#OCCUPYWALLSTREET campaign - September 17

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Re: #OCCUPYWALLSTREET campaign - September 17

Postby seemslikeadream » Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:57 am

What’s a Seasoned CIA Agent Doing at the NYPD?

Here’s a spooky story: The Central Intelligence Agency has once again called unwanted attention to its clandestine collaboration with the New York Police Department, a relationship that was fortified after 9/11 and led to special NYPD surveillance of the city’s Muslim communities, as it has come to the notice of select lawmakers and media outlets that an experienced CIA operative has spent the last three months at the NYPD serving as special assistant to the deputy commissioner of intelligence. Right. Now what does that mean? —KA
CIA Role Within NYPD Raises Eyebrows
Probe revealed a secret squad known as the Demographics Unit sent teams of undercover cops to help keep tabs on area's Muslim communities
By Adam Goldman and Matt Apuzzo
| Monday, Oct 17, 2011 | Updated 7:24 AM
CIA Role Within NYPD Raises Eyebrows

Three months ago, one of the CIA's most experienced clandestine operatives started work inside the New York Police Department. His title is special assistant to the deputy commissioner of intelligence. On that much, everyone agrees.

Exactly what he's doing there, however, is much less clear.

Since The Associated Press revealed the assignment in August, federal and city officials have offered differing explanations for why this CIA officer — a seasoned operative who handled foreign agents and ran complex operations in Jordan and Pakistan — was assigned to a municipal police department.

The CIA is prohibited from spying domestically, and its unusual partnership with the NYPD has troubled top lawmakers and prompted an internal investigation.

His role is important because the last time a CIA officer worked so closely with the NYPD, beginning in the months after the 9/11 attacks, he became the architect of aggressive police programs that monitored Muslim neighborhoods.

With the earlier help from this CIA official, the police put entire communities under the microscope, according to internal police documents, based on ethnicity rather allegations of wrongdoing.

It was an extraordinary collaboration that at times troubled some senior CIA officials and may have stretched the bounds of how the CIA is legally allowed to operate in the United States.

The arrangement surrounding the newly arrived CIA officer has been portrayed differently than that of his predecessor. When first asked by the AP, a senior U.S. official described the posting as a sabbatical, a program aimed at giving the man in New York more management training.

Testifying at City Hall recently, New York Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly said the CIA operative provides his officers "with information, usually coming from perhaps overseas." He said the CIA operative provides "technical information" to the NYPD but "doesn't have access to any of our investigative files."

CIA Director David Petraeus has described him as an adviser, someone who could ensure that information was being shared.

But the CIA already has someone with that job. At its large station in New York, a CIA liaison shares intelligence with the Joint Terrorism Task Force in New York, which has hundreds of NYPD detectives assigned to it. And the CIA did not explain how, if the officer doesn't have access to NYPD files, he is getting management experience in a division built entirely around collecting domestic intelligence.

James Clapper, the director of national intelligence, mischaracterized him to Congress as an "embedded analyst" — his office later quietly said that was a mistake — and acknowledged it looked bad to have the CIA working so closely with a police department.

All of this has troubled lawmakers, including Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., the chairwoman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, who has said the CIA has "no business or authority in domestic spying, or in advising the NYPD how to conduct local surveillance."

"It's really important to fully understand what the nature of the investigations into the Muslim community are all about, and also the partnership between the local police and the CIA," said Rep. Jan Schakowsky, D-Ill., a member of the House Intelligence Committee.

Still, the undercover operative remains in New York while the agency's inspector general investigates the CIA's decade-long relationship with the NYPD. The CIA has asked the AP not to identify him because he remains a member of the clandestine service and his identity is classified.

The CIA's deep ties to the NYPD began after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, when CIA Director George Tenet dispatched a veteran officer, Larry Sanchez, to New York, where he became the architect of the police department's secret spying programs.

While still on the agency payroll, Sanchez, a CIA veteran who spent 15 years overseas in the former Soviet Union, South Asia, and the Middle East, instructed officers on the art of collecting information without attracting attention. He directed officers and reviewed case files.

Sometimes, officials said, intelligence collected from NYPD's operations was passed informally to the CIA.

Sanchez also hand-picked an NYPD detective to attend the "Farm," the CIA's training facility where its officers are turned into operatives. The detective, who completed the course but failed to graduate, returned to the police department where he works today armed with the agency's famed espionage skills.

Also while under Sanchez's direction, documents show that the NYPD's Cyber Intelligence Unit, which monitors domestic and foreign websites, also conducted training sessions for the CIA.

Sanchez was on the CIA payroll from 2002 to 2004 then took a temporary leave of absence from the CIA to become deputy to David Cohen, a former senior CIA officer who became head of the NYPD intelligence division just months after the 9/11 attacks.

In 2007, the CIA's top official in New York complained to headquarters that Sanchez was wearing two hats, sometimes operating as an NYPD official, sometimes as a CIA officer. At headquarters, senior officials agreed and told Sanchez he had to choose.

He formally left the CIA, staying on at the NYPD until late 2010. He now works as a security consultant in the Persian Gulf region.

Sanchez's departure left Cohen scrambling to find someone with operational experience who could replace him. He approached several former CIA colleagues about taking the job but they turned him down, according to people familiar with the situation who, like others interviewed for this story, spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss the department's inner workings.

When they refused, Cohen persuaded the CIA to send the current operative to be his assistant.

He arrived with an impressive post-9/11 resume. He had been the station chief in Pakistan and then Jordan, two stations that served as focal points in the war on terror, according to current and former officials who worked with him. He also was in charge of the agency's Counter Proliferation Division.

But he is no stranger to controversy. Former U.S. intelligence officials said he was nearly expelled from Pakistan after an incident during President George W. Bush's first term. Pakistan became enraged after sharing intelligence with the U.S., only to learn that the CIA station chief passed that information to the British.

Then, while serving in Amman, the station chief was directly involved in an operation to kill al-Qaida's then-No. 2, Ayman al-Zawahri. But the plan backfired badly. The key informant who promised to lead the CIA to al-Zawahiri was in fact a double agent working for al-Qaida.

At least one CIA officer saw problems in the case and warned the station chief but, as recounted in a new book "The Triple Agent" by Washington Post reporter Joby Warrick, the station chief decided to push ahead anyway.

The informant blew himself up at remote CIA base in Khost, Afghanistan, in December 2009. He managed to kill seven CIA employees, including the officer who had warned the station chief, and wound six others. Leon Panetta, the CIA director at the time, called it a systemic failure and decided no one person was at fault.
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Re: Re:

Postby Canadian_watcher » Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:01 pm

Bruce Dazzling wrote:
Canadian_watcher wrote:
so you're saying that most people can scream at the police like that ?


No, I'm not making generalizations, or talking about most people, I'm talking about THIS GUY.

Canadian_watcher wrote:If so then why are you so impressed by this character?


I'm impressed by this character because he said what needed to be said, in a very powerful way that is resonating with lots and lots of people. That's impressive under any circumstances.

Canadian_watcher wrote:Besides, I wasn't trying to call you out I was just stating the fact that this Sgt is one intimidating presence.


Maybe his gigantic physical presence had something to do with it.

Maybe it didn't.

Again, I've called the police on their shit, and I've seen several others of normal stature do so as well without heads getting kicked in. The cops seem to understand that they really need to stick to the rules when several cameras are obviously rolling, and they're not emboldened by the security of being obscured by a large crowd.

Either way, though, I really don't see the value in that type of tedious argument when we all probably agree that what the Sgt. did is to be universally celebrated.


of course it is to be celebrated.. but just try screaming madly at a bunch of cops as a small woman and see how far you get. Even on camera. Need I dig up the G20 Toronto videos?

that's all I'm saying and all I ever said. had you simply let it go there wouldn't be any tediouness, nor any argument.

don't' worry.. i'll let you all go back to your party now. this place is a fucking joke.
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift
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Re: #OCCUPYWALLSTREET campaign - September 17

Postby beeline » Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:05 pm

^^^^

I'm just glad you're not bitter or anything
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Re: Re:

Postby Bruce Dazzling » Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:14 pm

Canadian_watcher wrote:
Bruce Dazzling wrote:
Canadian_watcher wrote:
so you're saying that most people can scream at the police like that ?


No, I'm not making generalizations, or talking about most people, I'm talking about THIS GUY.

Canadian_watcher wrote:If so then why are you so impressed by this character?


I'm impressed by this character because he said what needed to be said, in a very powerful way that is resonating with lots and lots of people. That's impressive under any circumstances.

Canadian_watcher wrote:Besides, I wasn't trying to call you out I was just stating the fact that this Sgt is one intimidating presence.


Maybe his gigantic physical presence had something to do with it.

Maybe it didn't.

Again, I've called the police on their shit, and I've seen several others of normal stature do so as well without heads getting kicked in. The cops seem to understand that they really need to stick to the rules when several cameras are obviously rolling, and they're not emboldened by the security of being obscured by a large crowd.

Either way, though, I really don't see the value in that type of tedious argument when we all probably agree that what the Sgt. did is to be universally celebrated.


of course it is to be celebrated.. but just try screaming madly at a bunch of cops as a small woman and see how far you get. Even on camera. Need I dig up the G20 Toronto videos?

that's all I'm saying and all I ever said. had you simply let it go there wouldn't be any tediouness, nor any argument.

don't' worry.. i'll let you all go back to your party now. this place is a fucking joke.


CW,

You've made that point multiple times now.

Nobody is preventing you from making that point.

You feel that you, as a small woman, couldn't have done what the large Sgt. did.

I get it.

I believe that we all get it.

I find it to be a tedious hypothetical, and I'd much rather focus on the powerful message that the large Sgt. conveyed, and the shame in the eyes of the NYPD.

I'm really not sure what you want or expect beyond that.

Let's move on and continue to inform one another about this awesomely glorious movement that most of us have been waiting quite a long time for.
"Arrogance is experiential and environmental in cause. Human experience can make and unmake arrogance. Ours is about to get unmade."

~ Joe Bageant R.I.P.

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Re: #OCCUPYWALLSTREET campaign - September 17

Postby Canadian_watcher » Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:34 pm

beeline wrote:^^^^

I'm just glad you're not bitter or anything


I'm glad you've decided to mind your own business.

Bruce D wrote:CW,
You've made that point multiple times now.
Nobody is preventing you from making that point.
You feel that you, as a small woman, couldn't have done what the large Sgt. did.
I get it.
I believe that we all get it.
I find it to be a tedious hypothetical, and I'd much rather focus on the powerful message that the large Sgt. conveyed, and the shame in the eyes of the NYPD.
I'm really not sure what you want or expect beyond that.
Let's move on and continue to inform one another about this awesomely glorious movement that most of us have been waiting quite a long time for.


sure, bro. it's a man's world, so I'll do what the man says. no room here for interjecting the concerns specific to women, which, as I can tell, will be brushed off as insignificant and tedious. it'd be nice to be amongst people who stop for a second and think to themselves: you know, that's true. it must be more frustrating to be female, since there's probably a lot of truth to the fact that females are at a disadvantage when standing up for their rights against abusive authority figures.

but meh, I see that this isn't that place. we're gender blind here and we think that's a good thing.
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift
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Re: #OCCUPYWALLSTREET campaign - September 17

Postby JackRiddler » Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:34 pm



http://www.counterpunch.org/2011/10/18/ ... nter/print

October 18, 2011

Meet the “Lower Manhattan Security Initiative”
Wall Street Firms Spy on Protestors In Tax-Funded Center


by PAM MARTENS

A CounterPunch Exclusive


Wall Street’s audacity to corrupt knows no bounds and the cooptation of government by the 1 per cent knows no limits. How else to explain $150 million of taxpayer money going to equip a government facility in lower Manhattan where Wall Street firms, serially charged with corruption, get to sit alongside the New York Police Department and spy on law abiding citizens.

According to newly unearthed documents, the planning for this high tech facility on lower Broadway dates back six years. In correspondence from 2005 that rests quietly in the Securities and Exchange Commission’s archives, NYPD Commissioner Raymond Kelly promised Edward Forst, a Goldman Sachs’ Executive Vice President at the time, that the NYPD “is committed to the development and implementation of a comprehensive security plan for Lower Manhattan…One component of the plan will be a centralized coordination center that will provide space for full-time, on site representation from Goldman Sachs and other stakeholders.”

At the time, Goldman Sachs was in the process of extracting concessions from New York City just short of the Mayor’s first born in exchange for constructing its new headquarters building at 200 West Street, adjacent to the World Financial Center and in the general area of where the new World Trade Center complex would be built. According to the 2005 documents, Goldman’s deal included $1.65 billion in Liberty Bonds, up to $160 million in sales tax abatements for construction materials and tenant furnishings, and the deal-breaker requirement that a security plan that gave it a seat at the NYPD’s Coordination Center would be in place by no later than December 31, 2009.

The surveillance plan became known as the Lower Manhattan Security Initiative and the facility was eventually dubbed the Lower Manhattan Security Coordination Center. It operates round-the-clock. Under the imprimatur of the largest police department in the United States, 2,000 private spy cameras owned by Wall Street firms, together with approximately 1,000 more owned by the NYPD, are relaying live video feeds of people on the streets in lower Manhattan to the center. Once at the center, they can be integrated for analysis. At least 700 cameras scour the midtown area and also relay their live feeds into the downtown center where low-wage NYPD, MTA and Port Authority crime stoppers sit alongside high-wage personnel from Wall Street firms that are currently under at least 51 Federal and state corruption probes for mortgage securitization fraud and other matters.

In addition to video analytics which can, for example, track a person based on the color of their hat or jacket, insiders say the NYPD either has or is working on face recognition software which could track individuals based on facial features. The center is also equipped with live feeds from license plate readers.

According to one person who has toured the center, there are three rows of computer workstations, with approximately two-thirds operated by non-NYPD personnel. The Chief-Leader, the weekly civil service newspaper, identified some of the outside entities that share the space: Goldman Sachs, Citigroup, the Federal Reserve, the New York Stock Exchange. Others say most of the major Wall Street firms have an on-site representative. Two calls and an email to Paul Browne, NYPD Deputy Commissioner of Public Information, seeking the names of the other Wall Street firms at the center were not returned. An email seeking the same information to City Council Member, Peter Vallone, who chairs the Public Safety Committee, was not returned.


Vallone. On behalf of the Western Queens district that has elected him and before him his father to play Blowhard Lawmaker Supercop for generations, my apologies.


In a press release dated October 4, 2009 announcing the expansion of the surveillance territory, Mayor Michael Bloomberg and Police Commissioner Kelly had this to say:

“The Midtown Manhattan Security Initiative will add additional cameras and license plate readers installed at key locations between 30th and 60th Streets from river to river. It will also identify additional private organizations who will work alongside NYPD personnel in the Lower Manhattan Security Coordination Center, where corporate and other security representatives from Lower Manhattan have been co-located with police since June 2009. The Lower Manhattan Security Coordination Center is the central hub for both initiatives, where all the collected data are analyzed.” [Italic emphasis added.]

The project has been funded by New York City taxpayers as well as all U.S. taxpayers through grants from the Federal Department of Homeland Security. On March 26, 2009, the New York Civil Liberties Union (NYCLU) wrote a letter to Commissioner Kelly, noting that even though the system involves “massive expenditures of public money, there have been no public hearings about any aspect of the system…we reject the Department’s assertion of ‘plenary power’ over all matters touching on public safety…the Department is of course subject to the laws and Constitution of the United States and of the State of New York as well as to regulation by the New York City Council.”

The NYCLU also noted in its letter that it rejected the privacy guidelines for the surveillance operation that the NYPD had posted on its web site for public comment, since there had been no public hearings to formulate these guidelines. It noted further that “the guidelines do not limit police surveillance and databases to suspicious activity…there is no independent oversight or monitoring of compliance with the guidelines.”

According to Commissioner Kelly in public remarks, the privacy guidelines were written by Jessica Tisch, the Director of Counterterrorism Policy and Planning for the NYPD who has played a significant role in developing the Lower Manhattan Security Coordination Center. In 2006, Tisch was 25 years old and still working on her law degree and MBA at Harvard, according to a wedding announcement in the New York Times. Tisch is a friend to the Mayor’s daughter, Emma; her mother, Meryl, is a family friend to the Mayor.

Tisch is the granddaughter and one of the heirs to the now-deceased billionaire Laurence Tisch who built the Loews Corporation. Her father, James Tisch, is now the CEO of the Loews Corporation and was elected by Wall Street banks to sit on the Federal Reserve Bank of New York until 2013 representing the public’s interest. (Clearly, the 1 per cent think they know what’s best for the 99 per cent.)

The Federal Reserve Bank of New York is the entity which doled out the bulk of the $16 trillion in bailout loans to the U.S. and foreign financial community. Members of Tisch’s family work for Wall Street firms or hedge funds which have prime broker relationships with them. A division of Loews Corporation has a banking relationship with Citigroup.

The Tisch family stands to directly benefit from the surveillance program. In June of this year, Continental Casualty Company, the primary unit of the giant CNA Financial which is owned by Loew’s Corp., signed a 19-year lease for 81,296 square feet at 125 Broad Street – an area under surveillance by the downtown surveillance center.

Loews Corporation also owns the Loew’s Regency Hotel on Park Avenue in midtown, an area which is also now under round-the-clock surveillance on the taxpayer’s dime.

Wall Street is infamous for perverting everything it touches: from the Nasdaq stock market, to stock research issued to the public, to auction rate securities, mortgages sold to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, credit default swaps with AIG, and mortgage securitizations. Had a public hearing been held on this massive surveillance sweep of Manhattan by potential felons, hopefully someone might have pondered what was to prevent Wall Street from tracking its employee whistleblowers heading off to the FBI offices or meeting with a reporter.

One puzzle has at least been solved. Wall Street’s criminals have not been indicted or sent to jail because they have effectively become the police.


Pam Martens worked on Wall Street for 21 years. She spent the last decade of her career advocating against Wall Street’s private justice system, which keeps its crimes shielded from public courtrooms. She has been writing on public interest issues for CounterPunch since retiring in 2006. She has no security position, long or short, in any company mentioned in this article. She can be reached at pamk741@aol.com

See Related Article:

Financial Giants Put New York City Cops On Their Payroll
http://www.counterpunch.org/2011/10/10/ ... r-payroll/

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Re: #OCCUPYWALLSTREET campaign - September 17

Postby Bruce Dazzling » Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:55 pm

Canadian_watcher wrote:
beeline wrote:^^^^

I'm just glad you're not bitter or anything


I'm glad you've decided to mind your own business.

Bruce D wrote:CW,
You've made that point multiple times now.
Nobody is preventing you from making that point.
You feel that you, as a small woman, couldn't have done what the large Sgt. did.
I get it.
I believe that we all get it.
I find it to be a tedious hypothetical, and I'd much rather focus on the powerful message that the large Sgt. conveyed, and the shame in the eyes of the NYPD.
I'm really not sure what you want or expect beyond that.
Let's move on and continue to inform one another about this awesomely glorious movement that most of us have been waiting quite a long time for.


sure, bro. it's a man's world, so I'll do what the man says. no room here for interjecting the concerns specific to women, which, as I can tell, will be brushed off as insignificant and tedious. it'd be nice to be amongst people who stop for a second and think to themselves: you know, that's true. it must be more frustrating to be female, since there's probably a lot of truth to the fact that females are at a disadvantage when standing up for their rights against abusive authority figures.

but meh, I see that this isn't that place. we're gender blind here and we think that's a good thing.


Oh, for the love of...

You just made your point again.

Nobody is stopping you from making your point.

I'm pretty sure that you've made your point four times now.

If you don't have anything to contribute beyond repeating this single point and heaving insults at the board, I'm going to ask that you stop posting on this thread, as it's become a disruption.
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Re: #OCCUPYWALLSTREET campaign - September 17

Postby brainpanhandler » Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:57 pm

bruce wrote:Let's move on and continue to inform one another about this awesomely glorious movement that most of us have been waiting quite a long time for.


Yes. Let's do that.

Image

Very modest but determined contigent of stalwarts in Madison trying to keep warm as winter fast apporaches.

The Madison PD have said the small encampment is breaking no laws so long as the tents are not four sided.

Interesting that the Madison protests so far have been very low key, especially in comparison to the protests this past spring.

I think this is partially because so many people are focused on recalling Walker. But I think it is also worth considering that there is a bit of cynicism that has crept in when the supreme court race and the house and senate recall elections did not turn out as well as might be hoped, especially in light of probable election rigging and fraud.

In a way I wonder if there is not an important lesson to be learned in the way that Madison is responding to OWS within the context of a very recent and ongoing battle against the oligarchs and their puppets in government. Like what happens to a modern American populist movement when there is not progress of the kind that results in tangible, measurable change for the better in a fairly short time frame. We're all still passionate and dedicated and highly motivated to remove a reviled governor, but the vibe is different and the diversity of the visible movement has declined.

I'll try to offer some more coherent analysis if it comes to me.
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Re: #OCCUPYWALLSTREET campaign - September 17

Postby Free » Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:10 pm

Bruce D wrote:

CW,
You've made that point multiple times now.
Nobody is preventing you from making that point.
You feel that you, as a small woman, couldn't have done what the large Sgt. did.
I get it.
I believe that we all get it.
I find it to be a tedious hypothetical, and I'd much rather focus on the powerful message that the large Sgt. conveyed, and the shame in the eyes of the NYPD.
I'm really not sure what you want or expect beyond that.
Let's move on and continue to inform one another about this awesomely glorious movement that most of us have been waiting quite a long time for.


CW wrote:

sure, bro. it's a man's world, so I'll do what the man says. no room here for interjecting the concerns specific to women, which, as I can tell, will be brushed off as insignificant and tedious. it'd be nice to be amongst people who stop for a second and think to themselves: you know, that's true. it must be more frustrating to be female, since there's probably a lot of truth to the fact that females are at a disadvantage when standing up for their rights against abusive authority figures.

but meh, I see that this isn't that place. we're gender blind here and we think that's a good thing.


Bruce,

I've so loved your postings on this thread, but I don't understand your dismissive and condescending tone to C-w when she was just stating her views. This board has a long history of sexism and woman-bashing. Maybe we can learn something from the protesters and make an effort to be open and inclusive to traditionally marginalized voices, especially if they are expressing concerns around sexism, racism or other forms of discrimination such as ageism, homophobia, etc.
Last edited by Free on Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: #OCCUPYWALLSTREET campaign - September 17

Postby Canadian_watcher » Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:15 pm

Protesters are cool. (just not when they are protesting what you are doing.)
Protesters are righteous. (just not those of them who think you are a part of the problem)

I just don't understand what those occupy people want. What do they want? They are just disrupting! they've said their piece, they've had a chance to make their point, now they ought to move on.

right?

;) I'm out.. no worries. don't feel like sticking around and playing latrine to everyone's shit today.

EDIT: cross posted with Free. ... many thanks to you for writing that, it is really & truly appreciated.
Last edited by Canadian_watcher on Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

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Re: #OCCUPYWALLSTREET campaign - September 17

Postby Handsome B. Wonderful » Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:21 pm

I'm wondering if it's too dismissive of me to think that corporations are evil. I think that most of the ills in the world can be traced back to corporate greed. 6 million dead in the Congo because of corporate greed. Systematic torture, rape and murder because of corporate greed. Am I too naive? Is it too glib to say 'corporate=evil'?

I'm not against anyone making lots of money, but one wonders about a person or individual who can make decisions that results in making the world worse for millions of people.
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Re: #OCCUPYWALLSTREET campaign - September 17

Postby brainpanhandler » Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:22 pm

free wrote:This board has a long history of sexism and woman-bashing.


Setting aside the trolls and idiots (very few), no it doesn't or at least much less so than society at large.

free wrote:but I don't understand your dismissive and condescending tone to C-w when she was just stating her views.


Maybe when she writes things like:

C_w wrote: this place is a fucking joke.


and

C_w wrote: we're gender blind here and we think that's a good thing.


that might help explain Bruce's tone, which could only very uncharitably be described as condescending and dismissive.


Please. Please. Please. Can we try to focus on the things we agree upon to the extent that we recognize our solidarity and common cause first and foremost? Please. Just once?
"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." - Martin Luther King Jr.
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Re: #OCCUPYWALLSTREET campaign - September 17

Postby beeline » Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:26 pm

Free wrote:Bruce D wrote:

CW,
You've made that point multiple times now.
Nobody is preventing you from making that point.
You feel that you, as a small woman, couldn't have done what the large Sgt. did.
I get it.
I believe that we all get it.
I find it to be a tedious hypothetical, and I'd much rather focus on the powerful message that the large Sgt. conveyed, and the shame in the eyes of the NYPD.
I'm really not sure what you want or expect beyond that.
Let's move on and continue to inform one another about this awesomely glorious movement that most of us have been waiting quite a long time for.


CW wrote:

sure, bro. it's a man's world, so I'll do what the man says. no room here for interjecting the concerns specific to women, which, as I can tell, will be brushed off as insignificant and tedious. it'd be nice to be amongst people who stop for a second and think to themselves: you know, that's true. it must be more frustrating to be female, since there's probably a lot of truth to the fact that females are at a disadvantage when standing up for their rights against abusive authority figures.

but meh, I see that this isn't that place. we're gender blind here and we think that's a good thing.


Bruce,

I've so loved your postings on this thread, but I don't understand your dismissive and condescending tone to C-w when she was just stating her views. This board has a long history of sexism and woman-bashing. Maybe we can learn something from the protesters and make an effort to be open and inclusive to traditionally marginalized voices, especially if they are expressing concerns around sexism, racism or other forms of discrimination such as ageism, homophobia, etc.


I don't have a problem with that. What I do have a problem with is Cw's statement of, basically, 'try being a woman and yelling at cops like that.' Well, guess what Cw, a lot of women have tried that, are in fact doing that as we speak. Did being petite stop Mother Theresa? Sojourner Truth? The Grimke sisters? My mom? Stop playing the pity-me-I'm-a-petite-woman card. Get off your ass, go join the protest, yell at some cops, then come talk to me. You may actually feel empowered for once.

Or just take your ball and go home, as you are want to do.
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Re: #OCCUPYWALLSTREET campaign - September 17

Postby Bruce Dazzling » Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:30 pm

Free wrote:Bruce D wrote:

CW,
You've made that point multiple times now.
Nobody is preventing you from making that point.
You feel that you, as a small woman, couldn't have done what the large Sgt. did.
I get it.
I believe that we all get it.
I find it to be a tedious hypothetical, and I'd much rather focus on the powerful message that the large Sgt. conveyed, and the shame in the eyes of the NYPD.
I'm really not sure what you want or expect beyond that.
Let's move on and continue to inform one another about this awesomely glorious movement that most of us have been waiting quite a long time for.


CW wrote:

sure, bro. it's a man's world, so I'll do what the man says. no room here for interjecting the concerns specific to women, which, as I can tell, will be brushed off as insignificant and tedious. it'd be nice to be amongst people who stop for a second and think to themselves: you know, that's true. it must be more frustrating to be female, since there's probably a lot of truth to the fact that females are at a disadvantage when standing up for their rights against abusive authority figures.

but meh, I see that this isn't that place. we're gender blind here and we think that's a good thing.


Bruce,

I've so loved your postings on this thread, but I don't understand your dismissive and condescending tone to C-w when she was just stating her views. This board has a long history of sexism and woman-bashing. Maybe we can learn something from the protesters and make an effort to be open and inclusive to traditionally marginalized voices, especially if they are expressing concerns around sexism or racism.


I'm open to CW's views, but when they're continuously repeated, without adding anything else of value, it becomes a tedious thread-killer.

I haven't been dismissive or condescending. I simply pointed out that arguing a hypothetical isn't a particularly fruitful exercise, and that I would prefer that we focus on celebrating the actions of the Sgt, as opposed to his size and potential to intimidate.

CW has her opinion, and I have mine. Both are allowed here at RI.

But this is becoming an echo chamber for CW's point instead of the Occupy Wall Street thread, and as I've already said, her point is on record multiple times. Can we please just leave it at that and move on?

This thread is too important to be derailed.
"Arrogance is experiential and environmental in cause. Human experience can make and unmake arrogance. Ours is about to get unmade."

~ Joe Bageant R.I.P.

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Re: #OCCUPYWALLSTREET campaign - September 17

Postby Bruce Dazzling » Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:52 pm

Buckle up.

Many links are in the original story, including one to this video:



Who are the Occupy Wall Street protesters?
Washington Post Opinion
By Jennifer Rubin


From their endorsers, their mounds of trash and their signage, it wasn’t too hard to figure out that the Occupy Wall Street crowd is not composed of regular folks. The more we learn, the more it becomes just how fringy this rag-tag mob is.

In the wake of ECI’s ad highlighting the anti-Semitic elements within OWS, the Anti-Defamation League perked up with its own message denouncing the Jew-hating messages. And even the liberal blocking backs at the National Jewish Democratic Council had to weigh in: “As NJDC has repeatedly and consistently said over the course of years, anti-Semitic and abusive Holocaust rhetoric has no place in our political discourse—including at the gatherings surrounding the ‘Occupy Wall Street’ rallies and protests, where a handful of incidents have been documented. Invoking the Holocaust or engaging in anti-Semitic canards to make a political point is never acceptable.”

But the notion that extremists are a small sliver of the protests took a blow when someone bothered to actually find out who was out in the streets. Democratic pollster Douglas Schoen writes in the Wall Street Journal:

On Oct. 10 and 11, Arielle Alter Confino, a senior researcher at my polling firm, interviewed nearly 200 protesters in New York’s Zuccotti Park. Our findings probably represent the first systematic random sample of Occupy Wall Street opinion.

Our research shows clearly that the movement doesn’t represent unemployed America and is not ideologically diverse. Rather, it comprises an unrepresentative segment of the electorate that believes in radical redistribution of wealth, civil disobedience and, in some instances, violence. Half (52%) have participated in a political movement before, virtually all (98%) say they would support civil disobedience to achieve their goals, and nearly one-third (31%) would support violence to advance their agenda.

The vast majority of demonstrators are actually employed, and the proportion of protesters unemployed (15%) is within single digits of the national unemployment rate (9.1%). . . . What binds a large majority of the protesters together—regardless of age, socioeconomic status or education—is a deep commitment to left-wing policies: opposition to free-market capitalism and support for radical redistribution of wealth, intense regulation of the private sector, and protectionist policies to keep American jobs from going overseas.

Schoen warns his fellow Democrats to keep their distance. “Thus Occupy Wall Street is a group of engaged progressives who are disillusioned with the capitalist system and have a distinct activist orientation. Among the general public, by contrast, 41% of Americans self-identify as conservative, 36% as moderate, and only 21% as liberal. That’s why the Obama-Pelosi embrace of the movement could prove catastrophic for their party.”

None of this, I suspect, will keep the liberal media from slobbering over the protesters. Nostalgia for the 1960s protests is part of the explanation, and the liberals’ widespread antipathy toward the private sector (all those profits, all that wealth-creation upsets them) certainly factors in.

But you can’t help but think there’s some catharsis going on among the demoralized elites who insisted the One was vindication of their left-leaning philosophy. In the real world, however, the liberal domestic dogma (Keynesianism) and its foreign policy fantasies (close Gitmo) crashed and burned. It would be too much to concede conservatives’ criticisms were valid. So much more satisfying, then, to blow off steam with the hard left, excoriating directly and by implication the president’s failure to achieve liberal nirvana. Eugene Robinson writes, “The biggest impact of the Occupy Wall Street protests has been to provide a focal point for generalized economic and political discontent.” Actually, it’s to provide a focal point for liberals’ economic and political discontent. And looking at the unemployment figures, President Obama’s polling numbers and the prospects for the 2012 election, they have plenty to be discontented about.
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