Anti-Imperialism & Anti-Humanist Rhetoric of Gilad Atzmon

[Searcher08]

As to why Gilad Atzmon, Israel Shamir, David Icke, Michael Hoffman, Paul Eisen and others do what they do- I smell a rat, though I do imagine that there are some ideologically committed racists in the mix and some working for pay from shadowy sources- and it need not be either/or.

That's it- end of story...

I agree. I mean, one could also add a coda to the effect of "You're never going to get any insight into the Jewish heart, mind, character, or culture from a man who bases his definition of Judaism on New Covenant theology," just to confirm that absolutely nobody who's capable of listening to reason in any form is out there.

But that's not really necessary, even I admit. It's just optimistic.

Cheers, AD. Thanks once again for the thread.

Hmm.. not even the anteaters brought a smile here...

I wanted to let you know I wrote a reply to your discussion points you asked me about a couple of pages ago; but I'm reading that you are done with the thread? FWIW I was at the point of leaving RI last night. I felt viciously and very personally attacked. Cuda's retraction stopped that.
This morning after reading it, I cooled down.
Also FWIW today when I read your response to Alice's comment about "Orwellian", I actually read that as a humour attempt, poking fun with you, at me for my err.. slightly hyperbolic comment to you a lot earlier. Which looking back on it was a bit 'Dramatic Chipmunk'~~~

I hope after a day or two you can come back - either way 'Thank You' for engaging with me as you have on this thread

[AlicetheKurious]

Stop wasting my time,, you silly bitch.

It would be one thing if you cared about Palestinians. But you don't. If -- by some miraculous chance -- they reached some kind of accommodation with Israel, you'd throw them over for Hezbollah in a New-York-Jew-Minute. They're just props in your psychodrama.

I'll pray for you.

Same story, either way, though. It's predictable. They'll keep demolishing anyone "other" who doesn't toe the line, until they run out of them. Then they'll go in-group.

Horrible.

Psychological projection or projection bias is a psychological defense mechanism where a person subconsciously denies his or her own attributes, thoughts, and emotions, which are then ascribed to the outside world, usually to other people. Thus, projection involves imagining or projecting the belief that others originate those feelings.
...

Projection can also be established as a means of obtaining or justifying certain actions that would normally be found atrocious or heinous. This often means projecting false accusations, information, etc., onto an individual for the sole purpose of maintaining a self-created illusion. Link

You like, eh, barracuda? No doubt you would be ecstatic if I were to descend to this level of discourse. Sorry, it's not going to happen -- resorting to such tactics is a tacit admission of failure, of moral and intellectual bankruptcy. They discredit only the one who uses them, and the ones who approve of them.

[Laodicean]

[barracuda]

You like, eh, barracuda? No doubt you would be ecstatic if I were to descend to this level of discourse. Sorry, it's not going to happen -- resorting to such tactics is a tacit admission of failure, of moral and intellectual bankruptcy. They discredit only the one who uses them, and the ones who approve of them.

Descend? Let's not pretend you've comported yourself with such ponderous dignity here on the thread that your very solemnity has brought a weightlessness to your presence, floating you into the rarified ether above the proceedings like a balloon. You're right down here with the rest of us, I'm afraid, armchair psychoanalyses notwithstanding. Did you really have to offer yet another small moment of didactic definition for the edification of your readers, or was it for fear I wouldn't know what "projection" was? With a link and everything - how very helpful.

Look, I think compared2what?'s statement is a valid aspect of the discussion for examination. It has occurred to me many times that perhaps you hate the Israelis more than you love the Palestinians. It wouldn't be a crime, you know, if it were so. It wouldn't even be anti-semitic, really, I don't think. For someone as chauvinistic as you seem to be, it could simply be the sense of a wounded national pride.

[Cordelia]

This thread has shockingly exposed Barracuda, C2W & AD for what they really are.

Thank you Alice for providing patience, commitment, and grace in exposing bullying (and worse) on the global stage along with here in the microcosmic R.I. (and for generously giving some of the RI bullies the rope they’ve long needed).

[barracuda]

If you mean I've been exposed as someone who's tired of the ever-present strains of racism on this forum, you'd be right.

[seemslikeadream]

new rule...after 1070 replies or 72 pages, which ever comes first, topic qualifies for it's own sub-forum

[barracuda]

You know, slad, I've spoken with Jeff more than once, back in my moderator days, about instituting an "Israel" subforum. I believe the last time was during one of those periods when the state of Israel had once again acted in an unconscionable and heinous manner and there were thirteen threads about Israel on the front page of the forum. (In the aftermath of the flotilla travesty there were seventeen on the front page of GD at one point.) Neither he nor the other mods seemed interested in the idea, though. And I'm not altogether certain this thread would be easily categorized under that umbrella anyway. Maybe we need a subforum called "The Jewish Problem", or "Jewishness", or just "Those Darn Jews" as an adjunct. But I generally agree with Alice that this thread needn't be buried in the subforum ghettos.

Wait a minute - did I just agree with Alice?? Hmm.

[brainpanhandler]

This thread has shockingly exposed Barracuda, C2W & AD for what they really are.

...

(and for generously giving some of the RI bullies the rope they’ve long needed).

Pfffttt. That's what you really think? Wow.

I almost want to start a poll.

Thank you Alice

Actually, I'll heartily second this. Thank you Alice.

[AlicetheKurious]

new rule...after 1070 replies or 72 pages, which ever comes first, topic qualifies for it's own sub-forum

Too bad we haven't yet gotten around to discussing Gilad Atzmon's actual analysis, and how accurately it exposes the mind-set, the strategies and the tactics that are used by certain individuals who pretend to support Palestinian rights, but who in effect try to control the discourse and sabotage any real exposure of the forces aligned against the realization of Palestinian rights.

But I guess seeing is believing.

[barracuda]

...certain individuals...

Hey, I learned a new euphemism today!

[Searcher08]

new rule...after 1070 replies or 72 pages, which ever comes first, topic qualifies for it's own sub-forum

I think it needs it's own meta-analysis in another thread

Slad, as a person of Irish descent, I was wondering if you read any of the posts where I was trying to map some of the questioning that Atzmon was saying in terms of Jewish Identity into a different domain (Irish identity).
Because I think it is interesting to explore parallel 'lines of enquiry, to gain another perspective on it. I posed some questions around The Famine earlier in the thread and would love to know what you think...

I am currently watching the Finklestein documentary, which is excellent. What has most surprised me so far is hearing the anti-Finkelstein arguments - which are spookily familar because they are the same one's that have been made on this thread, right down to the ad hominems, accusations of racism etc

The accusations that Finklestein is a 'self- hater' playing into the hands of the far right by repeating their talking points. The crowds appearing demanding that he not be given a platform because he is a racist anti-Semite whose vile vomiting besmirches the memory of The Holocaust. Even that he cant possibly believe his points and has major identity issues.
Finklestein's response to it is actually (so far) quite calm and focused.
Well worth watching. He comes across as much more funny, nuanced, sensitive to suffering and deeply principled than his abrasive media image.

[AlicetheKurious]

What has most surprised me so far is hearing the anti-Finkelstein arguments - which are spookily familar because they are the same one's that have been made on this thread, right down to the ad hominems, accusations of racism etc

You're only surprised because you're new to this. These people's* repertoire is very, very limited. In fact, the only innovation I've seen in the past few decades, is the introduction of "AZZs", who use the exact same methods as "Zs", but from inside the movement.

*"These people" aka "certain individuals" being defined as "people who try to control the discourse and sabotage any attempt to expose the forces aligned against the realization of Palestinian rights by using ad hominems, false accusations of racism, etc."

[barracuda]

I am currently watching the Finklestein documentary, which is excellent.

I watched the first hour of it, and I'm not sure if I find anything he said which I really disagree with.

[Simulist]

What has most surprised me so far is hearing the anti-Finkelstein arguments - which are spookily familar because they are the same one's that have been made on this thread, right down to the ad hominems, accusations of racism etc

You're only surprised because you're new to this. These people's* repertoire is very, very limited. In fact, the only innovation I've seen in the past few decades, is the introduction of "AZZs", who use the exact same methods as "Zs", but from inside the movement.

*"These people" aka "certain individuals" being defined as "people who try to control the discourse and sabotage any attempt to expose the forces aligned against the realization of Palestinian rights by using ad hominems, false accusations of racism, etc."

Although I'm not yet well-read-enough on Finkelstein to say that I actually "support" him (but given what I have read so far, I probably would), I've seen enough of Atzmon to say that I do not support him, for reasons articulated rather brilliantly by his main critics in this thread.