Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby Percival » Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:41 am

compared2what? wrote:
Percival wrote:
compared2what? wrote:
Percival wrote:I was away yesterday so I didnt get to respond to several people who adressed me so I will try and do so now, I am at work so I dont have a lot of time but I will be here and there the rest of the day trying to catch up.

To C2W, I have to agree that the antisemitism here is a little frightening, I also agree with you other post and would like to give that more consideration as I have time this afternoon. Thanks for taking the time to share your viewpoint as a fellow Jewish person, I certainly appreciate that.


I share my viewpoint as a person. But thank you.
I understandm I didnt mean to imply otherwise, I just didnt until this thread realize that you were Jewish and obviously I think that does influence your world view one way or another no matter how objective we as Jews try and be.


But yes, you are a person like any other and I certainly have always enjoyed your contributions in spite of the misunderstanding that we had a while back that sort of turned ugly for a while, still my apologies for that now and forever until I feel I have paid my dues for disrespecting you for such a simple misunderstanding from both of us.


Carry on.


You don't owe me any apologies, honey. But I very much appreciate you willingness to offer them.

Again, I do not attempt to be objective "as a Jew." I attempt to be fair, honest and humane as a person. Who's the sum of what her experiences acting upon the natural material she was born with have made her plus what she's made of herself. Period. I'm a free woman, in short. I've been as influenced by coming to know how other people were affected by their...for lack of a better word "neo-tribal" heritage as I have been by coming to know how I was. That's one and the same process, as far as I'm concerned. I just kind of enjoy understanding people, and within my natural limits, I'm not bad at it. IRL, anyway. So I don't discriminate all that much, in that regard. The pleasure is mine either way.

I'm not trying to bicker with you or anything. I just don't owe nor am I owned by that kind of fealty to anything or anybody on a pre-fab basis. I refuse and reject that as a concept.

I mean, I'm American and a woman. Since membership in both of those groups is too pervasively present in every part of my life for their being a part of my identity to be optional, I wouldn't dispute the assertion that everything I say or do is the speech or action of an American woman, I suppose.

But apart from that....I don't know. I'm subjective as myself. So I'm subjectively Jewish, among many other things. That's as far as it would be accurate to go.



Understood and thanks for that clarifiction, I do see what you mean now and I think I will strive more towards that myself as of now I am admittedly and terribly biased towards my heritage and cultural Jewishness but I have tried and am trying to see the other side without the blinders that my elders forced upon me because of their own past and hatred for our brothers of the Gaza.
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby Percival » Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:41 am

compared2what? wrote:
Percival wrote:
compared2what? wrote:
Percival wrote:I was away yesterday so I didnt get to respond to several people who adressed me so I will try and do so now, I am at work so I dont have a lot of time but I will be here and there the rest of the day trying to catch up.

To C2W, I have to agree that the antisemitism here is a little frightening, I also agree with you other post and would like to give that more consideration as I have time this afternoon. Thanks for taking the time to share your viewpoint as a fellow Jewish person, I certainly appreciate that.


I share my viewpoint as a person. But thank you.
I understandm I didnt mean to imply otherwise, I just didnt until this thread realize that you were Jewish and obviously I think that does influence your world view one way or another no matter how objective we as Jews try and be.


But yes, you are a person like any other and I certainly have always enjoyed your contributions in spite of the misunderstanding that we had a while back that sort of turned ugly for a while, still my apologies for that now and forever until I feel I have paid my dues for disrespecting you for such a simple misunderstanding from both of us.


Carry on.


You don't owe me any apologies, honey. But I very much appreciate you willingness to offer them.

Again, I do not attempt to be objective "as a Jew." I attempt to be fair, honest and humane as a person. Who's the sum of what her experiences acting upon the natural material she was born with have made her plus what she's made of herself. Period. I'm a free woman, in short. I've been as influenced by coming to know how other people were affected by their...for lack of a better word "neo-tribal" heritage as I have been by coming to know how I was. That's one and the same process, as far as I'm concerned. I just kind of enjoy understanding people, and within my natural limits, I'm not bad at it. IRL, anyway. So I don't discriminate all that much, in that regard. The pleasure is mine either way.

I'm not trying to bicker with you or anything. I just don't owe nor am I owned by that kind of fealty to anything or anybody on a pre-fab basis. I refuse and reject that as a concept.

I mean, I'm American and a woman. Since membership in both of those groups is too pervasively present in every part of my life for their being a part of my identity to be optional, I wouldn't dispute the assertion that everything I say or do is the speech or action of an American woman, I suppose.

But apart from that....I don't know. I'm subjective as myself. So I'm subjectively Jewish, among many other things. That's as far as it would be accurate to go.



Understood and thanks for that clarifiction, I do see what you mean now and I think I will strive more towards that myself as of now I am admittedly and terribly biased towards my heritage and cultural Jewishness but I have tried and am trying to see the other side without the blinders that my elders forced upon me because of their own past and hatred for our brothers of the Gaza.
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby Percival » Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:46 am

compared2what? wrote:
Percival wrote:Like I have asked before, instead of the name calling and criticism why dont you tell us all how Israel is supposed to deal with the threat of extermination?

Seems funny that nobody has stepped up to the challenge of answering that. Could that be because they dont have any answers.


Now you know how Israel feels.


The same way every other country that's had to accommodate yesterday's bitter foe for the sake of tomorrow. (Or any other country that did that because itwanted to, if there are any.) Pay them off. Give them some of what they want. Enfranchise them but don't enforce their right to vote very strenuously. Coopt a generally admired leader from the group that's (ostensibly) threatening you with extermination, and give him or her a very visible position in government.

And btw, I wouldn't say Hamas is threatening Israel with extermination, meaningfully. They'd need more powerful state sponsorship from a third-party state than they've got, for one thing. And while leadership in some neighboring or nearby countries to whose advantage it is to threaten Israel with extermination might or might not want actually to act on that threat, I don't see how any could do sit and survive US reprisals. Or how any could be unaware that they'd be exterminated by the U.S. and others for exterminating Israel.

In any event, it's long past time for the US either to start propitiating some of those powers and/or genuinely doing something to win the hearts and minds of the populations on whose necks they're standing. For both its own good and the good of the world, quite apart from the consequences that would have for Israel.

In fact, just the US acting unilaterally could do a whole hell of a lot to make that part of the world less furious with both itself and Israel, if it wanted to. Or at least could have until seven or so years ago. But either way, it could and should try.

The part of the above that sounds cynical does not proceed from a position of cynicism. btw. I'm just listing some of the commoner opening maneuvers employed by the bigger power in such situations. To make the point that it can be done, theoretically at least. If it's done well and with a little luck.

It's not that complicated., really. Treat them like people. It'd be a start.

Do you think in your opinion that stopping the blockade would benefit both parties and lead them towards more possibilities of peace


Perhaps I am paranoid but I feel all it would really do is create more opportunities to smuggle arms to Hamas militants, am I and Israel itself unreasonable for assuming that would be the case?
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby American Dream » Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:10 am

I think this may have been posted before but it certainly is worth posting here:


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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby Elvis » Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:39 am

Alice, thanks---very informative (if not persuasive).

I try to see the middle ground in most things (maybe "muddle ground" to the more passionately partisan) and think a genuine truce is the only hope for all parties, including those around the world who'd get dragged into the global conflagration we risk as the alternative.

Given the history you outline in your last post (which I don't question, much), I hope you don't advocate kicking out the Jews from the region; the last thing we need in the world is another forced mass exodus/displacement which, I suspect, would only set the stage for more trouble later on.

This deserves repeating:

Our message to the Palestinians is this: our people are not only those who live under siege in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip but also the millions languishing in refugee camps in Lebanon, Jordan and Syria and the millions spread around the world unable to return home. We promise you that nothing in the world will deter us from pursuing our goal of liberation and return. We shall spare no effort to work with all factions and institutions in order to put our Palestinian house in order. Having won the parliamentary elections, our medium-term objective is to reform the PLO in order to revive its role as a true representative of all the Palestinian people, without exception or discrimination.

Our message to the Israelis is this: we do not fight you because you belong to a certain faith or culture. Jews have lived in the Muslim world for 13 centuries in peace and harmony; they are in our religion "the people of the book" who have a covenant from God and His Messenger Muhammad (peace be upon him) to be respected and protected. Our conflict with you is not religious but political. We have no problem with Jews who have not attacked us - our problem is with those who came to our land, imposed themselves on us by force, destroyed our society and banished our people.

We shall never recognise the right of any power to rob us of our land and deny us our national rights. We shall never recognise the legitimacy of a Zionist state created on our soil in order to atone for somebody else's sins or solve somebody else's problem. But if you are willing to accept the principle of a long-term truce, we are prepared to negotiate the terms. Hamas is extending a hand of peace to those who are truly interested in a peace based on justice.

Khalid Mish'al is head of the political bureau of Hamas, upon Hamas' election in free and democratic, internationally-supervised elections, in 2006


I've never spent a great deal of time deeply (deeply) studying this topic, as important as it is, and admit I couldn't name a single Hamas leader (until just now). Maybe that's no surprise; a minute ago, based on what I knew before reading your last post above, I tried to find that speech with Google and couldn't (a cursory review of the first 60 hits; I might have missed it).

But I did find numerous pundit comments and quotes designed to "leave no doubt" that "Hamas' victory virtually ruled out a resumption of stalled peace efforts," and "[Hamas'] convention commits it to the destruction of Israel," etc. etc.

At the beginning of this thread I posted a photo of Rabin and Arafat shaking hands. I watched that on live TV at the time, and thought that whatever these two men had done in the past, they were brave for doing that and they set an historic example for their constituencies.

Of course, that handshake cost Rabin his life---and, for what it's worth, not at the hand of any Arab.
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby crikkett » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:01 am

Percival wrote:BUT none of this addresses the larger issue of how Israel is supposed to deal with the Hamas threat to exterminate every Jew in the region.

You say they cannot make good on that promise, in todays world they CAN indeed and they will, take away that blockade and it may not be long until Hamas finds a way to get its hands on a nuke, you say they wouldnt use it I say bullshit, given the opportunity they would in a minute and THAT is what Israel is doing, TRYING TO LIMIT THOSE OPPORTUNITIES.

They are not perfect but sans a better idea I dont know how else they can handle this.


Your re-assertions are contrary to what Alice says.

She lives in the region and speaks the language, Percival. Do you? Alice's story is firsthand. What's your experience?

Alice wrote:I LIVE in the region and speak the language and have been all over Palestine and known and worked for several years with many Palestinians from across the political, ideological and religious spectrum and swear, SWEAR ON THE LIFE OF MY CHILDREN that I have NEVER, EVER heard anyone, Muslim or otherwise, say to me that they would approve of "killing every Jew in the region" or anything vaguely resembling that sick fabrication of the sick zionist mind, let alone that this is "their ultimate goal". In contrast to, say, Judaism, no respectable Muslim cleric or other scholar could ever get away with calling for the the murder of women and children, let alone the extermination of any people, let alone Jews or Christians, whom Muslims consider fellow "People of the Book" and worshipers of the same God.

That might explain why zionists like you are so often forced to rely on wholesale fabrications, cynical mistranslations from Israeli intelligence-linked sources like MEMRI and dubious hearsay to feed their agitprop needs, in contrast to the numerous calls by prominent and state-sanctioned rabbis for racist murder and even genocide, which are well-documented from their own sources and easily verifiable.
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby bluenoseclaret » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:17 am

Kidnapped by Israel, Forsaken by the British

Jamal Elshayyal
– Al Jazzera.net June 6, 2010

Firstly I must apologise for taking so long to update my blog. The events of the past few days have been hectic to say the least, and I am still trying to come to grips with many of the things that have happened.

It was this time last week that I was on the top deck of the Mavi Marmara, and first spotted Israeli warships at a distance, as they approached the humanitarian flotilla. Little did I know how deadly and bloody the events that soon unfolded would be.

What I will write in this entry is fact, every letter of it, none of it is opinion, none of it is analysis, I will leave that to you, the reader.

After spotting the warships at a distance, (at roughly 11pm) the organisers called for passengers to wear their life vests and remain indoors as they monitored the situation. The naval warships together with helicopters remained at a distance for several hours.

At 2am local time the organisers informed me that they had re-routed the ship, as far away from Israel as possible, as deep into international waters as they could. They did not want a confrontation with the Israeli military, at least not by night.

Just after 4am local time, the Israeli military attacked the ship, in international waters. It was an unprovoked attack. Tear gas was used, sound grenades were launched, and rubber coated steel bullets were fired from almost every direction.
Dozens of speed boats carrying about 15-20 masked Israeli soldiers, armed to the teeth surrounded the Mavi Marmara which was carrying 600 or so unarmed civilians. Two helicopters at a time hovered above the vessel. Commandos on board the choppers joined the firing, using live ammunition, before any of the soldiers had descended onto the ship.

Two unarmed civilians were killed just metres away from me. Dozens of unarmed civilians were injured right before my eyes.

One Israeli soldier, armed with a large automatic gun and a side pistol, was overpowered by several passengers. They disarmed him. They did not use his weapons or fire them; instead they threw his weapons over board and into the sea.

After what seemed at the time as roughly 30 minutes, passengers on board the ship raised a white flag. The Israeli army continued to fire live ammunition. The ships organisers made a loud speaker announcement saying they have surrendered the ship. The Israeli army continued to fire live ammunition.

I was the last person to leave the top deck.

Below, inside the sleeping quarters, all the passengers had gathered. There was shock, anger, fear, hurt, chaos.

Doctors ran in all directions trying to treat the wounded, blood was on the floor, tears ran down people’s faces, cries of pain and mourning could be heard everywhere. Death was in the air.

Three critically injured civilians were being treated on the ground in the reception area of the ship. Their clothes soaked in blood. Passengers stood by watching in shock, some read out verses of the Qur’an to calm them, doctors worked desperately to save them.

Several announcements were made on the load speakers in Hebrew, Arabic and English - "This is a message to the Israeli army, we have surrendered. We are unarmed. We have critically injured people. Please come and take them. We will not attack."

There was no response.

One of the passengers, a member of the Israeli Parliament, wrote a sign in Hebrew, reading the exact same thing; she held it together with a white flag and approached the windows where the Israeli soldiers were standing outside. They pointed their laser guided guns to her head, ordering her to go away.

A British citizen tried the same sign - this time holding a British Flag and taking the sign to a different set of windows and different set of soldiers. They responded in the same manner.

Three hours later, all three of the injured were pronounced dead. The Israeli soldiers who refused to allow them treatment succeeded where their colleagues had earlier failed when they targeted these three men with bullets.

At around 8am the Israeli army entered the sleeping quarters. They handcuffed the passengers. I was thrown onto the ground, my hands tied behind my back, I couldn’t move an inch.

I was taken to the top deck where the other passengers were, forced to sit on my knees under the burning sun.

One passenger had his hands tied so tight his wrists were all sorts of colours. When he requested that the cuffs be loosened, an Israeli soldier tightened them even more. He let out a scream that sent chills down my body.

I requested to go to the bathroom, I was prevented. Instead the Israeli soldier told me to urinate where I was and in my own clothes. Three or four hours later I was allowed to go.

I was then marched, together with the other passengers, back to the sleeping quarters. The place was ransacked, its image like that of the aftermath of an earthquake.

I remained on the ship, seated, without any food or drink, barring three sips of water, for more than 24 hours. Throughout this time, Israeli soldiers had their guns pointed at us. Their hands on the trigger. For more than 24 hours.

I was then taken off the ship at Ashdod where I was asked to sign a deportation orde. It claimed that I had entered Israel illegally and agreed to be deported. I told the officer that I, in fact, had not entered Israel but that the Israeli army had kidnapped me from international waters and brought me to Israel against my will; therefore I could not sign this document.

My passport was taken from me. I was told that I would go to jail.

Only then were my hands freed, I spent more than 24 hours with my hands cuffed behind my back, with nothing to eat, and barely anything to drink.

Upon arrival at the prison I was put in a cell with three other passengers. The cell was roughly 12ft by 9ft.

I spent more than 24 hours in jail. I was not allowed to make a single phone call.

The British consulate did not come and see me. I did not see a lawyer.

There was no hot water for a shower.

The only meal was frozen bread and some potatoes.

The only reason I believe I was released was because the Turkish prisoners refused to leave until and unless the other nationalities (those whose consulates had not come and released them) were set free.

I was taken to Ben Gurion airport. When I asked for my passport, the Israeli official presented me with a piece of paper and said "congratulations this is your new passport". I replied "you must be joking, you have my passport". The Israeli official's response: "sue me".

There I was asked again to sign a deportation order. Again I refused.

I was put on a plane headed to Istanbul.

Masked Israeli soldiers and commandos took me from international waters.

Uniformed Israeli officials locked me behind bars.

The British government did not lift a finger to help me, till this day I have not seen or heard from a British official.

The Israeli government stole my passport.

The Israeli government stole my lap top, two cameras, 3 phones, $1500 and all my possessions.

My government, the British government has not even acknowledged my existence.

I was kidnapped by Israel. I was forsaken by my country
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby elfismiles » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:20 am

Percival wrote:Like I have asked before, instead of the name calling and criticism why dont you tell us all how Israel is supposed to deal with the threat of extermination?

Seems funny that nobody has stepped up to the challenge of answering that. Could that be because they dont have any answers.

Now you know how Israel feels.


Actually, some of us have offerred answers, simplistic as they may seem - you just have ignored them and/or feel they aren't realistic (I assume).

viewtopic.php?p=340240#p340240


Israeli Solutions:

1 - Tear Down the (FUCKING) Walls

2 - Stop Responding with Life for an Eye

3 - Give up the nukes

American Solutions:

Ditto above...

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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby Percival » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:28 am

elfismiles wrote:
Percival wrote:Like I have asked before, instead of the name calling and criticism why dont you tell us all how Israel is supposed to deal with the threat of extermination?

Seems funny that nobody has stepped up to the challenge of answering that. Could that be because they dont have any answers.

Now you know how Israel feels.


Actually, some of us have offerred answers, simplistic as they may seem - you just have ignored them and/or feel they aren't realistic (I assume).

http://www.rigorousintuition.ca/board2/ ... 40#p340240


Israeli Solutions:

1 - Tear Down the (FUCKING) Walls

2 - Stop Responding with Life for an Eye

3 - Give up the nukes

American Solutions:



Ditto above...




Elfie I have recognized those posts and tried to comment on each of them if you look back, I have said they are all very well thought out and heartfelt answers but I dont understand how tearing down walls and giving up nukes will help Israel defend against a Hamas vow of "no peace until every Jew is removed from the region."

Can you elaborate a little further on how these things will help prevent such?


Honestly I am not trying to ignore, avoid or belittle anyone here, I feel most of you, at least the ones that arent participating in the pissing match, name calling, ad homs and personal attacks, are sincere in your approach to this problem but again I just dont see how any of those proposed solutions will help Israel prevent Hamas delivering on its promise AND allowing Hamas to further arm itself (sans the blockade and embargos). And THAT is my question, not what we should do in la la land, utopia, a perfect world but what Israel can do with the real life, real world problem of a threat of extermination, how can they handle that without the blockade and the hardline approach they are currently taking.
Last edited by Percival on Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby elfismiles » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:29 am

Percival wrote:
crikkett wrote:
Percival wrote:
crikkett wrote:I suggest that Israel stop killing, feed the hungry, nurse the sick, give back stolen land, tear down their fucking walls, stop fucking teaching hate, and strive to make a better fucking life for all children.


I agree, if Hamas had not vowed to exterminate them all I bet that is exactly what we would do.


Is there any possibility that Hamas' threat is impotent?


Assuming that they regularly and shell Israel neighborhoods, marketplaces, malls and send suicide bombers on to buses, killing untold numbers of innocent people over the last decade, I would say the smart bet is to take their word for it when they say their desire is no peace until every Jew is exterminated from the region.

Here is the problem, Israel cannot afford to assume such a threat is meaningless, the whole world including the Jews themselves took that approach during the Holocaust and we lost 6 million because of it.

Simply put:

Never again.


Again, someone has offerred solutions but you don't like those suggested.

As for "shell Israel neighborhoods, marketplaces, malls and send suicide bombers on to buses, killing untold numbers of innocent people over the last decade" ...

Suicide bombings occur because of OCCUPATION:


Ending Suicide Terrorism
by Rep. Ron Paul
July 21, 2005

...
Image
Robert Pape, author of Dying to Win, explains the strategic logic of suicide terrorism. Pape has collected a database of every suicide terrorist attack between 1980 and 2004, all 462 of them. His conclusions are enlightening and crucial to our understanding the true motivation behind the attacks against Western nations by Islamic terrorists. After his exhaustive study, Pape comes to some very important conclusions.

Religious beliefs are less important than supposed. For instance, the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka, a Marxist secular group, are the world's leader in suicide terrorism . The largest Islamic fundamentalist countries have not been responsible for any suicide terrorist attack. None have come from Iran or the Sudan. Until the U.S. invasion of Iraq, Iraq never had a suicide terrorist attack in all of its history. Between 1995 and 2004, the al-Qaeda years, two-thirds of all attacks came from countries where the U.S. had troops stationed. Iraq's suicide missions today are carried out by Iraqi Sunnis and Saudis. Recall, 15 of the 19 participants in the 9/11 attacks were Saudis.

The clincher is this: the strongest motivation, according to Pape, is not religion but rather a desire "to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from the territory the terrorists view as their homeland."

The best news is that if stopping suicide terrorism is a goal we seek, a solution is available to us. Cease the occupation of foreign lands, and the suicide missions will cease. Between 1982 and 1986, there were 41 suicide terrorist attacks in Lebanon. Once the U.S., the French, and Israel withdrew their forces from Lebanon, there were no more attacks. The reason the attacks stop, according to Pape, is that the Osama bin Ladens of the world no longer can inspire potential suicide terrorists despite their continued fanatical religious beliefs.

http://www.antiwar.com/paul/?articleid=6712




Suicide Bombers as Freedom Fighters?
by Jude Wanniski


...

Throwing America a Life Preserver
by Michael Scheuer
June 10, 2005


http://www.lewrockwell.com/wanniski/wanniski87.html



http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aa ... obert+pape
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby elfismiles » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:36 am

Apologies if I missed your responses in the long thread(s).

I really think the troubles are as basic as two people seeing the same scrap of dirt as their holy birthright.

And as soon as one of those people starts shoving the other off that scrap of dirt and uses force of arms to keep it then you have the perception of occupation.

And occupation leads to righteous "self-defense" including all manor of atrocious guerrilla warfare including suicide bombings.

I guess I really don't see any solution other than both sides saying, "Fuck it! It's just a bunch of fucking dirt!" ... and both sides walk away. Or learn to share.

Percival wrote:
Elfie I have recognized those posts and tried to comment on each of them if you look back, I have said they are all very well thought out and heartfelt answers but I dont understand how tearing down walls and giving up nukes will help Israel defend against a Hamas vow of "no peace until every Jew is removed from the region."

Can you elaborate a little further on how these things will help prevent such?
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby Percival » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:37 am

crikkett wrote:
Percival wrote:BUT none of this addresses the larger issue of how Israel is supposed to deal with the Hamas threat to exterminate every Jew in the region.

You say they cannot make good on that promise, in todays world they CAN indeed and they will, take away that blockade and it may not be long until Hamas finds a way to get its hands on a nuke, you say they wouldnt use it I say bullshit, given the opportunity they would in a minute and THAT is what Israel is doing, TRYING TO LIMIT THOSE OPPORTUNITIES.

They are not perfect but sans a better idea I dont know how else they can handle this.


Your re-assertions are contrary to what Alice says.

She lives in the region and speaks the language, Percival. Do you? Alice's story is firsthand. What's your experience?

Alice wrote:I LIVE in the region and speak the language and have been all over Palestine and known and worked for several years with many Palestinians from across the political, ideological and religious spectrum and swear, SWEAR ON THE LIFE OF MY CHILDREN that I have NEVER, EVER heard anyone, Muslim or otherwise, say to me that they would approve of "killing every Jew in the region" or anything vaguely resembling that sick fabrication of the sick zionist mind, let alone that this is "their ultimate goal". In contrast to, say, Judaism, no respectable Muslim cleric or other scholar could ever get away with calling for the the murder of women and children, let alone the extermination of any people, let alone Jews or Christians, whom Muslims consider fellow "People of the Book" and worshipers of the same God.

That might explain why zionists like you are so often forced to rely on wholesale fabrications, cynical mistranslations from Israeli intelligence-linked sources like MEMRI and dubious hearsay to feed their agitprop needs, in contrast to the numerous calls by prominent and state-sanctioned rabbis for racist murder and even genocide, which are well-documented from their own sources and easily verifiable.

My experience is having lived in Jerusalem and other areas of Israel for 27 years of my life including all of my youth and young adult and having worked my way through university working as a field reporter for several different Israeli media publications, some assignments which included actually living IN Gaza for a period of time AFTER 2007 when Hamas took control of the area and speaking personally with Hamas leadership and militant soldiers who admitted to me that ultimately they want every Jew gone from the region and that if given the opportunity to make good on that they would do it. I speak the language also, Alice is on the other side of this issue and so her and I wont see eye to eye on anything but I do have equal experience to hers when it comes to the Gaza and Israel specifically, I dont know what her experience is beyond Egypt, which strangely, itself supports Israel over Hamas in this matter, so even her own people, Arabs and Muslims as they are, recognize the menace that Hamas represents not only to Jews and Israel but to the entire region itself.

Alice may have not ever heard anyone express the above sentiment but I am also sure Alice isnt living in the heart of the Gaza, like I did on assignment for a period of 30 days, working directly and side by side, spending all of my days and nights with Hamas leadership and their militant soldiers/follwers. Alice knows what she reads in the media and what her inner circle of friends and colleagues tell her but I have never seen her express that she has been right smack in the middle of this controversy and actually spent time with those who freely and openly admit that they will never accept any sort of peace as long as Jews occupy any part of that entire region known as Israel or Palestine.

I have no intention of getting in to a pissing match with Alice, she has her experiences and I have mine, the difference is I have it from the horses mouth and she seemingly sees it only from a distance ( I assume, perhaps I am wrong.)
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby The Consul » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:22 am

Perhaps, in reading elfsmiles links above, Hamas itself is like a politicized or democratized suicide bomber. It would seem to me that the harder Israel strikes at Hamas, the increased devastation only plays into the power hold for Hamas. Since it is unlikely Hamas can suffer a total military defeat, would it not behoove Israel and her sponsor to look for ways to undermine Hamas politically? Hamas fires its rockets at Israel not just to eradicate jews, but to elicit a greater response which feeds the fear and terror of Gazans who cling to Hamas for some sense of justice (however misplaced) and even for medical and social services.

Israel must have an in depth knowledge of Hamas since Hamas is to Mossad what Al-Qaeda was to the CIA. They didn't create these monsters so much as they fed them to attack their respective enemies (Soviets, Fatah). The coninuous attempts to defeat either militarily is an enterprise of grotesque absurdity....unless, they are simply doing the same thing, in effect, as both Hamas and Al-qaeda. Using the fear demonization of one's enemies to consolidate and maintain power. The question for sentient members of a democracy is how to demand a peace that can be brokered that is not beholden to craven political interests.
Perhaps Alice and Percival would have insights into the conditions or possibilities of doing such a thing.
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby Percival » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:24 am

elfismiles wrote:Apologies if I missed your responses in the long thread(s).

I really think the troubles are as basic as two people seeing the same scrap of dirt as their holy birthright.

And as soon as one of those people starts shoving the other off that scrap of dirt and uses force of arms to keep it then you have the perception of occupation.

And occupation leads to righteous "self-defense" including all manor of atrocious guerrilla warfare including suicide bombings.

I guess I really don't see any solution other than both sides saying, "Fuck it! It's just a bunch of fucking dirt!" ... and both sides walk away. Or learn to share.

Percival wrote:
Elfie I have recognized those posts and tried to comment on each of them if you look back, I have said they are all very well thought out and heartfelt answers but I dont understand how tearing down walls and giving up nukes will help Israel defend against a Hamas vow of "no peace until every Jew is removed from the region."

Can you elaborate a little further on how these things will help prevent such?




Good points Elfie and certainly worth further consideration and response. Just to start, do you think a level of trust can ever be restored among the two sides that they would both accept sharing that chunk of dirt that each of them see as a birthright and live side by side in peace.

My own experience as an Israeli has resigned me to believe that kind of trust will never be restored, I dont like saying that because a very optimistic kind of guy but even the youngest generation that I see there on my occasional visits to see family is already expressing a fear and animosity towards the people of Gaza and specifically Hamas.

Why?

Because like everyone else in the region they see the shells flying at all times of day and night, coming seemingly out of nowhere and landing in the middle of settlements, neighborhoods, shapping malls etc, they also see the suicide bombers on buses, they see their little playmate friends blown up and killed, there one day gone the next ALL because Hamas continues to shell Israel territory randomnly without notice for no seeming reason other than to do it.

All told since Hamas has taken over the political leadership in 2007 of the Gaza, as the people there voted them in, over 7000 shells and rockets have been fired in to the above mentioned areas and untold numbers of innocent children and their adult parents, friends and teachers have been killed by them.


When will Hamas stop this, I realize it is a chicken/egg argument and Hamas does it in response to something Israel does and Israel does something in response to the shelling from Hamas, round and round we go...

Frankly its a fucking mess and I am not really proud to be a part of anymore, the children suffer the most and like this oil leak and BP the animals and birds covered and mired in oil to the point they lay belly up, no longer able to move, those two things, the suffering of children and animals is what makes me the most physically, literally, ill and I really cant take much more of it, it haunts me and gives me nightmares and I am wholly unable to really enjoy life because these things always remain with me no matter where I go...I am sure you can relate.
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby seemslikeadream » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:40 am

View the ongoing holocaust
STOP living in the past, the holocaust continues right before our eyes

Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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