Anthrax suspect dies in apparent suicide

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Postby Elvis » Mon Aug 04, 2008 2:35 pm

JackRiddler, thanks for pointing out the nine-year span between the Zack incident and the 2001 events:

Zack[...]was caught[...]in 1992, nine years before 2001. The anthrax of 2001 would have had to have been processed within the two years before. It's hard to construct a more tenuous link.


I feel pretty stupid now for not considering the passage of nine years and letting the Zack 'angle' bug me all this time.

And I agree:

The obsession with Zack seems to be more "Find-the-Jew" bullshit


---while remembering that sometimes people just leap to conclusions, as I did. :oops: My aim is to post only if I think I have something useful to contribute; I jumped the gun on Zack, but my query was answered---thanks.
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Postby JackRiddler » Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:49 pm

.

Well, there is a possible Zack angle in that letters blaming his old target Asaad (sp?) as an anthrax suspect were sent in 2001, and that might still be the "Camel Club" of Zack and colleagues at work - or, however, anyone else that wanted a link to an Arab scientist. I think it likely Zack or friends were behind the letters blaming Asaad, but that this also shows them as not having been part of the actual operation (since they couldn't actually make Asaad a "person of interest.")

I think the key is to understand it as a psyop - letters to Democratic leaders who were in a position to do something about 9/11 and USA PATRIOT (not that they really contemplated it, of course, but there were in that position). Making the message clear: back off the new "unitary executive." Fall in line on "War on Terror" and the "Homeland" program. You, the Senate, are powerless now - vote yes on PATRIOT and go home for Thanksgiving while men in biohazard suits take apart your offices for a few months.

It's not so important who specifically did the mailings, but how the terror stemming from the mailings was wildly exaggerated and amplified in the post-9/11 environment. And who was doing the using, who provided the false accusations against Iraq and "al-Qaeda" (as though they were interchangeable), who provided the cover for what was presumably a team operation. Scaring the media by killing at least one of their own and ending the 9/11 investigation by the FBI were icing on the cake - again, simply to remove these as potential threats to the new order, even though neither the media nor the FBI ever intended to pose a threat.

I think the Wellstone plane crash a year later was almost certainly part of the same thrust, happening to hit the only senator up for reelection who also voted against the Iraq resolution exactly on the last day when his name would be pulled off the ballot if he died - and his wife and daughter, and almost Kennedy in the package. What can we know, but I see the outlines of the coup running from anthrax to the Wellstone crash to the Iraq invasion, after which the spell started breaking and the program kept going on inertia.

But in the end, the evidence on the anthrax is tightly in the hands of the investigating authorities - they can basically control everything that is presented about this case, something they cannot do with the far more complex machinations around Sept. 11 itself.
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Postby chiggerbit » Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:32 pm

Ok, this timing is really weird:

"...Zack left Fort Detrick in December 1991, after a controversy over allegations of unprofessional behavior by Zack, Rippy, Brown and others who worked in the pathology division. They had formed a clique that was accused of harassing the Egyptian-born Assaad, who later sued the Army, claiming discrimination.

Assaad said he had believed the harassment was behind him until last October, until after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

He said that is when the FBI contacted him, saying someone had mailed an anonymous letter - a few days before the existence of anthrax-laced mail became known - naming Assaad as a potential bioterrorist. FBI agents decided the note was a hoax after interviewing Assaad...."
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Postby justdrew » Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:36 pm

chiggerbit wrote:Ok, this timing is really weird:

"...Zack left Fort Detrick in December 1991, after a controversy over allegations of unprofessional behavior by Zack, Rippy, Brown and others who worked in the pathology division. They had formed a clique that was accused of harassing the Egyptian-born Assaad, who later sued the Army, claiming discrimination.

Assaad said he had believed the harassment was behind him until last October, until after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

He said that is when the FBI contacted him, saying someone had mailed an anonymous letter - a few days before the existence of anthrax-laced mail became known - naming Assaad as a potential bioterrorist. FBI agents decided the note was a hoax after interviewing Assaad...."


yeah, eg-Zack-ly - seemed fairly clear cut to me. Where is he now anyway? Doing his damnedest to disappear would be my bet. I wonder if Ivins had anything to do with Zack's "clique"? I'm guessing no. Ivins played music, that alone seems to me to put him well outside the typical profiles for this kind of thing.
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Postby chiggerbit » Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:39 pm

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Postby chiggerbit » Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:55 pm

Another 2001 article:

http://www.aztlan.net/starofd.htm
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Postby Jeff » Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:57 pm

Exclusive: Government's Purported 'Anthrax Killer' Was a Registered Democrat

Bruce E. Ivins, reportedly on the verge of being indicted for capital murder in the anthrax killings, was a registered Democrat, according to the Fredrick County, MD Board of Elections. He had been registered there since 1982 and records indicate that he voted in "every election since 1996," including Democratic primaries, according to the official who responded to a request from West Virginia-based radio host Bob Kincaid.

...

http://www.bradblog.com/?p=6245
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Postby Wilbur Whatley » Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:58 am

Three days now in the news, and every day a crude slander on Ivins from the U.S. government. This has got to be the crudest frame job I've ever seen. It's obvious to me that a guy like Ivins would not attack people like Senators Leahy and Daschle, even if he were a homicidal maniac, which he obviously was not.

Who would be the biggest benefactor of an attack on Leahy and Daschle? Surprise! The FBI!! Which already had the Patriot Act ready on the shelf to impose fascist police measures within a few hours of 9/11.

Oh the stink!

I wonder if we'll ever have the real culprits. I think it all goes to Cheney and Addington.
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Postby barracuda » Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:06 am

Wilbur Whatley wrote:I wonder if we'll ever have the real culprits.

With the extremely limited number of individuals having access to this particular strain of bio-warfare technology it is a virtual certainty that the culprit is known and has been known all along by those with the ability to enforce the law. I don't have the link right now, but I believe the Times put the number of possibles at ten.
The most dangerous traps are the ones you set for yourself. - Phillip Marlowe
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Postby Elvis » Tue Aug 05, 2008 3:09 am

Ivins played music, that alone seems to me to put him well outside the typical profiles for this kind of thing.


Nothing against Ivins, but consider these examples:

Image

SS-Obergruppenführer Reinhard Heydrich, chief of the Reich Security Main Office (including the Gestapo, SD and Kripo Nazi police agencies)..."held a life-long passion for the violin...he impressed listeners with his passionate musical talent.

"Music was a part of Heydrich's everyday life. His father, Bruno, was an opera singer as well as the founder of the Halle Conservatory of Music...."
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinhard_Heydrich]

I remember reading that Heydrich played duets with Frau Goebbels at Heydrich-Goebbels family get-togethers.


Image

"Condoleezza Rice...is an accomplished pianist and has performed in public since she was a young girl. At the age of 15, she played Mozart with the Denver Symphony, and to this day she plays regularly with a chamber music group in Washington...her favorite composer is Johannes Brahms, because she thinks Brahms's music is "passionate but not sentimental." " [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condoleezza_Rice]


I shake my head in wonder.
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Postby Nordic » Tue Aug 05, 2008 3:39 am

Now they're really stretching:

the AP (Bush-buddies all) is reporting that the reason Ivins may have made the seven-hour round trip to that mailbox in NJ after work is because he was "obsessed" with a sorority.

Evidence? "U.S. officials, speaking on the condition of anonymity."

And what obsession with the sorority? Oh, he was rebuffed decades ago, back in college, by a sorority girl.

And how close was the mailbox to the alleged "sorority"? 100 YARDS.

That's right. YARDS. In a heavily populated city area.

And was it really a "sorority" near the mailbox? Well, no, it was an office for one. It stored some of their gowns and paperwork and stuff. It didn't house any coeds, didn't throw any parties. It was an office.

Yet the headline reads:

Sorority may link anthrax suspect to NJ letters

And the first two paragraphs breathlessly report on this sexy-thriller aspect to the story:

WASHINGTON - His decades-long obsession with a college sorority may link a former Army biowarfare scientist to four anthrax-laced letters dropped off at a New Jersey mailbox in 2001, authorities said Monday in the latest twist of one of the most bizarre unsolved crimes in FBI history.

U.S. officials said Bruce Ivins' fixation with Kappa Kappa Gamma could explain one of the biggest mysteries in the case: why the anthrax was mailed from Princeton, N.J., 195 miles from the lab it's believed to have been smuggled from.


A good debunking here:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/8/5/ ... 676/562744

All I can think of is what I thought of the first I heard of this -- "they must think we're really stupid". Oh wait. Most people ARE.
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Postby timetunneler » Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:35 am

Wilbur Whatley wrote:Three days now in the news, and every day a crude slander on Ivins from the U.S. government. This has got to be the crudest frame job I've ever seen....

Who would be the biggest benefactor of an attack on Leahy and Daschle? Surprise! The FBI!! Which already had the Patriot Act ready on the shelf to impose fascist police measures within a few hours of 9/11.

Oh the stink!

I wonder if we'll ever have the real culprits. I think it all goes to Cheney and Addington.


There are a lot of reasons to be suspicious about the FBI. I just had a flash of enligtenment reading this article about Mary McFate who was an agent provocatuer for the NRA and some of the tactics she used which had a familiar ring to them.

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature ... a-spy.html
http://www.philly.com/inquirer/front_pa ... _spy_.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-suga ... 16826.html

In laying out this case against her, these articles mention this about her:

1. she actively provocatuered a woman to setup a remote detonated pipe bomb. And when the woman lost her nerve Mary McFate egged her on.

2. McFate had a provocatuer accomplice, another private security agent who was also an operative for Perceptions International (a private Wackenhut type security firm) who drove the woman to US Surgical on the day of the attempted bombing

So... what does that sound like? It sounds like the same type of agent provocatuering that we've seen in the Oklahoma City bombing, the WTC 1993 bombing, 9/11, the Miami 7. Sounds like Ali Mohammad, Andreas Strassmeier, Mohammad Atta and Melvin Lattimore driving thugs around inducing them to blow shit up all under the watchful eye and protection of the FBI.

Someone comes in to a group, gets the group to blow stuff up, and then the agent provocatuer gets away scott free while the dirty work is all pinned on a lone gunman or two or 19. What a coincidence.

So in this anthrax case, the question is whether or not the FBI is penetrated by some rogue group or if the FBI is essentially rogue from the top down because something rotten is definitely going on in the FBI and has been for many years.

Forgive me for going a bit off topic here.. just making a point about the fact that the FBI has been known to frame people up.
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Postby justdrew » Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:01 am

Elvis wrote:I shake my head in wonder.


well, neither of those people are much like a mad mail poisoner either
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Postby IanEye » Tue Aug 05, 2008 6:39 am

justdrew wrote:
Elvis wrote:I shake my head in wonder.


well, neither of those people are much like a mad mail poisoner either


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Postby Jeff » Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:24 pm

Doubts about anthrax story
Survivors, relatives wonder if dead scientist was truly the culprit

By Stephen Kiehl | Sun Reporter
August 5, 2008

Survivors of the 2001 anthrax attacks and relatives of those killed by the deadly powder said yesterday that they want a full accounting from the FBI of its investigation to date, and they are not yet convinced that Bruce Ivins, the government scientist who killed himself last week, was responsible.

Federal authorities are expected to meet this week with the victims' families in Washington to discuss their investigation, after which the FBI could close its nearly seven-year-old anthrax case and publicly release its findings. But with reports emerging that the case against Ivins is largely circumstantial, some wonder if real closure will ever come.

"I don't know whether this is the right person or not," said Maureen Stevens, the widow of Robert Stevens, a photo editor at the Sun, a supermarket tabloid, who was the first killed in the fall 2001 attacks. Stevens said she has gone to Washington twice before for meetings, but nothing came of them. She said she received an e-mail from the FBI informing her of this week's meeting.

"I don't know if we'll hear anything from them that will convince me that they've gotten to the bottom of it," Stevens said.

Ivins died last Tuesday after federal investigators had spent a year watching his house near Fort Detrick in Frederick, following him, and interviewing him and his colleagues at the U.S Army Medical Research Institute of Infectious Diseases. Ivins' lawyer has said the scientist was innocent.

"I think he's a convenient fall guy. They can say, 'OK, we found him, case closed, we're going home,'" said Dr. Kenneth W. Hedlund, the former chief of bacteriology at Fort Detrick who hired Ivins. "The FBI apparently applied a lot of pressure to all the investigators there [at Detrick], and they found the weakest link."

The FBI has not yet said how it was able to connect Ivins to the attacks.

But the Los Angeles Times and Wall Street Journal, relying in part on unnamed sources, reported that investigators employing new technology were able to find a genetic link between the specific anthrax strain recovered from the letters and the bodies of victims and the one found in an office and other "nonlaboratory space" where Ivins worked in 2001.

The New York Times reported that investigators intensively questioned his children, Andrew and Amanda, now both 24. One former colleague, Dr. W. Russell Byrne, said the agents pressed Ivins' daughter repeatedly to acknowledge that her father was involved in the attacks.

"It was not an interview," Byrne said. "It was a frank attempt at intimidation."

Byrne said he believed Ivins was singled out partly because of his personal weaknesses. "If they had real evidence on him, why did they not just arrest him?"

The Associated Press, quoting unnamed government sources, reported yesterday that Ivins had a lengthy obsession with the Kappa Kappa Gamma sorority, which has a chapter house near the Princeton, N.J., mailbox from which the anthrax letters were sent. However, the report says the FBI can't place Ivins in Princeton the day the letters were mailed.

Hedlund said Ivins was a bacteriologist and lacked the expertise to convert the anthrax into the deadly form that was used in the 2001 mailings to government offices and newsrooms.

Rep. Rush Holt, who represents the central New Jersey district where the anthrax letters were mailed, said circumstantial evidence is not enough, especially after the series of mistakes made in this case. The FBI spent years investigating Steven J. Hatfill, another scientist who worked in the same lab as Ivins. The government recently agreed to pay a $5.82 million settlement to Hatfill.

Holt sent a letter to FBI Director Robert S. Mueller III asking that Mueller appear before Congress to provide an account of the investigation.

"One of the reasons they need to lay this out is so that the public can be confident that they are protected," Holt, a Democrat, said in an interview yesterday. "The post office workers, the general public, the local police - they are all owed an explanation. They would like to have closure."

David Hose, 65, contracted anthrax while working at a mail facility in Sterling, Va. He said he didn't believe Ivins was responsible for the attacks, nor does he have any faith in the FBI's ability to close the case.

"They just mumble and bumble around," he said. "It's like a TV show."

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nation ... 1572.story
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