Anti-Imperialism & Anti-Humanist Rhetoric of Gilad Atzmon

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Re: Anti-Imperialism & Anti-Humanist Rhetoric of Gilad Atzmo

Postby barracuda » Tue May 08, 2012 10:13 pm

Searcher08 wrote:First, I have not talked about any '&Co'.


I never said you did..

Second, I have not read Alice's 'definition of racism', so have no idea what you are talking about.


I pulled this from back in the olden days of the thread:

Alice wrote:racism -- especially in the devastatingly destructive form of institutional racism -- is an effect of unequal power (and therefore wealth) distribution, not their cause


Third, to characterise people interested in what Atzmon has to say as 'white supremacist nazis' is untrue, and actually quite slanderous. It is the second time on this thread you have said I am a nazi. That's not on. You are having a shit all over my good name. I'm sure both of us would rather avoid pleasantness. It is really not needed, I do not understand why you are persisting in doing it. It is really offensive to someone who had family in the RN in the last war.

So I'll ask you nicely to withdraw it unambiguously as this is real 'noise' with no added value. I wanted to craft a reply to many points from c2w still outstanding and haven't as I have been doing THIS.


First, I was referring to supporters such as the readers of Stormfront and various antisemitic French book-buyers.

Second, I crossed it out.

Third, and for the record...

I, barracuda, do not consider Searcher08 to be a NAZI.
Hereby affirmed and attested to on this, the eighth day of the month of May in the year of Our Lord Two-Thousand and Twelve.


...though why you'd think that might be in anyway a helpful addition to your resume around here, particularly in light of the circumstances of my participation on this thread, I'm completely unsure.
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Re: Anti-Imperialism & Anti-Humanist Rhetoric of Gilad Atzmo

Postby American Dream » Tue May 08, 2012 10:38 pm

This all makes me think of some quotes offered up by Alex Constantine in defense of his reference to David Icke as a neo-Nazi. I can already hear the voices trying to slough it off whilst avoiding the content: "Chip Berlet is anti-conspiracy" (He says that too much of it is a trojan horse for the far right!). "Wikipedia is not reliable- people could post almost anything" (true enough but still lots of accurate information to be found there!).

Ok, ok, fine- but the information that Alex Constantine chose to include is indeed factual- and that does begin to shine a light on important issues which the Atzmon fans would clearly like to avoid.:
" ... Icke enthusiastically embraced the classic Nazi conspiracy theory [in Robots' Rebellion], alleging that the world is controlled by a secret cadre of "The Elite." He openly endorsed The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, the Tsarist anti-Semitic forgery that informed Hitler's notion of a global Jewish conspiracy. ... "
http://www.publiceye.org/Icke/IckeBackgrounder.htm


Re: "...and the truth shall set you free." - "The book repeated Icke's previous claims that the Protocols were true, and went on to state: 'I strongly believe that a small Jewish clique which has contempt for the mass of Jewish people worked with non-Jews to create the First World War, the Russian Revolution, and the Second World War.... They then dominated the Versailles Peace Conference and created the circumstances which made the Second World War inevitable. They financed Hitler to power in 1933 and made the funds available for his rearmament.'"
http://www.publiceye.org/Icke/IckeBackgrounder.htm


Wikipedia: "Icke has cited white supremacist, neo-Nazi and other far-right publications in his books. British journalist Simon Jones notes that the bibliography of … And the Truth Shall Set You Free lists The Spotlight, formerly published by the now-defunct Liberty Lobby, and which Icke calls "excellent," and On Target, published by the Australian League of Rights, which has organised speaking tours for Holocaust denier David Irving. Jones writes: "It's tempting to dismiss David Icke as a confused and ignorant man, manipulated by extremists in order to present their philosophy in a socially acceptable format. But Icke clearly understands the implications of his words."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Icke


GREENS TO PROTEST DAVID ICKE AT HART HOUSE THEATRE, OCT 6
http://list.flora.org/pipermail/action- ... 00636.html

"September 30, 1999. The Green Party of Ontario plans to protest the October 6, 1999 speech of anti-semite, David Icke, if Hart House Theatre does not cancel the booking. According to Frank de Jong, Green Party of Ontario leader, 'Offering a platform to new age conspiracy theorist and anti-semite David Icke is bad judgement on the part of the U of T.' David Icke was removed from the British Green Party for his anti-Semitic writings. ... "


http://aconstantineblacklist.blogspot.c ... -nazi.html
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Re: Anti-Imperialism & Anti-Humanist Rhetoric of Gilad Atzmo

Postby compared2what? » Tue May 08, 2012 11:52 pm

Searcher08 wrote:
norton ash wrote:It's a New York Intellectual Alexandrine, this life.

Ya mean like Pope?
A needless alexandrine ends the thread
that like a wounded Greenstein, drags its slow length dead.

So I take it that c2w, Cuda and AD do not consider Omar's remarks racist??


I sure don't. Are you saying you do???

"We don't mind him saying racist things cos he signed our anti-Atzmon declaration"


I didn't know (or, I guess, it didn't register) that he was a signatory. But that certainly makes sense. In fact, a lot more sense than it did when it was just over his non-racism.

Same story, either way, though. It's predictable. They'll keep demolishing anyone "other" who doesn't toe the line, until they run out of them. Then they'll go in-group.

Horrible.
______________

I sometimes wish that George Orwell had lived long enough to write a preface to Animal Farm saying: "It's not just about the Soviets, you know. Seriously. I totally would have made it clear that it applied to Nazis and other right-wing fascists, too, if I hadn't been under the impression that everyone already knew that."

Because you really can't trust them. And yet, people keep doing it.
Last edited by compared2what? on Wed May 09, 2012 12:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anti-Imperialism & Anti-Humanist Rhetoric of Gilad Atzmo

Postby compared2what? » Wed May 09, 2012 12:18 am

AlicetheKurious wrote:Anyway. This tangent is not exactly central to the main issues raised by this thread.


I accept your apology and retraction. Thanks.


Alice wrote:Omar Barghouti's remarks were indeed racist. If he'd substituted "Jews" for "white people", they would be as well. People should not be 'blamed' for being white, or being Jewish, or being Arab, or Christian, or Muslim.


I agree that they shouldn't.

But I'll be goshdarned if I can see how he blamed anybody for anything. It was perfectly clear that he was talking about European and American western societies, which were and are white -- and also happen to have a very long history (extending into the present) of treating Arabs as a racial group with a predisposition for acts of violent savagery.

So, yeah. He might have put it more delicately. But since (a) he didn't say anything wrong or personally offensive; and (b) nobody who wasn't wilfully misconstruing his remarks could possibly have sincerely thought that what he said indicated that he was full of hatred and resentment towards all white people, whom he saw as all being the same -- I don't think he deserves to be knee-capped (or called a possible zionist agent) for not bothering to.

Frankly. He's not anybody's servant, or satellite. He's entitled to speak from the worldview he has.

ON EDIT: I mean, are you for Palestinian self-determination? Or do you just want to dance with whoever hates Jews the most?

Alice wrote:racism -- especially in the devastatingly destructive form of institutional racism -- is an effect of unequal power (and therefore wealth) distribution, not their cause.


That would seem to contrast with your remarks above.
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Re: Anti-Imperialism & Anti-Humanist Rhetoric of Gilad Atzmo

Postby AlicetheKurious » Wed May 09, 2012 6:05 am

compared2what? wrote:I accept your apology and retraction. Thanks.


Talk about Orwellian!

compared2what? wrote:It was perfectly clear that he was talking about European and American western societies, which were and are white -- and also happen to have a very long history (extending into the present) of treating Arabs as a racial group with a predisposition for acts of violent savagery.


No, European and American Western states happen to have a very long history of armed robbery on a massive scale, which they obscure and justify by systematically demonizing and dehumanizing the people whose rights they violate in the process.

Omar Barghouti wrote:"Normally I am nice, but I won't take this from a white person lecturing us about non-violence. And I added something that may have sounded racist, you know: the "white race" is, like, the most violent in the history of mankind. Just look at World War I and II and the Holocaust and, you know, and on, and on, and on, and colonialism and...you just don't lecture us about violence and non-violence."


To me, it's a strange statement, especially for a responsible spokesman for an international non-racial, anti-racist movement to make. Omar Barghouti may, indeed, have been influenced by the same racist thinking of the zionists that he opposes. Those of us who are familiar with zionist logic would recognize it instantly. It's the classic zionist argument: "After the Holocaust, when the world stood by and did nothing as millions of Jews were murdered, NO non-Jew, anywhere, has the right to criticize ANYTHNG that Israel does." It's the logic by which any German today, who objects to Israeli war crimes, or who defends Palestinian human rights, is accused of being a Nazi.

It's the kind of statement I dislike, but would find more understandable if made by a black person who's been oppressed by those who claimed superior rights on the basis of their 'whiteness', especially in the context of a racist state that systematically oppresses black people and privileges whites. Similarly, in a misogynist society, some women blame 'men' for the systematic oppression of women, rather than focusing their struggle on delegitimizing the chauvinist ideology that justifies it, and redressing the institutional factors that enforce it. It's not logical, but the context nurtures this kind of misguided thinking. The Palestinian people are being destroyed explicitly and officially in the name of "Jewishness", an ideology that ascribes superior rights to Jews, not "whiteness", but Omar Barghouti would not have the guts to make a similarly erroneous statement ascribing racial blame to all Jews. If he had, instead of being applauded, he would have been booed off the stage.

Nobody is 'good' or 'bad' because of their 'race'. The Palestinian people are engaged in a political and humanitarian struggle, not a racial one. Barghouti could have asked the French person to direct her calls for non-violence to her own government, who recently 'liberated' Libya to smithereens, and who is complicit with the US, Saudi Arabia and Israel in supporting armed violence in Syria, with considerable support from French socialists. He could have asked her if her principled rejection of armed struggle is consistent, or only applies to Palestinians.

He could have quoted to her from UN General Assembly Resolution 36/103 which affirms:

The right and duty of States fully to support the right to self-determination, freedom and independence of peoples under colonial domination, foreign occupation or racist regimes, as well as the right of these peoples to wage both political and armed struggle to that end, in accordance with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations;


And informed her that just as Palestinians have the right to wage armed struggle, should they (not she) determine that it is the appropriate course of action at a particular time, it is her duty to support their struggle for liberation as long as they employ legal means to wage it.

compared2what? wrote:Frankly. He's not anybody's servant, or satellite. He's entitled to speak from the worldview he has.

ON EDIT: I mean, are you for Palestinian self-determination? Or do you just want to dance with whoever hates Jews the most?


Of course he's entitled to speak his mind, just as Atzmon and others are entitled to point out his hypocrisy in making such a biological determinist, ie racist, statement, especially since he recently joined the call to boycott Gilad Atzmon, who is not a racist, and who doesn't recognize, let alone justify, any hierarchy of 'rights' or morality linked to skin color or religion.

The Palestinian struggle is about making the world recognize and respect one standard of justice for all people and equality under the law. If Omar Barghouti ascribes, as his statement indicates, different 'rights' and moral traits to others on the basis of skin color or religion or gender or whatever, then he is mistaken, in my opinion, and is unwittingly mirroring, and therefore reinforcing, the world-view that he claims to oppose.

compared2what? wrote:
Alice wrote:racism -- especially in the devastatingly destructive form of institutional racism -- is an effect of unequal power (and therefore wealth) distribution, not their cause.


That would seem to contrast with your remarks above.


How?
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Re: Anti-Imperialism & Anti-Humanist Rhetoric of Gilad Atzmo

Postby Searcher08 » Wed May 09, 2012 9:19 am

First, Cuda - Thank You. Peace. :hug1:

second, AD - to clarify, when you say 'This all..', are you referring to the whole thread?
Cheers


American Dream wrote:This all makes me think of some quotes offered up by Alex Constantine in defense of his reference to David Icke as a neo-Nazi. I can already hear the voices trying to slough it off whilst avoiding the content: "Chip Berlet is anti-conspiracy" (He says that too much of it is a trojan horse for the far right!). "Wikipedia is not reliable- people could post almost anything" (true enough but still lots of accurate information to be found there!).

Ok, ok, fine- but the information that Alex Constantine chose to include is indeed factual- and that does begin to shine a light on important issues which the Atzmon fans would clearly like to avoid.:
" ... Icke enthusiastically embraced the classic Nazi conspiracy theory [in Robots' Rebellion], alleging that the world is controlled by a secret cadre of "The Elite." He openly endorsed The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, the Tsarist anti-Semitic forgery that informed Hitler's notion of a global Jewish conspiracy. ... "
http://www.publiceye.org/Icke/IckeBackgrounder.htm


Re: "...and the truth shall set you free." - "The book repeated Icke's previous claims that the Protocols were true, and went on to state: 'I strongly believe that a small Jewish clique which has contempt for the mass of Jewish people worked with non-Jews to create the First World War, the Russian Revolution, and the Second World War.... They then dominated the Versailles Peace Conference and created the circumstances which made the Second World War inevitable. They financed Hitler to power in 1933 and made the funds available for his rearmament.'"
http://www.publiceye.org/Icke/IckeBackgrounder.htm


Wikipedia: "Icke has cited white supremacist, neo-Nazi and other far-right publications in his books. British journalist Simon Jones notes that the bibliography of … And the Truth Shall Set You Free lists The Spotlight, formerly published by the now-defunct Liberty Lobby, and which Icke calls "excellent," and On Target, published by the Australian League of Rights, which has organised speaking tours for Holocaust denier David Irving. Jones writes: "It's tempting to dismiss David Icke as a confused and ignorant man, manipulated by extremists in order to present their philosophy in a socially acceptable format. But Icke clearly understands the implications of his words."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Icke


GREENS TO PROTEST DAVID ICKE AT HART HOUSE THEATRE, OCT 6
http://list.flora.org/pipermail/action- ... 00636.html

"September 30, 1999. The Green Party of Ontario plans to protest the October 6, 1999 speech of anti-semite, David Icke, if Hart House Theatre does not cancel the booking. According to Frank de Jong, Green Party of Ontario leader, 'Offering a platform to new age conspiracy theorist and anti-semite David Icke is bad judgement on the part of the U of T.' David Icke was removed from the British Green Party for his anti-Semitic writings. ... "


http://aconstantineblacklist.blogspot.c ... -nazi.html
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Re: Anti-Imperialism & Anti-Humanist Rhetoric of Gilad Atzmo

Postby American Dream » Wed May 09, 2012 12:22 pm

Searcher08 wrote:AD - to clarify, when you say 'This all..', are you referring to the whole thread?


American Dream wrote:This all makes me think of some quotes offered up by Alex Constantine in defense of his reference to David Icke as a neo-Nazi. I can already hear the voices trying to slough it off whilst avoiding the content: "Chip Berlet is anti-conspiracy" (He says that too much of it is a trojan horse for the far right!). "Wikipedia is not reliable- people could post almost anything" (true enough but still lots of accurate information to be found there!).

Ok, ok, fine- but the information that Alex Constantine chose to include is indeed factual- and that does begin to shine a light on important issues which the Atzmon fans would clearly like to avoid.:

" ... Icke enthusiastically embraced the classic Nazi conspiracy theory [in Robots' Rebellion], alleging that the world is controlled by a secret cadre of "The Elite." He openly endorsed The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, the Tsarist anti-Semitic forgery that informed Hitler's notion of a global Jewish conspiracy. ... "
http://www.publiceye.org/Icke/IckeBackgrounder.htm


Re: "...and the truth shall set you free." - "The book repeated Icke's previous claims that the Protocols were true, and went on to state: 'I strongly believe that a small Jewish clique which has contempt for the mass of Jewish people worked with non-Jews to create the First World War, the Russian Revolution, and the Second World War.... They then dominated the Versailles Peace Conference and created the circumstances which made the Second World War inevitable. They financed Hitler to power in 1933 and made the funds available for his rearmament.'"
http://www.publiceye.org/Icke/IckeBackgrounder.htm


Wikipedia: "Icke has cited white supremacist, neo-Nazi and other far-right publications in his books. British journalist Simon Jones notes that the bibliography of … And the Truth Shall Set You Free lists The Spotlight, formerly published by the now-defunct Liberty Lobby, and which Icke calls "excellent," and On Target, published by the Australian League of Rights, which has organised speaking tours for Holocaust denier David Irving. Jones writes: "It's tempting to dismiss David Icke as a confused and ignorant man, manipulated by extremists in order to present their philosophy in a socially acceptable format. But Icke clearly understands the implications of his words."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Icke


GREENS TO PROTEST DAVID ICKE AT HART HOUSE THEATRE, OCT 6
http://list.flora.org/pipermail/action- ... 00636.html

"September 30, 1999. The Green Party of Ontario plans to protest the October 6, 1999 speech of anti-semite, David Icke, if Hart House Theatre does not cancel the booking. According to Frank de Jong, Green Party of Ontario leader, 'Offering a platform to new age conspiracy theorist and anti-semite David Icke is bad judgement on the part of the U of T.' David Icke was removed from the British Green Party for his anti-Semitic writings. ... "


http://aconstantineblacklist.blogspot.c ... -nazi.html


I really shouldn't care to throw any salve to you at all after your participation in group bullying behaviors here on this thread with all the repetitive ad hominem used as a very poor substitute for substantive argument. I have little goodwill for any of y'all at this point- and no interest in back and forth whatsoever.

That said: I was referring to barracuda's (half-joking?) comment about Atzmon being true to his core group of neo-Nazi supporters. It's quite clear that in the realm of world Jewish conspiracy discourse there really are Nazis in the mix, as well as crypto-Nazis, white supremacists, anti-Semites etc. Probably they are outnumbered in some situations by befuddled "true believer" types who lack awareness of their own racism.

As to why Gilad Atzmon, Israel Shamir, David Icke, Michael Hoffman, Paul Eisen and others do what they do- I smell a rat, though I do imagine that there are some ideologically committed racists in the mix and some working for pay from shadowy sources- and it need not be either/or.

That's it- end of story...
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Re: Anti-Imperialism & Anti-Humanist Rhetoric of Gilad Atzmo

Postby AlicetheKurious » Wed May 09, 2012 2:11 pm

American Dream wrote:I really shouldn't care to throw any salve to you at all after your participation in group bullying behaviors here on this thread with all the repetitive ad hominem used as a very poor substitute for substantive argument.


How disorienting to be lectured by you about your own stock-in-trade: ad hominem used as a very poor substitute for substantive argument, and about group bullying. You have made no substantive argument whatsoever in this thread. None. Instead, you've repeatedly posted and re-posted a document that is the epitome of 'group bullying' against Gilad Atzmon. In fact, right on the first page, Searcher was prompted to comment very politely:

Searcher08 wrote:I would like to suggest the reposting of an OP when the thread is still on the first page does not add a great deal.


That was right on the first page!

You've shown nothing but contempt for the intelligence of your readers, not even taking the trouble to address and critique Atzmon's real arguments yourself. All you've done is framing and ordering people what to think, or be labeled a 'nazi'

American Dream wrote:I have little goodwill for any of y'all at this point- and no interest in back and forth whatsoever.


Who knew?
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Re: Anti-Imperialism & Anti-Humanist Rhetoric of Gilad Atzmo

Postby compared2what? » Wed May 09, 2012 2:16 pm

AlicetheKurious wrote:
compared2what? wrote:I accept your apology and retraction. Thanks.


Talk about Orwellian!


Sarcasm, intended to connote:

Stop wasting my time,, you silly bitch.

compared2what? wrote:It was perfectly clear that he was talking about European and American western societies, which were and are white -- and also happen to have a very long history (extending into the present) of treating Arabs as a racial group with a predisposition for acts of violent savagery.


No, European and American Western states happen to have a very long history of armed robbery on a massive scale, which they obscure and justify by systematically demonizing and dehumanizing the people whose rights they violate in the process.

Omar Barghouti wrote:"Normally I am nice, but I won't take this from a white person lecturing us about non-violence. And I added something that may have sounded racist, you know: the "white race" is, like, the most violent in the history of mankind. Just look at World War I and II and the Holocaust and, you know, and on, and on, and on, and colonialism and...you just don't lecture us about violence and non-violence."


To me, it's a strange statement, especially for a responsible spokesman for an international non-racial, anti-racist movement to make. Omar Barghouti may, indeed, have been influenced by the same racist thinking of the zionists that he opposes. Those of us who are familiar with zionist logic would recognize it instantly. It's the classic zionist argument: "After the Holocaust, when the world stood by and did nothing as millions of Jews were murdered, NO non-Jew, anywhere, has the right to criticize ANYTHNG that Israel does." It's the logic by which any German today, who objects to Israeli war crimes, or who defends Palestinian human rights, is accused of being a Nazi.

It's the kind of statement I dislike, but would find more understandable if made by a black person who's been oppressed by those who claimed superior rights on the basis of their 'whiteness', especially in the context of a racist state that systematically oppresses black people and privileges whites. Similarly, in a misogynist society, some women blame 'men' for the systematic oppression of women, rather than focusing their struggle on delegitimizing the chauvinist ideology that justifies it, and redressing the institutional factors that enforce it. It's not logical, but the context nurtures this kind of misguided thinking. The Palestinian people are being destroyed explicitly and officially in the name of "Jewishness", an ideology that ascribes superior rights to Jews, not "whiteness", but Omar Barghouti would not have the guts to make a similarly erroneous statement ascribing racial blame to all Jews. If he had, instead of being applauded, he would have been booed off the stage.

Nobody is 'good' or 'bad' because of their 'race'. The Palestinian people are engaged in a political and humanitarian struggle, not a racial one. Barghouti could have asked the French person to direct her calls for non-violence to her own government, who recently 'liberated' Libya to smithereens, and who is complicit with the US, Saudi Arabia and Israel in supporting armed violence in Syria, with considerable support from French socialists. He could have asked her if her principled rejection of armed struggle is consistent, or only applies to Palestinians.

He could have quoted to her from UN General Assembly Resolution 36/103 which affirms:

The right and duty of States fully to support the right to self-determination, freedom and independence of peoples under colonial domination, foreign occupation or racist regimes, as well as the right of these peoples to wage both political and armed struggle to that end, in accordance with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations;


And informed her that just as Palestinians have the right to wage armed struggle, should they (not she) determine that it is the appropriate course of action at a particular time, it is her duty to support their struggle for liberation as long as they employ legal means to wage it.

compared2what? wrote:Frankly. He's not anybody's servant, or satellite. He's entitled to speak from the worldview he has.

ON EDIT: I mean, are you for Palestinian self-determination? Or do you just want to dance with whoever hates Jews the most?


Of course he's entitled to speak his mind, just as Atzmon and others are entitled to point out his hypocrisy in making such a biological determinist, ie racist, statement, especially since he recently joined the call to boycott Gilad Atzmon, who is not a racist, and who doesn't recognize, let alone justify, any hierarchy of 'rights' or morality linked to skin color or religion.

The Palestinian struggle is about making the world recognize and respect one standard of justice for all people and equality under the law. If Omar Barghouti ascribes, as his statement indicates, different 'rights' and moral traits to others on the basis of skin color or religion or gender or whatever, then he is mistaken, in my opinion, and is unwittingly mirroring, and therefore reinforcing, the world-view that he claims to oppose.

compared2what? wrote:
Alice wrote:racism -- especially in the devastatingly destructive form of institutional racism -- is an effect of unequal power (and therefore wealth) distribution, not their cause.


That would seem to contrast with your remarks above.


How?


Please see above.
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Re: Anti-Imperialism & Anti-Humanist Rhetoric of Gilad Atzmo

Postby compared2what? » Wed May 09, 2012 2:21 pm

It would be one thing if you cared about Palestinians. But you don't. If -- by some miraculous chance -- they reached some kind of accommodation with Israel, you'd throw them over for Hezbollah in a New-York-Jew-Minute. They're just props in your psychodrama.

I'll pray for you.
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Re: Anti-Imperialism & Anti-Humanist Rhetoric of Gilad Atzmo

Postby Searcher08 » Wed May 09, 2012 3:08 pm

A short thread intermission... for some anteater humour :thumbsup

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Re: Anti-Imperialism & Anti-Humanist Rhetoric of Gilad Atzmo

Postby AlicetheKurious » Wed May 09, 2012 3:09 pm

compared2what? wrote:Stop wasting my time,, you silly bitch.


compared2what? wrote:It would be one thing if you cared about Palestinians. But you don't. If -- by some miraculous chance -- they reached some kind of accommodation with Israel, you'd throw them over for Hezbollah in a New-York-Jew-Minute. They're just props in your psychodrama.

I'll pray for you.


?????????????????????
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Re: Anti-Imperialism & Anti-Humanist Rhetoric of Gilad Atzmo

Postby barracuda » Wed May 09, 2012 3:54 pm

compared2what? wrote:It would be one thing if you cared about Palestinians. But you don't. If -- by some miraculous chance -- they reached some kind of accommodation with Israel, you'd throw them over for Hezbollah in a New-York-Jew-Minute. They're just props in your psychodrama.


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Re: Anti-Imperialism & Anti-Humanist Rhetoric of Gilad Atzmo

Postby Searcher08 » Wed May 09, 2012 4:54 pm

I shall ignore the personal comments, Alice's comments were exactly what I felt...

Back to Topic..., this was in reply to AD's reply to me

Well my searching at St0rnfr3nt indicates curiousity about him, but not fanclubdom - and not very much interest at that. I did some searching for a couple of hours at the site, as I posted in the exchange with Cuda earlier, which produced numbers that clearly point in that direction FWIW

Similarly my understanding is that far right organisations (at least in the UK and US) are hugely compromised by intel agencies for years, at a level that matches that of both fundamentalist Islamist organisations and formerly, the animal rights movement. White Salafists against Kosher Animal Kruelty would just be the worst organisation... :angelwings:

The big debate seems to me to be on the primarily among leftists who are also Jewish and among western activists, although it is obviously difficult to be quantitative.

I quite agree that there could be nazis involved in the picture, but I think there are probably far fewer than the potential / actuality for ADL-type infiltration. Who specifically are these nazis? Who is funding them? etc etc

The ADL have already been shown in court to have mounted large scale illegal surveillance activities of people they perceived as opponents. My concern over the ADL is their militarisation of the Holocaust narrative to young people. There is an 'amplification of response' process I see happening, where 'that which is not understood is taken as an immanent threat' - see the response in 'Defamation' of the Israeli girl who was speaking Hebrew to some old Polish guys.
That taken with the Aushwitz /Poland visit becoming a mandatory 'trauma imprinting and IDF bonding rite' which my instinct said was something very BAD, done for what were considered very GOOD reasons.

My concern is that I see this as actually makes the world less safe for everyone.
Last edited by Searcher08 on Wed May 09, 2012 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anti-Imperialism & Anti-Humanist Rhetoric of Gilad Atzmo

Postby compared2what? » Wed May 09, 2012 5:26 pm

American Dream wrote:As to why Gilad Atzmon, Israel Shamir, David Icke, Michael Hoffman, Paul Eisen and others do what they do- I smell a rat, though I do imagine that there are some ideologically committed racists in the mix and some working for pay from shadowy sources- and it need not be either/or.

That's it- end of story...


I agree. I mean, one could also add a coda to the effect of "You're never going to get any insight into the Jewish heart, mind, character, or culture from a man who bases his definition of Judaism on New Covenant theology," just to confirm that absolutely nobody who's capable of listening to reason in any form is out there.

But that's not really necessary, even I admit. It's just optimistic.

Cheers, AD. Thanks once again for the thread.
“If someone comes out of a liquor store with a weapon and 50 dollars in cash I don’t care if a Drone kills him or a policeman kills him.” -- Rand Paul
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