Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby Spiro C. Thiery » Fri May 01, 2020 6:46 am

Elvis » Yesterday, 19:21 wrote:I'm thinking I may have caught the virus in February... [snip mine]
Of course no way to know without an antibody test?


This calls me back several pages to an exchange regarding Germany's successful testing and tracking regime cited by JR. I contributed anecdotal experience to discuss what that included and what it didn't, i.e. tests remaining nevertheless for those who can confirm both the specified symptoms and known contact, and anyone else who meets merely one of those criteria advised to self-isolate in ignorance for 14 days.

The promised antibody testing, I mused, would not likely be sagaciously implemented for the greater good of public health, but a parcelled out, or not, the way of all things in demand, which, of course, makes zero logical sense except to allay the concerns of folks of excess wealth and determined self-importance that they can enjoy some sense of immunity for a yet to be determined amount of time.

How ignorant I have turned out to be! As of recently in Berlin, the publicly insured can get drive-up antibody tested for only 60 euro dollars, 99 for those with private insurance (and, yes, there are uninsured in Germany, though it's mandated otherwise for anyone with any status of residence). While the price is understandably attributed to covering cost, the availability is for anyone who wants to get around the fact that the same tests at similar drive-ups run by public health officials are limited by the same standard as the aforementioned.

In the context that this thread seems to have become predominantly a dispute about the level of urgency this pandemic demands, I wonder how important it is that we ever know how many have contracted this thing they call Sars-CoV-2.
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby liminalOyster » Sun May 03, 2020 4:09 am

'How is this possible?' Researchers grapple with Covid-19's mysterious mechanism
Doctors are still exploring exactly how the coronavirus affects the body, and what its long-term impacts might be

Melissa Davey
Sat 2 May 2020 16.00 EDTLast modified on Sat 2 May 2020 16.31 EDT

Respiratory physician Dr David Darley says something peculiar happens to a small group of Covid-19 patients on day seven of their symptoms.

“Up until the end of that first week, they’re stable,” says Darley, a doctor with Sydney’s St Vincent’s Hospital. “And then suddenly, they have this hyper-inflammatory response. The proteins involved in that inflammation start circulating in the body at high levels.”

In these patients, the lungs begin to struggle. Blood pressure lowers. Other organs, including the kidneys, may begin to shut down. Blood clots form throughout the body. The brain and intestines may also be affected. Some suffer changes to their personality, suggesting brain damage.

“I think what is evolving is a very specific set of stages of disease and for some reason, not everyone goes through all of the stages,” Darley says. “Some go through to the most severe stage and they require breathing support and oxygen. These patients who are severe tend to be older, they are more likely to be men, and also have other medical problems like diabetes, high blood pressure or cardiovascular disease.”

But there is no way of knowing which patients will be affected by the most severe symptoms. Clinicians like Darley hope that a disease biomarker – a unique characteristic in the blood, body fluids, or tissues – will eventually be discovered for each stage.

“It would help clinicians predict what stage patients are at and maybe even if they will progress to the next stage of disease,” he said. “It could help us predict who needs to be more closely observed in hospitals and would mean we have all the systems ready to go if they worsen. And it would give us more confidence to have them discharged to home if a biomarker says they are low risk for developing severe illness.”

Darley is one of the researchers working on a long-term St Vincent’s study of patients admitted to the hospital with Covid-19. Patients will be followed for a year after being discharged, receiving tests at regular intervals to see if there are any lasting effects or changes in the body’s immune system and blood. They will also be assessed for any ongoing changes to lung, gut and brain functions. No one yet knows if the virus causes permanent or long-term harm.

“I don’t think it’s clear yet whether it’s the virus infecting the lungs and the blood vessels, or if it’s the body’s immune system which goes out of control which then causes lung and blood vessel injury,” Darley said. “Or, it could be a combination of both.

“The pathogenesis is not clear yet. We are observing brain inflammation in a subset of patients, and in those we are seeing agitation and a change in behaviour or personality. That’s really interesting, and there are reports coming from elsewhere of some people, including younger patients, suffering stroke. It’s unclear whether the virus is infecting the lining cells of blood vessels in the brain, or whether the patient’s blood is excessively prone to clotting because of all the inflammation, leading to stroke.”

A renowned intensive care specialist from Italy, Prof Luciano Gattinoni, said this type of clotting in respiratory diseases is “extremely unusual”.

The 75-year-old has been working in intensive care for 40 years, and said he has never seen anything like what is happening to the lungs of some Covid-19 patients. What is particularly baffling is patients are presenting with poor oxygenation but little lung damage. This type of presentation is more typical of patients suffering from altitude sickness than a viral infection, Gattignoni says. As a result, patients who are very sick may not feel like they’re really struggling to breathe – even as they’re being critically deprived of oxygen.

“How is this possible?” Gattinoni told Guardian Australia from the intensive care department of the German hospital where he is working as a guest professor. “Bad oxygenation and good lungs tells me this must have something to do with the blood vessels. But these vessels are everywhere. In the brain. In the kidneys. So, in some patients, many organs are affected.”

The problem is, mechanical ventilation in intensive care replaces the strength of the respiratory muscles. If patients are struggling to breathe but their lung structure is OK, this ventilation does little to help and in fact may prove harmful, Gattinoni said, because mechanical ventilation is invasive.

He said while only a small number of patients are severe enough to require ventilation, a significant proportion of those on ventilators die, continuing to show low blood oxygen levels despite mechanical assistance.

Nurses tend to a patient on a ventilator at a New York hospital. Photograph: Robert Nickelsberg/Getty Images
Gattinoni said doctors must use ventilators only when needed, and at the right time. Getting this right can improve survival rates, he believes, and he thinks wrongly timed ventilation is why some intensive care units treating Covid-19 patients have higher death rates than others.

“Timing with this disease is absolutely critical,” he said. “Ventilation cannot begin too early or too late.” In the meantime, patients are given anticoagulants, drugs that prevent or slow blood clotting in the hope that stroke can be prevented.

Darley said scans of the lungs of Covid-19 patients are unique, showing “ground glass opacity”, a hazy pattern that does not obscure the underlying lung structure. Lung cancer, for example, would typically show on a scan as a dark, solid lesion, obscuring other structures in the lungs. While other illnesses, for example bacterial infections, can result in ground glass opacity on a scan, there were some unusual features on scans for Covid-19, Darley said.

“It has a classic pattern in Covid,” he said.

He suspects men are more severely affected than women because the virus is activated by an enzyme controlled by androgens, a group of hormones that play a role in male characteristics. But more research is needed to test this hypothesis. Darley added that any research into the virus needed to be conducted ethically and with strong scientific protocols.

“With no treatments for this virus, all we can do for severe patients at the moment is provide supportive care,” he said. “If the level of fluid is low, we can replace it. If they need ventilation, we can help them breathe. But treatments for this disease can only come from clinical trials.

“Our commitment at our hospital is to work with the highest level of scientific inquiry. People are desperate for treatments but we are reluctant to try treatments outside of clinical trials here.

“If we don’t clearly show a treatment is better than placebo or other treatments, we could be creating noise and adding to the current chaos of the scientific community. Our responsibility is to find treatments that work.”

Gattinoni agrees. He said scientists had been trying for decades to find drugs that moderate the inflammatory reaction, and he said these drugs had been “romanticised and popularised” in the race to find treatments for Covid-19.

“But in thousands of experiments over the years trying to block inflammatory responses, we’ve only had a lot of poor results,” Gattinoni said. “Like many other things in medicine, we have to be patient.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... -mechanism
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby Grizzly » Sun May 03, 2020 10:31 am

Thanks Lynn, been a fan ever since you introduced him. Gain of function is definitely the key...
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby Belligerent Savant » Sun May 03, 2020 2:23 pm

.


I read in social media how people are so inspired about ‘frontline medical workers’ (you see there is always a new vocabulary, much like with climate and carrying capacity and wet bulbs and 6th mass extinction etc) and yet, in fact, huge numbers of hospitals are closing (likely to never reopen) and those doctors and nurses and now among the growing mass of unemployed in the US.

It seems the American bourgeoisie want to believe this is a dire threat. They want to self isolate. Perhaps this massive quarantine is a time of leisure that they don’t often get. I have no idea, honestly. But I do know for certain the quarantines will kill far more than the virus, in the long term, and that the new mass upticks in surveillance and invasions of privacy won’t ever be rolled back. But the bigger question is in terms of global travel and the Gates agenda (see Fourth Industrial Revolution, smart cities, etc).

What Gates wants is everyone to carry a certificate (or microchip) that indicates if they have had this or that vaccination. This is exactly what your dog has to have when you fly them out of the country.
...

The white liberal educated class so hate Trump that all rational perspective is lost. Anything that throws shade on Trump is a good thing. And this hatred is being enjoyed far too much; it is as if Trump came along and answered their unconscious prayers for active exercise of a deep soul-crushing hate. It bonds people, a negative bonding to be sure, but that is better than nothing.

The pimps for lockdown seem impervious to the loss of millions of jobs (just today in Norway SAS airlines cut 5000 jobs, and nobody expects them back. Or in Hollywood, as shooting resumes, crews are decimated. Thousands of jobs that likely won’t return). The importance of specific facts in Planet of the Humans are undeniable. I sincerely hope people will watch it, but watch it with an educated critical eye. For Gibbs is in bed with this man.
...

Cory Morningstar wrote just the other day:

A new report from the Institute for Policy Studies found that, while tens of millions of Americans have lost their jobs during the #coronavirus pandemic, America’s ultra-wealthy elite have seen their net worth surge by $282 billion in just 23 days.


There seems an almost class divide actually, for both climate discourse and corona discourse. The working-class fear loss of food and shelter far more than an only moderately lethal virus. They fear the excesses of federal bureaucracies, and the boot-heel of domestic US city police departments, not to mention custodial supervision. The white educated bourgeoisie fear but are also exhilarated by this contagion. As the lockdown began the top viewing film on Netflix that week was Contagion (Soderbergh, 2011).

This is exciting they think, and it allows yet another new vocabulary. So in social media where once one was confronted with endless white guys who were getting to play being scientists and climatologists, now one is running into a constant stream of Epidemiologists, infectious disease specialists and biologists.

...
The for Evidence-Based Medicine (Oxford University) has the infection fatality rate at between 0.1% and 0.36%. That is pretty much what seasonal flu comes in at. Something many of us said a month ago. The comparisons between the climate discourse and the Covid discourse are striking. One might even think there was an agenda here.



https://off-guardian.org/2020/05/03/rev ... he-humans/
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby norton ash » Sun May 03, 2020 2:31 pm

and yet, in fact, huge numbers of hospitals are closing (likely to never reopen) and those doctors and nurses and now among the growing mass of unemployed in the US.


Sucks to be the USA among the developed nations. And I'm not enjoying isolation but I'm not inspired to go outside by this sketchy science and Gates-NWO muttering.
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby kelley » Sun May 03, 2020 3:20 pm

per Elvis and etc

I inquired upthread if anyone had fallen ill earlier this year

Personally I'm about 99% certain I had this virus in January as all symptoms were present and my doctor was frankly puzzled

Was sick all through February and had a lingering cough which has finally disappeared two weeks ago

Emergent care in my hood now offers an antibody test and while I'll eventually get one-- as it will no doubt be mandatory-- am in no rush until whatever protocols are actually in place

Because why do things twice

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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby Iamwhomiam » Sun May 03, 2020 4:17 pm

I mentioned earlier in the thread my granddaughter was ill in February and hospitalized for 2 days. I related my frustration with my daughter, her mother and a nurse, for not having her tested for the SARSCOVID-19 and then my own foolishness for not realizing no test was available - anywhere, then. After they began testing for the antibody or whatever, she went to be tested and found she did have SARSCOVID-19 in February.

I went to the store the other day for the first time since 3/18 minutes before closing. Being so late, I grabbed my cloth bag but forgot my mask, a bandana given to me by an Indian Chief at Burning Man in 2006 with an appropriate slogan:
Hope & Fear
The Future

Horrified and gloveless, I grabbed a cart, and then I first noticed the cart collector's mask. Oh, well - I grabbed a piece of paper towel I had in my pocket, covered my mouth and nose and tore through the store.

I didn't know I was prohibited from carrying into the store a cloth bag and realized too late there were traffic direction signs on the floor. 3 minutes, total, and I got all I needed except for cereal.

I sure hope I didn't bring anything home with me I really didn't want to get. I certainly posed no risk to any other, though they might not have thought so.
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby Elvis » Sun May 03, 2020 9:25 pm

kelley wrote:per Elvis and etc

I inquired upthread if anyone had fallen ill earlier this year

Personally I'm about 99% certain I had this virus in January as all symptoms were present and my doctor was frankly puzzled


Yes I recalled your post as I thought back and realized I very likely picked up the virus in February from a world-traveling friend. Now the question: am I a "carrier"? am I immune?
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby liminalOyster » Sun May 03, 2020 9:43 pm

Grizzly » Sun May 03, 2020 10:31 am wrote:Thanks Lynn, been a fan ever since you introduced him. Gain of function is definitely the key...


I'm really digging parts of this guy's vid but I can't help feeling there's some sort of Aristotelian unwillingness to acknowledge the historic and potential novelty of pathogens. I was surprised and pleased that the NYT ran a piece on Laurie Garrett yesterday. I've followed her (not carefully, but kept aware of) her work for years and while I am all for the basic autonomist vibe and righteous disdain for neoliberalism here, I'm not yet so convinced that COVID isn't a new story with a new ending. Either way, thanks for the tip - he's smart/interesting and looks like he has some really intriguing content.

edit: Sidenote that as a kind of personal mindfulness practice, I've been trying to not "politicize" my own learning about COVID and discovering that .... it's hard as shit. My confirmation bias has many little hideouts in the crannies of my brain that I was heretofore completely unaware of.
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby JackRiddler » Sun May 03, 2020 9:58 pm

norton ash » Sun May 03, 2020 1:31 pm wrote:
and yet, in fact, huge numbers of hospitals are closing (likely to never reopen) and those doctors and nurses and now among the growing mass of unemployed in the US.


Sucks to be the USA among the developed nations. And I'm not enjoying isolation but I'm not inspired to go outside by this sketchy science and Gates-NWO muttering.


On the contrary, I'm encouraged to go outside by reading the reports from the medical and political authorities themselves. In spite of their top-line recommendations, the details tell a different story.
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby norton ash » Mon May 04, 2020 1:06 pm

Sorry, I'm truly ALWAYS inspired to go outside, but I get the creeps when it comes to grocery stores, buses, lineups, etc. I know one person who got very sick and is still fever-fainting-breathless sick about 12 days after the hospital sent him home.
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby Iamwhomiam » Mon May 04, 2020 3:15 pm

Once again, the closings are part of consolidation. They're purchased by a corporation to eliminate competition and then they're shuttered to focus need to their desired house of healing profit.
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby liminalOyster » Mon May 04, 2020 4:43 pm

So for the first time since late February, I entered a chain-grocery store today (out of coffee emergency).Mostly been picking stuff up or having delivered from a neighborhood market.

It is an absolute cluster-fuck out there. That is all.
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby thrulookingglass » Mon May 04, 2020 9:36 pm



Hope this isn't a repeated posting.
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby §ê¢rꆧ » Tue May 05, 2020 5:39 am

^^ Oh my goodness, thank you for that video!

The censorship on Youtube and Twitter and Facebook (and elsewhere surely) is reprehensible, annoying, and worrying. . Because it is only magnifying the polarity already out of control in the U.S.
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