Connecticut Elementary School Massacre

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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Massacre

Postby justdrew » Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:04 pm

lupercal wrote:^ The guntard conspiracies are part of the operation, just like the militia movement and Whitewater conspiracies that hamstrung Clinton for two terms but especially his second. Who profits when Obama is forced to drop everything and come up with totally divisive gun regulations, apart from the gun and ammo sellers who are making out like Midas? Obama's political enemies, that's who.


it is likely to cause problems on a subject we probably didn't need to see brought up. On the other hand though, universal background checks for any gun purchase anywhere is a good idea long over due. I don't think it needs to go much beyond that. The symbolic 'bans' look like silly posturing. The background checks might interfere with some actual violence.
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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Massacre

Postby justdrew » Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:07 pm

conniption wrote:
justdrew wrote:

Instead, all we get from our establishment press are hit pieces on those "conspiracy theorists" who dare to point out that, once again, the emperor is wearing no clothes.

maybe the boiling frog is also nude.


Maybe the boiling frog never claimed to have any clothes on.


lol, fair enough :thumbsup

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hop-Frog
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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Massacre

Postby lupercal » Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:17 pm

justdrew wrote:it is likely to cause problems on a subject we probably didn't need to see brought up.

Yes. It sucked the wind right out of Obama's post-election popularity and brought his legislative agenda to a dead halt. Now he's having trouble getting his appointments through Congress, like the rankest first termer, even a former freakin' republican like Hagel. It's humiliating. And the noise machine is going to play up the gun angle bigtime come 2014 which we might as well write off for a loss right now.

barracuda wrote:That's weird, because I had thought gun regulation was actually an issue we could sort of count on Democrats to embrace. Didn't a Democrat sign the last meaningful restrictions on assault weapons into law? Why yes, one did. Didn't a Democrat sign the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act? Why yes, one did.

If gun control is an issue Obama can't approach without personal or political suffering, too fucking bad for him. It's his fucking job.


Yes, it's his job, and he's doing it, even though he knows he'll pay a huge political price in 2014. Counterputz and Salon and the rest of the ratfuckers are probably working on their predicable hit pieces already . . . :snoring:
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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Massacre

Postby Canadian_watcher » Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:03 pm

barracuda wrote:
Canadian_watcher wrote:They are, in fact, 'reports from the media' since none of us knows their origin or veracity and each of us heard the evidence via.. you guessed it .. the media.


Well, several of those motives are drawn from the suicide notes of the shooters, but, yes, of course, they could be forgeries.

Image

But however you wanna play the solipsism game, it still doesn't lend credibility to the "plausible" deep state motivations expounded upon upstream by lupercal, as its applicability is ostensibly universal. In fact, it accomplishes just the opposite, because those motivations (politically damaging resignations, Hurricane Sandy political repercussions, Benghazi, small arms sales, etc.) are known to most of us almost exclusively through their media presence.

Luckily, that approach fits in neatly with your earlier thoughts on the matter.

Canadian_watcher wrote:I don't know what happened at the school and I'll never, ever look into it.


well, you've got the point in spite of yourself, really.

I'm not talking about *this* particular case - I'm talking about the fact that we cannot hope to ascribe motive to any crime merely by referencing the motives of other criminals, even if the crimes are similar. We can't do this because we would then have to go back and re-look at each of those cases to see if we really have the facts on those and if they match al the facts in the one we're comparing to. Even then, variables abound! This isn't like science - there are no repeatable and demonstrable outcomes even if the conditions in the lab are all set up exactly the same way. This is human nature - layer upon layer of it.
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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Massacre

Postby Canadian_watcher » Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:12 pm

justdrew wrote:
Canadian_watcher wrote:
justdrew wrote:
thank you for reminding us all that in truth we can know NOTHING about ANYTHING


That's not what I was saying. In cases of the 'news' though it's really just a giant game of telephone mixed in with political and personal agendas so we shouldn't get too cocky in our pronouncements about so called 'facts' of past cases, etc. let alone use those to try and debunk current questions about current cases.


yes, but... then how would you ever progress from 'questions' to decisions? Yes the news is often wrong, it's shitty, I would much prefer we crowd funded a multi billion dollar operation to but fact finders on the ground everywhere and run something like factopedia, but it's not happening yet. Even then there are going to be various persons pushing alternative truths and some things just can never be known with absolute certainty.

how does maintaining an isolating paranoid world view that doesn't accept consensus on anything ever going to lead to courses of action that improve anything?


I did miss this, so thanks 4th base for reposting and bolding.

I understand what you're saying, Justdrew. I ask myself this every day - where is the point at which I can be comfortable accepting that something is 'the truth.' ? I don't have an answer, really, outside of my judging the facts of my own personal experience. I of course do have to find a way to collect up 'truths' as they apply to the larger world just to get by day to day or else I'd be the guy with the filthy trench coat and the cart full of hobo supplies wandering down the middle of the boulevard. (well, the female version of that anyway)

To the last point - I think my worldview passed through a brief paranoid phase but it was very short-lived. Here on the other side of that I am back to finding that I trust more easily in those people and organizations that are transparent and whose stated agendas and actions match the most closely. And I long for some consensus, believe me. I don't think that my particular standpoint in and of itself *can* improve anything but I really don't think that believing the fear mongering and financial news and all the other snake-oil sales agents of the world can improve anything either. it hasn't thus far.

best I can hope for is that more people go through their own personal eye-opening experience(s) so that the veil lifts, the paranoia arrives and then recedes, and we can get down to the business of putting aside all bullshit. :)
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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Massacre

Postby barracuda » Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:28 pm

conniption wrote:I dunno, barracuda, maybe I will try it again, and you can copy and paste Len Colby's reply to Mr. Jeffries. It can save you some time.


I can't for the life of me imagine why I'd want to do that. As far as I can tell by his response, he doesn't know as much as I do.

lupercal wrote:Yes, it's his job, and he's doing it, even though he knows he'll pay a huge political price in 2014.


I don't get it. What exactly do you think political power is supposed to be for in this country? Is it to you merely a means to prolong itself? No. It is nothing if it's not a path to accomplish meaningful legislation. Less than nothing. And 2014? Seriously? You're worried about the House? C'mon.
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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Massacre

Postby barracuda » Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:29 pm

Canadian_watcher wrote:I'm not talking about *this* particular case - I'm talking about the fact that we cannot hope to ascribe motive to any crime merely by referencing the motives of other criminals, even if the crimes are similar.


I'm not ascribing a common motive beyond insanity. I'm pointing out that any motive for these types of mass murder is going to be unsatisfying, because no motive suffices to justify the action. None. Obviously, mass killers often feel they have a damn good reason for their actions. But you and I will likely not agree with them on that, because we're reasonable. Supposedly.
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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Massacre

Postby barracuda » Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:54 am

FWIW, here's the Frontline segment:

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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Massacre

Postby Jerky » Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:01 am

Barracuda! What are you trying to do, inject FACTS into this debate?!

For shame.

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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Massacre

Postby justdrew » Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:41 pm

The attacks by Beck, Anderson, snopes and the like are all part of the Cass Sunstein campaign to make "conspiracy theories" illegal.


that right there is a wild inversion. In truth, the sandyhoax proponents push a narrative that is EXACTLY what cognitive infiltration would look like in practice.
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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Massacre

Postby barracuda » Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:53 am

Facebook asked to take down pages abusing Sandy Hook victims

Numerous Facebook "tribute" pages that emerged after the Sandy Hook Elementary School massacre in December have turned into a convenient venting vehicle for those who contend the shooting never happened.

So U.S. Sens. Richard Blumenthal and Chris Murphy of Connecticut, both Democrats, and Democratic Rep. Elizabeth Esty -- who represents Newtown, Conn. -- asked Facebook to take down harassing or exploitative pages.

“Many [pages] give the appearance they were created by loved ones in the names of the victims,” the lawmakers wrote Monday. “Unfortunately, many of these pages have become vehicles for harassment, intimidation and possibly financial fraud.”

The Sandy Hook killings, which left 20 students and six school staffer members dead, has attracted “truthers” who contend the rampage either didn’t take place or was plotted by the government as an excuse to regulate guns.

Victims of the Aurora, Colo., theater rampage had a similar problem. Prosecutors said hoaxers “had impersonated victims and witnesses” and harassed survivors.

Donna Soto, the mother of slain Sandy Hook teacher Victoria Soto, created a tribute page for her daughter, mostly featuring remembrances and memorials.

In a recent post, she said: “God so many people in this world make me sick. Dont visit MY page if you have nothing nice to say and to those who do I THANK YOU.”

Another page devoted to surviving Sandy Hook teacher Kaitlin Roig, “Kaitlin Roig is a Hero,” drew a comment apparently from the teacher herself.

“To whomever started this page ... thank you. The positive messages are AMAZING,” the teacher wrote on Jan. 10. “Unfortunately coming on for the first time, I can't believe that anyone human would post such unkind words. Please, please cancel this page.”

The page never went down, and responses to her comment quickly turned negative. “hero? more like zero for lying to the country thats supposedly free,” one conspiracy theorist wrote.

Facebook responded to the lawmakers with a statement.

“We continue to work closely with his office, the families, and the foundation representing the victims of Sandy Hook to ensure that we respond as quickly as possible to concerns,” spokeswoman Jodi Seth said in the statement.

“For the past few months, our rapid response team has acted swiftly to remove inappropriate materials flagged by the foundation and the families. We will continue to be vigilant.”


http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nati ... 5130.story

Fake Newtown Facebook Pages Will Be Removed, Officials Confirm

Facebook officials have agreed to take down some unofficial tribute pages for victims of the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting after Connecticut lawmakers submitted a formal letter on Monday alerting the social media giant to the pages' exploitive nature.

Sens. Richard Blumenthal (D-Conn.) and Chris Murphy (D-Conn.) and Rep. Elizabeth Etsy (D-Conn.) said in the letter that several fraudulent, unofficial pages containing messages asking for money, as well as posts that harassed the Newtown shooting victims' families, were in direct violation of Facebook's user policies:

    It has come to our attention that Facebook has received multiple requests from grieving Newtown families to remove Facebook pages being used to harass them or to exploit their loss.
In the past several months, Facebook users have created hundreds of unofficial tribute pages dedicated to the victims of Sandy Hook. For example, The Greenwich Time reports over 100 tribute pages have been created using Victoria Soto’s name or likeness.

    Many give the appearance they were created by loved ones in the names of the victims. Unfortunately, many of these pages have become vehicles for harassment, intimidation and possibly financial fraud. 
Pages providing platforms for people to violate the privacy of families as they grieve, or seek financial gain through soliciting donations under false pretenses, or generating Facebook “likes” for marketing purposes, should not be given quarter in the Facebook community.

...

We ask that you direct your staff to remove the pages referred to in complaints by Donna Soto and Kaitlin Roig down for violating the above terms of service. If you do not believe these pages violate your terms of service, please detail in a written response why. If Facebook is already looking into this matter, please detail what you have done thus far to address the take-down requests from of Donna Soto and Kaitlin Roig. Our staff and we will be pleased to work with appropriate Facebook officials to address these issues affecting the Soto and Roig families, and others who may be affected by such abusive, unacceptable practices.

Blumenthal said that he received a phone call on Monday from Facebook representatives, confirming that they will begin the process of removing the pages immediately, the Associated Press reported.

"Certainly there have been many, too many, of these pages that are intimidating or harassing or exploitive," Blumenthal said. "I'm pleased that Facebook has responded positively."


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/2 ... 60116.html
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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Massacre

Postby DrEvil » Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:15 pm

but but but.! That's censorship! :shock:
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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Massacre

Postby MacCruiskeen » Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:58 pm

barracuda wrote:As fascinating as all these possible deep state motives are, there's no point in pretending insanity isn't a motive. You have to ignore a long history of extremely similar mass killings in order to do so.


Etc.

(Okay, that last one I sort of empathize with in terms of motivation for something, but not the killing of eight random people in a shopping mall. I mean, I basically say the same thing to myself each morning.)

Don't go looking for a "eureka" moment of understanding in these killings. There isn't one. The motivations of the insane are insanely opaque.

At the very least, it's nearly impossible to deny that something was very wrong with Adam Lanza from a fairly young age, and that his mother tried a variety of strategies in order to deal with his problems. And Ryan apparently knew enough about his brother's problems to realize right away that Adam may have killed their mother: "It was my brother. I think my mother is dead."

If Adam Lanza killed those people, if that's really is the way it happened, there is no motive that will make sense. There will be no scrap of information about his mother, about his schooling, about his gaming, or anything else that will come to light and cause anyone to say to themselves, "oh, NOW I get it, now I see why he slaughtered eighteen cowering six year old children." It won't happen, because nothing justifies these actions.


(^^Bold-type emphases added.)

I don't know why you insist on blurring the crystal-clear distinction between a motive and a justification, because you're surely aware of it. Many men and some women have been motivated to kill their partners out of jealousy. Lots of parents have been motivated to kill their babies because the kid just wouldn't shut up. Numerous fathers have been motivated to kill their daughter because she was dishonouring the family. Etcetera.

Any judge or jury would recognise these as motives, because that's what they clearly are. (Something moved those people to do what they did.) No judge and no jury (in the western world in the 21st century) would recognise them as justifications, because they clearly are no such thing. It's a simple and obvious and necessary distinction.

Not only did Adam Lanza have no justification for murdering 26 children and adults in that school, he had no plausible motive either -- none that hasn't been merely fantasised into existence by amateur psychologists with a low attention span. Anyone actually paying attention can see that the case against him is rudimentary (it consists -- so far at least -- mainly in the fact that he was found among the dead); that the entire case is a baffling and godawful mess, starting with Adam L's misidentification as Ryan L. and the "news" that Peter L had been murdered; that the FBI, the corporate media, and an untold number of discreetly anonymous "law enforcement sources" are doing their level best to spread rumours and disinformation about Adam Lanza; and that all this speculation and disinformation about the dead boy's alleged motives is precisely as Connecticut State Police Spokesman Paul J. Vance described it last week: hideous.

Still, barracuda, your suggestion does open up lots of fascinating new opportunities for wily and well-connected crooks. In fact, however, the opportunity was noticed long ago; it's just been becoming ever more popular in recent years. If you want to make someone a patsy for a heinous crime, all you have to do is make sure that the crime is heinous enough and that the patsy dies during or very shortly after the crime. No one will ask any serious questions, because, Hey, loonies do loony things! Case closed! It worked a treat with the quickly-late Lee Harvey Oswald, with the Nineteen Deathloving Superstudents (deceased), and, perhaps most implausibly of all, with the four dead "suicide bombers" of the London Tube, to name but twenty-four.

Like dead women, dead men tell no tales. Their lips are sealed.

- Flashback to the days when those silly old spooks still took quite unnecessary risks by leaving their patsies alive, and talkative:

The Maguire Seven

The Birmingham Six

The Guildford Four

^^All exonerated, sometimes after more than a decade in jail. Of course, if they had been "suicide killers", not one of those men and women would had their name cleared, ever. Because who's gonna bother clearing the name of a corpse? Not the corpse itself, that's for sure. And, in all likelihood, nobody else either. The most any prudent pundit will condescend to do post mortem is to psychoanalyse that damnably guilty corpse, often while insisting (simultaneously) that there's simply no fathoming the deep dark mysteries of the black human heart*. QED.

*If we're taught that the human heart is not just imponderably deep but incorrigibly dark, who benefits from that teaching? I think we should be told. (Not that the answer isn't obvious.)
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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Massacre

Postby The Consul » Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:19 pm

MacC wrote
Killed 8, shot himself in the head. Motive: tired of this meaningless existence and the constant disappointment.
Etc.

(Okay, that last one I sort of empathize with in terms of motivation for something, but not the killing of eight random people in a shopping mall. I mean, I basically say the same thing to myself each morning.)


Just as positive numbers stretch into infinity, so too do negative. When Kafka said the world order was based upon a lie, he wasn't just talking about the fin de siecle consciousness that left his work unfinished and unpublished in his life, the works at life's end he would have thrown into the fires as were his sisters lives dispensed in Theresienstadt or the crematoria at Auschwitz. Surely, he would preferred his sisters had been spared and not his manuscripts. Even I, as much as I love his writing, wish that. As far as what we say to ourselves at the beginning of each day, somewhere F suggested that each day he tried to let his feet land on a new world, and since disappointment is a condition of desire, one can marvel as well at loss, though not as jubilantly, as one does at triumph, for they are both the subjects of will and carry through the generations the curse of our genius. The grayest sky can still be a canvass for the highest birds. How we must envy the way they lead themselves and each other, even how the salmon ecstatically rise in death to sparkle from the river bed in that dimension in which they could never dream, the air we breath, the millennial symphonics of life. And though a psychopath might look at the mutilated bodies in an Aleppo doorway with the same kind of fascination we view cactus flowers impossibly fast blossoming in the desert rain, we are still both human.

The dead pass through us if we give them the chance. There is no reason why any of us should hold only one look at the world. The blind know a different flight than those with sight. But where we begin to burn is not in the moment of our fear, but in our conditioning to judge. My own self loathing is probably the most intricate construction in my neural network. . But I am hacking into it. It's like years ago I read a book called With Enough Shovels and I just didn't see the point of it - of anything - of you me it they them history culture whatever. But I am hacking into it. I am, as it were, (as I hope many of us here can be) - my own personal Wau Holland. The thoroughly stupid thing we do, as Oscar Wilde said, usually comes from the noblest motivation. That is where the self loathing comes in - it can take the edge off. I mean, who the fuck do we think we are, anyway - God?
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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Massacre

Postby Canadian_watcher » Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:13 pm

I'm watching that Frontline piece right now and have gotten to the 17 minute mark or so. I have to write my thoughts at this time.

It seems like they are trying to portray what I consider to be somewhat 'normal' behaviour as abnormal. The picture I'm getting from the subtext (which I assume is unintended on the part of the Frontline producers) is that Nancy Lanza might have been a hypochondriac, Munchausen-by-Proxy type of helicopter mother and for predictable reasons all the other adults in Adam's world believed her over her son.
So far it's a stretch .. and it seems to me to be demonizing my type of character, which is the type that hates crowds, loud noises, too much physical contact. I'm absolutely sane in the non-violent sense, and I'd argue absolutely sane in *my* environment. Where I struggle is when I can barely move for the throng of people or where five or six obnoxious sensory blasts are happening simultaneously. This should not be considered abnormal... has anyone ever considered how fucking braindead you have to be to get through those types of situations routinely without any degree of stress??
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift
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