How Bad Is Global Warming?

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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby Ben D » Fri May 16, 2014 11:40 pm

Rory » Sat May 17, 2014 12:54 pm wrote:Wait, wait - did you just invoke The Daily Misogynist White Impotent Caller?
BWAHAHAHAHAH you're so fucking CUTE!
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Daily_Caller
Trucker Carlson gives you your news? BWAHAHAHAHA you really are a conservative old white boy, aintcha?
You fucking BEAUT!

You still don't get it....it's the news stupid!...the U of Q is taking legal action to block the release of data used by one of its scientists to come up with the oft-quoted statistic that 97 percent of climate scientists agree that mankind is causing global warming.

I have feeling it wouldn't matter which msm outlet was used, you would still go bananas...http://www.theaustralian.com.au/higher- ... 6920713818 BWAHAHAHAHAH
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby Rory » Sat May 17, 2014 1:49 am

Ben, you're adorable. You love that line; 'It's the *insert blank*, stupid'. You sound so sexy when you're angry *swoons*

xoxox
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby Rory » Sat May 17, 2014 1:53 am

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Australian

Editor-in-chief Chris Mitchell has said that the editorial and op-ed pages of the newspaper are centre-right,[8] "comfortable with a mainstream Labor prime minister Kevin Rudd, just as it was quite comfortable with John Howard."[3] According to other commentators, however, the newspaper "is generally conservative in tone and heavily oriented toward business; it has a range of columnists of varying political persuasions but mostly to the right."[9] Its former editor Paul Kelly has stated that "The Australian has established itself in the marketplace as a newspaper that strongly supports economic libertarianism".[10]

The Australian presents varying views on climate change, including giving space to articles and authors who agree with the scientific consensus, such as Tim Flannery, those who agree with the cause but who disagree with the methods of coping with it, such as Bjørn Lomborg,[11] through to those who disagree that the causes or even presence of global warming are understood, such as Ian Plimer.

In September 2010, the ABC's Media Watch presenter Paul Barry, accused The Australian of waging a campaign against the Australian Greens, and the Green's federal leader Bob Brown wrote that The Australian has "stepped out of the fourth estate by seeing itself as a determinant of democracy in Australia". In response, The Australian opined that "Greens leader Bob Brown has accused The Australian of trying to wreck the alliance between the Greens and Labor. We wear Senator Brown's criticism with pride. We believe he and his Green colleagues are hypocrites; that they are bad for the nation; and that they should be destroyed at the ballot box."[12]

(Politically conservative, misogynist, climate science illiterate, pro growth, pro business, pro patriarchy)

It's the NEWS, stupid. LoL
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby slimmouse » Sat May 17, 2014 3:04 pm

I dont suppose it helps me believing in AGW, when all the official models actually turn out to be nothing but the usual BS.

Reminds me of 9/11, or Iraq's WMDs, where the results are so not-so surprisingly familiar and similar.

"our models conclude 9/11 was conducted by 19 arabs with stanley knives"

" our models conclude that Iraq has WMDs."

" Our models on CO2/ climate change, which are on show and are so fucking wrong its not funny, we need a big pile of apologists on our side, paid or otherwise"

Thats truly is how I see it.

Ive got a simple question for Dame Rory and co.

What Scientific "proof by repetition" based on climate measurement/ CO2 emmissions over the modern age of mankind, proves that AGW is real?

Or is AGW the only Scientific fact which actually requires a zero repeatability to be confirmed as official science?

Is there life on Mars?
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby DrEvil » Sat May 17, 2014 3:22 pm

slimmouse » Sat May 17, 2014 9:04 pm wrote:I dont suppose it helps me believing in AGW, when all the official models actually turn out to be nothing but the usual BS.

Reminds me of 9/11, or Iraq's WMDs, where the results are so not-so surprisingly familiar and similar.

"our models conclude 9/11 was conducted by 19 arabs with stanley knives"

" our models conclude that Iraq has WMDs."

" Our models on CO2/ climate change, which are on show and are so fucking wrong its not funny, we need a big pile of apologists on our side, paid or otherwise"

Thats truly is how I see it.

Ive got a simple question for Dame Rory and co.

What Scientific "proof by repetition" based on climate measurement/ CO2 emmissions over the modern age of mankind, proves that AGW is real?

Or is AGW the only Scientific fact which actually requires a zero repeatability to be confirmed as official science?

Is there life on Mars?


Don't know about Mars, but I'm beginning to doubt the existence of intelligent life on Earth.

And what do you mean by zero repeatability? Scientists have been doing the same measurements repeatedly for decades. They show a clear trend. That's why they're alarmed. And there hasn't actually been a stop in warming, no matter what your pal Ben might claim. The oceans are warming (and rising), the arctic is warming (but the graph with the "pause" doesn't include that data) and we're currently in a La Nina, which is a temporary cool-down (when it flips back to El Nino in a few years and starts adding to the warming we're in for some fun times).

There's also some indications that China's air pollution might be part of the slow-down, but they're cleaning up their act, so that effect will soon be gone.

Basically - there's several things that might explain the current slow-down (if there actually is any). What they have in common is that they won't last very long, and most of them will start adding to the heat when their cycles turn.
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby slimmouse » Sat May 17, 2014 3:31 pm

Dr Evil, can you tell me if the "official" climate change models and facts are definitively better than those others I mentioned?

On paper, on the record, they currently suck, and yet they are "official".

The lie that was 9/11 is still very "official".


I feel as if this is a very important point.

Im still waiting BTW, for some temperature predictions based on Solar activity from yourself and others. In line with "official predictions" of course.

Oh and for what its worth, we do need to stop raping the earth.
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby Iamwhomiam » Sat May 17, 2014 3:52 pm

Ben D » Fri May 16, 2014 9:49 pm wrote:...and some synchro...the 97% AGW consensus claim paper by Cook et al SkS team is making news as we speak...
http://dailycaller.com/2014/05/16/where-did-97-percent-global-warming-consensus-figure-come-from/#ixzz31vsm3CoR

Where Did ’97 Percent’ Global Warming Consensus Figure Come From?

5:03 PM 05/16/2014

The University of Queensland in Australia is taking legal action to block the release of data used by one of its scientists to come up with the oft-quoted statistic that 97 percent of climate scientists agree that mankind is causing global warming.

Since coming out with this figure last year, climate scientist John Cook of the University of Queensland’s Global Change Institute has been under fire for the methodology he used.

“Our analysis indicates that the number of papers rejecting the consensus on [anthropogenic global warming] is a vanishingly small proportion of the published research,’’ Cook and his fellow authors wrote in their study which was published in the journal Environmental Research Letters last year.

The university has told climate skeptic blogger Brandon Schollenberger that the data on the study he possesses was illegally obtained and they would take legal action against him if he published it.

“UQ has therefore published all data relating to the paper that is of any scientific value to the wider community,” said Queensland’s acting pro-vice-­chancellor Alastair McEwan.

“UQ withheld only data that could identify research participants who took part in the ­research on condition of anonymity,” McEwan added. “Such conditions are not uncommon in academic ­research, and any breach of confidentiality could deter people from participating in valuable research in the future.”

McEwan said that all the data Cook used to come up with his “97 percent” consensus was published on his blog SkepticalScience.com. The school says it wants to protect the privacy of those surveyed in Cook’s research.

“That’s right. The University of Queensland sent me a threatening letter which threatens me further if I show anyone that letter,” Schollenberger wrote on his blog Thursday. “Confusing, no? It gets stranger. Along with its threats, the University of Queensland included demands.”

“According to it, I’m not just prevented from disclosing any of the ‘intellectual property’ (IP) I’ve gained access to,” Schollenberger added. “I’m prevented from even doing anything which involves using the data. That means I can’t discuss the data. I can’t perform analyses on it. I can’t share anything about it with you.”

“Apparently I badgered Cook too much. I tried too hard to get him to do his duty and try to protect his subjects’ privacy. The University of Queensland needs me to stop. If I don’t, they’ll sue me,” he said.

Cook’s paper has been touted by environmentalists and the Obama administration as evidence that virtually all scientists agree that global warming is a man-made threat.

“Ninety-seven percent of scientists, including, by the way, some who originally disputed the data, have now put that to rest,” President Obama said last year announcing his climate plan. “They’ve acknowledged the planet is warming and human activity is contributing to it.”

But Cook’s 97 percent consensus claim was rebutted in subsequent analyses of his study. A paper by five leading climatologists published in the journal Science and Education last year found that Cook’s study misrepresented the views of most consensus scientists.

The definition Cook used to get his consensus was weak, the climatologists said. Only 41 out of the 11,944 published climate studies examined by Cook explicitly stated that mankind caused most of the warming since 1950 — meaning the actual consensus is 0.3 percent.

“It is astonishing that any journal could have published a paper claiming a 97% climate consensus when on the authors’ own analysis the true consensus was well below 1%,” said Dr. David Legates, a geology professor at the University of Delaware and the study’s lead author.


Yes, Ben very misleading, those last two paragraphs of yours. Astonishing, really, considering it's a piece written to discredit what is being claimed as misleading by Cook.

In truth, all climate researchers understand why and agree human contributions are warming our atmosphere and oceans. To what degree human impacts actually contribute to the overall warming is questioned by all.

Most climate researchers believe human contributions to be considerable enough to be significantly adding heat to our atmosphere and oceans and is contributing to the ongoing altering our climate.

Let's not forget how Global Warming research began... we were expecting a period of global cooling when it began getting warmer and warmer, prompting the question, "Why?" ('60s & '70s)

Of the few climate researchers who some have termed "AGW Deniers," (I cannot recall what the 'c' Ben's added represents nor does it matter), who've dissented from the larger consensus opinion stated above, most understand why human contributions warm our climate, but argue the degree of the impact cannot be significant enough to cause the observed overall warming of our atmosphere and oceans.

A few scientists, through their research have come to believe human contributions to be the major factor causing our present warming atmosphere and oceans when the it should be cooling.

And a very few climate researchers have determined human contributions to our atmosphere cannot possibly impact our climate or warm our oceans.

That's the entirety of the argument.

Peer review identifies most any error should any paper pass editorial review on the way to publication.

Sometimes, because of the extreme complexity of our chemical atmosphere, land and sea ecosystems something might be noticed to be missing from a certain aspect of research, such as when it was noticed that H2O molecules in our atmosphere was accounted by mass only and not its ability to magnify and concentrate sunlight, much as the fellow featured in a recent RI posting has discovered and is utilizing to produce solar power units.

This was helpful to researchers to learn but boy did the talking heads begin chattering about deception and flawed studies and models engaged in by the members of the IPCC.

We all remember how the Hockey Stick 'crisis' got played up big time by the corporatists and how the controversy over melting Himalayan glaciers. While the later was caused by a typo, the former was manufactured and neither finding significantly altered the overall findings and upheld the veracity of the research.

And that would be that our human contributions to our air and waters have altered the natural cycles of our planet.

While we cannot do much to alter natural causes for our warming climate, we can do everything necessary to alter human contributions, but we must act and act decisively and quickly.

Diversions by those who question without reason only serve to delay our taking appropriate necessary action. And that serves well only those in power, our industrial magnates, who would object to any distraction preventing maximization of profit.

Even now we may not be able to stop the warming, but we can certainly do what's necessary to preserve life and to minimize the harm to come.

Take a look at satellite images of the continents at night and notice where our population centers are. We can move these populations now.

And those wondering about state security and intelligence, whether climate change is a fraud to further enslave you --- you are in a prison of your own making, wake up!

The impacts of climate change are a friggin nightmare for intelligence and defense agencies and far more complicated than any terrorist cell might pose.

You can't write words describing survival in a primitive world because it will become beyond far more horrible than your comprehension can now grasp.

Soon enough, I fear, you will find the fitting words.

Sadly, Ben, the example you provide is as misleading as the point it tries to make.

Only 41 out of the 11,944 published climate studies examined by Cook explicitly stated that mankind caused most of the warming since 1950 — meaning the actual consensus is 0.3 percent.


The last paragraph of your article is really what's funny, Ben.

How many of those 11,903 studies explicitly state mankind has caused no warming?

I think it's time for your article's last paragraph:
“It is astonishing that any journal could have published a paper claiming a 97% climate consensus when on the authors’ own analysis the true consensus was well below 1%,” said Dr. David Legates, a geology professor at the University of Delaware and the study’s lead author.


Ben, among scientists conducting climate research, what is percentage of those who deny anthropogenic global warming contributes consequentially to climate change?

Would you please link to their research? I'd like to read it.
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby Rory » Sat May 17, 2014 3:59 pm

Slim - you're either trolling.

Or, are learning disabled.
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby slimmouse » Sat May 17, 2014 4:10 pm

Rory » 17 May 2014 19:59 wrote:Slim - you're either trolling.

Or, are learning disabled.


Well thanks for answering none of my questions again Rory. All of them.

Which is more official in your view ? The official story of 9/11 or that of AGW?

How about the bailouts? Did we absolutely need to save these institutions in order to save ourselves?

Rory, Doc, IAWIA, anyone?
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby slimmouse » Sat May 17, 2014 4:21 pm

Forgot to mention that we urgently need to stop raping the earth.
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby DrEvil » Sat May 17, 2014 4:23 pm

slimmouse » Sat May 17, 2014 9:31 pm wrote:Dr Evil, can you tell me if the "official" climate change models and facts are definitively better than those others I mentioned?

On paper, on the record, they currently suck, and yet they are "official".

The lie that was 9/11 is still very "official".


I feel as if this is a very important point.

Im still waiting BTW, for some temperature predictions based on Solar activity from yourself and others. In line with "official predictions" of course.

Oh and for what its worth, we do need to stop raping the earth.


What the Holy Hell does 9/11 and WMD's have to do with climate change? Oh, that's right: Not a god damn thing. It is not a very important point. It is an exceedingly inane, and downright stupid "point".
(I think the technical term is "false equivalency".)

And if you want temperature predictions from me, you're even dumber than I thought. Why not the Pope? Or Rush Limbaugh? Or Anyone but those qualified?
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby Iamwhomiam » Sat May 17, 2014 6:13 pm

slimmouse » Sat May 17, 2014 3:04 pm wrote:I dont suppose it helps me believing in AGW, when all the official models actually turn out to be nothing but the usual BS.

Reminds me of 9/11, or Iraq's WMDs, where the results are so not-so surprisingly familiar and similar.

"our models conclude 9/11 was conducted by 19 arabs with stanley knives"

" our models conclude that Iraq has WMDs."

" Our models on CO2/ climate change, which are on show and are so fucking wrong its not funny, we need a big pile of apologists on our side, paid or otherwise"

Thats truly is how I see it.

Ive got a simple question for Dame Rory and co.

What Scientific "proof by repetition" based on climate measurement/ CO2 emmissions over the modern age of mankind, proves that AGW is real?

Or is AGW the only Scientific fact which actually requires a zero repeatability to be confirmed as official science?

Is there life on Mars?


slim, it's quite rude to all of our mature members to see someone attempt to emasculate another in such a manner so demeaning of women. Please don't do that. While your slight was meant to offend Rory, you've offended others and did nothing to enhance your character. But more than that, I'm trying to be patient with you and I'm trying to answer your questions carefully and accurately with the hope you will see things a bit differently on this issue then you do now. The reason I'm trying my best to communicate clearly with you is because this one issue is far more important than any ever before encountered or experienced, and we must be prepared for the changes to come. I doubt we can prevent those disastrous events to come, but we can be prepared and find ourselves relatively secure when disaster hits. Location, location, location.

Then, when I read, "Dame..." I think, 'Why would I want to help someone who thinks like this to have a better understanding of his world and its health if he has so little understanding of his fellow man or even of himself?'

And while I have no good answer, still I try, while exerting no small effort to suppress my blue collar ironworker colloquialisms bubbling about within.

So please help me with this slim, ok? I'll have to break it down and will answer your question before asking mine.

I must say now, though, that your posting is extremely vague on details and I will need some clarification about what exactly it is that you're referring to a certain points, ok?

I dont suppose it helps me believing in AGW, when all the official models actually turn out to be nothing but the usual BS.


What models are you specifically referring to, slim. None being used have been found to be flawed. Water vapor was an omission, and did nothing to invalidate the modeling used. And nothing published has been BS. It's called science. Peer review usually finds and minor errors or omissions missed by editors, but sometimes error is noted as in the typo that caused the Himalayan glacier debacle and an omission, like the magnification properties of a water molecule, is noted and added, further enhancing the model's predictive properties.

Reminds me of 9/11, or Iraq's WMDs, where the results are so not-so surprisingly familiar and similar.

"our models conclude 9/11 was conducted by 19 arabs with stanley knives"

" our models conclude that Iraq has WMDs."


Unless your point is that our government often misleads us, all this is off-topic, at least as stated. Surely you're not suggesting thermometers around the world are under the control of the PtB, at least not any more than the gases contained within "2 million year old" antarctic ice cores, are you? (I feel my self restraint slipping...)

" Our models on CO2/ climate change, which are on show and are so fucking wrong its not funny, we need a big pile of apologists on our side, paid or otherwise"

Thats truly is how I see it.


Another question for you, slim: What models in particular are you referring to slim when you write "CO2/ climate change"? What specifically is so very wrong about them and what was each model's final determination?

Lastly for that quote, I really have no idea who you are referring to as needing apologists, but those opposing proposed actions to combat climate change are very wealthy industrialists who pay their messengers very well, and they are very effective, as is apparent by their unpaid apologists presence here.

What Scientific "proof by repetition" based on climate measurement/ CO2 emmissions over the modern age of mankind, proves that AGW is real?


slim, I really find it hard to believe you've asked this question now, after all of these postings covering more than one thread over the course of several years. Honestly, have you yet read one published report?

The evidence supporting the existence, the reality of anthropogenic global warming is uncontested by scientists, even those we call denialists.

Or is AGW the only Scientific fact which actually requires a zero repeatability to be confirmed as official science?


Tell me slim, how do you repeat yesterday, especially when you can't even prove you yourself exists!
(sorry, ot trick question. disregard)

Models don't prove anything; they predict probability. The maths used in modeling is repeatable and another reason for peer review, to prove the accuracy of the model, and if found to be accurate, the likelihood of what the model predicts.

Please read, slim. Preferably from a source far afield of Alex Jones, from a real scientific journal.
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby Ben D » Sat May 17, 2014 7:33 pm

Iamwhomiam » Sun May 18, 2014 5:52 am wrote:
Ben D » Fri May 16, 2014 9:49 pm wrote:...and some synchro...the 97% AGW consensus claim paper by Cook et al SkS team is making news as we speak...
http://dailycaller.com/2014/05/16/where-did-97-percent-global-warming-consensus-figure-come-from/#ixzz31vsm3CoR

Where Did ’97 Percent’ Global Warming Consensus Figure Come From?

The definition Cook used to get his consensus was weak, the climatologists said. Only 41 out of the 11,944 published climate studies examined by Cook explicitly stated that mankind caused most of the warming since 1950 — meaning the actual consensus is 0.3 percent.

“It is astonishing that any journal could have published a paper claiming a 97% climate consensus when on the authors’ own analysis the true consensus was well below 1%,” said Dr. David Legates, a geology professor at the University of Delaware and the study’s lead author.

Peer review identifies most any error should any paper pass editorial review on the way to publication.

I think it's time for your article's last paragraph:
“It is astonishing that any journal could have published a paper claiming a 97% climate consensus when on the authors’ own analysis the true consensus was well below 1%,” said Dr. David Legates, a geology professor at the University of Delaware and the study’s lead author.


Ben, among scientists conducting climate research, what is percentage of those who deny anthropogenic global warming contributes consequentially to climate change?

Would you please link to their research? I'd like to read it.

Well the paper in question is saying that less than 1% endorsed the claim that most of the global warming since 1950 was anthropogenic caused.

And Iam, the relevant paper IS peer reviewed, so according to your assertion above, you should trust the author's findings. The abstract is here but paywalled...http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11191-013-9647-9
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby Ben D » Sat May 17, 2014 8:15 pm

Iamwhomiam » Sun May 18, 2014 8:13 am wrote:Models don't prove anything; they predict probability. The maths used in modeling is repeatable and another reason for peer review, to prove the accuracy of the model, and if found to be accurate, the likelihood of what the model predicts.

Iam...but until now they have no accuracy so there is no proof that can predict anything accurately yet. Their inaccuracy is that they are all predicting higher temperatures than actual is occurring...and the reason, according to the skeptics, is that the GCM maths use too high a forcing for the anthropogenic CO2 factor. Their dilemma is that if they reduce the human derived CO2 forcing to make the model better reflect reality...then the 2100 temperature levels are not threatening to the planet and thus the UN and world governments, from whom the climate scientists get their funding, have no pretext for a global wide carbon tax and whatever else they want to do.

Epic climate model failure

Nearby is a running graph of 5-year averages for the tropical tropospheric temperature, climate models versus observations. In all, 73 climate models from the Coupled Model Intercomparison Project are plotted against observations so that their respective 1979-2012 trend lines all intersect in 1979, which we believe is the most meaningful way to simultaneously plot the models’ results for comparison to the observations.

Image

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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby Iamwhomiam » Sat May 17, 2014 11:19 pm

Well the paper in question is saying that less than 1% endorsed the claim that most of the global warming since 1950 was anthropogenic caused.


Ben, that's not at all what was quoted and while being informative, your inaccurate summation as it is, is misleading, as is the article.
In fact it's untruthful.

While the 41 papers do represent 0.003 of the 11,944 examined by Cook and far from rejecting the consensus of the other 11,903 published papers that Cook reviewed, they are in agreement with their consensus, but none other than the 41 make the claim humankind is the largest party responsible explicitly.

Our analysis indicates that the number of papers rejecting the consensus on [anthropogenic global warming] is a vanishingly small proportion of the published research,’’ Cook and his fellow authors wrote in their study which was published in the journal Environmental Research Letters last year.


Please note the distinction between Cook's claim and that being made by the 5 authors refuting it.

But Cook’s 97 percent consensus claim was rebutted in subsequent analyses of his study. A paper by five leading climatologists published in the journal Science and Education last year found that Cook’s study misrepresented the views of most consensus scientists.

The definition Cook used to get his consensus was weak, the climatologists said. Only 41 out of the 11,944 published climate studies examined by Cook explicitly stated that mankind caused most of the warming since 1950 — meaning the actual consensus is 0.3 percent.

“It is astonishing that any journal could have published a paper claiming a 97% climate consensus when on the authors’ own analysis the true consensus was well below 1%,” said Dr. David Legates, a geology professor at the University of Delaware and the study’s lead author.


Cook has claimed few climate scientists papers have utterly rejected the consensus of scientists and that is accurate.

That 41 papers actually do find humans largely responsible is astounding, as scientists rarely make such extraordinary claims.

The best science we have confirms humankind's contributions are warming our climate at an alarming rate and that the momentary pause in warming has been assumed by most researchers to be a transfer of heat into deep waters and will again in short time rebound and continue to increase.

I guess none of you read my cancer analogy. It's really that simple to understand. Do nothing and die a horrible death or do something and maybe you get to die all comfy in your bed.

Do nothing and you might be lucky enough to wind up starving to death in a rain soaked muddy ditch where you've hidden from those who hunt you for food.

Your actions will determine which world your children will inherit and even if drastic action curtailed carbon emissions tomorrow, we still may not escape the horrors to come, due mostly to your procrastination, serving and supporting the power structures well.

I've got maybe 5 or 10 years, if I'm lucky. I really don't care all that much myself about what's to come, but I do care for my descendants well being and work to preserve it.
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