Un-PC Men Are Attacked By Bitches for No Reason.

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Postby compared2what? » Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:34 am

GM Citizen wrote:
compared2what? wrote:See how your comment addresses 8bit's comment, which was about rape, to which I objected, to which he objected? And how what you said was that his mistake was forgetting that "you MUST always paint the female as the victim, without exception. That is unless it is an abusive lesbian relationship, in which case you should just disregard it"?

That excludes the possibility that his mistake might have been saying something about rape that I might have objected to on grounds other than its failure to paint the female as a victim. Res ipsa loquitur, if you read it from start to finish.

I did not find it reprehensible. I found it unjustified by any reality known to me. Also, I wasn't agitated. I've been meaning to mention that.


It seemed to me that you were jumping on him rather harshly. From my vantage point (outside of your head) I saw it as PC run amok, and chided 8bit accordingly, with a bit of humor.

When you look at the broad issue of rape, there are many facets of it, and as a result, many victims as well. You can have male victims, female victims, male false accusers (often male victims), female false accusers (often male victims).

But, we have been conditioned through nothing if not a concerted campaign of repetitiveness that rape equals female victim/male perpetrator. To think outside that predefined, and limiting box is to run afoul, in a major way, of PC. Those are my beliefs.


I understand that those are your beliefs. The reason that I have come to think of the post in which you outline them as The GMCene Creed is because I have yet to see you assert them as anything other than articles of fath -- ie, you are so certain of them that you do not feel it's necessary to answer those who question them by demonstrating that you believe them because you have come to know them through their basis in fact and/or reason.

If that's the case, we can end the debate here. There is no point in me trying to get you to apply fact and/or reason to your faith. Neither fact nor reason has any applicability to that kind of faith. (By which I mean the kind of faith held by people who might cite the Nicene Creed as the basis for their belief in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.)

Let me know.if that's what it is, in which case I will respect your faith. Or if that's what it isn't. In which case, I'll continue to respect your reason by addressing the rest of your remarks with mine.
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Postby GM Citizen » Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:52 am

compared2what? wrote:
GM Citizen wrote:
compared2what? wrote:See how your comment addresses 8bit's comment, which was about rape, to which I objected, to which he objected? And how what you said was that his mistake was forgetting that "you MUST always paint the female as the victim, without exception. That is unless it is an abusive lesbian relationship, in which case you should just disregard it"?

That excludes the possibility that his mistake might have been saying something about rape that I might have objected to on grounds other than its failure to paint the female as a victim. Res ipsa loquitur, if you read it from start to finish.

I did not find it reprehensible. I found it unjustified by any reality known to me. Also, I wasn't agitated. I've been meaning to mention that.


It seemed to me that you were jumping on him rather harshly. From my vantage point (outside of your head) I saw it as PC run amok, and chided 8bit accordingly, with a bit of humor.

When you look at the broad issue of rape, there are many facets of it, and as a result, many victims as well. You can have male victims, female victims, male false accusers (often male victims), female false accusers (often male victims).

But, we have been conditioned through nothing if not a concerted campaign of repetitiveness that rape equals female victim/male perpetrator. To think outside that predefined, and limiting box is to run afoul, in a major way, of PC. Those are my beliefs.


I understand that those are your beliefs. The reason that I have come to think of the post in which you outline them as The GMCene Creed is because I have yet to see you assert them as anything other than articles of fath -- ie, you are so certain of them that you do not feel it's necessary to answer those who question them by demonstrating that you believe them because you have come to know them through their basis in fact and/or reason.

If that's the case, we can end the debate here. There is no point in me trying to get you to apply fact and/or reason to your faith. Neither fact nor reason has any applicability to that kind of faith. (By which I mean the kind of faith held by people who might cite the Nicene Creed as the basis for their belief in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.)

Let me know.if that's what it is, in which case I will respect your faith. Or if that's what it isn't. In which case, I'll continue to respect your reason by addressing the rest of your remarks with mine.


My beliefs in this subject are not anything more or less than the sum of my interpretations on what I have read, seen, heard, etc., on the subject. This is my viewpoint, and not some article of faith.

Unlike believers in deities, I don't take anything on faith. On this issue of rape, I look at it across its broad spectrum, and not just through the eye of a stakeholder demographic. How about you?
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Postby AhabsOtherLeg » Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:00 am

OP ED wrote:AOL, (ha!)
I disagree. I think the progression of this thread will eventually come full circle. People will wear themselves out and civil discourse may yet emerge.

I have faith in people. Females and Males alike. This isn't politics, cooler heads may yet prevail!

(though your opinion is almost as bad as GMC's (ha! again!) stupid quote, for your sake, I hope you're kidding, and not just because you could get attacked for it, but also because if it wasn't a joke, it'd make you look ignorant.)

For the record, I hate all of you. You waste too much of my time, and yet I cannot stop. Its like taking crack during Socio class.


I think it already is a civil discourse, compared to what it could be. And yes, my comment was stupid and of course it was a joke. I hadn't seen how serious the thread had got, and I haven't seen the thread this one came from - but was I not right at least in suggesting that a bit of a cooling off period might be wise, however clumsily I did it?

I don't share your faith in either males or females - I have seen nothing to suggest that personal politics is any less vicious or total than the local or state kind. But that's another thread.

And I resent your mocking of my Ha! It could be so much worse. I could start saying Hoo-ha! at the end of every sentence.

Then where would we be, eh?
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Postby barracuda » Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:09 am

compared2what? wrote:
GM Citizen wrote:
barracuda wrote:That is very nearly the stupidest quote on this thread. And that's saying a lot. Man, was that trip really necessary?

Argh. Yikes.


Ok, why was that a stupid quote? got anything of substance on it, or just a snide remark? C'mon....you been trained....use your training now...you can do it.

Was it a stupid quote simply because you might disagree with some of it? Perhaps you didn't like her reference to Pavlov? Or you're a dog-lover, and took offence?


Barracuda, I look forward to seeing you wrestle with this fiendishly clever challenge.

ON EDIT: DAMMIT. I look backward fondly on seeing you wrestle with this fiendishly clever challenge.


"Men have been trained and conditioned by women, not unlike the way Pavlov conditioned his dogs, into becoming their slaves. As compensation for their labours men are given periodic use of a woman's vagina."


Okay, since compared2what? looked forward, who am I to deny her?

GM Citizen, I hate to see what else is on your list of recommended reading. It gives me a glimpse as to why your comments throughout this thread are so medival on the one hand and banal and predictable on the other. Do you wear a wrist watch? 'Cause I bet it's not only self-winding, but wound to the hilt.

I imagine a sexual "escapade" between yourself and Ms. Vilar (or anyone for that matter) would last four minutes on a good day, be as business-like as purchasing a train ticket, and possess all the excitement of watching paint dry. Frankly, the first thing that comes to mind as I re-read your "challenge" is this person has a small penis. I honestly wonder if men with a little less than more actually see the world differently, and especially their relationship with the opposite sex and how they approach that. Really, though, it's sad. If you can possibly give a quote like that any credence, to the point where you'd actually post it anywhere (even a bathroom wall) much less on this thread, and then look up at your computer screen with the expectation that it would start some controversy or elicit a response beyond revulsion... And I just sense the grim determination behind it all, that dammit, you're gonna win or something, you're gonna get your point across, why was that a stupid quote, barracuda? Tell me WHY, you coward - WHY??? And then your response to my utterly endearing picture of Porky from around 1937, which I truly posted out of an inability to conceptualize any sort of meaningful post relative to that dreadful quote... you said, as if not to me, but to compared2what? and the whole board,
arracuda has no fight left it appears. barracuda is down to posting pictures. no argument or debate of substance comes from barracuda, just the typical shoot the messenger tactic.

C'mon, man. Haven't I spent pages of this thread giving you honest, sincere dialogue about my point of view on these issue, did you think I was just talking out of the side of my neck, for laughs? And then you have to say shit like that, no respect, just provocation, man who needs that? No sense of humor. Small dick. No class. See, I didn't want to respond, cause its so easy for me to fall into that mode, and really don't like to, talking shit and all that. And now I did and I am.


Christ, I've had this same boring conversation soooo many times. Let me say it again. Women have been oppressed by men from time immemorial. It is so built into the system... fuck, why do I have to repeat myself?







Listen, have you ever really loved a woman? I mean, loved her, so much it makes you cry, now sitting at your computer typing your bullshit if you just take a moment... just a moment and think of her. Think of how beautiful she was to you, how she was all you ever wanted, how she was everything, the world... And it might not have lasted that way forever, but for that while, think back to that while, that time when she and you were together, and love filled your mind all the day long, and you could still, ust by summoning it up in your head, bring the smell of her to your mind when she wasn't around, and it made you sigh, involuntarily sigh and smile to yourself, no matter where you were or what bad thing had come into your day, you could think that thought and be saved by it, be made stronger by it, be blessed in your heart by that woman... Have you ever had that thing?

If you had, why would you even post a quote like that? It's just totally disrepectful of the both of you. I really hope you become whole someday, I do. 'Cause there's nothing in it for me to have people running around half-made, half-alive, like your Ms. Vilar. Nothing. Until all men are whole, the world will always be half-assed.
The most dangerous traps are the ones you set for yourself. - Phillip Marlowe
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Postby OP ED » Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:11 am

my (ha!) 's btw, weren't intended as mockery of your own.

I was laughing at my internal realization that I was referring to you as AOL and GMC respectively.

maybe this is the sort of thing that only I find amusing.
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Postby compared2what? » Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:12 am

May I politely request that you all try to stay on topic, which is, roughly speaking, gender bias and its legitimacy, though at the moment I am trying to get GM Citizen to answer one straightforward question.

I started it because I said something totally defensible on facts that have been widely available for 35 years on another thread, which was categorized as merely being my wish to enforce a PC standard in which women MUST always be victims. It's a little shocking to me that you all are so seemingly unaware that most women have been repeatedly taught by culture and experience from a very young age that there is a reasonable chance that they are potentially in physical danger for brief periods of time that are likely to be part of their daily routines, and that...this is the truly hilarious part: That's because there's a reasonable chance that they are!

I'm not complaining or whining. Life is what it is. But what does it take away from you to consider that...well, I don't live in fear by any means. I actually live a little too fearlessly.

Nevertheless, the reasonable potential realities of my life are such that without much more feeling than I have when saying "Bless you" after someone sneezes, I mindlessly, automatically, almost not fully consciously consider whether or not I might be at physical risk any time I am alone in any place where I could not easily be seen or heard by other people. That would include: when I go into the basement of my building to do my laundry; when I unlock the street door to my building at night; when I let a plumber into my apartment; when I walk a few unoccupied blocks at night, or in some neighborhoods, during the day, and that I am not exceptional in doing that. Nor am I unreasonable in doing that. It's not, frankly, a very big deal. It's something women do. Women of this board, please confirm that it is ordinary to you to briefly consider whether you might be sexually assaulted in any number of fairly routine circumstances, that it doesn't entail fear or paranoia, but that it does, obviously, color your view of yourself and the world in which you live.

It has no implications for how I feel about men or how I feel about sex. I'm crazy about both of 'em. It's simply one among many ways that women do not experience the same culture they share with men the same way men do. That is not an accusation. It's just a fucking fact. It would be nice if it were acknowledged and considered. But that's not necessary. It's totally up to you. Because I wouldn't want to make you feel bad. And I'm not trying to. Nor am I being competitive. I understand that men also have routine experiences of culture they'd prefer to live without. And I'm not trying to take that away from you.

I don't fucking understand why you would even think that if I say something about what it feels like for a girl, I am negating your reality. I'm not. I'm speaking for mine. Because I am here too. Right here. See? Here. Right. That's me.
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Postby compared2what? » Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:17 am

GM Citizen wrote:
compared2what? wrote:
GM Citizen wrote:
compared2what? wrote:See how your comment addresses 8bit's comment, which was about rape, to which I objected, to which he objected? And how what you said was that his mistake was forgetting that "you MUST always paint the female as the victim, without exception. That is unless it is an abusive lesbian relationship, in which case you should just disregard it"?

That excludes the possibility that his mistake might have been saying something about rape that I might have objected to on grounds other than its failure to paint the female as a victim. Res ipsa loquitur, if you read it from start to finish.

I did not find it reprehensible. I found it unjustified by any reality known to me. Also, I wasn't agitated. I've been meaning to mention that.


It seemed to me that you were jumping on him rather harshly. From my vantage point (outside of your head) I saw it as PC run amok, and chided 8bit accordingly, with a bit of humor.

When you look at the broad issue of rape, there are many facets of it, and as a result, many victims as well. You can have male victims, female victims, male false accusers (often male victims), female false accusers (often male victims).

But, we have been conditioned through nothing if not a concerted campaign of repetitiveness that rape equals female victim/male perpetrator. To think outside that predefined, and limiting box is to run afoul, in a major way, of PC. Those are my beliefs.


I understand that those are your beliefs. The reason that I have come to think of the post in which you outline them as The GMCene Creed is because I have yet to see you assert them as anything other than articles of fath -- ie, you are so certain of them that you do not feel it's necessary to answer those who question them by demonstrating that you believe them because you have come to know them through their basis in fact and/or reason.

If that's the case, we can end the debate here. There is no point in me trying to get you to apply fact and/or reason to your faith. Neither fact nor reason has any applicability to that kind of faith. (By which I mean the kind of faith held by people who might cite the Nicene Creed as the basis for their belief in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.)

Let me know.if that's what it is, in which case I will respect your faith. Or if that's what it isn't. In which case, I'll continue to respect your reason by addressing the rest of your remarks with mine.


My beliefs in this subject are not anything more or less than the sum of my interpretations on what I have read, seen, heard, etc., on the subject. This is my viewpoint, and not some article of faith.

Unlike believers in deities, I don't take anything on faith. On this issue of rape, I look at it across its broad spectrum, and not just through the eye of a stakeholder demographic. How about you?


I look at it based on the pertinent facts on a case by case basis. And I am thoroughly familiar with them. Including male-on-male rape. That means I am familiar with the distinctions among them. For example. Thus, I do not confuse my experience with that of someone else.

ON EDIT: It occurs to me that might not have been clear enough for you. I am well informed on this subject. I do not like to see people in pain, nor do I like to see their experience, or anyone's experience, denied, silenced, or dismissed by someone who doesn't happen to share it. We all suffer. But we do not all suffer the same way. I hope to understand both the suffering and joys of others, thus enriching my own life and theirs, and increasing the sum of human understanding in the world.

It is clear from this thread that most of the posters on it have no idea at all what rape represents to a woman. It is something different -- not better than, not worse than, though it's sure as hell much more freqent than -- what it does to a man. I am trying to explain what that is. So that others might understand it. Not so that I can replace your reality with mine. There's plenty of room for every fucking sufferer on the thread, as well as every celebrator, and every person who is simply bored.

Got that?
Last edited by compared2what? on Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby AhabsOtherLeg » Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:17 am

No worries. I thought hard about the AOL initials meself, and the implication. But it was too good a name not to use.

Anyway, I admit this thread is beyond me, and retire.
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Postby barracuda » Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:22 am

And go ahead, mock me for my shit. I mocked you. Mock me. I don't even care if you do. It just how I feel, so fuck it.
The most dangerous traps are the ones you set for yourself. - Phillip Marlowe
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Postby OP ED » Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:24 am

Barr, that was about the funniest thing I've ever read on this board.
Mean? Yes. Aggressive? Yes. Overly Familiar? Yes. Too Personal? Yes.
Snarky? Yes. Somewhat inappropriate? Yes.
Crude? (oh god) Yes.

but fucking hilarious.

except for the last part. You almost made me cry.

You're an evil, evil man. I praise you.

When I become gay, having been left with no choice once no woman will have me, I'm going to ask you out. And when you turn me down, then I will cry. :cry:

I'll try not to ever call you a gatekeeper (except, y'know, in good clean fun) again.

:arrow: You are now officially "Dweller on the Threshold".

Thank you for making the last 9 pages of nonsense (my own included) and the soreness resulting from my lack of sleep absolutely worthwhile.

93/93
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Postby compared2what? » Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:34 am

GM Citizen wrote:]My beliefs in this subject are not anything more or less than the sum of my interpretations on what I have read, seen, heard, etc., on the subject. This is my viewpoint, and not some article of faith.


Excellent. Could you then please tell me what part of what you have read, seen, heard, etc. made you so certain and has caused you to cling through storm and tempest to the absolute truth that You MUST always paint the female as the victim, without exception. That is unless it is an abusive lesbian relationship, in which case you should just disregard it.

Thanks.
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Postby compared2what? » Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:23 am

And while you're at it. Given that you do not yield an inch on any position that you state, I imagine that what you have seen, heard, read, etc., and the energy you put into interpreting it must have been exhaustive. So could you please also tell me the basis in fact and reason that has led you to conclude so firmly that no evidence shakes your unwavering belief in it for that the problem, as you see it, is as you describe it here:

The problem as I see it is that once/whenever a (new?) source of info is found it is subjected to a rigourous test of "does it hold EVERYTHING near and dear to a leftist's heart" fully intact, while the person/organization shares some info with us. The standard (arguably) items that come to mind quickly are, in no particular order, imo:

- racism (applied selectively, ie., caucasions must never utter anything that can be remotely considered racist)

- religion (chris toard. The baby goes out with the dirty bathwater. We automatically assign motives to them, right or wrong, because after all, rhetorically speaking, if they get one of these things so wrong, how on earth could they have good intentions about something else so totally unrelated?

This assures their data is never held under a critical light, but is automatically dismissed.


Thanks. I am leaving the part below intact as you wrote it, and then, for your convenience, broken it down into a handy list form, with specific questions regarding your basis in fact and reason for believing them.

GM Citizen wrote:And so without watering down this thread with some of the issues listed above, I'll keep to the women-as-victims-only issue.

We have seen by the response to 8bit's post, that some folks are ready to pounce on anything that might digress from the leftist principle that women are victims, and that if a woman was a perpetrator, well hell she was probably provoked and had a good reason. There are numerous studies out there, certainly in the US, Canada, and other "western" nations, that prove that females are not only real perpetrators, but that they hold their own in numbers compared to male perpetrators in terms of violence, assault, etc. If I remember correctly, violence within a lesbian relationship exceeds the rates of violence in hetero relationships, but is quickly dismissed for some reason. The discussion is usually turned by a phrase akin to "yeah, but men commit MORE violence",etc., as if that dismisses lesbian-partner violence.

And then we get to the issue of rape. One of the greatest number of victims of rape are pretty much left without a significant voice. Male victims of rape in prison. Apparently, we just don't care about them as a society. After all, they are criminals, and probably deserve it anyways (note sarcasm).

Kanin noted the high incidence of false rape claims. From what I recall reading about some cases in the US, where a woman was found to have made a false rape claim, the worst she might face is a misdemeanour charge. The guy could have been locked up, beaten, even raped, for many long years. She might get 6 months, and often with a recommendation that she get mental help. Hardly fair, really.

Strauss noted the high levels of violence by women. Yet men do not have shelters to go to, or any viable support system, for the most part, unless possibly if they are gay (local gay community resources).

And then there is divorce, and the tried and true tactic of making false accusations against the father, often such as child molestation, etc.

And forget about the media telling you any truth anytime soon. With the propogation of the "rule of thumb", and "more women are assaulted during the Super Bowl" myths, we will not be getting anything substantive to deal with the overall violence problem, from the media.

By the way, the title of this thread is hardly conducive to decent discussion. Perhaps a better one might have been "Why is it PC to paint the woman as victim almost exclusively?"


* Some folks are ready to pounce on anything that might digress from the leftist principle that women are victims, and that if a woman was a perpetrator, well hell she was probably provoked and had a good reason
.
What is your basis in fact and reason for this tendency on the part of some folks being a significant part of the world in which we live? What folks? How many folks? How was this shown by 8bit's experience?

* There are numerous studies out there, certainly in the US, Canada, and other "western" nations, that prove that females are not only real perpetrators, but that they hold their own in numbers compared to male perpetrators in terms of violence, assault, etc.

What studies?

* If I remember correctly, violence within a lesbian relationship exceeds the rates of violence in hetero relationships, but is quickly dismissed for some reason. The discussion is usually turned by a phrase akin to "yeah, but men commit MORE violence",etc., as if that dismisses lesbian-partner violence.

When, where and by whom is this quickly dismissed and how often? To whom does the alleged dismissal do any harm, other than the lesbians? In what fucking way does acknowledging true statistics about acts of violence committed by men constitute discrimination against men who have not committed acts of violence that is in any way related to what women do or do not do to men and/or each other?

It's a fucking insult to the men who are wrongfully imprisoned not to address the cause of their suffering, obviously. Or to misidentify it. I personally attribute it to the actions of the state, in the form of bad cops, bad courts, and the atrocious hellhole that is our penitentiary system. I base this on those actions overwhelmingly being the cause for their imprisonment, and if you'd like me to cite some sources for that, I'll go get them. But I'm hoping that you're aware how people get arrested, go to trial, and get convicted, and in what number of cases these events are set in motion by women and their insistence on being victims. Which is not a very sizeable number. As you surely already know. Having read, heard and seen stuff about it.

* And then we get to the issue of rape. One of the greatest number of victims of rape are pretty much left without a significant voice. Male victims of rape in prison. Apparently, we just don't care about them as a society. After all, they are criminals, and probably deserve it anyways (note sarcasm).

Duly noted. The plight of especially the indigent defendant is, as I said earlier, one that is close to my heart. I do not forget it. I have worked (without success) to get a new trial for a wrongfully imprisoned man. I'm also very opposed to capital punishment, and publicize the issue in general and the causes of some death row inmates in particular to the best of my ability, which is not as great as it used to be. Still. It's not an issue that's on most people's radars at all, and it's a huge political issue to me, so I do what I can. I myself have never been in prison, but I've visited several on more occasions than I wish I'd had any reason to. Rikers, more than any another. Prison is prison and even getting as far as the visiting room in any I've ever been in is like a living death, uniformly. But I've got to say if I had to be in one of them, I'd rather be in Rikers than the Tombs. Which is the aptly nicknamed Manhattan Detention Complex, I should add, since I don't know whether that's local or general knowledge. It's a fucking nightmare. Between 2001 and 2006 it was formally named the Bernard B. Kerik. Complex, I might as well mention, for its trivia value.

In any event: Yes. This is a horrible problem, and not simply because of rape. In fact, I doubt that most of the imprisoned population would define the tragedy of their lives as primarily rape-related. And I personally, though it is one of my causes, have never put any effort into trying to diminish the enormity of the injustice going on here by working to reduce the instances of male-on-male rape among prisoners. It doesn't strike me as a very efficient way to address it. Or a useful paradigm in which to understand it. However, if you feel otherwise, you feel otherwise. I still don't see how this is related to the actions of women, and look forward to your basis in reason and fact for associating the two issues.

* Kanin noted the high incidence of false rape claims. From what I recall reading about some cases in the US, where a woman was found to have made a false rape claim, the worst she might face is a misdemeanour charge. The guy could have been locked up, beaten, even raped, for many long years. She might get 6 months, and often with a recommendation that she get mental help. Hardly fair, really.

Alright. Now we're talking turkey. How high is the incidence of false rape claims? And how many of the unjustly accused go to prison or trial as a result of them? What percentage of men imprisoned on sexual assault charges are there as a result of false rape claims? Citations please. And I really hope you have some, and that they're substantial. Because otherwise, I have to agree with Occult Means Hidden. One of your reason-and-fact based beliefs would appear to be a wholly or partially imaginary scenario.

* Strauss noted the high levels of violence by women. Yet men do not have shelters to go to, or any viable support system, for the most part, unless possibly if they are gay (local gay community resources).

How high? How large a sample? Any demographic indicators? What kind of violence? Is there any data showing that large numbers of men have no refuge from abusive homes? By the way, women's shelters are not exactly spas. Some of them are not a whole lot better than prison.

* And then there is divorce, and the tried and true tactic of making false accusations against the father, often such as child molestation, etc.

Dude, there's a whole world of hell in that "etc." There is divorce. You are so right. Please tell me your rational and factual basis for believing that men falsely accused of child molestation by the women who are divorcing them is a pressing and urgent social issue, to which not enough attention is devoted in the form of frequent broadcast television news segments to truly represent awareness of the greater size and severity of the problem that divorce represents to men than it does to women.

* And forget about the media telling you any truth anytime soon. With the propogation of the "rule of thumb", and "more women are assaulted during the Super Bowl" myths, we will not be getting anything substantive to deal with the overall violence problem, from the media.

I don't think I've ever heard that Super Bowl myth. I might have, and forgotten it, because I do actually care about violent crimes every day of the year, and am therefore not in need of a holiday reminder. On the truth-from-media point in a larger sense, though: No argument here.

* By the way, the title of this thread is hardly conducive to decent discussion. Perhaps a better one might have been "Why is it PC to paint the woman as victim almost exclusively?"

Start your own thread. I'm still not out to get you. And I'm also not agitated. But you are not a very friendly or cooperative poster yourself. If you were gracious to me, I would be much more inclined to continue being gracious to you. FYI..

As it stands, you've made a lot of claims, and offered very little in support of them. You indicate that these claims are evils attributable to women. And you are unmoved by any evidence concerning any problem faced by women. I, on the other hand, am, believe it or not, interested in many more injustices than sexist injustices. As demonstrated in part on this thread, but also by the entire scope of issues I address on a regular basis on these boards. I do occasionally speak for groups of which I am a member. And feminism is important to me. But it's not the sole lens through which I view all things. It's not even on my top three most-urgent-major-injustices-happening-right-now list. I completely fucking resent your smugness, your rigidity and your refusal to hear my point of view. I listened to yours as openly as I could. And though we share some common ground in terms of injustices about which we care very much, your understanding of those is just as offensive to me as your understanding (or failure of understanding) wrt male-on-female rape. Especially that prison thing. Shame on you for making that a rape issue. Do you have any idea at all how badly brutalized men are by the justice and penitentiary system and in what ways?

Anyway. You've been a totally unaccommodating, obstructive jerk for the length of this thread, and if you have any concern for anything other than the rightness of your own opinion, I'd be very happy to know something good of you. I would far prefer to have comrades than jerks with whom to discuss issues of mutual interest. So please let me know what makes you so goddamn sure of yourself and your understanding of the world's problems that it overshadows and ought to preempt any discussion of what rape means to women in the culture you and I share. I'm eager to hear it.
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Postby Avalon » Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:08 am

compared2what? wrote:Women of this board, please confirm that it is ordinary to you to briefly consider whether you might be sexually assaulted in any number of fairly routine circumstances, that it doesn't entail fear or paranoia, but that it does, obviously, color your view of yourself and the world in which you live.


I'll back you up on that.

Because of where I live it's less of an issue for me in my daily life than it would be if I lived in a more urban area. While part of it is now better employed in knowing what situations to avoid to begin with, when I was younger I had an occasion to pull my knife out of its sheath as a warning to a man who had faulty notions about boundaries.

But yes, that vigilance and awareness is ordinary for me. It also includes keeping an eye out for children, other women, and vulnerable men in my community or vicinity.
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Postby American Dream » Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:10 am

http://paulkivel.com/articles/sexismand ... remacy.pdf

Are You Challenging Sexism and Male Supremacy?
by Paul Kivel



There have been many forms of patriarchal societies over the
ages. Currently in the U.S., patriarchy takes the form of sexism and
male supremacy. By that I mean that we currently live within the
pervasive, systematic, everyday system of exploitation,
marginalization, objectification and violence directed towards girls
and women (sexism), and the pervasive, systematic, everyday
system of benefits, power, prestige, inclusion, and privileges
afforded to men (male supremacy). Of course, our ruling class and
power elite also use capitalism, racism, heterosexism, and other
forms of exploitation and violence to maintain their power.

I am not going to document the massive economic exploitation of
women’s paid and unpaid work, the objectification and
exploitation of women’s bodies, the systematic discrimination
women face in wages, benefits, housing, health care,
transportation, political representation, and other essential areas of
life. These forms of exploitation, objectification, and violence,
compounded by race, class, religion, immigration status, sexual
orientation, and disability, are massively documented and visible to
anyone who has an open mind. A few examples should suffice.

Women make, on average, approximately three-fourths of what
men make a lifetime. (White women make somewhat more than
three-quarters, and women of color make a lot less). That means
that if a man makes $40,000 and a woman makes $30,000 a year
she will end up with hundreds of thousands of dollars less than he
will. The higher the income level the more dramatic the difference.
Women, on average, perform one entire hour more a day of unpaid
housework, childcare, and care of others than men do, every day of
the year.

Men will sexually assault one out of every four women over a
lifetime and at least 3-4 million men a year batter their partners. In
addition, men will sexually harass 50-80% of women who work
(most women) and almost every woman experiences fear and harassment on the street at some time in her life. This is a form of
control and systematic terrorism of the entire female population
but child sexual assault, domestic violence, elder abuse, sexual
assault and sexual harassment are still seen as women’s issues and
are rarely on social justice agendas.

Visible, public images of women being raped, assaulted, demeaned
and abused are everywhere as unavoidable, hate-filled, and
constant reminders to women that they are vulnerable to violence
from men, and constant messages to boys and men (through
advertising, videogames, movies, TV, pornography and
prostitution) that they have the right to use women for their sexual
gratification.

Political issues, natural events, and everyday life are not
commonly analyzed through a gender lens. Therefore the impact
on women of various groups is not visible, does not guide our
analysis and perpetuates the entire system of exploitation. For
example, three-quarters to four-fifths of the people killed by the
’04 Tsunami were women of color. The majority of those left
behind in New Orleans were poor women of color. The impact of
environmental exploitation, degradation, and dumping falls
substantially on women, particularly on women of color. Etc.

As a man, and of course as a white, able-bodied, straight man of
financial security, my life floats on a sea of invisible labor
performed by women, primarily women of color in this country
and around the world.

• My clothes are made primarily by women of color
under exploitive circumstances.

• My food is grown, harvested, processed, and often
cooked primarily by women of color under exploitive
circumstances.

• My children have been cared for primarily by women
child care workers, teachers, recreation program
workers, and babysitters who make much less than
me for their work.

• Sick or infirm members of my family have been cared
for by women in hospitals, nursing homes, hospices
and other care facilities.

• The tedious work of organizing, providing food for,
staffing, publicizing and cleaning up after most of the
shows, family celebrations, concerts, meetings, and
public events I attend is been done primarily by
women.

• Almost all of the electronics goods I use, including
cell phones, computers, TVs, DVDs, cameras, and
microwave ovens are made by women of color under
exploitive circumstances.



It is political that this is not widely acknowledged and talked
about. It is political that when issues of sexism and male
supremacy are raised they are usually denied or minimized. It is
political that women are commonly thought to have achieved great
success in our society and that we have eliminated most barriers to
gender equity. It is political that we (particularly men) don’t use a
gender lens all day, everyday, to see and understand the world.
I want to offer some simple suggestions for putting these issues on
a social justice agenda.

Use a gender lens—as well as economic, racial and other
lens—all of the time. Constantly ask yourself “What is the
difference that gender makes in this situation?”
Always ask, “Where are the women—why aren’t they in
leadership?” “Where are the other women—which groups of
women are not at the table?

Women constitute over half the population. Notice and respond
when they do not have representation, leadership, and power.

Interpersonal violence is a social justice issue. Unless each of us
and our communities address and heal from the interpersonal
violence that tears our lives apart we will not be able to work
together, nor to foster the full, creative participation of vast
numbers of people, nor will we be able to meet their needs for
safety, healing, liberation, and justice.

Make sure that women’s contributions are recognized and
honored.
Notice and draw attention to the unpaid and
unrecognized work that women do to support our daily lives, to
sustain those in need, and to make things happen.

Interrupt male cultures of power that operate to exclude,
marginalize, or disempower women. Notice how men resist
accepting responsibility for male privilege and male supremacy
and speak out.

Become more knowledgeable
about women’s cultures, women
histories, women’s contributions, and women’s lives.

Look to progressive women and women’s organizations for
leadership.

Strategize
about who you can organize with to address issues of
sexism and male supremacy.

Identify where you have work to do to build and sustain intimate,
family, and community relationships built on complete respect,
consent, and mutuality.


Identify your next steps
in challenging sexism and male
supremacy.
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Postby blanc » Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:13 am

absolutely.
Who was it who said a man fears that a woman might laugh at him, a woman fears that a man might kill her?
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