Sibel Edmonds destroys Glenn Greenwald

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Postby JackRiddler » Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:10 am

dada » Sun Jan 26, 2014 7:57 am wrote:I think Jack is doing a great job. The NSA should be the focus here, not Snowden/Greenwald.


Thank you! Don't encourage me though. It's true that I've been unnecessarily mean.

And the GCHQ and UK state, of course. As a focus, I mean. As we saw in that last post I did, they're running an inquisition on a newspaper editor for publishing about their crimes and abuses, threatening him with charges that carry life sentences, and some here see fit to blame the editor for it.

Also, it seems to be evidence against Greenwald that he's still breathing. How can he be for real, if he's still breathing?

Still, you gotta wonder why Snowden didn't contact Tarzie as the right outlet for his files, instead of Greenwald! Ha ha ha.

.
Last edited by JackRiddler on Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Sibel Edmonds destroys Glenn Greenwald

Postby dada » Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:16 am

I see mean on all sides here. Some are more passive-aggressive than others is all. Anyway, Sibel Edmonds started it.
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
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Re: Sibel Edmonds destroys Glenn Greenwald

Postby dada » Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:23 am

'Snowden Effect' Threatens U.S. Tech Industry's Global Ambitions
Gerry Smith01/24/14 05:01 PM ET

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4596162/?ir=Science

This is all Snowden's fault. And probably that ambulance-chaser Greenwald's, too.
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
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Re: It's easy to be an asset for the NSA!

Postby Searcher08 » Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:34 am

JackRiddler » Sun Jan 26, 2014 3:39 am wrote:
Searcher08 » Sat Jan 25, 2014 9:26 pm wrote:I'm reading you saying that you think Sibel Edmonds is acting as an NSA asset - is that accurate?


An asset is someone placed on an organizational chart or table as such. An asset isn't necessarily aware of their status as an asset to a given organization. I see no indication that Sibel Edmonds is an agent of the NSA, and very much doubt it. The former FBI employee and whistleblower, clearly, has devolved into a conspiracy merchandiser of rather minor importance.

In this case, she is undeniably acting in the interests of the NSA, and thus can be called an asset.

Her bizarroland rants (like those of Ryan and others) serve to divert attention from the essential question of what the NSA does to the very minor question of what documents Greenwald may have (because Snowden picked him) that he has yet to share with Sibel Edmonds. She insinuates or just straight-up says that Greenwald is a limited hangout agent, a greedy ambulance chasing Marxist-Leninist libertarian cash-grubby lawyer, a gay party animal making "millions of dollars" (repeat, repeat, repeat!) by twisting the truth on Omidyar's behalf, etc. etc.

She seems to have timed these contributions (which are baseless and illogical, but in conformity with stereotypes about Jews and gays) to the rhythms of an ongoing, separate, much larger campaign, in which the government and the mainstream media are smearing Greenwald and Snowden as reckless traitors with "stolen" documents, Russian spies, profiteers, etc. etc. It's interesting that Ryan straight-up adopts the NSA line that these documents (of government crime) were "stolen" by Snowden. It is an appalling and highly irresponsible display. How could the NSA not be loving this?


The purpose of a system is what it DOES.
There is probably a whole thread's worth of discussion about what the NSA actually does in the world.

At present I would suggest:
1 It seeks to permanently store all data created via all aspects of the the Internet
2 It seeks real-time access to all new data as it is being generated
3 It lies and manipulates the Government it is supposed to report to
4 It provides access to it's information to US / transglobal corporations for profit,
5 It provides access to it's information to non-US Intel agencies allied in creating 1) and 2)
6 It provides access to Israel for <insert 51st State reasons>

I think it is important to separate Snowden and Greenwald - and Greenwald separate from The Guardian - they are not 'molecules'.

My intuition said that when I heard Greenwald talking about his new business opp, he was almost drooling with $$$ and power excitement. It was a real WTF??? moment for me.

I am not so sure it is important *what* the mainstream media say about Snowden and Greenwald - why the fuck should anyone care what that bunch of dirty Koch-Foxers / whiny liberal myiopians say? Judging by some of the comments I read e.g. in the Mail online, the degree of public belief in the MSM is at an all-time low.

I think this whole situation is also a pointer to the dangers of assuming that correlation implies causation.
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Re: Sibel Edmonds destroys Glenn Greenwald

Postby dada » Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:45 am

"Bernstein, 69, said Rusbridger's appearance before the committee was a "dangerously pernicious" attempt by British authorities to shift the focus of the surveillance debate from excessive government secrecy to the conduct of the press."

A dangerous attempt to shift the focus.
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
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Re: Sibel Edmonds destroys Glenn Greenwald

Postby dada » Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:08 am

dada » Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:16 am wrote:I see mean on all sides here. Some are more passive-aggressive than others is all. Anyway, Sibel Edmonds started it.


Not that that excuses you! Or any of you!

Be nicer, you fuckers. :bigsmile
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
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Re: Sibel Edmonds destroys Glenn Greenwald

Postby vanlose kid » Sun Jan 26, 2014 1:59 pm

Hope.
Change.
Debate.
Reform.
Vote Democrat in the next election.
Do something.
Don't vote Republican.

Chris Floyd is an NSA asset (and he's not as smart as Jack (No one is, really)). Do not read.

From Dissident Gold to Imperial Dross: The Neutering of the NSA Archives
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Written by Chris Floyd
Sunday, 20 October 2013 00:38

1. Clancy Lives!
Take heart, you fans of slam-bang super-spy adventure stories! Tom Clancy is not dead; he lives on in the pages of the Washington Post, channeled through the airport-thriller prose of Barton Gellman -- one of the small coterie of media custodians doling out dollops from the huge archive of secret NSA documents obtained by whistleblower Edward Snowden.

Drawing on that archive of what should be shocking, empire-undermining revelations, Gellman and his co-authors last week penned a story that is, in almost every respect, a glorification of state-ordered murder: a rousing tale of secret ops in exotic lands, awesome high-tech spy gear, flying missiles, deadly explosions, and dogged agents doing the grim but noble work of keeping us safe. No doubt Hollywood is already on the horn: it's boffo box office!

The story describes how the NSA's determined leg-work helped Barack Obama shred the sovereignty of a US ally in order to kill a man -- in the usual cowardly fashion, by long-distance, remote-control missile -- without the slightest pretense of judicial process. It's really cool! Just watch our boys in action:

In the search for targets, the NSA has draped a surveillance blanket over dozens of square miles of northwest Pakistan. In Ghul’s case, the agency deployed an arsenal of cyber-espionage tools, secretly seizing control of laptops, siphoning audio files and other messages, and tracking radio transmissions to determine where Ghul might “bed down.” …

“NSA threw the kitchen sink at the FATA,” said a former U.S. intelligence official with experience in Afghanistan and Pakistan, referring to the Federally Administered Tribal Areas, the region in northwest Pakistan where al-Qaeda’s leadership is based. … Surveillance operations that required placing a device or sensor near an al-Qaeda compound were handled by the CIA’s Information Operations Center, which specializes in high-tech devices and “close-in” surveillance work. “But if you wanted huge coverage of the FATA, NSA had 10 times the manpower, 20 times the budget and 100 times the brainpower,” the former intelligence official said.

I mean, get a load of these guys: 100 times the brainpower of ordinary mortals! Didn't I say they were super-spies?

The target was Hassan Ghul, an al-Qaeda operative who was once in American custody but was released after giving his captors the tip that eventually led them to Osama bin Laden. (He was also tortured after giving the information -- because, hey, why not? Even super-powerful brains need to let off steam once in a while, right?) Returned to his native Pakistan, Ghul evidently became a bad Injun again in eyes of the imperium, so, after snooping on his wife, they found out where he was and ordered some joystick jockey with his butt parked in a comfy chair somewhere to push a button and kill him.

There is not a single word in the entire story to suggest, even remotely, that there is anything wrong with the government of the United States running high-tech death squads and blanketing the globe with a level of invasive surveillance far beyond the dreams of Stalin or the Stasi. There is not even a single comment from some token 'serious' person objecting to the policy on realpolitik grounds: i.e., that such actions create more terrorists (as the Pakistani schoolgirl Malala Yousafzai told Obama to his face), engender hatred for the US, destabilize volatile regions, etc. etc. There is not a shred of even this very tepid, 'loyal opposition' type of tidbit that usually crops up in the 15th or 25th paragraph of such stories. But there was, of course, plenty of room for quotes like this:

“Ours is a noble cause,” NSA Director Keith B. Alexander said during a public event last month. “Our job is to defend this nation and to protect our civil liberties and privacy.”

Makes you want to puddle up with patriotic pride, don’t it? These noble, noble guardians of ours: peeping through our digital windows, rifling through our in-boxes, listening to our personal conversations, reading our private thoughts, tracking our purchases (underwear, fishing gear, sex toys, books, movies, tampons, anything, everything), recording our dreams, our interests, our beliefs, our desires, skulking in the shadows, pushing buttons to kill people … yes, noble is certainly the first word that comes to mind.

2. Habituation Blues
It was once thought that the Snowden trove -- which details the astonishingly pervasive and penetrative reach of America's security apparatchiks into every nook and cranny of our private lives -- might prove to be a stinging blow to our imperial overlords, rousing an angry populace to begin taking back some of the liberties that have been systematically stripped from them by the bipartisan elite. But instead of a powerful tsunami of truth -- a relentless flood of revelations, coming at the overlords from every direction, keeping them off-balance -- we have seen only a slow drip-feed of polite, lawyer-scrubbed pieces from a small portion of the trove, carefully filtered by a tiny circle of responsible journalists at a handful of respectable institutions to ensure, as the custodians constantly assure us, that the revelations will "do no harm" to the security apparat's vital mission.

The perverse result of this process has been to slowly habituate the public to the idea of ubiquitous surveillance. The drawn-out spacing of the stories -- and the small circle of well-known venues from which they come -- has given the apparatchiks and their leaders plenty of time to prepare and launch counter-attacks, to confuse and diffuse the issues with barrages of carefully-wrought bullshit, and to mobilize their own allies in the compliant media to attack the high-profile producers of the stories -- such as the angry assaults in recent days by Britain's right-wing papers, accusing the Guardian of treason, etc., and, once again, diverting attention from the dark and heavy substance of the revelations to the juicier froth of a media cat-fight.

And so, as we have seen time and again over the years, an outbreak of "dissident" revelations is slowly being turned into a means of habituating people to the horrors they expose -- such as the widespread use of torture, which became a widely accepted practice during the last decade. Remember the first Abu Ghraib stories, when even U.S. senators were shell-shocked as they came out of briefings on the horrors, and there was serious talk of criminal prosecutions shaking -- perhaps breaking -- the Bush administration? Outraged editorials rang across the land: "This is not what we are!" But most of the Abu Ghraib material was kept from the public, both by the government and by our respectable, carefully-filtering media outlets. We were told, by our masters and our media, that the facts and images were "too disturbing" for public viewing; and their exposure would threaten our soldiers and agents with retaliation by outraged Muslims.

Within months, many of those same outraged papers were endorsing Bush for re-election. And even in "liberal" bastions, like the New York Times, torture had become a matter not for outright, automatic condemnation and rejection – as it would be in any civilized society -- but instead was presented as an issue requiring “serious” debate. (Debate! About torture!). And so we had a series of serious players weighing in on the pros and cons of "strenuous interrogation" -- with the emphasis largely on whether it was effective or not. This became the respectable, savvy “liberal” perspective on the question: not that torture was an unspeakable, untouchable evil, but that, hey, it doesn’t really work, you get too much garbage data, so it’s not really a useful tool for our noble security forces.

And we all know what happened in the end: the initially shocked and outraged bipartisan elite agreed that no one should ever be prosecuted for these brazen war crimes (aside from a few bits of low-ranking trailer trash, of course), and that those who approved and perpetrated these acts should be protected, honored, and enriched by our society. By the time the smoke cleared, large percentages of the public voiced their support for the torture of imperial captives and the stripping of rights (constitutional rights, human rights) from anyone arbitrarily designated as a "terrorist" by our leaders.

The same thing happened -- in a much quicker, more telescoped form -- in 2012 when the New York Times revealed the details of Barack Obama's formal, official death squad program, run directly out of the White House in weekly meetings. Indeed, this entire "revelation" was stage-managed by the White House itself, which "leaked" the details and provided "top administrative figures" to paint the scene of thoughtful, even prayerful leaders doing the grim but noble work of keeping us safe. Of course, snippets about the White House murder program had been made public before, going back to 2001. (I wrote my first column on the subject in November 2001, based on laudatory stories about Bush's self-proclaimed license to kill in the Washington Post.) And of course, Bush himself openly boasted of the assassination program on national television in his State-of-the-Union address in 2003. So the NYT story was more of a culmination of the habituation process.

Still, many people -- perhaps most people -- had never stitched together the horrendous reality behind these scattered snippets over the years; but the NYT story made it crystal clear, front and center. This time there was not even the brief spasm of outrage that followed the Abu Ghraib revelations. A nation that had already accustomed itself to systematic torture, to "indefinite detention" of captives in concentration camps, indeed to what was described at the Nuremberg Trials as the "supreme international crime" -- aggressive war -- was no longer a nation that would be troubled by news of a White House death squad. It was just part of the "new normal." And it goes without saying that these revelations did not prevent any serious and respectable liberal and "progressive" figure from endorsing Obama's re-election months later.

Yet the Snowden revelations had the potential, at least, to cut through the murk of moral deadness that now envelops America. This is because, unlike distant wars and "black ops" and brutality against swarthy, meaningless foreigners with funny names, the NSA's surveillance programs are also aimed at them, at real people, Americans! For once, they could see a direct impact of overweening empire on their own sweet lives. (Aside from the innumerable indirect impacts which have degraded national life for decades.) There was a chance -- a chance -- that this might have galvanized a critical mass across the ideological spectrum to some kind of substantial pushback, And the series of confused, panicky, self-contradictory lies that government officials and their sycophants told when the Snowden story first hit gave some indication that, for a moment at least, our noble (and Nobelled) overlords were on the back foot.

But then -- well, not much happened. Stories based on the NSA documents appeared at intervals -- often rather lengthy intervals --- and always from the same sources, in the same dry, dense, Establishment style, interspersed with relentless counterblasts from the power structure -- and, always, mixed in with the million other bright, shiny things that pop and flash and draw the eye on the hyperactive screens that ‘mediate’ reality for us. (And what if you were one of the billions of people on earth who -- perish the thought! -- didn't read the Guardian, the Times and the Post?) So the Snowden-based stories rumbled away on the sidelines, the momentum was lost, the power structure got its bootheels back firmly on the ground.

3. The Rain it Raineth Every Day

"Fine word, legitimate."
Edmund, King Lear

But what a minute, you say! Hold on just a rootin' tootin' minute there, Mister Cynical Blog Guy! What about the debate? What about the fierce debate -- in the press, on TV, even in the halls of legislatures around the world -- that the finely filtered NSA stories have already brought about? After all, provoking debate was the point, wasn't it? Over and over, custodians of NSA trove such as Gellman and Glenn Greenwald have told us that this has been the raison d’etre behind publishing the stories. Not to "harm" the security apparatus in any way, but to spark a debate over surveillance policies. For according to the serious and the savvy, debate is an inherent good in itself.

Snowden himself underscored this point in his interview with the New York Times last week. In fact, in one extraordinary passage, he says point-blank that he believes the lack of debate is more egregious than the actual liberty-stripping, KGB wet-dream abuses being perpetrated by the security apparat:

[Snowden] added that he had been more concerned that Americans had not been told about the N.S.A.’s reach than he was about any specific surveillance operation.

“So long as there’s broad support amongst a people, it can be argued there’s a level of legitimacy even to the most invasive and morally wrong program, as it was an informed and willing decision,” he said. “However, programs that are implemented in secret, out of public oversight, lack that legitimacy, and that’s a problem. It also represents a dangerous normalization of ‘governing in the dark,’ where decisions with enormous public impact occur without any public input.”

Even “the most morally wrong program” can have a “level of legitimacy” if it has “broad support amongst a people.” Well, if I may quote Mel Brooks quoting old Joe Schrank, I can hardly believe my hearing aid. Snowden apparently put his life and liberty at risk just to see if the American people supported blanket surveillance of themselves and the world. And if they do – well, that gives the whole sinister shebang “a level of legitimacy.” So if the polls eventually show that most people are down with the invasive-pervasive spy program – because, after all, “if you’ve done nothing wrong, you’ve got nothing to hide” – then it’s all A-OK. Because there would have been a debate, you see, and that’s the main thing. That’s what gives even morally wrong programs their legitimacy. As long as, say, invasive surveillance, torture, aggressive war and hit squads have been given a sufficient modicum of ‘public input,’ of ‘transparency,’ then that’s all that matters. It would be too radical, too harmful, if one were to condemn such practices out of hand as sickening acts of depravity and state terror.

My word, we don’t want that kind of thing, do we? What we want – as our custodians have repeatedly declared – is to have our carefully vetted revelations provoke a debate that will lead to reform.

But "reform" of what? Reform of the very system that has produced these egregious abuses and capital crimes in the first place. 'Reform' which accepts the premises of imperial power, but simply wishes for a more tasteful, “transparent” application of them, with more “oversight” from the power structure. Such "reform" -- which, as Arthur Silber notes, buys into the basic premises of authoritarianism -- can never be anything other than cosmetic. The result will be what we have already seen with murder, torture and mass surveillance: a "legitimization" of state crimes, and their retrospective justification and entrenchment. For example, witness Candidate Obama's vote to "legitimize" the Bush Regime's unlawful surveillance programs (and to indemnify the powerful corporations suborned in these unconstitutional crimes) in 2008. And his zealous post-election assurances to the security apparat that they will never, ever face justice for their brutality, their murders and their abominable constitutional abuses.

Without making false equivalences, let us momentarily indulge in an assay of alternative history to put these remarkable assertions in some context. Entertain for conjecture this passage from some fictional Berlin newspaper in, say, 1943:

“A spokesman for the Berlin Herald said the paper is publishing the revelations of government whistleblower Dietrich Schmidt because it wants to 'spark a debate' about the Hitler administration’s systematic murder of Jews in the occupied territories. The spokesman said that the Herald is carefully screening the documents they've seen detailing the mass killings.

'We would never simply dump the entire trove of documents on the general public,' said the spokesman. 'That could do a lot of harm to people in the national security apparatus. No, what we are doing is simply what journalists always do: select and edit material that we think the public has a right to know, without doing undue harm to the nation and those who serve it. There has been almost no debate on the policy of killing the Jews of Europe, and we think such a debate would be healthy. If the government believes it's a good idea, then let them make their case to the public, let's all weigh the pros and cons and have a serious discussion of these policies. Perhaps then we can get some real reform and more oversight of the mass murder program. That would give the operations a level of legitimacy they now lack and reduce the administration’s unfortunate propensity for ‘governing in the dark.’”

Of course Snowden and the custodians of his archive would vehemently reject any compromise, any “debate” or “reform” concerning Nazi-style genocide. The example is meant to set a moral question in the starkest relief. But let us be clear: we are talking about moral compromise here. What is at issue is not the level of “legitimacy” that might or might not be produced by a broader “debate” or “reform” of the system. What is at issue is the actual moral content of actual policies being perpetrated by the government: the killing of human beings on the arbitrary order of the state, outside even the slightest pretense of judicial process; invasive surveillance, overturning even the slightest pretense of the integrity, autonomy and individual liberty of citizens; and all that falls between these two poles – such indefinite detention, black ops, and torture. (Obama’s early PR moves to ban some forms of torture by some government agencies have hardly ended government brutality in this regard, as – to take just one known example from this vast, secret world -- the truly horrendous force-feeding of captives in the Guantanamo Bay concentration camp has recently shown.)

Yet we are to believe that an imperial, militaristic system which produces such crimes and abuses as naturally and inevitably as storm-clouds make rain can be “reformed” by a “debate” within the power structure itself.

But again, let’s not be cynical. For surely, the carefully circumscribed NSA revelations will doubtless produce a modicum of reform – perhaps along the lines of the Church Committee reforms of the 1970s, when truly horrendous abuses of invasive government surveillance produced … the secret FISA court, which for decades has secretly approved secret government surveillance with a reliable diligence that would shame a rubber stamp. I’ll bet the “debate” provoked by the Snowden documents might possibly, eventually, expand the number of corporate-bought senators and representatives who sit on the committees overseeing, in secret, the government’s all-pervasive spy programs. Why, we might even get a new secret court to preside over the existing secret court that secretly approves the apparat’s operations. And maybe even a few more Hollywood movies out of it, like Zero Dark Thirty and The Fifth Estate. Now won’t that be something?

Meanwhile, we can divert ourselves with death-squad porn like the piece Gellman and the Post have wrought from the Snowden archive, complete with state-approved leaks from insiders and “former top intelligence officials” eager to turn Snowden’s dissident gold into self-serving imperial dross.

http://chris-floyd.com/component/conten ... hives.html


*

Asset

In intelligence, assets are persons within organizations or countries that are being spied upon who provide information for an outside spy. They are sometimes referred to as agents, and in law enforcement parlance, as confidential informants, or 'CI' for short.

There are different categories of assets, including people that:

[*]Willingly work for a foreign government for ideological reasons such as being against their government, but live in a country that doesn't allow political opposition. They may elect to work with a foreign power to change their own country because there are few other ways available.
[*]Work for monetary gain. Intelligence services often pay good wages to people in important positions that are willing to betray secrets.
[*]Have been blackmailed and are forced into their role.
[As per Herr Riddler, loosely speaking] [*]Do not even know they are being used. Assets can be loyal to their country, but may still provide a foreign agent with information through failures in information safety such as using insecure computers or not following proper OPSEC procedures during day-to-day chatting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asset_%28intelligence%29


*
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Re: Sibel Edmonds destroys Glenn Greenwald

Postby vanlose kid » Sun Jan 26, 2014 2:20 pm

MSM stooge setting Snowden up to be Kil\t!

Image

Edward Snowden is no traitor

By Richard Cohen, Published: October 22

What are we to make of Edward Snowden? I know what I once made of him. He was no real whistleblower, I wrote, but “ridiculously cinematic” and “narcissistic” as well. As time has proved, my judgments were just plain wrong. Whatever Snowden is, he is curiously modest and has bent over backward to ensure that the information he has divulged has done as little damage as possible. As a “traitor,” he lacks the requisite intent and menace.

But traitor is what Snowden has been roundly called. Harry Reid: “I think Snowden is a traitor.” John Boehner: “He’s a traitor.” Rep. Peter King: “This guy is a traitor; he’s a defector.” And Dick Cheney not only denounced Snowden as a “traitor” but also suggested that he might have shared information with the Chinese. This innuendo, as with Saddam Hussein’s weapons of mass destruction, is more proof of Cheney’s unerring determination to be cosmically wrong.

The early denunciations of Snowden now seem both over the top and beside the point. If he is a traitor, then which side did he betray and to whom does he now owe allegiance? Benedict Arnold, America’s most famous traitor, sold out to the British during the Revolutionary War and wound up a general in King George III’s army. Snowden seems to have sold out to no one. In fact, a knowledgeable source says that Snowden has not even sold his life story and has rebuffed offers of cash for interviews. Maybe his most un-American act is passing up a chance at easy money. Someone ought to look into this.

Snowden’s residency in Russia has been forced upon him — he had nowhere else to go. Those people who insist he should come home and go to jail lack a healthy regard for the rigors of imprisonment. After a while it can be no fun. Snowden insists that neither the Russians nor, before them, the Chinese have gotten their grubby hands on his top-secret material, and indeed, this fits with his M.O. He has been careful with his info, doling it out to responsible news organizations — The Post, the New York Times, the Guardian, etc. — and not tossing it up in the air, WikiLeaks style, and echoing the silly mantra “Information wants to be free.” (No. Information, like most of us, wants a home in the Hamptons.)

My initial column on Snowden was predicated on the belief that, really, nothing he revealed was new. Didn’t members of Congress know all this stuff and hadn’t much of it leaked? Yes, that’s largely true. But my mouth is agape at the sheer size of these data-gathering programs — a cascade of news stories that leads me to conclude that this very column was known to the National Security Agency before it was known to my editors. I also wrote that “No one lied about the various programs” Snowden disclosed. But then we found out that James Clapper did. The director of national intelligence was asked at a Senate hearing in March if “the story that we have millions or hundreds of millions of dossiers on people is completely false” and he replied that it was. Actually, it was his answer that was “completely false.”

Snowden is one of those people for whom the conjunction “and” is apt. Normally, I prefer the more emphatic “but” so I could say “Snowden did some good but he did a greater amount of damage.” Trouble is, I’m not sure of that. I am sure, though, that he has instigated a worthwhile debate. I am sure that police powers granted the government will be abused over time and that Snowden is an authentic whistleblower, appalled at what he saw on his computer screen and wishing, like Longfellow’s Paul Revere, to tell “every Middlesex village and farm” what our intelligence agencies were doing. Who do they think they are, Google?

But (and?) I am at a loss to say what should be done with Snowden. He broke the law, this is true. He has been chary with his information, but he cannot know all its ramifications and, anyway, the government can’t allow anyone to decide for himself what should be revealed. That, too, is true. So Snowden is, to my mind, a bit like John Brown, the zealot who intensely felt the inhumanity of slavery and broke the law in an attempt to end the practice. My analogy is not neat — Brown killed some people — but you get the point. I suppose Snowden needs to be punished but not as a traitor. He may have been technically disloyal to America but not, after some reflection, to American values.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ ... story.html


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Vanlose Kid, Hero For Hire

Postby JackRiddler » Sun Jan 26, 2014 2:30 pm

vanlose kid » Sun Jan 26, 2014 12:59 pm wrote:Hope.
Change.
Debate.
Reform.
Vote Democrat in the next election.
Do something.
Don't vote Republican.


Sure, Snowden=Obama.
What's to get?
That's how VK rolls.
He's a hero.
He's going to bring'em all down with some Jesus and black-bloc power.
The empty beer bottles will fly, the system will crumble.
Meanwhile, don't hope, don't change, don't debate, don't reform, don't vote, do nothing. That shit's for patsies.
Just remember our new TP for today,
Snowden=Obama.
Simple, no?

Yes, confusionists and others who make a mutual understanding of reality impossible among all other than the ruling class and the authorities (who tend already to have one, almost by definition) qualify as assets of the fourth sort.

Or the fifth, which was left out of the definitions: The kind who serve the machine not only without knowing it, but even when the managers of the machine itself don't realize it.

You keep serving that revolution, or the ruling class, or whatever. Six of one, half dozen of the other. You totally rock. Wittgenstein Reloaded. We're all dumb flat-foots here.

Of course, Chris Floyd is not well-served by having you as an introducer. Your aggressive Alice-in-Wonderland schtick only shields him from being read. Which may be the idea, for all I know -- confusionism, right? -- so I'll have to get around to him later. But you, you're so much better suited to the straight copy paste with the red bold highlights and such.

.
Last edited by JackRiddler on Sun Jan 26, 2014 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Shh! It's only a trick to re-establish Snowden's cred!

Postby JackRiddler » Sun Jan 26, 2014 2:32 pm

To the point, borrowed from SLAD, here: viewtopic.php?p=532521#p532521

This is more proof that Snowden=Obama. This kind of thing is exactly what Booz and the NSA ordered. Controlled opposition. God, it's so obvious. How do you sheeple fall for the hopium every time?

German TV: Edward Snowden says NSA is involved in industrial sabotage
• Public broadcaster ARD to air interview Sunday night
• Snowden: information not related to national security is taken

theguardian.com, Sunday 26 January 2014 08.59 EST

ARD is scheduled to broadcast its interview with Edward Snowden on Sunday night. Photograph: Uncredited/AP

The National Security Agency is involved in industrial espionage and will take intelligence regardless of its value to national security, the former NSA contractor Edward Snowden has told a German television network.

In text released ahead of a lengthy interview to be broadcast on Sunday, the public broadcaster ARD TV quoted Snowden saying the NSA does not limit its espionage to issues of national security and citing the German engineering firm Siemens as one target.

“If there's information at Siemens that's beneficial to US national interests – even if it doesn't have anything to do with national security – then they'll take that information nevertheless,” Snowden said, according to ARD, which recorded the interview in Russia, where Snowden has claimed asylum.

Snowden also told the German public broadcasting network he no longer has possession of any documents or information on NSA activities and has turned everything he had over to select journalists. He said he did not have any control over the publication of the information, ARD said.

Questions about US government spying on civilians and foreign officials arose last June, when Snowden leaked documents outlining the widespread collection of telephone records and email to media outlets including the Guardian.

Reports that the NSA monitored Chancellor Angela Merkel's mobile phone have added to anger in Germany, which has been pushing for a “no-spy” agreement with the US, a country it considers to be among its closest allies.

Snowden's claim the NSA is engaged in industrial espionage follows a New York Times report earlier this month that the NSA put software in almost 100,000 computers around the world, allowing it to carry out surveillance on those devices and could provide a digital highway for cyberattacks.

The NSA planted most of the software after gaining access to computer networks, but has also used a secret technology that allows it entry even to computers not connected to the internet, the newspaper said, citing US officials, computer experts and documents leaked by Snowden.

The newspaper said the technology had been in use since at least 2008 and relied on a covert channel of radio waves transmitted from tiny circuit boards and USB cards secretly inserted in the computers. Frequent targets of the programme, code-named Quantum, included units of the Chinese military and industrial targets.

Snowden faces criminal charges after fleeing to Hong Kong and then Russia, where he was granted at least a year's asylum. He was charged with theft of government property, unauthorised communication of national security information and giving classified intelligence data to an unauthorised person
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Re: Vanlose Kid, Hero For Hire

Postby vanlose kid » Sun Jan 26, 2014 3:39 pm

JackRiddler » Sun Jan 26, 2014 5:30 pm wrote:
vanlose kid » Sun Jan 26, 2014 12:59 pm wrote:Hope.
Change.
Debate.
Reform.
Vote Democrat in the next election.
Do something.
Don't vote Republican.


Sure, Snowden=Obama.
What's to get?
That's how VK rolls.
He's a hero.
He's going to bring'em all down with some Jesus and black-bloc power.
The empty beer bottles will fly, the system will crumble.
Meanwhile, don't hope, don't change, don't debate, don't reform, don't vote, do nothing. That shit's for patsies.
Just remember our new TP for today,
Snowden=Obama.
Simple, no?

Yes, confusionists and others who make a mutual understanding of reality impossible among all other than the ruling class and the authorities (who tend already to have one, almost by definition) qualify as assets of the fourth sort.

Or the fifth, which was left out of the definitions: The kind who serve the machine not only without knowing it, but even when the managers of the machine itself don't realize it.

You keep serving that revolution, or the ruling class, or whatever. Six of one, half dozen of the other. You totally rock. Wittgenstein Reloaded. We're all dumb flat-foots here.

Of course, Chris Floyd is not well-served by having you as an introducer. Your aggressive Alice-in-Wonderland schtick only shields him from being read. Which may be the idea, for all I know -- confusionism, right? -- so I'll have to get around to him later. But you, you're so much better suited to the straight copy paste with the red bold highlights and such.

.


Jack, you're the one on record recommending people vote democrat, or have you forgotten? That little lead in was an attempt at preempting you're @analysis@ or whatever it is you call the "service" you provide here. I do realize you prefer that everyone sink to your level of assholery because that's the playing field you feel most comfortable in (and its seems the board here approves of it) because you never get cautioned for anything but I'll refrain. It's getting tiresome. I know you do not approve of anyone questioning your heroes. You've made your point. As for that bit about unconscious assets, that's just old school NKVD Freudian mind BS reading where you as enlightened political officer know what everyone else thinks before they even think it because you've read The Interpretation of Dreams and consider it scientific, predictive and conclusive or whatever. Freud, seriously. If you had any sort of insight you'd be embarrassed, actually I hope you get round to it some day, it'll do you a world of good. Two threads in and I haven't yet seen you take up the questions asked of Greenwald or about him in any meaningful way. You've only managed to name call, cast aspersions, bully, and generally (but with a lot of sly trickery) accuse anyone who has doubts about this whole deal of being agents for .gov. And again, you manage to snake your way out of it. I would congratulate you if I didn't think I was doing you a disservice. Some people just don't agree with your estimation of Greenwald or his motives. Why can't you just deal comfortably with that? As for copy/pasting it's what we all do here most of the time so as an accusation or whatever it doesn't really amount to much. Not least because you support it when it fits your view. Oh, now that I'm not (for whatever length of time) on your "foe" list why don't you consider reconsidering your stance on Israel's BFF, the revolutionary hero Al Sisi?

Best wishes.

Get well soon.


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Nordic lives in fantasy world

Postby JackRiddler » Sun Jan 26, 2014 11:40 pm

.

That last VK post was not only mostly false, but also off-off-off-topic. Thus very convenient to ignore. That's also where having him on "foe" helps -- less kitchen sink to scroll over.

Meanwhile, back on our actual thread topic, I've decided that bit from Power of Narrative calls for response after all. Can't help it. Here's a money quote:

Consider the enormous value of the hugely restricted publication of the Snowden documents to the various States involved. Rusbridger, Greenwald, et al. all trumpet the great triumph represented by the "debate" publication has engendered -- the clamor of public voices demands "reform," so committees will be formed, investigations will be undertaken, and when the dust has settled, life for the States involved will go on almost exactly as before (remember: if the NSA were disbanded today, identical surveillance would continue via other agencies and institutions of power) -- and the States will be able to claim that the public knows the "truth," and their activities now have the full blessing of informed public consent.

This is the dream script written by the States themselves -- and it's playing out in blood-drenched, high definition video before the willingly unseeing eyes of the world.


Hmm. If I've understood that properly, the "dream script" is this:

    Act 1: Publication of state secrets reveals previously unsuspected and unreported surveillance programs.

    Act 2: This engenders debate. A clamor of public voices demands reform.

    Act 3: The states involved make a show of responding to said demands, but continue the previously unsuspected and unreported surveillance programs by moving them to other agencies and institutions of power. Life goes on almost exactly as before.

    The moral of the story: If you don't like it that the state keeps illegal secrets, don't reveal them.

You can't make this shit up, except apparently someone did!

But nothing is worse than this:

Rusbridger's comments also raise some important questions. Two of them should be answered by the journalists involved immediately. I have followed the NSA stories fairly closely since they began, and I have to state that, at this point, I have absolutely no idea who actually controls the Snowden documents, or various parts of them. Does the Guardian have its own copy(ies) of the entire Snowden trove? Rusbridger's remarks seem to imply that. But it had appeared that only Greenwald and Poitras now have complete sets (see here for more on this, and this Update as well). And what happens when Greenwald and Poitras work with reporters at other newspapers on stories? Do those reporters get to keep their own copies of the documents about which their stories are written? Or do they only review copies temporarily provided to them? And so on. Since these particular journalists ceaselessly herald the virtues of transparency and accountability, how about some transparency and accountability on this question, especially since it's now become hopelessly muddled? It should be easy to answer: these people -- x, y, possibly, z, a, b, etc. -- have complete sets; these people have partial sets (indicating in at least general terms the categories of documents held by additional individuals). As things stand now, except for knowing that Greenwald and Poitras have complete sets, we don't know who has control of the documents. It seems to me that is of considerable importance. Isn't it in "the public interest" to know which particular people control this allegedly world-shattering information?


Unless there's a reason to think that they're doing something harmful to the public: No. It would just be of considerable danger to whoever has them.

It would certainly be in the state's interest to know that, though. Very much so. It's of considerable importance to them.

These "innocent" demands for detailed information about the security procedures Poitras and Greenwald are using to fight off legal and illegal attacks from the state are really seriously creepy.

Are these authors this naive about what they are demanding? Are they as evil and as far up the NSA's butt as a less charitable but clearly plausible interpretation would allow? Or are they simply a lot dumber and mean-spirited than I imagine? (The two qualities tend to go together.) I don't know. Good writing skills often delude me into thinking someone's got half a brain.

----------------

But let me tell you what's really unsettling:

Imagining how some of these people would have been reacting during the McCarthy hearings, and that period generally. Because we're seeing a version of that campaign, right now.

Rusbridge is the editor of the Guardian and surely no idiot. He knows the UK government lied to co-launch a war of aggression, with genocidal results. He would never say it but since he's not an idiot, he surely thinks that David Kelley was murdered for trying to expose those lies. Everyone in the UK media knows that the UK state bizarrely managed to shift the blame for Kelley's death to the BBC, and to conduct a successful cover-up over six years of bullshit and stymied investigations. Rusbridge also knows the perpetrators of these crimes, Blair and Bush and Straw and Co., are free and living the high life. He knows the same government let Murdoch ride for years, because Murdoch is not free media: he's a sponsor. And when his operation was finally caught red-handed by others, a UK government allowed him to skate in exchange for throwing his faithful peon Brooks into the jaws as a sacrifice. (Wonder what she's getting as a reward down the line?)

So Rusbridge publishes some of the Snowden stuff, and soon he gets a visit from state thugs, who happen to be from one of the agencies that have official license to kill. They ritualistically destroy his computers in his office. He takes it okay, it seems.

Then he gets called in to testify on his news stories and sources, before a panel of real-life political officials who are openly saying they might slap him with charges of terrorism and espionage, the kind of shit that gets you years in solitary followed by a life sentence. And no doubt he's well aware it's never been more true that he MUST WATCH WHAT HE SAYS. He has to parse his words and give all kinds of assurances about how it's all legitimate journalism, and not meant to compromise security or break any laws or fuck with important state policy, etc. etc. Because if he doesn't talk like that, he's only raising his risk. (Although I can also imagine a George Galloway might treat the situation differently, but you can't expect everyone to be a Galloway. Or anyone, really, except for Galloway.)

I'm sure that in the middle of this, it's of little concern what some demented self-designated "dissident" bloggers are writing, and how they are all reaching up from the curb and climbing all over each other in the effort to stab this guy in the back.

But there it is. It's our thread topic.

Certain all-time greatest, least-sheeplish bloggers are insinuating, alongside a few conspiracy merchandisers, that Rusbridge must somehow be a participant in this show of authoritarian force that has been directed at him, and at Snowden, and at Greenwald and Poitras. In fact, said blogging pros have little to nothing to say about the authoritarians. They have no demands to make of the NSA or GCHQ. They aren't going to waste our time criticizing the surveillance state. Heck no, that's all assumed, and they've got much, much smaller fish to fry. They've got some good guys to betray and defame and fuck over. They want to talk about how Rusbridge, Greenwald and Snowden aren't meeting their standards of proper disclosure. They echo the exact same demands that the NSA and GCHQ make: "TELL US WHAT DOCUMENTS YOU HAVE -- TRAITORS!" And traitors they do cry, in a sense; they paint the whistleblowers and journalists who've put themselves on the line as traitors to the purity of the dissident cause, which is something that only they, the bloggers, truly define and represent.

So we can't know, but what would you guess these people would have been doing back in the 1950s in the U.S., when the Rosenbergs were being executed and Dalton Trumbo and Co. were being blacklisted after kangaroo hearings? I expect that then as well, they would have found ways to blame the victims, to defame anyone naive enough to show courage, to confuse the reality into its opposite, and to decorate the authoritarian boot with a lot of self-righteous hooey.

Disgusting.

Yeah, that's you too Nordic. Hope you're proud of yourself.

.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

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Re: Nordic lives in fantasy world

Postby vanlose kid » Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:06 am

JackRiddler » Mon Jan 27, 2014 2:40 am wrote:.

That last VK post was not only mostly false, but also off-off-off-topic. Thus very convenient to ignore. That's also where having him on "foe" helps -- less kitchen sink to scroll over....

.


Jawohl.

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Re: Sibel Edmonds destroys Glenn Greenwald

Postby vanlose kid » Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:32 am

Finally!

The Troof!

Thank you Eddie, thank you Glenn! Thank YOU Jack!

Yay...

Leaked Snowden docs show for first time that DNA test verified identity of Osama bin Laden’s body

Classified intelligence agencies budget reveals details of operation which until now Pentagon had reportedly tried to hide
Adam Withnall
Friday 30 August 2013

A secret laboratory ran DNA tests on Osama bin Laden’s body after he was killed by a Navy Seals commando team, classified US defence documents leaked by Edward Snowden have revealed.

The Pentagon has previously denied that it had any record of such tests, and reportedly handed all its information on the bin Laden operation to the CIA where they were less likely to be made visible to the public.

But former National Security Agency (NSA) contractor Edward Snowden has now gone to the press with secret budget files, held by the Defence Intelligence Agency, which show that forensic tests took place and “provided a conclusive match” on the terrorist leader’s identity.

The so-called “black budget” information was passed on to The Washington Post, and as well as revealing the DNA tests eight hours after bin Laden died, they show that the NSA was able to track calls made by al-Qa’ida operatives, and that reconnaissance missions took more than 387 images of the Abbottabad compound in advance of the raid.

Despite their extensive surveillance operation, US intelligence officials told the president that they could only estimate the chances of bin Laden being present at the compound as between 40 and 60 per cent.

The findings come after previous attempts to gain access to operation details, including the DNA analysis reports, had been blocked by the Defence Department.

The Associated Press said they had submitted Freedom of Information requests asking for these data the day after bin Laden’s death was announced, but almost a year later in March 2012 they were told the Pentagon could not locate any of the files.

In July AP reported that the US’s top special operations commander, Adm. William McRaven, had ordered military files about the raid purged from Defence Department computers and sent to the CIA, where they more easily could be shielded from ever being made public.

And reports said the CIA has not responded to requests for similar records.

The latest release from Edward Snowden comes at the end of the month in which he began life in a secret location somewhere in Russia. The 30-year-old fugitive has been granted a year’s asylum in the eastern European country, leading to a cooling of the relationship between presidents Barack Obama and Vladimir Putin.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 90831.html


Think about how this leak will harm the National Security State and strengthen the terrorists! Think about it!

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You may now go up your own ass unhindered

Postby JackRiddler » Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:37 am

(Wow, now some August 30th, 2013 spectacle story with no particular echo since, about how one of the documents the reporter found in the Snowden cache has the U.S.G. proving to itself that "Bin Ladin" was "Bin Ladin," turns out in VK's mind to have started the entire "war on terror" retroactively, and so radically empowers the State that it must have been the ultimate reason in the first place for the whole fake NSA-Snowden show staged by the forces of Obama and Atheism. Got ya. Impeccable. Wittgenstein be proud.)

So, done here, must take a break (for practical reasons of work and such), my farewell-for-now post is on another thread:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=37667&start=60&p=532756&view=show#p532758

There's a bit of general comedy there (though you'll judge if it's funny or true).

If you want to skip, the part that is relevant to this thread begins about half-way down, at: "If any of you care for a serious take-away, consider the current roots of my rage at many of you."

Though it should read "roots of my current rage." Oh well, no self-editor is omnipotent.

As of now, I am Zen. See you guys in a week to three years. Though you never can tell, I'm sure the board will still be here, and probably still inhabited, actually.

Q. Is the following a wizard's cap or a dunce hat?

:partyhat

A. It's a party hat!
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