Connecticut Elementary School Massacre

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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Massacre

Postby barracuda » Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:17 pm

MacCruiskeen wrote:I don't know why you insist on blurring the crystal-clear distinction between a motive and a justification, because you're surely aware of it.


I didn't mean to blur any distinctions. My apologies if that's what happened.

As I pointed out in my list above, lots of people have been motivated to mass murder random persons largely and completely unknown to them on the basis of no or right-next-to-no pretext whatsoever. Within the field of mass murderers, it's common for the motive to be very nearly without meaning. I have no doubt that a variety of possible motives will be posited for the shootings in Connecticut - some have been suggested already: Nancy was going to move Adam to yet another new school, Nancy had a new boyfriend, Adam was jealous in some way of the children, Adam hated to be touched and would get angry, etc. What I am saying is that when Lt. Vance announces the police theory or theories as to the "why" of the actions of Adam Lanza (and we know he will), no matter what they are based upon, from the flimsiest to the most firm groundings, the motive put forth will not satisfy us in terms of a justification. And it will then be ripe for dismissal and mockery from those for whom no evidence is enough and any motive ridiculous enough to discount. I mean, I fully expect and understand that. But any motive for such a killing is going to sound absurd. It is the provence of the insane to shoot one's mother four times in the head and slaughter random children. So in the end, if motivation is tied to mental disorder, I won't be surprised.

I expect the motive to eventually have to do with jealousy, myself, given the extreme passion of the first killing. Nancy Lanza was a very attractive, very rich woman with a twenty-year-old son. She had just returned from a two day trip here:

Image

...during which she left her troubled son to his own devices. I'd be very surprised if she didn't attract the attentions of men. But that's purely free speculation from me, in the same way that lupercal is free to speculate that this was a covert op to keyword highjack Hurricane Sandy or false flag to distract from the pressures of the Benghazi attacks. I consider such conjecture to be a useless groping for meaning where there may be none we can fathom, though.

Adam Lanza was found in the school dressed to kill, in possession of the weapons which shot the dead and wounded. These weapons were found to belong to his slain mother's collection of firearms. He was found dead from a self-inflicted wound to the head. He had a well known history of mental problems, of school difficulties, of issues of socialization, and yet his mother felt it was a good idea to familiarize him with the handling of guns. You can only dismiss this record by positing a massive conspiracy, which you and the Hookers of the free world are free to do. More than free, I'd say - obligated, more like, by the knowledge of the conspiracies known to us in fact. Your incredulity is a service, and I thank you for it, if only in that it allows me to evaluate my own thoughts on the matter under the light of your suspicions.
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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Massacre

Postby Canadian_watcher » Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:24 pm

okay and at about the 18 minute mark they show a few photos. Is it just me, or does the group one look really odd? the shadow on what would be adam's right arm shouldn't be there, and the lighting on just him seems wrong. looks photoshopped, iow. AND, where is he standing in the other two photos? The lighting is magnificent, and the writing on the wall behind him appears to be the letters "TV" ... where would those two letters appear next to each other? what word could it be?
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Massacre

Postby barracuda » Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:27 pm

Canadian_watcher wrote:So far it's a stretch .. and it seems to me to be demonizing my type of character, which is the type that hates crowds, loud noises, too much physical contact. I'm absolutely sane in the non-violent sense, and I'd argue absolutely sane in *my* environment. Where I struggle is when I can barely move for the throng of people or where five or six obnoxious sensory blasts are happening simultaneously. This should not be considered abnormal... has anyone ever considered how fucking braindead you have to be to get through those types of situations routinely without any degree of stress??


Lots of people enjoy being around lots of people. If they didn't, a crowd would never form.

Canadian_watcher wrote:AND, where is he standing in the other two photos? The lighting is magnificent, and the writing on the wall behind him appears to be the letters "TV" ... where would those two letters appear next to each other? what word could it be?


Are you reading the thread? This has already been answered.
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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Massacre

Postby lupercal » Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:05 am

barracuda wrote: He had a well known history of mental problems, of school difficulties, of issues of socialization, and yet his mother felt it was a good idea to familiarize him with the handling of guns. You can only dismiss this record by positing a massive conspiracy


What record? Apparently the Frontline producers came up with documentation for an Asberger's diagnosis and something called SID ("Lanza was diagnosed with sensory integration disorder (SID) as a young boy," source: http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national ... nce/62317/ ). Neither is linked to violent behavior and SID is not even a mental illness per the DSM (same link). That leaves the Asberger's diagnosis, which hardly adds up to a "well known history of mental problems," despite the strenuous spinning of numerous rumor-mongers and mind-minders whose coordinated exertions do appear to be nothing if not "a massive conspiracy."
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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Massacre

Postby Canadian_watcher » Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:20 am

barracuda wrote:
Canadian_watcher wrote:So far it's a stretch .. and it seems to me to be demonizing my type of character, which is the type that hates crowds, loud noises, too much physical contact. I'm absolutely sane in the non-violent sense, and I'd argue absolutely sane in *my* environment. Where I struggle is when I can barely move for the throng of people or where five or six obnoxious sensory blasts are happening simultaneously. This should not be considered abnormal... has anyone ever considered how fucking braindead you have to be to get through those types of situations routinely without any degree of stress??


Lots of people enjoy being around lots of people. If they didn't, a crowd would never form.


Not necessarily true, and not counter to my point in any way if it were.

Canadian_watcher wrote:AND, where is he standing in the other two photos? The lighting is magnificent, and the writing on the wall behind him appears to be the letters "TV" ... where would those two letters appear next to each other? what word could it be?


Are you reading the thread? This has already been answered.[/quote]

no, I hadn't been, so thank you. I had thought that the Frontline piece was new and that those photos were 'obtained exclusively by' the program (since that's what it claimed,0 so I didn't think it would have been dissected yet. quite a fancy program, really - but we hear it's a monied town so I suppose that's not so odd.
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Massacre

Postby beeline » Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:29 am

MacCruiskeen wrote:[
Not only did Adam Lanza have no justification for murdering 26 children and adults in that school, he had no plausible motive either -- none that hasn't been merely fantasised into existence by amateur psychologists with a low attention span.


Bullshit. Or you've never been the weird kid that got picked on in grade school or high school. That's motive enough.
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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Massacre

Postby barracuda » Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:50 am

lupercal wrote:
barracuda wrote: He had a well known history of mental problems, of school difficulties, of issues of socialization, and yet his mother felt it was a good idea to familiarize him with the handling of guns. You can only dismiss this record by positing a massive conspiracy


What record? Apparently the Frontline producers came up with documentation for an Asberger's diagnosis and something called SID ("Lanza was diagnosed with sensory integration disorder (SID) as a young boy," source: http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national ... nce/62317/ ). Neither is linked to violent behavior and SID is not even a mental illness per the DSM (same link). That leaves the Asberger's diagnosis, which hardly adds up to a "well known history of mental problems," despite the strenuous spinning of numerous rumor-mongers and mind-minders whose coordinated exertions do appear to be nothing if not "a massive conspiracy."


I agree there's nothing in Adam's history that points to potential violence. He is noted as becoming angry when touched, but beyond that, nothing. But his history of mental problems is well documented, if not well diagnosed.

    Age four - Nancy issuing directives not to touch Adam because he becomes upset and angry.

    Age six - Nancy is worried that perhaps Adam had some kind of neuro-biological condition.

    Indeterminate, elementary school - Adam is described as having Sensory Integration Disorder. He is "coded" at school, evaluated by the school system as disabled, and takes part in special programs in an Individual Education Plan.

    Middle school - diagnosed with Aspergers. Special program set up for Adam. He was under the supervision of Newtown schools but he would do some of his work off-site and at home and then he would later return to the school when the rest of the students weren’t there.

    Taken out of the public school system and into St. Rose of Lima.

    2006 - Adam attends Newtown High School and receives special education help. Described as nervous, fearful of others, withdrawn.

    2008 - Nancy removes Adam from high school.

    Age 16 - Adam begins taking classes at Western Connecticut State University.

    2009 - Adam leaves Western. This is the end of Adam Lanza on the public record as far as we know.

That's the history, as we know it. None of this was a secret from the Lanza's friends, family or school officials. There were efforts made throughout his life to help him with his difficulties.
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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Massacre

Postby 82_28 » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:32 pm

So then simply the ease in which he wasn't brought up with readily available guns and have practiced with them would have done the trick? Makes sense to me. Like all of us who have post adolescent angst, he probably would have grown out of it.
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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Massacre

Postby Julian the Apostate » Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:19 pm

I am torn between sympathy for, and anger at, the mom. On one hand she must have been at wits end with what to do with him. OTOH, why on earth would she familiarize him with guns? He didn't really have a history of VIOLENT behavior per se, right? Just nervous, withdrawn, etc? So maybe she hoped the guns would give him some kind of outlet for his "anger", never dreaming he would do what he did? The whole gun angle itself is weird, because at first glance she doesn't seem to at all fit the profile of someone who would have guns in her home, let alone an AR-15.

She also left him alone for days at a time. She doesn't seem to have been a very responsible person. It appears she unwittingly stoked this fire for years then threw a gas can into it before skipping town for a vaca. Out of sight out of mind, but reality came back with a vengence when she got home...

I wonder if the father saw something like this coming. Do we know the details of their divorce?

I apologize if any of this has already been discussed, I have not been following the thread and 60 pages is a lot to go digging through...
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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Massacre

Postby barracuda » Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:58 pm

Julian the Apostate wrote:I am torn between sympathy for, and anger at, the mom. On one hand she must have been at wits end with what to do with him. OTOH, why on earth would she familiarize him with guns? He didn't really have a history of VIOLENT behavior per se, right? Just nervous, withdrawn, etc? So maybe she hoped the guns would give him some kind of outlet for his "anger", never dreaming he would do what he did? The whole gun angle itself is weird, because at first glance she doesn't seem to at all fit the profile of someone who would have guns in her home, let alone an AR-15.


Nancy was trained to shoot by her father. The Cub Scout troop Adam and Ryan were part of shot rifles as a group activity, so Adam had been shooting guns with some regularity since he was around eight. Adam admired and wished to emulate his uncle, a military man and police captain, and his mother encouraged this. But she was a proud gun enthusiast on her own. The guns used in the school killings were purchased by Nancy in 2010.

Newtown apparently has a deep community gun culture. The National Shooting Sports Foundation is headquartered there. There are private shooting ranges within the town borders. The town attempted to pass an ordinance outlawing the discharging of weapons within the town outside of legitimate hunting or at a legitimate shooting range. It was voted down just before the shootings occurred.

Do we know the details of their divorce?


Not really. Peter Lanza left the home in 2001, never to return. They were divorced in 2009, and split the season tickets to the Red Sox as part of the arrangements.
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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Massacre

Postby Julian the Apostate » Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:20 pm

barracuda wrote:
Julian the Apostate wrote:
Do we know the details of their divorce?


Not really. Peter Lanza left the home in 2001, never to return. They were divorced in 2009, and split the season tickets to the Red Sox as part of the arrangements.


Makes you wonder if he just couldn't be bothered to deal with Adam anymore. It sounds like he didn't even try to get custody or regular visitation rights or anything.

Sounds like two dickheads ended up being parents to something they couldn't control, they both tried to bury their heads in the sand about it, and BOOM. Of course, they most likely could never have imagined what would end up happening....
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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Massacre

Postby solace » Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:07 pm

"That's the history, as we know it. None of this was a secret from the Lanza's friends, family or school officials. There were efforts made throughout his life to help him with his difficulties."

And, it's a fairly innocuous history as these things go. Certainly, hordes of other people have had far worse "histories," and not resorted to what happened here.
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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Massacre

Postby barracuda » Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:21 pm

Agree. I was probably wrong to cite insanity as a motive per se when what I really meant was that the motives of the insane are generally inscrutable. The mentally ill are generally no more or less violent than the rest of us. Mental problems =/= violent tendencies, unless the mental problems present as characteristcally aligned with a history of a response of anger to normative situations. And though we do have some semblance of that history here, I don't doubt that a specific triggering event or series of events will be found to have lead to this shooting.
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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Massacre

Postby Canadian_watcher » Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:29 pm

solace wrote:"That's the history, as we know it. None of this was a secret from the Lanza's friends, family or school officials. There were efforts made throughout his life to help him with his difficulties."

And, it's a fairly innocuous history as these things go. Certainly, hordes of other people have had far worse "histories," and not resorted to what happened here.


yes, exactly.

I see nothing to warrant this: "Obviously, this kid had major issues and was going to explode from them one day." Which is clearly the motive that is being setup.

You'll notice that in barracuda's run down of Adam's "documented" problems, most of them originate with the mother, who I think might have had some issues herself. There's as much evidence of that as there is of Adam's issues, at least.
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift
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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Massacre

Postby Canadian_watcher » Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:31 pm

barracuda wrote:Agree. I was probably wrong to cite insanity as a motive per se when what I really meant was that the motives of the insane are generally inscrutable. The mentally ill are generally no more or less violent than the rest of us. Mental problems =/= violent tendencies, unless the mental problems present as characteristcally aligned with a history of a response of anger to normative situations. And though we do have some semblance of that history here, I don't doubt that a specific triggering event or series of events will be found to have lead to this shooting.


thank you for that, at least.

I do wonder why you have no doubt that a series of triggering events will be found, though. Is it just because 'they' always manage to piece together some bullshit 'triggering' series of events?
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift
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