Abolish the White Race - By Any Means Necessary

[Joe Hillshoist]

Its a construct. There are northern Europeans, and Irish and English (of varying ancestries some of which go back a long way), Southern Europeans, Eastern Eurpoeans and all of those groups are made of a variety of different cultures. "Whiteness" ignores that and lumps them all together under a convenient label that is easy to manipulate for political purposes. Its a form of racism in itself usually used by far right nationalists who want to build a power base based on hate and anger and other easily eaten emotions.

Blackness in the US is different because of the essential dispossession that led to to the civil rights movement and slavery. the term "African American" exists because its hard for individuals who are black in the US to access their ancestry.

Plenty of white people understand and acknowledge their particular heritage without having to delve into the cesspool of "white raceness". They know where they came from and how they got to where they are now. Europe is a multicultural continent, not a homogeneous one. The people that want all white people to see themselves as one race don't give a fuck about the actual heritage of the people they are trying to recruit. That is as good a reason as any to abolish the "white race".

[82_28]

It's funny I have yet to check out this thread until now. Anyway, there are no races. There are racists but no races. In fact as far as species level demarcation we're all earthlings.

[jakell]

Its a construct. There are northern Europeans, and Irish and English (of varying ancestries some of which go back a long way), Southern Europeans, Eastern Eurpoeans and all of those groups are made of a variety of different cultures. "Whiteness" ignores that and lumps them all together under a convenient label that is easy to manipulate for political purposes. Its a form of racism in itself usually used by far right nationalists who want to build a power base based on hate and anger and other easily eaten emotions.

Blackness in the US is different because of the essential dispossession that led to to the civil rights movement and slavery. the term "African American" exists because its hard for individuals who are black in the US to access their ancestry.

Plenty of white people understand and acknowledge their particular heritage without having to delve into the cesspool of "white raceness". They know where they came from and how they got to where they are now. Europe is a multicultural continent, not a homogeneous one. The people that want all white people to see themselves as one race don't give a fuck about the actual heritage of the people they are trying to recruit. That is as good a reason as any to abolish the "white race".

Certainly, but would you agree that it is both real and a social construct? A social construct can be real you know, unless we are going to a close look at reality is:

Biologically speaking, there’s no such thing as race.

Like I always say, the only reason the concept of "race" even persists is all these assholes who insist on walking around with their eyes open.

Edit: I'll revise my opinions of Joel if, somehow, "biologically speaking" implies something different from, you know, scientifically speaking.

I find the simplistic dichotomy "Is race real, or a social construct?" used on both sides of the divide (ie the race deniers, and the race 'realists'). The inadequacy of a supposed dichotomy can be used to make an opponent's position look erroneous, as it does one's own, but this latter get downplayed

My answer for a while now has been " it is both real and a social construct". Enough people seem to recognise someone's race, with little to no prompting, to make it real enough.

[kool maudit]

Honestly, this is all very messy. The structure here is a rhetorical call to abolish a race and then when you swing your head around to engage the claim it retreats into a lot of wooly stuff about systems and constructs and things that don't, on their surface, appear substantial enough to support a call as pointed as the one in the thread's title.

You are correct about the strangeness of the "white" definition given European history, Joe. But there are many of us who, as people, will be termed "white" in any situation or jurisdiction where this fragment of New World/colonial history is used as an identifier. The term, when employed colloquially, refers to PEOPLE. I am "white", regardless of whether I want to "own" that or not, and walks through Kampala or Shanghai are not events that encourage a purely theoretical use of the term. "Feels real enough in enough real-world situations" is essentially what I'm saying.

If this thread's title were to be the theme of a large-scaled event, my safety would near-certainly be in question.

Calling for the abolishment of the white race and then instantly retreating into the fictitious nature of race or the illusory construct of whiteness is sleazy. The language goes too quickly from pointed and violent to academic and definition-based for coherence.

This is a bad slogan and a bad thread.

[82_28]

Funny. I was about to type some other bit of nonsense and I had comedy central on in the background and a commercial for this film came up. Which is about to be released or already is.

[Joe Hillshoist]

It's funny I have yet to check out this thread until now. Anyway, there are no races. There are racists but no races. In fact as far as species level demarcation we're all earthlings.

Exactly and white power and its associated guff is an attempt to disconnect people from their actual heritage and replace it with a fiction that is easy to manipulate.

[82_28]

There's a lot of racist hicks who would be proud to be where you're from, Kool!

[jakell]

It's funny I have yet to check out this thread until now. Anyway, there are no races. There are racists but no races. In fact as far as species level demarcation we're all earthlings.

Exactly and white power and its associated guff is an attempt to disconnect people from their actual heritage and replace it with a fiction that is easy to manipulate.

You are fabricating here

As above, do you believe that race can be real and a social construct?

[Joe Hillshoist]

Honestly, this is all very messy. The structure here is a rhetorical call to abolish a race and then when you swing your head around to engage the claim it retreats into a lot of wooly stuff about systems and constructs and things that don't, on their surface, appear substantial enough to support a call as pointed as the one in the thread's title.

You are correct about the strangeness of the "white" definition given European history, Joe. But there are many of us who, as people, will be termed "white" in any situation or jurisdiction where this fragment of New World/colonial history is used as an identifier. The term, when employed colloquially, refers to PEOPLE. I am "white", regardless of whether I want to "own" that or not, and walks through Kampala or Shanghai are not events that encourage a purely theoretical use of the term. "Feels real enough in enough real-world situations" is essentially what I'm saying.

If this thread's title were to be the theme of a large-scaled event, my safety would near-certainly be in question.

Calling for the abolishment of the white race and then instantly retreating into the fictitious nature of race or the illusory construct of whiteness is sleazy. The language goes too quickly from pointed and violent to academic and definition-based for coherence.

This is a bad slogan and a bad thread.

Work thru it. There is no race. White people aren't a race. Its a convenient term invented by Europeans to justify colonialism and the sense of superiority it conveyed but also to drag everyone else into the ruling classes mission to steal as much stuff from the rest of the world as they could as quickly as they could. Its not saying abolish white people. My mum's white even if I'm not.

If you feel unsafe in non European cities (or even European ones) because of the colour of your skin i can empathise because I've been there in my home - in my country.

But if you think that suddenly now that's a bad thing where the hell were you when I couldn't go work in some Australian towns cos the cops liked to hang uppity blackfellas using their belts and calling it suicide? Its always been like that but now you're upset cos it might suddenly effect you? Cos you've lost your immunity? Is that what you're saying?

[Joe Hillshoist]

It's funny I have yet to check out this thread until now. Anyway, there are no races. There are racists but no races. In fact as far as species level demarcation we're all earthlings.

Exactly and white power and its associated guff is an attempt to disconnect people from their actual heritage and replace it with a fiction that is easy to manipulate.

You are fabricating here

As above, do you believe that race can be real and a social construct?

I'm fabricating am I?

There is one race - the human one.

The "white race" is a social construct based on different melanin levels in human skin.

If our skin looked green would you be saying the light green was a real race?

[jakell]

It's funny I have yet to check out this thread until now. Anyway, there are no races. There are racists but no races. In fact as far as species level demarcation we're all earthlings.

Exactly and white power and its associated guff is an attempt to disconnect people from their actual heritage and replace it with a fiction that is easy to manipulate.

You are fabricating here

As above, do you believe that race can be real and a social construct?

I'm fabricating am I?

There is one race - the human one.

The "white race" is a social construct based on different melanin levels in human skin.

If our skin looked green would you be saying the light green was a real race?

By fabricating I mean all the extra stuff you are dragging in.

Do you believe that race can be real and a social construct?

[kool maudit]

Joe, I understand the first part of what you're saying. It's a stupid signifier. As for the second part, I would hope that you would assume, as a longtime RI participant if nothing else, that I am opposed to the horrors you mention as well. I am not so limited, so blindered, so fucking inhumane as to see events, constructions, words, actions that affect my group as worse than those that affect others.

Come on, man. Why would you assume that about me? It's a hostile assumption, wouldn't you say?

I did not feel unsafe in the two wonderful cities I mentioned. I only felt that most people there saw me as "white". Not in a bad way, but... it was there. That's the world. That's the history we have.

But this thread title is hostile. And to immediately respond to a statement about its bald hostility with some pretty academic theory (or worse, imputations of bigotry on my part) exposes its dishonest construction: it wants the revolutionary, justice-hungry fervor of a cry for blood while retreating to a bland world of theory once addressed.

And that's bad. That's sneaky. That's low.

[82_28]

Only a social construct. Purely. I took a whole class at the University of Colorado that the sociology professor had a whole class debunking the then popular Bell Curve. Not like I needed any persuasion but his take on it was fierce. Same with Ward Churchill of the same school. Racism knows no bounds. It sucks that Churchill got fired and got no where in courts for his wrongful termination. I wish he would have doubled down with it being ultimately an "inside job". But that was crazy talk back then and that's why we all find ourselves at RI. I forget all the ins and outs of how it played out back in the day.

If you need a refresher on the book The Bell Curve

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bell_Curve

It bears note that whoever is editing that wiki is in favor of the book to not make it seem as racist as it is.

[jakell]

Only a social construct. Purely. I took a whole class at the University of Colorado that the sociology professor had a whole class debunking the then popular Bell Curve. Not like I needed any persuasion but his take on it was fierce. Same with Ward Churchill of the same school. Racism knows no bounds. It sucks that Churchill got fired and got no where in courts for his wrongful termination. I wish he would have doubled down with it being ultimately an "inside job". But that was crazy talk back then and that's why we all find ourselves at RI. I forget all the ins and outs of how it played out back in the day.

If you need a refresher on the book The Bell Curve

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bell_Curve

It bears note that whoever is editing that wiki is in favor of the book to not make it seem as racist as it is.

Good. Would you agree that the social construct of race seems to exist solidly in the minds of many many people, and they tend to recognise it without a moments thought ? We're not just talking about racists here, far from it, but also people who are neutral on the topic (and those who wish to use the concept to positive ends, eg positive discrimination).

We were holding this up against things that are said to be real here, but I would say that the above fits a working description of 'real' (not an absolute one, which can turn into a snark hunt) , as I said earlier 'it's real enough'

[Joe Hillshoist]

It's funny I have yet to check out this thread until now. Anyway, there are no races. There are racists but no races. In fact as far as species level demarcation we're all earthlings.

Exactly and white power and its associated guff is an attempt to disconnect people from their actual heritage and replace it with a fiction that is easy to manipulate.

You are fabricating here

As above, do you believe that race can be real and a social construct?

I'm fabricating am I?

There is one race - the human one.

The "white race" is a social construct based on different melanin levels in human skin.

If our skin looked green would you be saying the light green was a real race?

By fabricating I mean all the extra stuff you are dragging in.

Do you believe that race can be real and a social construct?

Its a badly framed question.

There is one race. The human one.

The "white race' isn't a real physical thing. Its an idea, its only real in that it exists inside peoples heads.

if you think "real" and a "social construct" have the same weight then you're mistaken - they don't. so no. Race is either real or a social construct cos its the same word used to describe 2 different things. They shouldn't be confused with each other.

The word is used to delineate the border between humanity and the rest of the animal kingdom. If people think its real and a social construct its because they thinks some humans aren't as human as others.

Ok I read 82s comment and I agree. Although he's called it a social construct and I've called it a real thing as in race = species.