Anti-Imperialism & Anti-Humanist Rhetoric of Gilad Atzmon

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Re: Anti-Imperialism & Anti-Humanist Rhetoric of Gilad Atzmo

Postby American Dream » Mon May 07, 2012 4:38 pm

American Dream wrote:The peddlers of right wing racism continue to peddle...right wing racism ...(gasp!)

It seems doubtful that they will change any time soon.

So this thread has been primarily useful for shining a light on those who would wrap themselves in the banner of anti-racism in order to perpetuate racism, wrap themselves in the banner of helping Palestinian liberation in order to hurt it...

It is highly doubtful the Atzmon fans here will change any time soon- and even less likely that the leading purveyors of such misleading and discredited ideas will (unless their funding dries up or something).

That said, I should add that this thread has been quite educational in documenting how figures such as Atzmon and Shamir work- and how others then follow their ideas, right or wrong.

None of those followers have offered any sort of principled and decent definition of anti-semitism which would then lead to a reasonable determination of who are some actual racists/anti-semites who should therefore be avoided.

That really says a lot when you consider that even the most hate-filled, ahistorical reactionaries such as Zundel, Eisen, Duke, Shamir, Carto etc. don't seem to present much of a problem.

Never mind that such anti-semitic garbage is just poison for the BDS Movement- none of these "friends" of the Palestinian cause seem very concerned about that at all.

Anyone thinking seriously about how to do successful organizing in support of Palestinian liberation would have to wonder why on Earth anyone would take such a position...
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Re: Anti-Imperialism & Anti-Humanist Rhetoric of Gilad Atzmo

Postby bluenoseclaret » Mon May 07, 2012 5:12 pm

Hello A.D

I'm sure I know someone who has no anti-semitic garbage. Would you accept David Horowitz into your local Palestinian Solidarity group.? Just curious.

.."Anyone thinking seriously about how to do successful organizing in support of Palestinian liberation would have to wonder why on Earth anyone would ..."....have someone like Tony Greenstein in a senior position.!

Talk about taking the piss.!

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Re: Anti-Imperialism & Anti-Humanist Rhetoric of Gilad Atzmo

Postby Sounder » Mon May 07, 2012 5:18 pm

C2W? wrote...
What hidden agenda do you suspect me of harboring, precisely?

No agenda C2W? But I will bet that you as well as any simpleton off the street can see you again asserting that I consider you to be part of some “Jewish” conspiracy.

That sort of thing tends to focus my energy on responding to the slander rather than thinking about more useful things.

This is my own damn fault and perhaps I will do well to take a break.

Fair play Uh huh, yeah that i’ll happen.

Oh, and my thing with AD is not a, whatever,whatever fancy word thing, it was merely an observation.
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Re: Anti-Imperialism & Anti-Humanist Rhetoric of Gilad Atzmo

Postby compared2what? » Mon May 07, 2012 5:49 pm

Sounder wrote:C2W? wrote...
What hidden agenda do you suspect me of harboring, precisely?

No agenda C2W? But I will bet that you as well as any simpleton off the street can see you again asserting that I consider you to be part of some “Jewish” conspiracy.


I would have said that if it had been what I meant.

I was asking a real question.

ON EDIT: Sounder -- How is my having failed to preserve your use of a word as a noun (like "idealogy") and not an adjective (like "ideological") a vile corruption of the integrity of your language, if your assignation of a value-laden meaning to my words that they don't actually have is not?

How?
Last edited by compared2what? on Mon May 07, 2012 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anti-Imperialism & Anti-Humanist Rhetoric of Gilad Atzmo

Postby slimmouse » Mon May 07, 2012 5:54 pm

JackRiddler wrote:
slimmouse wrote:You can take satisfaction from that no doubt.


The only satisfaction you could give me would be never to make me have to skip over one of your posts here again.


Oh well at least I make it easy for you. I feel like Dwight Phillips every time I skip over one of yours.
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Re: Anti-Imperialism & Anti-Humanist Rhetoric of Gilad Atzmo

Postby Searcher08 » Mon May 07, 2012 6:41 pm

American Dream wrote: It is highly doubtful the Atzmon fans here will change any time soon- and even less likely that the leading purveyors of such misleading and discredited ideas will (unless their funding dries up or something).


AFAIK you have not posted a single argument of your own on this thread, so that point is moot.

That said, I should add that this thread has been quite educational in documenting how figures such as Atzmon and Shamir work- and how others then follow their ideas, right or wrong.


For me, This thread is very educational but rather for pointing out how some will wrap themselves in the flag of fighting essentialism to cover their exceptionalism.
No one gets a free pass... except for the ADL, AIPAC, JINSA. And questions s to Why remain forever unanswered...

None of those followers have offered any sort of principled and decent definition of anti-semitism which would then lead to a reasonable determination of who are some actual racists/anti-semites who should therefore be avoided.


Jesus H Christ. AT LAST. After 1000 frikken posts...

Now a definition of anti-Semitism is a good idea - but a understanding and statement of what it actually means on a day to day basis in one's life for each contributor on this thread would be much stronger.

However your statement after that is a bit of a Heffalump trap, because it links a good definition of anti-semitism with... avoiding people.
And here is the rub. Because where we differ is that you seek to avoid. The evidence from out in the real world seems to indicate that a good approach to dealing with extreme racism is to walk right up to it and speak with it, as in the article I posted on the re-habilitation methods used in dealing with jailed neo-Nazis in Germany.
I also call attention to the article I posted earlier in the thread which featured the story of a Danish guy who photographed the KKK and all sorts of racists. he became friendly with them on a personal level - and found that they had often been appallingly treated as young children, from families riven by alcoholism and violence. He reported that deeply listening to them seemed to be something like a missing vitamin being restored. So I suggest that 'moving away from' - on the basis of empirical evidence just doesn't work. It leaves the problem system in a worse state than it was.


That really says a lot when you consider that even the most hate-filled, ahistorical reactionaries such as Zundel, Eisen, Duke, Shamir, Carto etc. don't seem to present much of a problem.


It doesn't present a problem to people like Nizkor, who are happy to take every question that you can think of about the Holocaust and answer it. But it seems that certain sections of the Far Right find that a bit hard to deal with and tend to err... run away.

What would you do - jail them all for life? Burn them as "ahistorical reactionaries"? Cos if you do that, you'll be burning a large number of "ahistorical reactionaries" at the Ancient Astronaut thread.

In the UK, the leader of the BNP was allowed on one of the main debate programmes.
He was an EPIC FAIL. The BNP have not been banned - they shot themselves... in both feet. LOL
However, I imagine that you would have been contacting the BBC, getting them banned and making them 'martyrs' in the process.

From Wiki on Nizkor
In the late 1990s, the Simon Wiesenthal Center criticized the Nizkor Project for increasing the visibility of hate groups and Holocaust deniers, even as it sought to debunk them.[8] This debate between free speech advocates such as McVay and those who favor the suppression of speech with hate crime laws continued throughout the late 1990s, but has mostly been resolved. In 1996, McVay spoke out against Internet hate crime laws in Canada in front of a committee of the Canadian Parliament, stating that it is better to address the false claims of Holocaust deniers, rather than to censor them.[9]


Never mind that such anti-semitic garbage is just poison for the BDS Movement- none of these "friends" of the Palestinian cause seem very concerned about that at all.


The poison for the BDS movement is the AZZ garbage injected into it by people like Greenstein -
personally I think it's more important to focus on
a) what I can do as an individual and those are already actions I am taking
b) to get my ass out of telling any Palestinian how to realise their dream of a free and peaceful Palestinian state. They REALLY do not need my frickken 'Solidarity'. The chances of a secular Marxist solution are zero, the chances of a peaceful Islamic state much higher. It might look more like Malaysia than Cuba. But that is THEIR business.
c) Equal opportunity critique for ADL, AIPAC , JINSA etc al
d) Cloning 100 Medea Benjamin leaders >> 100,000 Army of Apparatchiks

American Dream wrote:Anyone thinking seriously about how to do successful organizing in support of Palestinian liberation would have to wonder why on Earth anyone would take such a position...


AT LAST * 2 !
IMHO A thread on organisation would be a very good thing.
Right now, my position is that thinking about successfully organising ANYTHING has NOTHING to do with ANYTHING in this thread.
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Re: Anti-Imperialism & Anti-Humanist Rhetoric of Gilad Atzmo

Postby American Dream » Mon May 07, 2012 6:51 pm

The original post is well worth revisiting:

http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/2012/ga280212.html

It is, as such, not surprising that Atzmon's work has received enthusiastic reviews by such prominent members of the racist right as former Ku Klux Klan leader David Duke, Kevin MacDonald of the Occidental Observer, David Icke, and Arthur Topham's the Radical Press. It should not be surprising that Atzmon has distributed articles defending Holocaust deniers and those who write of "the Hitler we loved and why."15 These connections ultimately serve the interests of Zionism, which seeks to conflate anti-Zionism with anti-Jewishness. Zionist agents have repeatedly attempted to ensnare and link Palestinian, Arab, and/or Muslim rights advocates to Neo-Nazism, through dirty tricks and outright lies.

It is more surprising and disappointing, then, that a small section of the left has opted to promote Atzmon and his works. In the UK, the Socialist Workers Party promoted Atzmon for several years16 before finally breaking with him; his latest book The Wandering Who? has been published by the left-wing Zero Books (a decision that elicited a letter of protest from several Zero authors).17 In the United States, the widely-read Counterpunch website has repeatedly chosen to run articles by Atzmon. Currently, in February and March 2012, Atzmon is on tour in North America, where several of his speaking engagements are being organized by progressive anti-imperialists whom we would normally like to consider our allies.

While perhaps well-meaning, operating under the assumption that any opposition to Zionism is to be welcomed, progressives who promote the work of Atzmon are in fact surrendering the moral high ground by encouraging a belief-system that simply mirrors that of the most racist section of Israeli society. Anti-racism is not a liability; on the contrary, it is a principle that makes our movements stronger in the long fight for a better tomorrow.

As political activists committed to resisting colonialism and imperialism -- in North America and around the world -- we recognize that there can be different interpretations of history, and we welcome exploring these. Without wishing to debate the question of whether far-right and racist ideologues should be censored, or how, we see no reason for progressive people to organize events to promote their works.

In our struggle against Zionism, racism, and all forms of colonialism and imperialism, there is no place for anti-Semitism or the vilification of Jews, Palestinians, or any people based on their religions, cultures, nationalities, ethnicity, or history. At this historic junction -- when the need to struggle for the liberation of Palestine is more vital than ever and the fault lines of capitalist empire are becoming more widely exposed -- no anti-oppressive revolution can be built with ultra-right allies or upon foundations friendly to creeping fascism.
"If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything."
-Malcolm X
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Re: Anti-Imperialism & Anti-Humanist Rhetoric of Gilad Atzmo

Postby American Dream » Mon May 07, 2012 7:07 pm

Also:

http://azvsas.blogspot.com/2012/03/pale ... savow.html
Palestinians have faced two centuries of orientalist, colonialist and imperialist domination of our native lands. And so as Palestinians, we see such language as immoral and completely outside the core foundations of humanism, equality and justice, on which the struggle for Palestine and its national movement rests. As countless Palestinian activists and organizers, their parties, associations and campaigns, have attested throughout the last century, our struggle was never, and will never be, with Jews, or Judaism, no matter how much Zionism insists that our enemies are the Jews. Rather, our struggle is with Zionism, a modern European settler colonial movement, similar to movements in many other parts of the world that aim to displace indigenous people and build new European societies on their lands.

We reaffirm that there is no room in this historic and foundational analysis of our struggle for any attacks on our Jewish allies, Jews, or Judaism; nor denying the Holocaust; nor allying in any way shape or form with any conspiracy theories, far-right, orientalist, and racist arguments, associations and entities. Challenging Zionism, including the illegitimate power of institutions that support the oppression of Palestinians, and the illegitimate use of Jewish identities to protect and legitimize oppression, must never become an attack on Jewish identities, nor the demeaning and denial of Jewish histories in all their diversity.

Indeed, we regard any attempt to link and adopt antisemitic or racist language, even if it is within a self-described anti-imperialist and anti-Zionist politics, as reaffirming and legitimizing Zionism. In addition to its immorality, this language obscures the fundamental role of imperialism and colonialism in destroying our homeland, expelling its people, and sustaining the systems and ideologies of oppression, apartheid and occupation. It leaves one squarely outside true solidarity with Palestine and its people.

The goal of the Palestinian people has always been clear: self determination. And we can only exercise that inalienable right through liberation, the return of our refugees (the absolute majority of our people) and achieving equal rights to all through decolonization. As such, we stand with all and any movements that call for justice, human dignity, equality, and social, economic, cultural and political rights. We will never compromise the principles and spirit of our liberation struggle. We will not allow a false sense of expediency to drive us into alliance with those who attack, malign, or otherwise attempt to target our political fraternity with all liberation struggles and movements for justice.

As Palestinians, it is our collective responsibility, whether we are in Palestine or in exile, to assert our guidance of our grassroots liberation struggle. We must protect the integrity of our movement, and to do so we must continue to remain vigilant that those for whom we provide platforms actually speak to its principles.

When the Palestinian people call for self-determination and decolonization of our homeland, we do so in the promise and hope of a community founded on justice, where all are free, all are equal and all are welcome.
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Re: Anti-Imperialism & Anti-Humanist Rhetoric of Gilad Atzmo

Postby Searcher08 » Mon May 07, 2012 7:09 pm

I found this a interesting review of Atzmons book by a Palestinian academic and activist
Dr. Mazin Qumsiyeh.

http://salem-news.com/articles/may052012/mazin-gilad.php
Image

Gilad Atzmon, The Wandering Who? A Study of Jewish Identity Politics (Ropley, Hampshire, UK: Zero Books, 2011). Pp.177. Paperback. ISBN-13: 9781846948756. Review by Mazin Qumsiyeh
Copy Right: Holy Land Studies, May 2012, Vol. 11, No. 1 : pp. 99-101

About nine years ago, I entertained the notion of writing a book on “group identities” so that I can understand these concepts that cause a lot of the ills of society. Both WWI and WWII emanated from interpretations of nationalism (a group identity) and the conflict in Palestine mostly emanates from another group identity called Zionism. The horrors of the Crusaders came from the group identity of Christendom. There is an issue now with the notions of (Political) “Islamism" ala Osama Bin Laden. I am still exploring and reading on this issue from different authors and thus was intrigued to read the book by Gilad Atzmon that addresses this concept within Jewish communities.

Atzmon concluded from personal experience that he does not like Jewish group identity politics and any other form of what he calls “marginal group identity”. Atzmon starts by explaining his own upbringing as a third generation Israeli whose grandfather was a member of the underground terror organization the Irgun Gang and how via Jazz (and a questioning mind) he “left Chosen-ness behind to become an ordinary human being”.

Atzmon is accused by many to be a “self-hating Jew” and an “anti-Semite”. To the former label he admits but he strongly objects to the second label. His book represents in many ways a clarification of why he believes the way he does. He says (p. 15) that he distinguishes Jews (the people), Judaism (the religion), and Jewish-ness (the ideology). He has no problem with the first two but strongly argues against that third. He puts quotes that show that those who believe in this ideology put Jewish-ness above all other attributes. Thus he understands Chaim Weizmann’s statement that “there are no English, French, German, or American Jews, but only Jews living in England, France, Germany or America.” This third category that Weizmann belongs to even when overlapping with the first or second category, tends to according to Atzmon, overwhelm all other and represent a strong marginal politics.

Using these definitions, Atzmon proceed to explain how and why this belief (identity politics of Jewish-ness) was critical in the error of going to war on Iraq, in the spying by Jonathan Pollard, in the neoconservative ideologies of Paul Wolfowitz and Richard Perle, and even in economic decisions of Alan Greenspan. He makes clear that he does not see these things as Jewish conspiracies but merely independent actions based on a set of political/ideological discourse (the Jewish identity politics). My thought is that individual readers should not judge this based on hearsay but should do it for themselves by reading the book. If one gets convinced by Atzmon’s analysis, one could get to the radical conclusion that he makes that “one can hardly endorse a universal philosophy while being identified politically as a Jew” (p. 39).

According to Atzmon, the problems with marginal identity politics such as those of “Jewish-ness” and its alter-ego Zionism is that they are defined by negation: “the political Jew is always against something or set apart from something else. This is far from being an ideal recipe for a peaceful, ethical life, driven by reconciliation and harmony.” (p. 48).

But Atzmon goes further and here I believe is where his thesis draws the wrath of some in the establishment and overtly sensitive crowds: Zionism is a “tribal Jewish preservation project” and “within the Zionist framework, the Israelis colonize Palestine and the Jewish Diaspora is there to mobilise lobbies by recruiting International support. The Neocons transform the American army into an Israeli mission force. Anti Zionists of Jewish descent (and this may even include proud self-haters such as myself) are there to portray an image of ideological plurality and ethical concern.”(p. 70). And in the secular Jewish political discourse, there is no need for God, political Jews are taught to value the Jewish collective and inflict damage to others in the name of this collective according to Atzmon.

Many things he says do make sense even if we may quibble with other things. In explaining “pre-traumatic stress syndrome” he explains that any Jews are taught to anticipate negative things and that in this regard those who actually experienced the negative things (e.g. holocaust survivors) seem more rational and far less hateful of the other than the Jews who did not experience those directly. The latter may even invent events to justify the perpetual fear and hatred. I thought of this as I thought of all the Zionists who lied, cheated, pressured, cajoled, threatened us and our friends and employers and contrasted those with fellow human beings who happen to have a Jewish background (including many holocaust survivors) who stood with us in fighting for human rights. He explained to me that in this area his study and personal experience were the most significant of his controversial findings.

Atzmon argues rather convincingly that “it is not the idea of being unethical that torments Israelis and their supporters, but the idea of being ‘caught out’ as such” (p. 84). This phobia according to Atzmon explains the amount of death and destruction that Israel sows in its surroundings in an attempt to resolve or at least distract from this inner conflict between the tribal and the universal. But this only adds to the phobia for to Atzmon ‘the more they insist on loving themselves for who they think they are, the more they loath themselves for what they have become.” (p. 86). He claims that that leaves three escape routes: total segregation, return to orthodoxy (religion), and flight from “Jewish-ness” (an option he had chosen).

I see in Atzmon writings a number of memes that are seeping into common discourse. A meme is a persuasive idea that spreads in a population like a useful gene spreads in a population. Some of those memes include:
-The now well-established fact that Jews are not a racial group but an ideological religious belief that spread many centuries ago among people of diverse background (this meme came from studies of the Khazars and others by authors like Arthur Koestler, Kevin Alan Brooks, Shlomo Sand, and now Atzmon)
-The idea of a conflict between chauvinistic nationalism and universal humanism.
-The weird mix of religious heritage/belief with tribal notions in Jewish political discourse
-The distorted recruitment of archeological and other studies to support the political ideology of a connection between Jews of today and Israelites of the bible
-The recruitment of the ideology of suffering as a quasi-religious belief that is no longer subject to normal historical examinations (and in fact shielded from such historical examination via laws)

In some places, one could argue that Atzmon goes too far in his conclusions or does not delve as deep as possible in the nuances of identity politics. For example he argues that those who identify themselves as politically Jewish but anti-Zionist serve the same goal as Zionist Jews by keeping the debate “within the family” (p. 102). In another chapter (Chapter 19), Atzmon analyzes the book of Esther and its associated Purim holiday in a political modern context to argue that the lessons drawn from the modern emphasis on the book of Esther (which does not mention God) is the need for Jews to rely on themselves and to get to positions of power in Goyim (gentile) societies to impact their own future. While that interpretation explains the Zionist lobbies in Western countries, some people who are not tribal in their thinking may draw other lessons from the book of Esther or at least downplay it and emphasize other parts of the Torah..

In another place Atzmon questions the sincerity of a Zionist who was part of the group that collaborated with Hitler and who later reported to Lenni Brenner (a historian of the Nazi-Zionist collaboration) that they were wrong and that he is now an American with American loyalties. Atzmon thinks that this relates to the old edict “of being a Jew at home, and a gentile in the streets” (Moses Mendelssohn’s “Haskala Mantra”).

One could quibble with some of these notions, connections, and conclusions. Atzmon's opinions are to be respected even if some of them are based on subjective judgments about other individuals' emotions and motivations. That is because many of his opinions are also shaped by personal experiences. Other parts of the book are intimate and personal and I do not see how Atzmon’s detractors can challenge him on that. For example I fully agree with him that “fighting racism for real primarily entails opposing the racist within” (p. 95). Each of us must fight the demons within before we challenge the demons without. I found these sections of the book which discuss Atzmon's own reflections on his past and evolution of his thinking to be the most fascinating and informative.

As for the other (related) themes and notions presented in this fascinating book, I think this is a very important dialogue to have even if some of us may disagree with some interpretations. The 130 years of Zionist colonization resulted in devastation of a native society and culture resulting in 7 million refugees of a total of 11 million (the rest left in shrinking "people warehouses"). Further, after several wars and countless lives destroyed, it is definitely time to discuss in more detail the motives and the psychology behind Zionism. The attempt to censor and shut down this debate is backfiring. More and more people are spreading memes that challenge the tribalism that lead to conflicts and war. People can choose to dismiss these things and avoid the dialog or can engage in it. I think it is far more constructive to engage in it than to dismiss it out of hand.
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Re: Anti-Imperialism & Anti-Humanist Rhetoric of Gilad Atzmo

Postby eyeno » Tue May 08, 2012 2:29 am

compared2what wrote:
I think I agree. But either way, I'd like to add that if/when genocide enters the picture, you're no longer really dealing with just a sick culture, or an arrogant culture, or a prejudiced culture, but with a criminal culture. Which is not to say that it mightn't also be culturally sick, arrogant, and prejudiced. Obviously, to some degree, it almost has to be. My point is just that genocide isn't a problem that's responsive to witheringly harsh cultural critique. Because it's not really a cultural problem, at least as a principal matter. It creates them, for sure. And, theoretically, it might have been created by them, too.

But if so, whatever else they may or may not be, they're definitely not "the biggest or most urgent or realest problem that either you and/or that culture got going on." Because that's genocide. And it just can't hurt to bear that in mind, really. I feel.




Normally I wouldn't bust you out like this. But come on? :sarcasm As a New York intellectual you will have to help me out on this one ok? I have no damn idea which rhetorical device this one is supposed to be. I am still trying to figure it out. Either I am too unskilled on my rhetorical devices or you totally botched this one. Would you help me on this one please? :partydance:

I almost cited the whole wikipedia definition on rhetorical device just to be mean and then decided that was beyond mean and didn't do it. Just give me a hint and i'll be satisfied and i'll go away. I'm just too damn curious not to ask. :angelwings:
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Re: Anti-Imperialism & Anti-Humanist Rhetoric of Gilad Atzmo

Postby compared2what? » Tue May 08, 2012 2:57 am

I wasn't doing anything fancy. I was just writing poorly and failing to make my point.

When I get it straight, I'll let you know.
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Re: Anti-Imperialism & Anti-Humanist Rhetoric of Gilad Atzmo

Postby brainpanhandler » Tue May 08, 2012 6:12 am

c2w? wrote:
Searcher08 wrote: The actual diaspora - like my cousins in Perth in Australia who have Aussie kids - do not have a desire for a mid 1950s rural Ireland where the only priorities are keeping in the good books of your priest, your dad and your pub landlord... which is e.g. the value system the people who blew up Omagh. It's when some of these people see themselves as entitled to an Ireland that exists only in their head and that anyone who disagrees with them is a sell-out to Church, Paternal authority and 'the real Mother Ireland' and deserves to be dis-assembled bodily with extreme prejudice, that one needs to look at what is "Irishness".


Irrational fanaticism is a problem, no matter who it afflicts. Not always the same problem, or a problem of the same caliber, or a problem that amounts to a threat to others as well as a blight to self. Of course.But it's always some kind of damn problem.


c2w? wrote:
Searcher08 wrote: Now I also see that there is the 'culture, scmulture' - who gives a stuff really. Cultures are like bumholes, we were all issued one at birth. BFD. I agree. It's where one culture sees itself as better than another, or starts buying it's own self-perpetuating mythology that the issues start and where these states start getting connected to guns and domination and resource contention that bad stuff happens.


I think I agree. But either way, I'd like to add that if/when genocide enters the picture, you're no longer really dealing with just a sick culture, or an arrogant culture, or a prejudiced culture, but with a criminal culture. Which is not to say that it mightn't also be culturally sick, arrogant, and prejudiced. Obviously, to some degree, it almost has to be. My point is just that genocide isn't a problem that's responsive to witheringly harsh cultural critique. Because it's not really a cultural problem, at least as a principal matter. It creates them, for sure. And, theoretically, it might have been created by them, too. But if so, whatever else they may or may not be, they're definitely not "the biggest or most urgent or realest problem that either you and/or that culture got going on." Because that's genocide. And it just can't hurt to bear that in mind, really. I feel.



c2w? wrote:I was just writing poorly and failing to make my point.


I think you were just trying to place the emphasis on the real world criminality of genocide, as opposed to critiquing the culture from which the criminal genocide is originating, on practical grounds.

That matters of course, for a variety of reasons, not least of which is that genocide is not really the result of a sick, arrogant, and prejudiced culture but rather of a government manufacturing and/or taking advantage of a sick, arrogant, and prejudiced culture.

It's a difficult distinction to make, especially if the sick, arrogant, and prejudiced culture was itself a victm of genocide.

I think it's also worth bearing in mind that slow motion genocide that takes place over decades, with varying degrees of intensity, creates a context within which it's much harder to keep these things seperate.

eyeno wrote:... and i'll go away.


Please. We've heard that before. I think it's a fine idea though given your recent 3 day suspension for this post:


eyeno wrote:This is only complicated for those that do not pay attention, or pay with their attention, or intentionally seek to complicate the situation., and those that have no clue. Which of course includes just about everybody except a few astute RI readers.

Ever heard of the "Holy Land" where Jesus came from? Why, pray tell, do you think, that this god forsaken piece of shit rock land is the hottest property on the planet?

Answer: Bible Lore Value

We are building a new religion in which the Jews will be worshiped as Gods. Being an authentic Jewish person is not a criteria for being worshiped. Oh the contrary...Real Judaism is being destroyed as we speak and so is Christianity. The only criteria for being jewish in the future will be this >>>"being in the know"...and all other features will be erased. Same for Christians.

A new religion is being built right in front of your eyes. Behold its power. It is the religion of the future. Christianity has been bastardized into Israel worship. The future religion will be a whole world worshiping Israel and the chosen ones, which ironically, will have absolutely nothing at all to do with real actual Judaism at it's root form from thousands of years ago.

Sit back, relax, and watch it form on the wall all like a spider web because this is the plan.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=34598&start=15


I'd have just banned your ass.
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Re: Anti-Imperialism & Anti-Humanist Rhetoric of Gilad Atzmo

Postby AlicetheKurious » Tue May 08, 2012 7:37 am

barracuda wrote:
AlicetheKurious wrote:One reason why this thread is so unnecessarily long, is that for a while, it was plagued by AD's endless and repetitive copy-pastes.


Dishonest. Any reader who cares to make the effort might take a census of American Dream's copy-pastes versus your own and find that their number is very nearly equal. I keep in mind as well that it is American Dream's thread, and thus in keeping with his method of posting to various other, lengthy threads he has started such as "Economic Aspects of Love" or the "TIDS" thread. He's not actually doing anything here much different than what he usually does, but you're still complaining.


So, AD has a habit of posting the SAME, extremely long copy-pastes, over and over and over, in the same thread? And if so, it's wrong to 'complain' about that?

barracuda wrote:
AlicetheKurious wrote:For this, he was actually congratulated by barracuda,


You're still miffed about that, huh? Still footnoting it, even thirty pages later, that I committed the unforgivable sin of thanking AD? Well you just go ahead and hang on to that one, kid. It's a real keeper, and a nice insight into the kind of things that you focus on.


Actually, it provides a nice insight into the kind of things you like, but only when it's "your side" that does them.

barracuda wrote:
AlicetheKurious wrote:who complemented AD's "effective" method of "debate" by adding his own brand of vicious and totally baseless attacks against me and others, interspersed with total irrelevancies. That pretty much sums up most of his poisonous 'contribution' to the discussion.


Amazing, isn't it, how my gnat-like commentaries here have helped to tear the veil off your pious poses.


Your verbal abuse and hypocrisy and your baseless fantasy projections about my supposed secret inner self reveal more about you than they ever could about me. You keep trying to demonize me, and when I defend myself and ask you to provide any evidence at all to back up your libels, you then accuse me of pretending to be a saint/angel or "pious". I can't win, eh? Either I shut up and accept your abusive lies, or I'm conceited. Bullshit.

barracuda wrote:
AlicetheKurious wrote:I did not attempt to school a Jewish intellectual on Jewish law.


That's what I'd call it.


You would, but you'd be lying. I never claimed to have any expertise about Jewish law, or even much knowledge; instead, I provided several authoritative references and links. To counter them, c2w has only given her own, unsupported opinion. Asking her to provide credible references is not the same as attempting to school her on Jewish law.

barracuda wrote:
AlicetheKurious wrote:In case you hadn't noticed, "Compared2What?" is a user name, just like "AlicetheKurious"


What is this little factoid supposed to demonstrate? That you aren't real people with real backgrounds and histories? You spend roughly 70% of your time here trading on your Egyptian back-story and closeness to the Arab world, but somehow when it comes to dealing with the reality of compared2what?'s Jew-hood, now we're all just anonymous posters, blank slates whose opinions are nothing if not buttressed by citations, preferably citations which don't happen to conflict with your own well-known authoritativeness on all things Jewish.


Of course, we're real people with real backgrounds (at least, I assume so). But when it comes to making factual claims, citations from recognized, credible sources do, and should, carry much more weight than personal testimonials by anonymous posters. That's just common sense.

barracuda wrote:It apparently never occurs to you that the heinous crap you bandy about here about devious Jews attempting to rule the planet, or your attempts to spread the blame for the atrocities in Gaza over huge swaths of the Jewish population of the world, or your equivocations regarding the historicity of the holocaust (to mention a mere few examples out of the vastness of your stock-in-trade), might actually be felt on a personal level by a Jewish poster here on the board. This is the kind of crap I used to expect from Hugh, not Alice.


The atrocities in Gaza, and more than 65 years of ongoing crimes against humanity committed by Israel would not be possible without the active complicity of many different individuals around the world, who are driven by an ideology according to which 'tribal interests' supersede morality, loyalty to one's own country, international law, and basic principles of justice and human brotherhood. It is futile to try to stop these crimes without exposing those who make them possible, and without exposing the supremacist ideology they use to not only justify, but to sanctify them. In other words, the real lives of real, flesh-and-blood human beings are at stake. The personal feelings of a Jewish poster here on this board, important as they are, do not outweigh our responsibility to face reality, nor to the desperate victims of ongoing ethnic cleansing and genocide.

barracuda wrote:I've mentioned this before - I know c2w in real life.


I must have missed that, before. Funny, I actually suspected as much, but I told myself not to be paranoid.

barracuda wrote:You've had ample opportunities to make a good faith effort at understanding the particulars of the disagreement in question here. You won't budge. You're a fanatic. It's not some kind of a secret. ...


I think a fanatic is someone who ignores credible evidence that contradicts his or her prejudices, and who becomes hostile and abusive against those who present it. I think it's obvious, at least in this thread, who's been providing credible evidence to support their argument, and who has responded only with abuse and dishonest diversionary tactics.
"If you're not careful the newspapers will have you hating the oppressed and loving the people doing the oppressing." - Malcolm X
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Re: Anti-Imperialism & Anti-Humanist Rhetoric of Gilad Atzmo

Postby LolaB » Tue May 08, 2012 8:15 am

Alice -
you are my hero! Thanks for your patience, kindness and clarity in the face adversity.
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Re: Anti-Imperialism & Anti-Humanist Rhetoric of Gilad Atzmo

Postby brainpanhandler » Tue May 08, 2012 11:13 am

Alice wrote:I think a fanatic is someone who ignores credible evidence that contradicts his or her prejudices, and who becomes hostile and abusive against those who present it.


In 69 pages you've not budged on the slightest point, nor acknowledged the credibility of any countervailing evidence you've been offered, at all. Is it really possible that at no time in this thread the wisest thing for you to have done is engage in some self reflection and reevaluate some of your thinking? Really? Is it really possible that you are in possession of the only right, true and just point of view? Really? You can't see any plausible reason to critique Atzmon, at all? Have you tried to adopt other points of view, just to try to fully understand where others are coming from, if nothing else?

By way of contrast my experience of c2w is that she is ready to accept credible evicedence that contradicts her views and admit error without equivocation and apologize at the drop of a hat. It seems likely to me she is able to do this because she is secure about who she is.

Everyone, I assume, wants to see the oppression and murder stop. Silly to have to say that, but I guess it's not impossible to forget.

And I think there's been plenty of hostility and abusiveness to go around from all sides.

Alice wrote:I think it's obvious, at least in this thread, who's been providing credible evidence to support their argument


No, it's really not obvious at all. I'm guilty of allowing c2w to do some of my thinking for me, but I think I can be forgiven for that since she knows so much more than me in this area. You on the other hand strike me as someone that is so traumatized by the ongoing atrocities that you have become blinded, quite possibly by hatred, which is entirely understandable but sad to see.
"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." - Martin Luther King Jr.
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