How far down the rabbit hole do you go?

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What's typical of the farthest reach your thoughts usually go?

Business interests or right wing define "acceptable" discourse.
2
4%
There was a 9/11 cover-up and LIHOP is plausible.
1
2%
The two-party system is a total corporate scam.
1
2%
Conventional propaganda has achieved mass mind control.
4
8%
9/11 was an inside job from within the MIC.
13
27%
All big events and actors, including opposition, are scripted.
2
4%
9/11 was produced as ritual by secret societies.
3
6%
Mass mind control is effected through water/food/radiation.
4
8%
Egregore is not a metaphor, demons or aliens already rule.
5
10%
This whole thing is a simulation / dream / matrix.
14
29%
 
Total votes : 49

Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you go?

Postby JackRiddler » Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:35 pm

Simulating even a single posthuman civilization might be prohibitively expensive. If so, then we should expect our simulation to be terminated when we are about to become posthuman.


I see he's got it budgeted and CBA'ed. (And here I thought digital was cheaper than analogue.)

Because, you know, posthuman is so fucking expensive compared to the mere matter of doing a full simulation of a merely human civilization to the point where we all are conscious, see the same reality (with the same biosphere and animals) and so on. Bah, boring. Guys like him can code it in their sleep, and they're the hardest part to simulate, since everyone else is so stupid and worthless. Sorry, this is how I see this stuff.

This, like a lot of posthuman speculative work, is not so much philosophy as a search for a workable and stimulating religion that might satisfy techno-intellectual workers under a reductionist materialist neoliberalism. Call that last bit what you will: the next phase of capitalism, Rise of the Machines, etc. Under the systemic logic and given the trajectory of ongoing developments, the human is eventually to be extinguished or replaced or supplanted by its own creations (even if human bodies keep being reproduced). First engineered to a soulless utopian fit, then taken over by new species of our own invention: supermen, bio-mech hybrids made for space, or straight-up machines. Unless we decide we don't want that as a species, which is unlikely.

A mythology is needed for the meantime, to reassure us (or to reassure some of us who are working on that extinguishment) that it's okay because, hey, the human never existed in the first place. None of us do!

I see a lot of these kinds of assurances being fronted in various guises, as the neuroscientific/genetic/behavioral economic explanation for the questions philosophy and social sciences supposedly used to cover.

As a religion for more than a handful of actual humans, however, it misses the part where it satisfies the gaping needs for validation, warmth, belonging, simplicity and fulfillment emanating from most of the human beings, which is why they tend to turn to religion in the first place, and why the big ones (religions, not humans) look like they do. Which is to say, quite unlike this one.

Except for the part where this life we're living, the only one we have, isn't actual, doesn't matter anyway, since everything (in the universe!) was made by an unseen all-powerful creator, of which we are the hobby. That part, he's got down. (Yes! Now I'm figuring out why I'm sometimes offended by this nonsense!) So he's got a substitute for himself, anyway.

Or, wait, maybe he's doing this? A wise guy, eh?


http://www.straightdope.com/columns/rea ... d-of-a-pin

According to unimpeachable sources, it's not how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, it's how many can do it on the point of a needle — which, of course, makes more sense. Second, the earliest citation I can find is from a book by Ralph Cudworth in the 17th century, which is suspiciously late in the day.

Insight on this question is provided by Isaac D'Israeli (1766-1848), the father of British prime minister Benjamin Disraeli. Isaac was an amateur scholar who published a series of books called Curiosities of Literature (the first volume appeared in 1791), which were quite popular in their day. D'Israeli lampooned the Scholastic philosophers of the late Middle Ages, notably Thomas Aquinas (c. 1224-1274), who was famous for debating metaphysical fine points.

Aquinas wrote several ponderous philosophical tomes, the most famous of which was called Summa Theologica, "summary of theology." It contained, among other things, several dozen propositions on the nature of angels, which Thomas attempted to work out by process of pure reason. The results were pretty tortured, and to later generations of hipper-than-thou know-it-alls, they seemed a classic example of good brainpower put to nonsensical ends.

For example, D'Israeli writes, "Aquinas could gravely debate, Whether Christ was not an hermaphrodite [and] whether there are excrements in Paradise." He might also have mentioned such Thomistic puzzlers as whether the hair and nails will grow following the Resurrection, and whether or not said Resurrection will take place at night.

Now to your question. D'Israeli writes, "The reader desirous of being merry with Aquinas's angels may find them in Martinus Scriblerus, in Ch. VII who inquires if angels pass from one extreme to another without going through the middle? And if angels know things more clearly in a morning? How many angels can dance on the point of a very fine needle, without jostling one another?"

Martinus Scriblerus ("Martin the Scribbler") was a pseudonym adopted by the 18th-century wits Alexander Pope, Jonathan Swift, John Gay, Thomas Parnell, and John Arbuthnot, who collaborated on a satirical work entitled Memoirs of the Extraordinary Life, Works, and Discoveries of Martinus Scriblerus, published in 1741. Turning to chapter VII of this book, now available online courtesy of Google, we find the first two questions cited by D'Israeli but not the one about dancing angels. Did D'Israeli make it up? Nah — he undoubtedly cribbed it from the aforementioned Cudworth, who in True Intellectual System of the Universe (1678) writes: "… some who are far from Atheists, may make themselves merry, with that Conceit, of Thousands of Spirits, dancing at once upon a Needles Point …"

We find this last quoted in Mathematics and the Divine: A Historical Study by Teun Koetsier and Luc Bergmans (2004). Koetsier and Bergmans have nosed out a few still earlier antecedents: William Chillingworth in 1648 wrote of clergymen disputing, "Whether a million of angels may not sit upon a needle's point," which in turn may refer to Swester Katrei, "a fourteenth-century German mystical work," in which a character observes, "doctors declare that in heaven a thousand angels can stand on the point of a needle."

Not to drag this out, but you see what's going on: wise guys at work. All the items quoted above are burlesques of actual treatises in Aquinas's Summa. Fact is, Aquinas did debate whether an angel moving from A to B passes through the points in between, and whether one could distinguish "morning" and "evening" knowledge in angels. (He was referring to an abstruse concept having to do with the dawn and twilight of creation.) Finally, he inquired whether several angels could be in the same place at once, which of course is the dancing-on-a-pin question less comically stated. (Tom's answer: no.) So the answer to your question is yes, medieval theologians did get into some pretty weird arguments, if not quite as weird as they were later portrayed.

— Cecil Adams
Last edited by JackRiddler on Sat Jan 18, 2014 9:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you go?

Postby slimmouse » Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:46 pm

Jack. I thought that was pretty fukn good.

So I hate to focus in on my only critical point, but ya know.

He's got a substitute for himself, anyway.


The true spiritualist, as opposed to the religious apologist might argue that their are no other judges, but ourselves.

Its a nice working assumption for how to live your life I reckonl. Atheist or otherwise.
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Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you go?

Postby BrandonD » Sat Jan 18, 2014 8:08 pm

The house of cards that is the contemporary mythology of who we are and where we come from is built upon a mountain of assumptions, generalizations and culturally consensual blind spots.

When one sees and acknowledges this, then the rungs on this rabbit hole ladder don't appear quite so wacky, but merely unconventional.

So then, why do we all try our damndest to keep the thoughts of others in line with our own? Perhaps the reason we all huddle around the warm campfire that is the dominant cultural model of reality is not because of an overwhelming dedication to reason (as we might tell ourselves), but rather an overwhelming fear of isolation.
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Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you go?

Postby justdrew » Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:10 am

BrandonD » 18 Jan 2014 17:08 wrote:The house of cards that is the contemporary mythology of who we are and where we come from is built upon a mountain of assumptions, generalizations and culturally consensual blind spots.

When one sees and acknowledges this, then the rungs on this rabbit hole ladder don't appear quite so wacky, but merely unconventional.

So then, why do we all try our damndest to keep the thoughts of others in line with our own? Perhaps the reason we all huddle around the warm campfire that is the dominant cultural model of reality is not because of an overwhelming dedication to reason (as we might tell ourselves), but rather an overwhelming fear of isolation.


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Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you go?

Postby slimmouse » Sun Jan 19, 2014 5:15 am

BrandonD wrote

Perhaps the reason we all huddle around the warm campfire that is the dominant cultural model of reality is not because of an overwhelming dedication to reason (as we might tell ourselves), but rather an overwhelming fear of isolation.



taken from the "Mystic" Morphic field OP:...

Even according to nerdy quantum physics, intelligent life on this planet now knows everything you do affects everywhere in mind-blowing, non-linear or spatially limited ways. We are all interconnected with everything! What more empowering information could there be?


Whilst the potential of such understanding may not address our physical fears just now when the knock comes at the door (Providing that is they still take the trouble to knock.), it does offer some kind of window on a collective human solution.
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Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you go?

Postby BrandonD » Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:25 am



Thanks alot, now I'm gonna have to go watch Lost Boys...

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Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you go?

Postby Sounder » Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:04 am

brandon D wrote...
The house of cards that is the contemporary mythology of who we are and where we come from is built upon a mountain of assumptions, generalizations and culturally consensual blind spots.


I feel like the mountains of generalizations and culturally consensual blind spots derive from one basic incorrect initial assumption. That is, for political reasons and to suppress enthusiasm, (reinforced perhaps because that is how reality ‘appears’) a split model of reality was institutionalized (rather than an alternative such as a continuum model.)

The truth of this is validated as being a culturally consensual blind spot by the lack of engagement on this point during my whole time on this board. Instead, binary assertions are thrown about with generous heapings of condescension that serve to enforce the boundaries of the tribe. Well Fuck that, my tribe is all of humanity and not one produced by the (unconsciously) neo-liberal ranting of secular materialists.

When one sees and acknowledges this, then the rungs on this rabbit hole ladder don't appear quite so wacky, but merely unconventional.



So then, why do we all try our damndest to keep the thoughts of others in line with our own?


I attribute this to insecurity coupled with a felt need to burnish the righteousness of ones self-identity. Well, that and a split model of reality that has raised coercion via binary thinking into an art form.

Perhaps the reason we all huddle around the warm campfire that is the dominant cultural model of reality is not because of an overwhelming dedication to reason (as we might tell ourselves), but rather an overwhelming fear of isolation.


Yes, that too.
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
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Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you go?

Postby Sounder » Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:05 am

dupe
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
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Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you go?

Postby Iamwhomiam » Tue Jan 21, 2014 4:34 am

Dang, Sounder, you think too much!

I would say more, but I'd rather find allies who'll allow me the occasional glimpse of warmth from the campfire than cause one to feel the need to push me away.

BrandonD wrote,
So then, why do we all try our damndest to keep the thoughts of others in line with our own? Perhaps the reason we all huddle around the warm campfire that is the dominant cultural model of reality is not because of an overwhelming dedication to reason (as we might tell ourselves), but rather an overwhelming fear of isolation.


I see if a bit differently, though surely it is the same; I see it more as a need for acceptance, rather than a fear of isolation. Isolation seems so much scarier than rejection, but again, its all a matter of one's perspective it seems.
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Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you go?

Postby Sounder » Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:11 am

Iam wrote...
Dang, Sounder, you think too much!

Yes Iam, I’ve been told that before. Along with stuff like; ‘what planet are you from’ and ‘so, when was the last time you got a visit from the white coats’?

I would say more, but I'd rather find allies who'll allow me the occasional glimpse of warmth from the campfire than cause one to feel the need to push me away.

Ah but that’s the rub Iam. You are my ally because you want to make the world a better place. But the campfire of normative conceptual structures is being fed with wet punky wood. The flame died out a while ago and now even the heat of the embers is close to finished.

So naturally, folk need to take their flashlight or other preferred lighting devise, take a long walk, and find a better spot for a new campfire.

I.e. we will still maintain social cohesion through a common understanding, but the new understanding will cultivate wonder and awe at the creative potentials of humans and consciousness, properly applied. This, rather than the current campfire where what we call social cohesion is little more than conformity enforced through coercion.

The campfire I hang out at is roaring, the crowd is not huge, but we dance and drum so other folk can hear our love, if only still from in the distance.

BrandonD wrote,
So then, why do we all try our damndest to keep the thoughts of others in line with our own? Perhaps the reason we all huddle around the warm campfire that is the dominant cultural model of reality is not because of an overwhelming dedication to reason (as we might tell ourselves), but rather an overwhelming fear of isolation.



I see if a bit differently, though surely it is the same; I see it more as a need for acceptance, rather than a fear of isolation. Isolation seems so much scarier than rejection, but again, its all a matter of one's perspective it seems.


Acceptance, rejection; who cares, it’s all the same. All that shit, both sides of the binary are about protecting the poor beleaguered ego. Poor thing.

The fear of isolation becomes a moot point when one realizes how inherently and deeply all things are connected.

How’s that for some woo Rory?
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Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you go?

Postby NeonLX » Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:15 am

Sounder » Tue Jan 21, 2014 5:11 am wrote:Acceptance, rejection; who cares, it’s all the same. All that shit, both sides of the binary are about protecting the poor beleaguered ego. Poor thing.



Well, this just hit me like a ton of bird feathers. It *is8 the ego, at the bottom of it all. When I read this post (and others), I asked myself, "How does this mesh with my own thoughts?", and "how does it affect me?"

I guess the first step is to recognize it, eh?
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Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you go?

Postby seemslikeadream » Sat Jan 25, 2014 8:56 pm

bumping so jack can read his own thread again and be reminded how the majority of people here view this world
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you go?

Postby JackRiddler » Sat Jan 25, 2014 9:04 pm

.

SLAD, even real mobs would not impress me. Let alone the notional ones you've formed in your head on the basis of misreading this poll.

.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
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Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you go?

Postby seemslikeadream » Sat Jan 25, 2014 9:06 pm

JackRiddler » Sat Jan 25, 2014 8:04 pm wrote:.

SLAD, even real mobs would not impress me. Let alone the notional ones you've formed in your head on the basis of misreading this poll.

.



I'm not misreading anything jack....your world view is not in the majority here...quit acting like a fucking bully
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you go?

Postby JackRiddler » Sat Jan 25, 2014 9:16 pm

So let's say my world-view isn't in the majority around here. Like I care. You're saying that expressing myself anyway is bullying? How easily threatened you are, rabbit.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

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