Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby Project Willow » Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:15 pm

8bitagent wrote:Are these guys just assholes who get brainwashed, and the mind control part makes them only say they worked alone? Or are they generally unaware of the puppet strings?


That sounds like a rhetorical question really, but I thought I'd chime in anyway. If they're formally MC'd, they're unaware. They'll say what they're trained to say. If it's just an issue of loyalty to an extremist group, they'd be more susceptible to breaking down.

I've been really busy and not able to take time to read the entire thread, but something keeps echoing in my mind, that we've been waiting awhile for this next one, the next "terrorist strike", and here it is, apparently. I think in some ways I'm still adjusting to it.

My first question was, how did this family manage to immigrate? It's not easy. And the uncle, his background and potential ties are a huge red flag. I'm tempted to query the survivor community about use by the FBI. Frankly, I hadn't heard it come up. FBI are foot soldiers who follow orders, not top level handlers, IMO. Maybe things have changed, maybe not.

.......................

I have to concur with barracuda on the FB time out, even though I found FB's call to be more thoughtful a bit hypocritical, given recent threads. Yeah, arguments take on a whole new meaning when it's personal. Calling on others to empathize should not immediately be equated with efforts to control discourse. Quite the opposite really, as attempting to put oneself in another person's shoes should deepen the conversation.

Anyway, glad for much of the commentary here as always.
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby 8bitagent » Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:22 pm

"You people yelling about martial law conspiracies...what else should have been done? They were just going door to door calmly asking residents if they had seen the suspect"
-paraphrasing the sentiments on here


Ha, yeah right.

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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby Simulist » Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:25 pm

barracuda wrote:Transcript of Dzhokhar Tsarnaev's bedside hearing available here.

Yes, I read that. And I found it encouraging that this American citizen is not being treated as an "enemy combatant," his Miranda rights were explained to him, and that he's going to be tried in a federal court and not in a military court. That's an important precedent in cases like this, post-Bush.

The Obama Administration's decisions on these things are right ones, especially as compared the opinions of such men as McCain and Graham.
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby compared2what? » Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:13 am

8bitagent wrote:But we do have to go back to Katrina to see where this started. Blackwater troops running around. Scores of black people shot in the back by cops just trying to flee. Authorities preventing people from crossing the bridge.
Power lines being axed, rescue craft being turned away. There's probably a zillion more incidents of Katrina related abuses of power. There's definitely a strong potential for "The Siege" like tactics.


I was thinking about that this morning. Because...

New Orleans After Katrina
JEFFREY ST. CLAIR And ALEXANDER COCKBURN
Tuesday night, as water rose to 20 feet through most of New Orleans, CNN relayed an advisory that food in refrigerators would last only four hours, would have to be thrown out. The next news item from CNN was an indignant bellow ...
"Hey, Shoot that Black Guy Running Off with the Bottled Water from Wal-Mart!"
BRYAN NEWBURY
"Louisiana, Louisiana They’re trying to wash us away, They’re trying to wash us away." It isn’t my custom to watch the network or cable news channels. CSPAN’s Book TV is fantastic, as is t...
What are These Hurricanes Trying to Tell Us?
ALAN FARAGO
We are riveted to images of the hurricane’s victims hauled by choppers from rooftops because we are as amazed by the ways life carries us away as we are by salvation. Hurricanes are never just about hurricanes. They are also about communities pulling ...
The National Guard Belongs in New Orleans and Biloxi. Not Baghdad.
NORMAN SOLOMON
The men and women of the National Guard shouldn’t be killing in Iraq. They should be helping in New Orleans and Biloxi. The catastrophic hurricane was an act of God. But the U.S. war effort in Iraq is a continuing act of the president. And now, that e...


...you didn't see Counterpunch saying "POLICE STATE" then.

But it wasn't like the people of New Orleans were subjected to a terrifying show of force, that's for sure. And they were largely spared the staying-in-their-homes-for-part-of-a-day thing, too, On a long-term basis, in many cases.

So apples and oranges.
....

I'm not just trying to be snarky here. The real problem I have with this...

The argument that the lock-down might have spared people from being shot by the fleeing Dzhokhar Tsarnaev is absurd. Considered armed and dangerous, he might, instead of slipping inside a canvas-covered boat, have broken into a home and taken a family hostage. In fact, arguably had people been out and about, Tsarnaev would probably never have managed to escape unnoticed on foot from the 20-block perimeter police had established around the scene of the initial shootout in Watertown. People would have noticed him wounded and running. Instead, they were all huddled inside their locked homes.


...is that whenever/wherever that's not a problem -- ie, whenever/wherever the cops just start letting all neighborhoods and all armed suspects work stuff out themselves, the sovereign way -- all that ever happens is that gangs and/or militias take over.

Which is great for them, I guess. It's just not my idea of freedom.
______________

Anyway. I find the pitch and volume of this particular bout of "Police-State!"-crying suspect. It's not as anti-fascist as it's being made out to be, what they're encouraging people to demand.
______________

Sorry. I'll try to shut up about it now.
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby compared2what? » Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:17 am

8bitagent wrote:"You people yelling about martial law conspiracies...what else should have been done? They were just going door to door calmly asking residents if they had seen the suspect"
-paraphrasing the sentiments on here


Ha, yeah right.


But who are those people?

Do you know?

It looks like an arrest. But I can't find any Watertown police action matching it. And that's a problem, no matter how you look at it.
“If someone comes out of a liquor store with a weapon and 50 dollars in cash I don’t care if a Drone kills him or a policeman kills him.” -- Rand Paul
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby Canadian_watcher » Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:41 am

It didn't look like an arrest to me. The dog came out on a leash held by one of the females and she took the dog down the street with her. Each person was (i'm supposing from the action) told to run, between 'stations' of police officers outside of the house, at thebottom of the steps, and then at the neighbour's yard. They moved along this path unescorted There were no cuffs, and during an arrest, cuffs are pretty standard op as far as I know..
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby stickdog99 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:44 am

There was a police state in New Orleans for Katrina as well. However, it was used to protect the rich neighborhoods and merchants, and keep anybody from getting in to help those in poor neighborhoods.

Remember, the police and hired mercenaries stopped the Red Cross and citizen organized canoe rescuers (among scores of others trying to help) from entering the city.

In the case of Boston, the perp was only found after city officials lifted the lock down and allowed people to leave their homes without facing the threat of jail.
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby Canadian_watcher » Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:51 am

compared2what? wrote:


But who are those people?

Do you know?

[/quote]

This is what I'd like answered WRT to the guy who swore out the complaint or whatever it was, mentioned up thread.
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby justdrew » Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:57 am

well... this does look rather suspicious... :shrug:

Image
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby 8bitagent » Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:02 am

FourthBase wrote:
I'm still not applauding. I'm not a fan of cops beating, shooting or kicking in the doors of innocent people for no reason. I just don't see the point of objecting to it when it's not happening.


But that...didn't happen? Right?
So...yes, maybe applaud? Yeah?

Or is it what some of them might have done in the past? Or, tomorrow?
If so, I can see that. I can see how it might then look like empty kayfabe, even.

http://www.edge.org/q2011/q11_16.html#weinstein


Sometimes when I hear of endless shootings in cities, child killers on the loose, etc I think how maybe a big brother grid would be ok, like out of Scanner Darkly the movie.
I of course envision Seals teams being used to go in and violently take out global pedo traffickers. Or martial law and other tactics used to make West/South Chicago safe for everyone.

But then I realize there's also a downside.
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:14 am

The ABC news in Australia is claiming the second suspect has been charged with using a WMD.

Must be one of those ones they found in Iraq.

BTW That 4xhan/craft international graphic is interesting.

But I dunno if the two caps match - to my eyes, based on that image they seem slightly different, and also, if they were the bombers why were they running around in identifiable gear? Those are the two main objections I have to the graphic. Tho the second one is kind of irrelevant cos it could have been another private security agency trying to discredit Craft Int. or anyone using their gear as a disguise.
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby barracuda » Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:26 am

justdrew wrote:well... this does look rather suspicious... :shrug:


Maybe. Here's a post that works pretty hard to identify the guys in that collage.

tl;dr, they're likely National Guard.

It don't mean they didn't do nothin', though.
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby 8bitagent » Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:30 am

stefano wrote:Craig Murray, always worth a read:

The Tsarnaev Conundrum

Cui Bono? Putin. The alleged actions of the Tsarnaev brothers are a massive setback to the cause of Chechen nationalism. The Russian government have been trying for a decade to conflate the repression of Chechen nationalism with the western construct of “the global war on terror”, with very limited diplomatic success. Now expect to hear continually about “Al Qaeda in the Southern Caucasus” in the next few years. Events in Boston have been a massive diplomatic coup for Putin.

In the late 1830′s, Palmerston launched a (disastrous) secret service operation to ship weapons to anti-Russian rebels in modern Chechnya and Dagestan. This was contributory to the tensions that caused the First Anglo-Afghan War, and will feature in my forthcoming biography of Alexander Burnes. For almost two hundred years now there has been covert Western encouragement of anti-Russian movements in the Caucasus – which is not to say that the West was involved in or encouraged the urban terrorist wing of the Chechen nationalist movement in modern times. But links between Chechen nationalists and the US government have been maintained, and there is no support whatsoever among any significant Chechen nationalist leadership for the Boston bombings.

I cannot recommend too highly “Darkness at Dawn” by David Satter, a book which is crucial to an understanding of a key part of the modern world. Satter sets out an extremely strong case, from eyewitness interviews at the time, that The “Chechen” apartment bombings which paid such a crucial part in building the cult of Putin, were false flag – something which the British Embassy in Moscow also strongly inclined to believe. There is a history of false Chechen bombings being very helpful to Putin. These bombings are very helpful to Putin.

It is perfectly possible that this is not relevant at all, and the Tsarnaev brothers became radicalised in the United States by real, and non-Chechen related, terrorists, or simply auto-radicalised. But presuming the Tsarnaevs really did plant these bombs, just who was ultimately pulling the strings and why may be an extremely complex question – and one to which young Dzokhar Tsarnaev is most unlikely to know the real answer.


I see two strain of thoughts in the realm of deep politic/conspiracy circles.

1. Putin is a monster, 9/99 were stage, all Chechen blamed terror events are FSB intel and Chechens have been slaughtered wholesale by Russia. Putin and Bush were pals who both post 9/11 could appreciate a mutual hate of Muslims and go on a killing spree.

2. The neocons and elite hate Russia and foment Chechens as a proxy move against Putin. Chechens are ruthless savages and Putin is a good guy who is one of the only leaders not in the pocket of the NWO.

The media and cops are saying the surviving brother is claiming noone else helped. Some believe FSB somehow used imans or militants to radicalize the older brother. Who knows what to think.

Even if it turns out there's no evidence of FSB, FBI informants, etc...some black ops are *blacker* than others.
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby semper occultus » Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:38 am

Why I don’t see any Russian plot behind the Boston bombings

inmoscowsshadows.wordpress.com

I’ve been struck in the past 48 hours how many journalists’ queries I’ve fielded that seemed to take seriously the idea that the Russian state (or local agents in the North Caucasus) could somehow be responsible for the terrible Boston bombing. (I’m talking 6 serious journalists: not the kind of lunatics who, for example, claimed the real bombers were Navy SEALs.) The idea would seem to be that by encouraging, facilitating or downright arranging the attack, they demonize the Chechens, legitimize their brutal security campaign in the North Caucasus, and create a new, more favorable environment for dealing with the USA, in one fell swoop. A cute idea, worthy fodder for some lurid airport thriller, but in my opinion very, very hard to believe.

I can understand why the Tsarnaevs’ family and friends might want to believe that Tamerlan and Dzhokar were framed or set up. It’s the same impulse that leads to the disbelieving and perplexed statements that “he was a lovely man” or “he kept himself to himself” every time some serial killer or child abuser is arrested. Evil thoughts and plans, alas, do not always or even usually manifest themselves through sinister manner and demented cackles.

However, if we look at these particular suggestions (some of which also come from Russians), they seem to rest of a few basic assertions:

■The FSB had suspicions about Tamerlan Tsarnaev, so the fact that they let him into the country shows that they had some ulterior motive.
■Putin was willing to blow up Russian apartment buildings in 1999 for political purpose, so he’d have no more compunction seeing terror in Boston.
■The Russians want to make the world stop hassling them about their tactics in the North Caucasus: this gives them a perfect way of demonstrating that they are simply fighting evil jihadists.
■In the most ridiculously extreme cases, it’s asserted that the Kremlin just hates the USA anyway, and likes seeing mayhem there.
Of course Moscow will seek to make political capital out of this event; that’s what countries do (I remember when offers of assistance to the USSR after Chernobyl were also accompanied by patronizing suggestions about how this wouldn’t have happened if the Soviets were less Soviet and more Western). That certainly doesn’t mean that “hardliners in Russia might want another Cold War with America, and they may even secretly rejoice at the idea of mayhem in the West.” The pragmatic art of diplomacy is often about making the best from whatever fate presents.

The Kremlin has not shown itself averse to the use of violence in domestic and international politics (I’m inclined to accept the 1999 apartment bombings were state terrorism), but this is a world apart from actually trying to instigate an attack on US soil. The risks so outweigh the potential advantages that I don’t think it would even have been seriously considered. There is one basic rule of covert operations: at some point, they become covert no longer. If Tamerlan had been an active, aware agent, what would have happened if he had been captured? Even assuming that he was instead a dupe, groomed for the purpose by Russian undercover agents posing as jihadists, what happens when the US authorities–who, we can safely assume, are turning the full weight of their massive intelligence capacity onto this case–get a sniff of this? Any political advantages are likely to be transient (think how quickly the post 9/11 amity evaporated); any political risks astronomical.

Besides which, the FSB flags up potential individuals of concern all the time. They don’t necessarily bar them from the country. One could just as easily (and foolishly) suggest that the FBI’s failure to pick up on the brothers’ jihadist sentiments in 2011, after the FSB had passed on a warning about them, showed that somehow the US authorities were involved. (And for the record, while the inevitable inquiry will say for sure, we need not assume the FBI “failed” here–Tamerlan may not have been fully radicalized by then, the FBI get many such warnings, and in any case they are often rightly skeptical of FSB tip-offs as the Russians often claim people are “terrorists” on the flimsiest grounds or just to smear political oppositionists.)

The world is usually a simpler place than people think, and covert actions less common and less attractive than the movies suggest. We’ll wait and see, but to me this is a case of an alienated young man looking for answers and sadly finding them in the ideology of global jihad, and apparently bringing his brother into the cause. In some ways this is harder to understand than deep plots and cunning stratagems, because it requires us to accept that the Western liberal democratic model does not satisfy everyone and that we cannot control the vagaries of lost souls…

(Oh, by the way: North Korea has denied being behind the bombing, too. So that’s alright, then.)




This blog's author, Dr Mark Galeotti has been researching Russian history and security issues since the late 1980s. Educated at Cambridge University and the LSE, he is now Clinical Professor of Global Affairs at New York University's Center for Global Affairs and an associate member of NYU's History and Russian & Slavic Studies departments. Until 2008, he was head of the History department at Keele University in the UK as well as director of its Organised Russian & Eurasian Crime Research Unit.

His books include the edited collections 'The Politics of Security in Modern Russia' (Ashgate), 'Russian & Soviet Organized Crime' (Ashgate) and 'Global Crime Today' (Routledge) and he is a regular contributor to Jane's Intelligence Review, Oxford Analytica and many other outlets. He writes a regular column, 'Siloviks & Scoundrels,' for the Moscow News.



....pressure cookers are weapons of mass destruction...?....so Iraq did have WMD's then.... :yay
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby justdrew » Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:53 am

barracuda wrote:
justdrew wrote:well... this does look rather suspicious... :shrug:


Maybe. Here's a post that works pretty hard to identify the guys in that collage.

tl;dr, they're likely National Guard.

It don't mean they didn't do nothin', though.


ok, that looks good enough for me I guess. so be it, they're NG CST team members some of which happen to have the tacky Craft hats on. Even if there was no advance suspicion that something 'might be up' they could very reasonably use events like this as training opportunities or just general preparedness.

as for the missing backpack, if there's no weapons or particular valuables in there, it may have just been dropped when the bomb(s) went off. Maybe it was full of first aid gear.
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