more states are adding gender identity and expression to their general non-discrimination laws and to laws and policies that apply specifically to students in schools. States that have non-discrimination laws prohibiting discrimination based on sexual orientation, but not gender identity include Connecticut, New Jersey, Maryland, Massachusetts, Nevada, New Hampshire, New York, Vermont and Wisconsin (National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, 2006).

States that prohibit discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity include California, Hawaii, Illinois, Maine, Minnesota, New Mexico, Rhode Island and Washington. The District of Columbia also provides legal protection against discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity (National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, 2006).

Only eight states (Washington, California, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Minnesota, New Jersey, Rhode Island, Vermont, and Wisconsin) and the District of Columbia currently have statewide legal protections for students based on sexual orientation. Only California, Minnesota and New Jersey include protections based on gender identity or expression (Gay, Lesbian, Straight Education Network, 2006).

Regardless of whether there are explicit legal protections for students based on gender identity in a particular state, discrimination against transgender and gender-variant athletes may still result in liability for coaches or schools under other federal or state laws that prohibit gender or sex discrimination.

The most prominent legal case to date involving a transsexual athlete in the United States was Renee Richards v. United States Tennis Association. Richards, a male to female transsexual, sued to participate in the U.S. Open's Women's Division in 1977 without submitting to a sex verification test. The New York court ruled that the USTA was in violation of the state Human Rights Law and was discriminating against Richards. She played in the U.S. Open that year where she lost her first round singles match, but reached the finals in doubles before losing. Athletes identifying as transsexual, transgender or transitioned currently compete in many women's sports including mountain biking, ice hockey, track and field and golf.

Addressing Competitive Athletic Performance Concerns
Ensuring that transgender/transitioned athletes are treated fairly in sport presents a unique challenge because, for the most part, competitive athletics is a sex-segregated activity. Most athletic teams are separated into those for boys and men and those for girls and women. Men and women compete against or with each other in far fewer sports (archery, equestrian, shooting, for example). Moreover, there are well documented physical and physiological differences between males and females that lead to the conventional wisdom that most sports are best conducted as sex segregated activities in order to ensure that women and men have equitable opportunities to compete against others of similar physical and physiological capabilities. The actual overlap in male and female athletic performance, however, is quite large, rather than clearly separated into two distinct groups. The range of physiological characteristics and athletic performance within each of the categories of female and male is also quite wide. Nonetheless, transgender athletes, particularly transsexual or transitioned athletes, challenge accepted boundaries of eligibility and raise concerns about fair competition in sex segregated sport.

A broad spectrum of identities is included under the umbrella of transgender identity. Transsexual or transitioned athletes may pose the greatest challenge to equity in sex segregated sport competition. Athletes who have completed a transition from male to female are most likely to be seen as having an unfair competitive advantage in contests against women who are female at birth. Athletes who have completed a transition from female to male also pose challenges if they are taking testosterone as part of their hormone therapy because of concerns about athletes' use of performance enhancing drugs.

Other transgender athletes; whose gender identity does not match their birth sex, but do not undergo surgery or take hormones; pose less of a competitive equity challenge. Instead, they present a challenge to traditional gender expectations and might be subjected to discrimination or harassment because of stereotypes or prejudice. Athletes whose gender expression is non-conforming, but whose birth sex and gender identity match (i.e. masculine women or feminine men) pose the least challenge to competitive equity. However, these athletes might be subjected to discrimination or harassment based on their gender expression.

Athletic Performance Parity and Transsexual Athletes
Many medical doctors who specialize in treating people who transition make the case that these athletes should be allowed to compete in their new gender. The International Olympic Committee policy on the participation of transsexual athletes in the Olympic Games reflects this perspective. In 2003 the Executive Committee of the IOC approved a set of criteria to determine the eligibility of transsexual/transitioned athletes recommended by the IOC Medical Commission. The IOC policy is as follows:

Sex reassignment before puberty: Individuals undergoing sex reassignment surgery of male to female before puberty should be regarded as girls and women (female). This also applies to individuals undergoing female to male reassignment, who should be regarded as boys and men (male).

Sex reassignment after puberty: Individuals undergoing sex reassignment from male to female after puberty (and vice versa) are eligible for participation in female or male competitions, respectively, under the following conditions:

* Surgical anatomical changes have been completed, including external genitalia changes and gonadectomy
* Legal recognition of their reassigned sex has been conferred by the appropriate official authorities
* Hormonal therapy appropriate for the assigned sex has been administered in a verifiable manner and for a sufficient length of time to minimize gender-related advantages in sports competition
* Eligibility should begin no sooner than two years after gonadectomy
* It is understood that a confidential case by case evaluation will occur. In the event that the gender of a competing athlete is questioned, the medical delegate (or equivalent) of the relevant sporting body shall have the authority to take all appropriate measures for the determination of the gender of the competitor.

This policy is based on the medical opinion that, under these conditions, any residual competitive advantage for an athlete who transitions from male to female will be neutralized and she can compete fairly with athletes who are female at birth. Many women athletes and coaches are skeptical of this opinion and believe that transitioned women continue to have a competitive advantage over other women. This assumption ignores the already existing wide range of size, height, skill, strength, ability, speed and other components of athletic ability among females at birth.

The IOC policy, although it expressly includes FTM people, does not address issues that FTMs would encounter, specifically steroid test problems. It is our position that FTM athletes should be allowed to compete as men if their testosterone levels are in the normal range for athletes who are male at birth.

Recommendations for Interactions: Pronouns, Name Changes and Name Calling
Many transgender people adopt new names as one aspect of expressing their gender identity. Not all transgender people choose to change their names, but when they do, it is important to respect these requests. For coaches and teammates who know an athlete while they are in the midst of this change, it can be a challenge to get used to using a new name or different pronouns. Slipping up and using the “old” name is probably inevitable as everyone adjusts to these changes.

Most transgender people also want to be referred to with the pronoun that best corresponds to their gender identity. Some transgender people prefer neutral pronouns such as “hir” (for her or his) or “ze” (for he or she). Regardless of whether an athlete is on a men's or women's team, it is important to abide by a transgender athlete's preferences because names and pronouns are an essential part of validating and respecting a transgender athlete's gender identity and expression.

Gender non-conforming people who do not identity as transgender are often teased or harassed about their non-conformity. For example, a male athlete named Patrick who enjoys dancing might be called “Patricia” as a means to disparage his masculinity. This kind of teasing or harassment makes athletes feel that they must conform to gender expectations or risk the friendship of their peers.

An unfortunate practice on some boy's and men's athletic teams is deriding an athlete's performance by calling him a “girl” or referring to him with a girl's name. The message is that not only is he not performing up to the standards expected of him as a male athlete, but also that the athletic performances of girls and women are inferior. This practice should never be tolerated because it creates an unsafe environment for all athletes and is a discriminatory strategy for motivating better athletic performance.

Similarly, when strong athletic girls or women are called “masculine,” referred to by men's names, or compared to boys and men, the message is that high performing female athletes are exhibiting athletic skills that only men have. Sometimes male and female athletes or coaches taunt opponents by using inappropriate pronouns or names as a way to distract them or taunt them during competition. This practice is also unacceptable and creates a hostile and unsafe climate for all athletes, especially those whose gender identity or expression is non-conforming.
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Postby Penguin » Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:23 am

(me and my mates, we just call each other "homos" and then have some hugs and kisses)
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Postby Stephen Morgan » Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:13 am

She was on the radio. She has a very masculine voice, very deep timbre to it. I read about a road racing cyclist, a few years ago so I forget her name, but she had also been born a man and was thrown out of competition because the women refused to race against her. Obviously a male-female transexual will lose the ability to compete with men at a similar level to before the treatment, and can then be forbidden from competing with women. The spokesman for the female athletes thought she should compete only against transexuals, which would mean racing against herself.

PenguinTo be fair, none of those other ladies have much in the way of [/i]boobs either.

They're athletes.

What about transgendered people, or people born hermaphrodite then..
Or inborn hormone balance differences..
Will she get a free dick if they find out shes a he?


They covered this, if she's a hormonal freak, that's fine. If she's a man, that's cheating. And I imagine that, if she used to be a man, she's still got her original dick somewhere, perhaps in a jar on her mantlepiece.

Or in competitive sports, heigt/weight or strength classes instead of strict male / female. But hey, Im a dreamer.

They do that in weightlifting, but there are still no competitions for both men and women, because the men are still stronger.

The message is that not only is he not performing up to the standards expected of him as a male athlete, but also that the athletic performances of girls and women are inferior.

Are they not?
Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible. -- Lawrence of Arabia
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Postby barracuda » Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:17 am

Stephen Morgan wrote:if she used to be a man, she's still got her original dick somewhere, perhaps in a jar on her mantlepiece.


Sounds like the voice of experience.
The most dangerous traps are the ones you set for yourself. - Phillip Marlowe
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Postby OP ED » Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:29 am

Stephen Morgan wrote:Are they not?



of all of the misogynist/retarded things i've seen you say here, that has to be in the top five...

the answer is that it depends on the sport numbnuts.

edit:

[note: not removing any insults this time]

by which i meant, look up "gymnastics" on wiki...
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Postby Joe Hillshoist » Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:37 pm

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Postby Joe Hillshoist » Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:50 pm

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Postby Oyeboten » Sat Aug 22, 2009 3:55 am

I'd say...some of those Babes is definitely 'Dudes'...


Among other things...one sees them to be a little too lumpy there in the 'Delta-of-Venus'...instead of 'smooth'...


Anyway...'Boobs' are mostly fat...female Runners have very very little body fat...hence, fairly modest boob-wise...
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Postby stefano » Sat Aug 22, 2009 6:10 am

Ha, I was thinking of Maria Mutola yesterday reading this thread, she was also freakishly mannish. I suppose from time to time a woman with a more masculine metabolism is going to show up and do well in athletics, like Mutola and now Semenya.

Penguin, do you really think gender roles are wholly traditional constructs? "Assigned at birth"? They aren't, and the belief that they are ultimately springs from a conviction that humans are completely and utterly different from all other animals, which I know you don't share.
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Postby brainpanhandler » Sat Aug 22, 2009 6:58 am

"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." - Martin Luther King Jr.
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Postby Joe Hillshoist » Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:04 am

Oyeboten wrote:I'd say...some of those Babes is definitely 'Dudes'...


Among other things...one sees them to be a little too lumpy there in the 'Delta-of-Venus'...instead of 'smooth'...


Anyway...'Boobs' are mostly fat...female Runners have very very little body fat...hence, fairly modest boob-wise...


The czech, Jarmilia Kratochvilova (sp?)definitely looks like a bloke, or like she spent too much on the 'roids. Saw an interview with a female bodybuilder who spent time on roids once. She sounded freaky and said that her clit grew to the size of a penis and her genitals deformed.

I always assumed thats why she looked so masculine. She ran the world record for the 800m in 1983. It hasn't been beaten since - not even mutola beat it.

stefano wrote:I suppose from time to time a woman with a more masculine metabolism is going to show up and do well in athletics, like Mutola and now Semenya.


I spose that's true. I saw her and Marita Koch race in 1985. I would have said performance enhancing drugs had a bit to do with what they looked like. I saw Koch set the world record for the 400m. 24 years ago.

Couldn't comment on Semenya's alleged masculinity (tho her names a bit of a trigger), cept to say that its probably a dubious claim. Time will tell.

I once heard/saw a lecture by a non gender specific person, born without identifiable genitalia.

That was an eye/mind opening lecture. I wouldn't know where to begin.
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Postby compared2what? » Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:11 am

stefano wrote:Ha, I was thinking of Maria Mutola yesterday reading this thread, she was also freakishly mannish. I suppose from time to time a woman with a more masculine metabolism is going to show up and do well in athletics, like Mutola and now Semenya.

Penguin, do you really think gender roles are wholly traditional constructs? "Assigned at birth"? They aren't, and the belief that they are ultimately springs from a conviction that humans are completely and utterly different from all other animals, which I know you don't share.


I may be misreading you. But gender roles, as represented by behaviors traditionally associated with chomosomal gender, aren't entirely cultural constructs, either. There's a wide and potentially infinite range of variety. And it's greatly influenced by environmental factors. But on average, there are some pretty enduring and consistent biological components as well.

Fascinating if very sad, uniquely illustrative story of what was presented for years as one of the most authoritative cases wrt the mutability of birth-assigned gender:

The True Story of John/Joan

By John Colapinto


    In 1967, an anonymous baby boy was turned into a girl by doctors at Johns Hopkins Hospital. For 25 years, the case of John/Joan was called a medical triumph — proof that a child’s gender identity could be changed — and thousands of “sex reassignments” were performed based on this example. But the case was a failure, the truth never reported. Now the man who grew up as a girl tells the story of his life, and a medical controversy erupts.


    In late June 1997, I arrive at an address in a working-class suburb in the North American Midwest. On the front lawn, a child’s bicycle lies on its side; an eight-year-old secondhand Toyota is parked at the curb. Inside the house, a handmade wooden cabinet in the corner of the living room holds the standard emblems of family life: wedding photos and school portraits, china figurines and souvenirs from family trips. There is a knockoff-antique coffee table, a well-worn easy chair and a sofa – which is where my host, a wiry young man dressed in a jean jacket and scuffed work boots, seats himself. He is 31 years old but could pass for a decade younger. Partly it’s the sparseness of his beard – just a few blond wisps that sprout from his jaw line; partly it’s a certain delicacy to his prominent cheekbones and tapering chin. Otherwise he looks, and sounds, exactly like what he is: a blue-collar factory worker, a man of high school education whose fondest pleasures are to do a little weekend fishing with his dad in the local river and to have a backyard barbecue with his wife and kids.

    Ordinarily a rough-edged and affable young man, he stops smiling when conversation turns to his childhood. Then his voice – a burred baritone – takes on a tone of aggrievement and anger, or the pleading edge of someone desperate to communicate emotions that he knows his listener can only dimly understand. How well even he understands these emotions is not clear: When describing events that occurred prior to his 15th birthday, he tends to drop the pronoun I from his speech, replacing it with the distancing you – almost as if he were speaking about someone else altogether. Which, in a sense, he is.

    “It was like brainwashing,” he is saying now as he lights a cigarette. “I’d give just about anything to go to a hypnotist to black out my whole past. Because it’s torture. What they did to you in the body is sometimes not near as bad as what they did to you in the mind – with the psychological warfare in your head.”

    He is referring to the extraordinary medical treatment he received after suffering the complete loss of his penis to a botched circumcision when he was 8 months old. On the advice of experts at the renowned Johns Hopkins medical center, in Baltimore, a sex-change operation was performed on him, a process that involved clinical castration and other genital surgery when he was a baby, followed by a 12-year program of social, mental and hormonal conditioning to make the transformation take hold in his psyche. The case was reported as an unqualified success, and he became one of the most famous (though unnamed) patients in the annals of modern medicine.

    It’s a fame that derives not only from the fact that his medical metamorphosis was the first sex reassignment ever reported on a developmentally normal child but also from a stunning statistical long shot that lent a special significance to the case. He was born an identical twin, and his brother provided the experiment with a built-in matched control – a genetic clone who, with penis intact, was raised as a male. That the twins were reported to have grown into happy, well-adjusted children of opposite sex seemed unassailable proof of the primacy of rearing over biology in the differentiation of the sexes and was the basis for the rewriting of textbooks in a wide range of medical disciplines. Most seriously, the case set a precedent for sex reassignment as the standard treatment for thousands of newborns with similarly injured, or irregular, genitals. It also became a touchstone for the feminist movement in the 1970s, when it was cited as living proof that the gender gap is purely a result of cultural conditioning, not biology. For Dr John Money, the medical psychologist who was the architect of the experiment, this case was to be the most publicly celebrated triumph of a 40-year career that recently earned him the accolade “one of the greatest sex researchers of the century.”

    But as the mere existence of this young man in front of me would suggest, the experiment was a failure, a fact revealed in a March 1997 article in the Archives of Adolescent and Pediatric Medicine. Authors Milton Diamond, a biologist at the University of Hawaii, and Keith Sigmundson, a psychiatrist from Victoria, British Columbia, documented how the twin had struggled against his imposed girlhood from the start. The paper set off shock waves in medical circles around the world, generating furious debate about the ongoing practice of sex reassignment (a procedure more common than anyone might think). It also raised troubling questions about the way the case was reported in the first place, why it took almost 20 years for a follow-up to reveal the actual outcome and why that follow-up was conducted not by Dr. Money but by outside researchers. The answers to these questions, fascinating for what they suggest about the mysteries of sexual identity, also bring to light a 30-year rivalry between eminent sex researchers, a rivalry whose very bitterness not only dictated how this most unsettling of medical tragedies was exposed but also may, in fact, have been the impetus behind the experiment in the first place.

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Postby stefano » Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:02 am

Joe Hillshoist wrote:Couldn't comment on Semenya's alleged masculinity (tho her names a bit of a trigger)


Not necessarily, a lot black South African parents give their kids a more or less random English name as a second name, which is often the name they end up getting called at school. I work daily with a man in Joburg called Precious. The quote by the manager seems a lot more dodgy: “We entered Caster as a woman and we want to keep it that way”. Why not just say "Caster is a woman"?

compared2what? wrote:gender roles, as represented by behaviors traditionally associated with chomosomal gender, aren't entirely cultural constructs, either. There's a wide and potentially infinite range of variety. And it's greatly influenced by environmental factors. But on average, there are some pretty enduring and consistent biological components as well.


I absolutely agree, which is why I was asking Penguin about what he'd posted, about 'gender assigned at birth'. I think the biological foundations of gender roles allow a certain amount of variation, but that boys are born with certain impulses and girls with certain others. I think this 'blank slate' way of looking at things is not only silly but can be harmful, as in the case of the hundreds of children who've been 'gender-reassigned' and for whom it may not have worked out.

Of course some children are born with or acquire very different impulses, and it's good that in a lot of places they are now free to live their lives as they wish.

edited to fix quote
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