Pope to resign (first in 600 years)

Moderators: Elvis, DrVolin, Jeff

Re: Pope to resign (first in 600 years)

Postby JackRiddler » Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:24 pm

Here's a story I wrote, in another life, about the high wisdom of dessicated patriarchs who uphold ignorance as strength:

Vintage Nineties Jack 'The Hammer' Riddler wrote:
Death of a Major Religious Figure

(Based on a True Story)

Domini, dominus, domini, domino, dominuts... Domino? What was that chanting? It made no sense. Just the drip-drip of his terminal sustenance echoing through the tube. Today they had to pluck another vein for it, new bruises, the needle's prick arriving as though from another man. He thought he heard talk about having revived him once already. All life is sacred.

Voices, so many shadows around the bed. It wouldn't be long now.

Where is this, what is this? A row of microphones? He looks over the edge of a high podium. A stadium? A rumble, a roar. Thousands, tens of thousands, seated, standing, on the field, a loud murmur, orderly, arrayed. High voices, boys, girls, Sunday skirts and shirts. So many, 17 years old, younger. Where is this? When was this? Can't remember. There have been so many stadiums. Marching bands, uniformed prominences at the airports, the ground kiss, flashbulbs, parades in the glass van, flags and banners. Stadiums. Everything as it always was.

More uniforms here, black and trim. Soldiers, police, officials... teachers? Amid the children, they are a nervous system with sharp corners, rows of them in every section running back towards a core of two hundred men. Stiffly at attention, they surround his entourage, the podium, himself.

The murmur has fallen. All are expectant. Is he in the middle of a speech? They're waiting for him. They look to him, a hundred thousand eyes above red scarves. Ten thousand shiny boots.

He speaks. It startles him, his own stentorian force, the lack of hesitation. Slow, clear words:

"Do you reject the worldy sin of drugs?" Is he speaking in Spanish?

"Yes!" comes a roar from thousands of throats, his energy surging with it. He is here, he is really here! Where is this, South America? No matter. The wave has crested, the next crest is building. The timing is all:

"Do you reject the worldly sin of materialism?"

"Yes!" they roar again, this time truly in unison. The sound seems to fill his lungs.

Now for the crowning trick. Threes, threes, Q's and A's always come in threes:

"Do you reject the worldly sin of sex?"

There is a moment, then fifty thousand lips intone the soft, unmistakeable answer:

"No..."

All goes black. He lifts his lids and is as flat and helpless as ever. He is failing to draw breath. A bigger shadow stands at the foot of the bed. A man he recognizes. It's the Pope. The Pope in long robes. The new pope, in all his embroidery. Standing, with a staff and a tall hat, looking at him. A familiar face.

But this is not a cardinal. I know this man, he thinks.

Then he realizes: Gorbachev.

Gorbachev is the new pope!

The last pope.

A long beep fills the room.


The "true story" part is that the wording of the three questions and the answers of the young people in the stadium were taken verbatim from a contemporary report of Karel Wojtyla's visit to the Philippines, which however I cannot just now find online.

A search for "Gorbachev is the new pope" gets exactly one hit:


Critics claim new Pope was part of Argentinean cover-up during junta reign
Damning interview was released hours before Papal election


Read more: http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Critic ... z2NdPGEFav
Follow us: @IrishCentral on Twitter | IrishCentral on Facebook

SNIP

The claims were made in the wake of the publication of an interview with Argentina’s former military dictator Jorge Videla.

The interview, conducted in 2010, were only published on Sunday, hours before Archbishop of Buenos Aires Jorge Mario Bergoglio was elected Pope in Rome.

In the interview, Videla claims that he kept Argentina’s Catholic hierarchy informed about his regime’s policy of ‘disappearing’ political opponents.

He also told El Sur magazine that that the country’s Catholic leaders, including the new Pope claimhis critics, offered advice on how to ‘manage’ the policy.

Videla said he had ‘many conversations with Argentina’s then primate Cardinal Primatesta, about his regime’s dirty war against left-wing activists.

He claimed there were also conversations with other leading bishops from Argentina’s Episcopal conference as well as with the country’s papal nuncio at the time, Pio Laghi.

Videla said: “They advised us about the manner in which to deal with the situation.

“In certain cases church authorities offered their good offices and undertook to inform families looking for disappeared relatives to desist from their searches, but only if they were certain the families would not use the information to denounce the junta.

“In the case of families that it was certain would not make political use of the information, they told them not to look any more for their child because he was dead.”

Videla added: “The church understood well and also assumed the risks of such involvement.”

SNIP

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Critic ... 63361.html


.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

TopSecret WallSt. Iraq & more
User avatar
JackRiddler
 
Posts: 16007
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:59 pm
Location: New York City
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Pope to resign (first in 600 years)

Postby FourthBase » Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:16 pm

JackRiddler wrote:4B, I'd be happy to take an 0.67% yield on my 150 notional :partyhat, except surely there are far higher returns available in very conservative bonds.

The plausibility is not really the question. The past has left its trails. They're bouncing all around us, in every direction. Even assuming the capacity to detect these - something that might be discoverable - the idea remains absurd that someone in the 1950s developed instrumentation that could resolve such trails into decipherable visuals of specific happenings at exact times, and re-play these in real time like a video. And then also match the audio? Using what, EM trails generated by the motion of the air caused by sound? Allowing the first, semi-plausible absurdity - the trails are detectable and carrying sufficient information to track it back in time - it will take AI billions of times greater than the human mind and near-infinite trial and error to gain the resolution to see local events that are, in fact, light years away (given furthermore that the earth moves, and the solar system moves, and the galaxy moves). You can't just set the dial to 1963, move a cursor around Dealey Plaza and finally capture an HD video of The Comedian firing from the sewer. It's so crazy that it makes the idea of a remote viewing shortcut to some universal mind that will allow the same chronovision seem like a trifle. But to do it with a cathode ray machine hooked to a TV screen and a speaker? Let's watch the Crucifixion! It is to laugh. Good science fiction.


Absurd. You are right. 1500-to-1, then? 15000? At which point do you refuse the bet? :)
“Joy is a current of energy in your body, like chlorophyll or sunlight,
that fills you up and makes you naturally want to do your best.” - Bill Russell
User avatar
FourthBase
 
Posts: 7057
Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 4:41 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Pope to resign (first in 600 years)

Postby JackRiddler » Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:23 pm

This is a bet I'd love to lose, but I'm guaranteed to win - I'd go to 15 billion.

Hell, here's the 150 to your 1:

:partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat
:partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat
:partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat
:partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat
:partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat
:partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat
:partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat
:partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat
:partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat
:partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat
:partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat
:partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat
:partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat
:partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat
:partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

TopSecret WallSt. Iraq & more
User avatar
JackRiddler
 
Posts: 16007
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:59 pm
Location: New York City
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Pope to resign (first in 600 years)

Postby justdrew » Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:36 pm

fyi, this is making the rounds...

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/03/15/book-written-by-francis-reveals-radical-pope-in-the-making/

In his own words, Pope Francis comes over as a clever, thoughtful and skilful mixture of social conservative and radical progressive who preaches zero tolerance of pederast priests but whose own behaviour during the terror of Argentina’s military juntas remains decidedly blurred.

In his latest book, On Earth and Heaven, the man then known as Jorge Bergoglio, discusses the divine and the mundane with the prominent Jewish rabbi Abraham Skorka in a series of conversations published in 2010.

Bergoglio appears as a man with a profound social conscience, expressing admiration of some atheist socialists and professing a genuine belief in interfaith dialogue – to the extent that some radical Catholics accuse him of heresy.

He is critical of those who covered up the paedophile scandal that has done so much damage to the church he now leads.

“The idea that celibacy produces paedophiles can be forgotten,” he says. “If a priest is a paedophile, he is so before he becomes a priest. But when this happens you must never look away. You cannot be in a position of power and use it to destroy the life of another person.”

Bergoglio says he has never had to deal with such a case, but when a bishop asked what he should do, he told him the priest should be sacked and tried, that putting the church’s reputation first was a mistake.

“I think that is the solution that was once proposed in the United States; of switching them to other parishes,” he says. “That is stupid, because the priest continues to carry the problem in his backpack.” The only answer to the problem, he adds, is zero tolerance.

The church, he says, has been through worse times. “There have been corrupt periods. There were very difficult periods, but the religion revived itself.”

He also recognises that the church must move with the times and be in constant transformation. “If, throughout history, the church has changed so much, I do not see why we should not adapt it to the culture of the [our] time,” he says.

But he sticks to Catholic dogma on key issues, writing off gay marriage as “an anthropological reverse”.

Abortion is a scientific problem that is separate “from any religious concept”.

“Preventing the development of a being that already has the genetic code of a human being is not ethical,” he says.

Some of his harshest words are for ultra-conservatives who put obedience of church rules above everything else. “There are sectors within the religions that are so prescriptive that they forget the human side,” he says.

That may explain why, according to a leaked cardinal’s diary from the 2005 papal conclave, he allegedly once criticised anti-condom zealots as wanting to “stick the whole world inside a condom”.

But it may also be the result of criticism he received for once joining a stadium full of protestant evangelists – seen by some Catholics as the biggest threat to their supremacy in Latin America – in their prayers.

“The following week a magazine produced the headline: ‘Archbishopric of Buenos Aires, an empty chair. The archbishop has committed the crime of apostasy’,” he complains.

The allegations by journalist Horacio Verbitsky, who accuses him of covering up the church’s connivance with the silencing of the disappearance, torture and murder of political opponents, are dismissed with a reference to another book of interviews in which he gives his explanation.

“The horrors committed under the military governments were revealed only drip-by-drip, but for me they are still one of the worst blights on this country,” says Bergoglio, suggesting that he himself only slowly became aware of the abuses.

He expresses his admiration for the atheist socialists who helped bring social justice to Argentina, but recognises that some socialists end up leaving the church. “Generally it is because they have conflicts with the church structure, with the way of life of some believers who, instead of being a bridge, become a wall.”

And he warns against a globalisation that does not respect cultures. “The kind of globalisation that makes things uniform is essentially imperialist,” he says, adding that cultural diversity must be conserved. “At the end it becomes a way of enslaving people.”

And he reveals what he most admires about Saint Francis of Assisi, from whom he would later take his papal name.

“He brought to Christianity an idea of poverty against the luxury, pride, vanity of the civil and ecclesiastical powers of the time,” he says. “He changed history.”

But he refuses to separate charity from religion – and even warns the church against becoming a simple NGO.

And the man who now leads 1.2 billion Roman Catholics across the world has a clear idea of leadership. “A religious leader can be strong, and very firm, but without being aggressive,” he says. “Whoever leads should be like those who serve. When he stops serving he becomes a mere manager, a representative of an NGO.”

© Guardian News and Media 2013
By 1964 there were 1.5 million mobile phone users in the US
User avatar
justdrew
 
Posts: 11966
Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 7:57 pm
Location: unknown
Blog: View Blog (11)

Re: Pope to resign (first in 600 years)

Postby seemslikeadream » Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:50 pm

Sting w/ Peter Gabriel - They dance alone - Argentina ´88


President Pinera of Chile Turns Down Plea from the Catholic Church
Published at 3:27 pm EST, July 25, 2010
The Roman Catholic Church was seeking pardons for people who committed crimes during military rule as members of the armed forces.
The Chilean Bishops Conference had pleaded with Mr. Pinera to award clemency to inmates who had already served long prison sentences and had shown repentance. Pinera rejects the idea of pardons for serious offenses such as murder and crimes against humanity. More than 3000 civilians were killed in Chile by the military between 1973 and 1990 under the rule of Augusto Pinochet.


Pinochet's men in the Vatican,
By Juan-José Tamayo-Acosta

Since seizing power in Chile with the coup d'état against President Salvador Allende, General Pinochet has tirelessly sought the support of the Vatican for his military regime, claiming as credentials his Catholic faith and his crusade against Marxism, in complete harmony with John Paul II, who is also an anti-Marxist. Whilst the Archbishop of Santiago (Chile), cardinal Silva Enríquez, was denouncing Pinochet's attack on human rights - including the right to life - through the Vicaría de Solidaridad (Vicariate of Solidarity), the Vatican legitimated the dictator's actions, above all through the Nunciature (Vatican's Embassy).

After the setback with the plebiscite of October 1988, which forced him to give up power, Pinochet doubled his efforts in order to ensure the backing of the Vatican, confident that it would speak out in his defence should he be prosecuted. And his shadow extended to the Roman Curia, where some of the positions of highest responsibility are occupied by ecclesiastical personalities that are sympathetic to him.
We can look first, at Cardinal Angello Sodano, Papal Nuncio (Vatican's Ambassador) in Chile during Pinochet's dictatorship, and with whom he maintained a close friendship, based on political affinities. He arranged the visit of John Paul II to Chile in 1987, and was behind each of the Pope's gestures of legitimisation towards the dictator. Years later, Sodano replaced Cardinal Casaroli as Vatican's secretary of state, a position that he currently occupies. Although this position is "second-in-command" in terms of the Vatican's hierarchy, in practice he acts like number one. To mark Pinochet's golden wedding anniversary, he sent the couple a personal letter of congratulation, full of praise. After meeting in Castelgandolfo with the Chilean Vice-Minister for Foreign Affairs, in November 1998, Sodano wrote to the British government, asking that mercy be shown towards his friend the general, citing humanitarian reasons, reconciliation between Chileans, and, ultimately, the sovereignty of the Chilean State.



Cardinal Angello Sodano


At the head of the Roman Congregation for the Divine Cult and the Sacraments is another admirer of Pinochet: the Chilean Cardinal Jorge Medina, who was Archbishop of Valaparaíso, Chile's chief port and the birthplace of Salvador Allende. He is a bitter and self-confessed enemy of Liberation Theology, which he has persecuted with exceptional harshness. He has been quite prepared to admit publicly that the Vatican has been working to avoid Pinochet's prosecution and for his prompt return to Chile. Proof enough of his complete disregard for democracy and his (at least indirect) legitimisation of the dictatorship is his declaration of August 3rd, 1990: "Democracy does not automatically mean that God would want it to be put into practice." In his post as head of the aforementioned important Vatican's Congregation, he can carry out a very dangerous task: that of putting the rich world of Christian symbolism at the disposal of causes that attack liberty.

Another powerful man in the Vatican is the Colombian cardinal Alfonso López Trujillo, who was secretary and then president, of the Latin-American Episcopal Conference (LEC) during the 70s and 80s, a staunch enemy, like Medina, of Liberation Theology, and a persecutor of its main proponents. In this regard I will use, if I may, a personal anecdote. Whilst López Trujillo was Archbishop of Medellín, he banned the distribution and sale of my book Understanding Liberation Theology in all the Catholic libraries of the archdiocese. His presidency of LEC, which coincided with the advance of military dictatorships throughout Latin America, was not exactly characterised by its prophetic denunciation of them. At the height of these conflicts, he demonstrated his affinity with the CIA in his efforts to silence popular demands and the revolutionary spirit of the freedom movements. He currently presides in the Vatican over the Pontifical Council for the Family, which is known for its hostile attitude to the Second Vatican Council regarding matters like contraception and parenthood.

This Who's Who of the Vatican should not lose sight of another character who has played a key role in the religious legitimisation of dictatorships: the Italian Cardinal Pio Laghi, who was absolutely committed to helping the Argentinian military regime when he was the head of the Apostolic Nunciature in Buenos Aires. Neither he nor the Argentinian bishops spoke out for the murdered and missing, or denounced the horrendous crimes against the children who were literally torn away from their parents. The Argentinian church actively collaborated with the repression through the military chaplains. Meanwhile, the assassination of Monseñor Angelelli, a bishop and defender of human rights, did not elicit condemnation from his brothers in the episcopate. Las Madres de la Plaza de Mayo (the group of mothers and widows whose husbands and children were 'disappeared' during the regime) have appealed to the Italian judicial system to accuse Cardinal Laghi of complicity with the military dictatorship. But their accusation is doomed to fail, because Laghi is currently president of the Holy Congregation for Catholic Education and enjoys immunity under the Letran Accords.

In Spain, Monseñor Asenjo, Secretary-General of the Episcopal Conference, has added his voice to those of his superiors in the Vatican, asserting, against all logic, that to prosecute Pinochet would hinder the process of reconciliation amongst Chileans. It should not come as a surprise if these statements help him to move up a rung or two in the ecclesiastical hierarchy.

It is possible that these court counsellors convinced the Pope that Pinochet is an exemplary Christian; his family, a model "blessed family"; his crusade against Communism, a service to the Catholic church; and his coup d'état, an act of God's will in order to re-establish the "Christian social order" which had been upset by the Marxist Salvador Allende. Or, maybe it has not been necessary to convince him of the merits of the dictator, because the Pope knew them well, as he showed with his unequivocal gestures of praise for the General during his visit to Chile. One such gesture was personally administering communion to Pinochet in acknowledgement of his complete religious rectitude. Another was stepping out onto the balcony of the Moneda Palace with the General to greet a crowd that mixed "hoorays" for the Pope with shouts of acclaim for the dictator.

The strategy that the Vatican has followed with regards to Pinochet seems to me both ethically and evangelically unjustifiable. Firstly, the tyrant is turned into the victim. With that cunning move, the victims are once again sacrificed in the memory of the people. Secondly, his immunity is defended by claiming that at the time these crimes were committed, he was a Head of State. With that, his most horrendous crimes against humanity are legitimated. Thirdly, there is an appeal for mercy on humanitarian grounds, forgetting the inhumane actions of the dictator against his people. Finally, the tyrant remains free without even being taken to court, and gloats over his victims. All this, with divine help, mediated by the Vatican. In short, one dictatorship supports and legitimates another one. And that, in the case of the Catholic Church, seems to me to be anti-democratic, anti-evangelical, anti-human, and anti-divine.

Juan-José Tamayo-Acosta is a theologian.
Translated from the Spanish by Remember Chile


Vatican Defends Pope’s Conduct in 1970s Crackdown
By DANIEL J. WAKIN, ALAN COWELL and GAIA PIANIGIANI
Published: March 15, 2013

VATICAN CITY — For the first time since the election of Pope Francis two days ago, the Vatican on Friday formally defended him from accusations that, decades ago, in the so-called Dirty War in his home country of Argentina, he knew about serious human rights abuses but failed to do enough to halt them.

The Rev. Federico Lombardi, the Vatican spokesman, said there had “never been a credible accusation against him” relating to the period in the 1970s when he was the superior of the Jesuit order in Argentina.

Indeed, “there have been many declarations of how much he did for many people to protect them from the military dictatorship,” Father Lombardi said in a statement at a news conference.

“The accusations belong to the use of a historical-social analysis of facts for many years by the anticlerical left to attack the church and must be rejected decisively.”

Pope Francis, the former Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio of Buenos Aires, was elected by fellow cardinals on Wednesday and much of his behavior since then has seemed to indicate a shift of tone at the Vatican to a more humble and frugal approach.

When he addressed cardinals on Friday, for instance, he spoke frequently without notes, addressing them as “Brother Cardinals” rather than as the more usual “Lord Cardinals” and the Vatican press office highlighted other shows of modesty and lack of formality since his election.

But the question of his past has never been far below the surface, rekindling accusations relating to a conflict in which as many as 30,000 people were disappeared, tortured or killed by the dictatorship.

At the news conference on Friday, Father Lombardi repeated assertions by a prominent human rights campaigner that there had been “no compromise by Cardinal Bergoglio with the dictatorship.”

The debate has simmered in Argentina, with journalists there publishing articles and books that appear to contradict Cardinal Bergoglio’s account of his actions. These accounts draw not only on documents from the period, but also on statements by priests and lay workers who clashed with Cardinal Bergoglio.

After the church had denied for years any involvement with the dictatorship, he testified in 2010 that he had met secretly with Gen. Jorge Videla, the former head of the military junta, and Adm. Emilio Massera, the commander of the navy, to ask for the release of two kidnapped priests. The following year, prosecutors called him to the witness stand to testify on the military junta’s systematic kidnapping of children, a subject he was also accused of knowing about but failing to prevent.

In a long interview published by an Argentine newspaper in 2010, Francis — then still a cardinal — said that he had helped hide people being sought for arrest or disappearance by the military because of their political views, had helped others leave Argentina and had lobbied the country’s military rulers directly for the release and protection of others.

The renewed discussion of the case intruded into a day when Francis earlier offered warm praise on Friday to his predecessor, Benedict XVI, saying that his nearly eight years as leader of the world’s 1.2 billion Roman Catholics had “lit a flame in the depths of our hearts.”

Speaking to the church’s cardinals, he urged them to persevere and find ways to spread word of their faith around the world.

“Let us not give in to pessimism, to that bitterness that the devil offers us every day,” he said. But he offered no direct allusion to the myriad challenges facing the Vatican from a series of sexual abuse, financial and other scandals that swamped much of Benedict’s papacy.

According to the officials, Francis frequently extemporizes, making it more difficult for the papal press office to deliver texts of addresses like Friday’s.

“That’s the cost of having such spontaneity,” said Rev. Thomas Rosica, a Vatican spokesman.

But there was one clearly unchoreographed moment. Francis, 76, stumbled briefly as he greeted the dean of the College of Cardinals, Angelo Sodano, but swiftly recovered.

The pope also sent a message on Friday to Rome’s chief rabbi, saying he wished to pursue closer ties between Catholics and Jews.

“I hope very much to be able to contribute to the progress in relations between Jews and Catholics” since the Second Vatican Council in the early 1960s, the pope said in a message to the rabbi, Riccardo di Segni.

Francis is the first non-European pope for over 1,200 years and the first from the Americas. In a further display of his embrace of the poor, Vatican officials said on Friday that Francis had urged bishops and the faithful in Argentina not to spend money on a long journey to attend his formal inauguration next Tuesday but to make a donation to the poor.

In his first audience with the cardinals, Francis told them that Benedict’s papacy and teachings had “enriched and invigorated” the Catholic Church and had “lit a flame in the depths of our hearts that will continue to burn because it is fueled by his prayers that will support the church on its missionary path.”

Vatican officials said the new pope planned at some stage to visit Benedict at the papal summer retreat at Castel Gandolfo outside Rome, where he is living while an apartment is made ready for him at the Vatican. In his retirement, Benedict has said, he plans to live “hidden to the world.”

Last month, Benedict became the first pope in six centuries to resign, citing failing powers and old age and precipitating a scramble for the succession in which Francis was not widely seen as being among the front-runners. Sometimes speaking without notes, Francis observed Friday that many of the cardinals were of advanced age, and he told them: “Let us give this wisdom to young people; like good wine, it becomes better with age. Let us give to young people the wisdom of life.”

After his remarks, Francis greeted the cardinals one by one, shaking their hands and hugging some. He also accepted letters and presents from them, including a yellow bracelet that he immediately wore on his right wrist.


Argentina’s Dapper State Terrorist
March 15, 2013
From the Archive: As Argentina’s Dirty War killed some 30,000 people, including 150 Catholic priests, dictator Jorge Rafael Videla kept up good relations with Jorge Bergoglio, now Pope Francis, who admits the Church should have done more given the horrors, as described by Marta Gurvich in 1998.

By Marta Gurvich (Originally published Aug. 19, 1998)

Former Argentine president Jorge Rafael Videla, the dapper dictator who launched the so-called Dirty War in 1976, was arrested on June 9, 1998, for a particularly bizarre crime of state, one that rips at the heart of human relations.

Videla, known for his English-tailored suits and his ruthless counterinsurgency theories, stands accused of permitting — and concealing — a scheme to harvest infants from pregnant women who were kept alive in military prisons only long enough to give birth.


Argentine dictator Jorge Raphael Videla in 1976.
According to the charges, the babies were taken from the new mothers, sometimes by late-night Caesarean sections, and then distributed to military families or shipped to orphanages. After the babies were pulled away, the mothers were removed to another site for their executions.

Yet, after Videla’s arrest in 1998, Argentina was engulfed in a legal debate over whether Videla could be judged a second time for these grotesque kidnappings. After democracy was restored in Argentina, Videla was among the generals convicted of human rights crimes, including “disappearances,” tortures, murders and kidnappings.

In 1985, Videla was sentenced to life imprisonment at the military prison of Magdalena. But, on Dec. 29, 1990, amid rumblings of another possible military coup, President Carlos Menem pardoned Videla and other convicted generals. Many politicians considered the pardons a pragmatic decision of national reconciliation that sought to shut the door on the dark history of the so-called Dirty War when the military slaughtered as many as 30,000 Argentineans.

Relatives of the victims, however, continued to uncover evidence that children taken from their mothers’ wombs sometimes were being raised as the adopted children of their mothers’ murderers. For 15 years, a group called Grandmothers of the Plaza de Mayo demanded the return of these kidnapped children, estimated to number as many as 500.

After years of detective work, the Grandmothers documented the identities of 256 missing babies. Of those, however, only 56 children were ever located and seven of them had died. Aided by breakthroughs in genetic testing, the Grandmothers succeeded in returning 31 children to their biological families. Thirteen were raised jointly by their adoptive and biological families and the remaining cases bogged down in court custody battles.

The Baby Harvest

But the baby kidnappings gained a new focus in 1997 with developments in the case of Silvia Quintela, a leftist doctor who attended to the sick in shanty towns around Buenos Aires. On Jan. 17, 1977, Quintela was abducted off a Buenos Aires street by military authorities because of her political leanings. At the time, Quintela and her agronomist husband Abel Madariaga were expecting their first child.

According to witnesses who later testified before a government truth commission, Quintela was held at a military base called Campo de Mayo, where she gave birth to a baby boy. As in similar cases, the infant then was separated from the mother. What happened to the boy is still not clear, but Quintela reportedly was transferred to a nearby airfield.

There, victims were stripped naked, shackled in groups and dragged aboard military planes. The planes then flew out over the Rio de la Plata or the Atlantic Ocean, where soldiers pushed the victims out of the planes and into the water to drown.

After democracy was restored in 1983, Madariaga, who had fled into exile in Sweden, returned to Argentina and searched for his wife. He learned about her death and the birth of his son. Madariaga came to suspect that a military doctor, Norberto Atilio Bianco, had kidnapped the boy. Bianco had overseen Caesarean sections performed on captured women, according to witnesses. He then allegedly drove the new mothers to the airport.

In 1987, Madariaga demanded DNA testing of Bianco’s two children, a boy named Pablo and a girl named Carolina, both of whom were suspected children of disappeared women. Madariaga thought Pablo might be his son. But Bianco and his wife, Susana Wehrli, fled Argentina to Paraguay, where they resettled with the two children. Argentine judge Roberto Marquevich sought the Biancos’ extradition, but Paraguay balked for 10 years.

Finally, faced with demands from the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights, Paraguay relented. Bianco and Wehrli were returned to face kidnapping charges. But the two children — now young adults with small children of their own — refused to return to Argentina or submit to DNA testing.

Though realizing they were adopted, Pablo and Carolina did not want to know about the fate of their real mothers and did not want to jeopardize the middle-class lives they had enjoyed in the Bianco household. [For more details about this case, see “Baby-Snatching: Argentina’s Dirty War Secret.”]

As an offshoot of the Bianco case, Judge Marquevich ordered the arrest of Videla. The judge accused the former dictator of facilitating the snatching of Pablo and Carolina as well as four other children. Marquevich found that Videla was aware of the kidnappings and took part in a cover-up of the crimes. The aging general was placed under house arrest.

In a related case, another judge, Alfredo Bagnasco, began investigating whether the baby-snatching was part of an organized operation and thus a premeditated crime of state. According to a report by the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights, the Argentine military viewed the kidnappings as part of a larger counterinsurgency strategy.

“The anguish generated in the rest of the surviving family because of the absence of the disappeared would develop, after a few years, into a new generation of subversive or potentially subversive elements, thereby not permitting an effective end to the Dirty War,” the commission said in describing the army’s reasoning for kidnapping the infants of murdered women.

The kidnapping strategy conformed with the “science” of the Argentine counterinsurgency operations. The Dirty War’s clinical anti-communist practitioners refined torture techniques, sponsored cross-border assassinations and collaborated with organized-crime elements.

According to government investigations, the military’s intelligence officers advanced Nazi-like methods of torture by testing the limits of how much pain a human being could endure before dying. The torture methods included experiments with electric shocks, drowning, asphyxiation and sexual perversions, such as forcing mice into a woman’s vagina. Some of the implicated military officers had trained at the U.S.-run School of the Americas.

‘Pink Panther’

Behind this Dirty War and its excesses stood the slight, well-dressed, gentlemanly figure of Gen. Videla. Called “bone” or the “pink panther” because of his slim build, Videla emerged as a leading theorist for international anti-communist strategies in the mid-1970s.

Videla’s tactics were emulated throughout Latin America and were defended by prominent American right-wing politicians, including Ronald Reagan. [Regarding Reagan’s personal embrace of “dirty war” tactics, see Consortiumnews.com’s “How Reagan Promoted Genocide.”]

Videla rose to power amid Argentina’s political and economic unrest in the early-to-mid 1970s. “As many people as necessary must die in Argentina so that the country will again be secure,” he declared in 1975 in support of a “death squad” known as the Argentine Anti-Communist Alliance. [See A Lexicon of Terror by Marguerite Feitlowitz.]

On March 24, 1976, Videla led the military coup which ousted the ineffective president, Isabel Peron. Though armed leftist groups had been shattered by the time of the coup, the generals still organized a counterinsurgency campaign to eradicate any remnants of what they judged political subversion.

Videla called this “the process of national reorganization,” intended to reestablish order while inculcating a permanent animosity toward leftist thought. “The aim of the Process is the profound transformation of consciousness,” Videla announced.

Along with selective terror, Videla employed sophisticated public relations methods. He was fascinated with techniques for using language to manage popular perceptions of reality. The general hosted international conferences on P.R. and awarded a $1 million contract to the giant U.S. firm of Burson Marsteller. Following the Burson Marsteller blueprint, the Videla government put special emphasis on cultivating American reporters from elite publications.

“Terrorism is not the only news from Argentina, nor is it the major news,” went the optimistic P.R. message.

Since the jailings and executions of dissidents were rarely acknowledged, Videla felt he could deny government involvement. He often suggested that the missing Argentines were not dead, but had slipped away to live comfortably in other countries.

“I emphatically deny that there are concentration camps in Argentina, or military establishments in which people are held longer than is absolutely necessary in this … fight against subversion,” he told British journalists in 1977. [See A Lexicon of Terror.]

A Crusade

In a grander context, Videla and the other generals saw their mission as a crusade to defend Western Civilization against international communism. They worked closely with the Asian-based World Anti-Communist League and its Latin American affiliate, the Confederacion Anticomunista Latinoamericana [CAL].

Latin American militaries collaborated on projects such as the cross-border assassinations of political dissidents. Under one project, called Operation Condor, anti-government political leaders — centrist and leftist alike — were shot or bombed in Buenos Aires, Rome, Madrid, Santiago and Washington. Operation Condor often employed CIA-trained Cuban exiles as assassins.

In 1980, four years after the coup, the Argentine military exported its terror tactics into neighboring Bolivia. There, Argentine intelligence operatives helped Nazi war criminal Klaus Barbie and major drug lords mount a brutal putsch, known as the Cocaine Coup.

The bloody operation turned Bolivia into the first modern drug state and expanded cocaine smuggling into the United States. [For more details, see Robert Parry’s Secrecy & Privilege.]

Videla’s anything-goes anti-communism struck a responsive chord with the Reagan administration which came to power in 1981. President Reagan quickly reversed President Jimmy Carter’s condemnation of the Argentine junta’s record on human rights. Reagan’s U.N. Ambassador Jeane Kirkpatrick even hosted the urbane Argentine generals at an elegant state dinner.

More substantively, Reagan authorized CIA collaboration with the Argentine intelligence service for training and arming the Nicaraguan Contras. The Contras were soon implicated in human rights atrocities and drug smuggling of their own. But the Contras benefitted from the Reagan administration’s own “perception management” operation which portrayed them as “the moral equivalent of the Founding Fathers.” [For details, see Parry’s Lost History.]

In 1982, however, the Argentine military went a step too far. Possibly deluded by its new coziness with Washington, the army invaded the British-controlled Falkland Islands. Given the even-closer Washington-London alliance, the Reagan administration sided with Margaret Thatcher’s government, which crushed the Argentine invaders in a brief war.

The humiliated generals relinquished power in 1983. Then, after democratic elections, the new president Raul Alfonsin created a truth commission to collect evidence about the Dirty War crimes. The grisly details shocked Argentines and the world.

Ongoing Echo

Some Argentine analysts believe that repercussions from that violent era continued for decades, with organized crime rampant and corruption reaching into the highest levels of the government, especially during the administration of President Menem, who pardoned Videla and other practitioners of the Dirty War.

Menem’s sister-in-law, Amira Yoma, reportedly was under investigation in Spain for money-laundering. A reporter investigating mob ties was burned alive. Relatives of a prosecutor examining gold smuggling were tortured by having their faces mutilated. Jewish targets have been bombed.

Michael Levine, a former star agent for the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration who served in Argentina, was not surprised by this violent carryover into the 1990s. “The same militaries and police officers that committed human rights crimes during the coup are holding positions in the same forces,” Levine said.

Elsewhere, foreign governments whose citizens were victims of the Dirty War also pressed individual cases against Videla and other former military leaders. These countries included Germany, Spain, Italy, Sweden, Denmark and Honduras.

Yet, in Argentina, Menem’s pardon protected Videla and the others from facing any significant punishment for their acts, at least for a time. Menem refused to extradite the former military leaders to other countries. He also dragged his heels on purging the armed forces of thousands of officers implicated in Dirty War offenses.

So, the lingering case implicating Videla in harvesting babies from doomed women represented one of the last chances for Argentina to hold the dictator accountable — and to come to grips with the terrible crimes of its recent past.

Marta Gurvich is an Argentine journalist who has written about political and social issues in Latin America.

Editor’s Update: In 1998, Videla was found guilty of kidnapping in the case of Silvia Quintela and other “disappeared.” He spent 38 days in prison before being transferred to house arrest due to health concerns. However, after the election of President Nestor Kirchner in 2003, another effort was made to hold the Dirty War leaders accountable.

On Dec. 22, 2010, Videla was sentenced to life in a civilian prison for the deaths of 31 prisoners, killed after his 1976 coup. Then, on July 5, 2012, Videla was sentenced to 50 years in prison for the systematic kidnapping of children during his tenure.

The precise role of Cardinal Bergoglio in the Dirty War remains something of a mystery. His defenders claim he privately appealed to Videla to spare the lives of two ex-Jesuit priests who had been abducted and tortured, while his critics claim that his dismissal of the two priests made them easy targets for the military. [See Christopher Dickey’s account at The Daily Beast.]

In October 2012, Bergoglio issued a collective apology for the behavior of Argentina’s Catholic Church during the Dirty War, but blamed both the military and leftists for the carnage, angering some Argentines because the overwhelming majority of human rights crimes were committed by the military against unarmed political dissidents.

During the Dirty War, much of the Catholic hierarchy actively supported the military junta and opposed public resistance to the security forces as they “disappeared” alleged leftists off the streets. Some Catholic leaders who did speak out against the repression were themselves targeted for death.

At the time, Bergoglio was one of the Church’s rising stars who chose the politically (and physically) safe posture of maintaining silence, lodging no public protest, staying on good terms with the junta and now asserting that he undertook a few private efforts to save lives.

Yet, after the Dirty War, amid efforts to exact some accountability for the political slaughter, Bergoglio resisted cooperation with human right trials and, when he finally testified in 2010, his answers were evasive, human rights attorney Myriam Bregman told the Associated Press.

Regarding the practice of harvesting babies from doomed women and then farming them out to military families, Bergoglio has insisted that he didn’t know of the practice until well after the Dirty War was over.

However, Estela de la Cuadra family contradicted Bergoglio’s claim of ignorance in citing a 1977 case in which Jesuits in Rome urged Bergoglio to intervene regarding the kidnapping of Estela’s sister Elena, who was five months’ pregnant. The police reported back that the woman was a communist and thus was killed but her baby girl was first delivered and then given to an “important” family.

“Bergoglio has a very cowardly attitude when it comes to something so terrible as the theft of babies,” Estela de la Cuadra told the AP. “The question is how to save his name, save himself. But he can’t keep these allegations from reaching the public. The people know how he is.”
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
User avatar
seemslikeadream
 
Posts: 32090
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:28 pm
Location: into the black
Blog: View Blog (83)

Re: Pope to resign (first in 600 years)

Postby FourthBase » Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:36 pm

JackRiddler wrote:This is a bet I'd love to lose, but I'm guaranteed to win - I'd go to 15 billion.

Hell, here's the 150 to your 1:

:partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat
:partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat
:partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat
:partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat
:partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat
:partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat
:partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat
:partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat
:partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat
:partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat
:partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat
:partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat
:partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat
:partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat
:partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat :partyhat


Excellent. Someday we shall see. Or not. You are almost certainly guaranteed to win.
But, I do note, that losing 15 trillion :partyhat was a risk too far.

:wink
“Joy is a current of energy in your body, like chlorophyll or sunlight,
that fills you up and makes you naturally want to do your best.” - Bill Russell
User avatar
FourthBase
 
Posts: 7057
Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 4:41 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Pope to resign (first in 600 years)

Postby FourthBase » Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:09 pm

justdrew wrote:fyi, this is making the rounds...

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/03/15/book-written-by-francis-reveals-radical-pope-in-the-making/

In his own words, Pope Francis comes over as a clever, thoughtful and skilful mixture of social conservative and radical progressive who preaches zero tolerance of pederast priests but whose own behaviour during the terror of Argentina’s military juntas remains decidedly blurred.

In his latest book, On Earth and Heaven, the man then known as Jorge Bergoglio, discusses the divine and the mundane with the prominent Jewish rabbi Abraham Skorka in a series of conversations published in 2010.

Bergoglio appears as a man with a profound social conscience, expressing admiration of some atheist socialists and professing a genuine belief in interfaith dialogue – to the extent that some radical Catholics accuse him of heresy.

He is critical of those who covered up the paedophile scandal that has done so much damage to the church he now leads.

“The idea that celibacy produces paedophiles can be forgotten,” he says. “If a priest is a paedophile, he is so before he becomes a priest. But when this happens you must never look away. You cannot be in a position of power and use it to destroy the life of another person.”

Bergoglio says he has never had to deal with such a case, but when a bishop asked what he should do, he told him the priest should be sacked and tried, that putting the church’s reputation first was a mistake.

“I think that is the solution that was once proposed in the United States; of switching them to other parishes,” he says. “That is stupid, because the priest continues to carry the problem in his backpack.” The only answer to the problem, he adds, is zero tolerance.

The church, he says, has been through worse times. “There have been corrupt periods. There were very difficult periods, but the religion revived itself.”

He also recognises that the church must move with the times and be in constant transformation. “If, throughout history, the church has changed so much, I do not see why we should not adapt it to the culture of the [our] time,” he says.

But he sticks to Catholic dogma on key issues, writing off gay marriage as “an anthropological reverse”.

Abortion is a scientific problem that is separate “from any religious concept”.

“Preventing the development of a being that already has the genetic code of a human being is not ethical,” he says.

Some of his harshest words are for ultra-conservatives who put obedience of church rules above everything else. “There are sectors within the religions that are so prescriptive that they forget the human side,” he says.

That may explain why, according to a leaked cardinal’s diary from the 2005 papal conclave, he allegedly once criticised anti-condom zealots as wanting to “stick the whole world inside a condom”.

But it may also be the result of criticism he received for once joining a stadium full of protestant evangelists – seen by some Catholics as the biggest threat to their supremacy in Latin America – in their prayers.

“The following week a magazine produced the headline: ‘Archbishopric of Buenos Aires, an empty chair. The archbishop has committed the crime of apostasy’,” he complains.

The allegations by journalist Horacio Verbitsky, who accuses him of covering up the church’s connivance with the silencing of the disappearance, torture and murder of political opponents, are dismissed with a reference to another book of interviews in which he gives his explanation.

“The horrors committed under the military governments were revealed only drip-by-drip, but for me they are still one of the worst blights on this country,” says Bergoglio, suggesting that he himself only slowly became aware of the abuses.

He expresses his admiration for the atheist socialists who helped bring social justice to Argentina, but recognises that some socialists end up leaving the church. “Generally it is because they have conflicts with the church structure, with the way of life of some believers who, instead of being a bridge, become a wall.”

And he warns against a globalisation that does not respect cultures. “The kind of globalisation that makes things uniform is essentially imperialist,” he says, adding that cultural diversity must be conserved. “At the end it becomes a way of enslaving people.”

And he reveals what he most admires about Saint Francis of Assisi, from whom he would later take his papal name.

“He brought to Christianity an idea of poverty against the luxury, pride, vanity of the civil and ecclesiastical powers of the time,” he says. “He changed history.”

But he refuses to separate charity from religion – and even warns the church against becoming a simple NGO.

And the man who now leads 1.2 billion Roman Catholics across the world has a clear idea of leadership. “A religious leader can be strong, and very firm, but without being aggressive,” he says. “Whoever leads should be like those who serve. When he stops serving he becomes a mere manager, a representative of an NGO.”

© Guardian News and Media 2013


Interesting. I suppose it's possible that he's not a pure force for evil. Might even be possible that his fellow Cardinals, the lot of them so very far to the right, mistakenly elected a relatively open-minded force for good, possible that he was as he claims trying to protect priests from the junta not facilitate their slaughter and torture, possible that he never in his career made a decision to hide a pedophile from justice. But, the odds are against it.

As I outlined to my "Viva Il Papa!" mother today, one has to measure the likelihood of complicity in the junta's evil by first sorting people by the repercussions they faced. Miniaturize the whole of Argentina into 100 people. For the sake of argument, let's say 10 of them are dead, because they did the right thing and were murdered for it. They must be presumed to have been good people, as totally blameless as it gets. Another 10 survived, but were tortured, so they must get the similar benefit of the doubt. Another 10 were fired and harassed and intimidated into silence. Another 10 were lucky enough to have done the right thing but escape punishment. Then it begins to get interesting. Another 30 did nothing, out of a justifiable fear of punishment, even though they could have done something. Not ultimately to blame, but not entirely blameless. Another 10 got along to get along, and perhaps had their careers stall for lack of enthusiasm for the junta, but likewise did not suffer much of a consequence. Less blameless, more complicit, but still not the first to point an accusatory finger at. Another 10 cooperated, and were rewarded in some way, actively with perks or career upward mobility, or passively by avoiding the banhammer. Another 5 were instrumental in carrying out the junta's wishes, and were amply rewarded with money, power, safety. Lastly, another 5 were among the master planners of the atrocities, the prime or secondary movers, and were rewarded with the most money, the most power, the most security. This breakdown is so rough as to be useless by itself, in terms of accurately depicting the situation. But there is a maximum of accuracy within it to be refined and reached by the knowledgeable.

So, which best describes Bergoglio? What good or bad came to him for his decisions and actions? Bono? Malo? Did he die? No. Was he tortured? Not that we know of. No, he was promoted, and promoted, and promoted, and now he is the fucking Pope. So, he is guilty until proven innocent, as it were. He is a suspect unless demonstrated otherwise. He not only made it out of there alive, and unscathed, and unfired, and unstalled. He rose to the highest of heights, the summit, to become maybe the most powerful human on earth!

He might be a stealth good soul, a walking miracle of luck and divine intervention, a bona fide champion of the downtrodden, a defender of justice, etc. But I wouldn't bet a single, solitary :partyhat on it.
“Joy is a current of energy in your body, like chlorophyll or sunlight,
that fills you up and makes you naturally want to do your best.” - Bill Russell
User avatar
FourthBase
 
Posts: 7057
Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 4:41 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Pope to resign (first in 600 years)

Postby divideandconquer » Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:28 pm

Here's another option, albeit a very lame one. What if he was presented with an ultimatum that involved two evils, and he chose what he thought to be the lesser one?

Having said that, I believe he's guilty until proven innocent as well. I guess time will tell, but I suspect a wolf in sheep's clothing. Hope I'm wrong.
'I see clearly that man in this world deceives himself by admiring and esteeming things which are not, and neither sees nor esteems the things which are.' — St. Catherine of Genoa
User avatar
divideandconquer
 
Posts: 1021
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:23 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Pope to resign (first in 600 years)

Postby FourthBase » Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:29 pm

divideandconquer wrote:Here's another option, albeit a very lame one. What if he was presented with an ultimatum that involved two evils, and he chose what he thought to be the lesser one?


Not necessarily lame, actually sounds plausible. Then again, if that were the case, why should he have thought himself any better or more valuable than any other Catholic clergy, to think that it was necessary for him to take either fork of such an ultimatum, instead of dying like the others did? "What if he had no choice?" But he did: The choice to prefer death over participating in any evil, lesser or greater. The same choice his betters made.
“Joy is a current of energy in your body, like chlorophyll or sunlight,
that fills you up and makes you naturally want to do your best.” - Bill Russell
User avatar
FourthBase
 
Posts: 7057
Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 4:41 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Pope to resign (first in 600 years)

Postby JackRiddler » Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:33 pm

The fate of El Salvador's Archbishop Romero notwithstanding, Bergoglio was in one of the few high positions from which one had a good chance to fight the Argentine junta and survive.

But it's true, we don't know with certainty.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

TopSecret WallSt. Iraq & more
User avatar
JackRiddler
 
Posts: 16007
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:59 pm
Location: New York City
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Pope to resign (first in 600 years)

Postby divideandconquer » Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:11 am

FourthBase wrote:
Not necessarily lame, actually sounds plausible. Then again, if that were the case, why should he have thought himself any better or more valuable than any other Catholic clergy, to think that it was necessary for him to take either fork of such an ultimatum, instead of dying like the others did? "What if he had no choice?" But he did: The choice to prefer death over participating in any evil, lesser or greater. The same choice his betters made.

I was actually thinking of a situation that didn't necessarily involve his own safety, rather the safety of a greater number of people, or non-clergy. In other words, is it possible he sacrificed the Jesuit priests because if he hadn't, they were threatening to harm more "civilians" After all, the Jesuits are a military order.

But, if that were true, why not defend himself?
'I see clearly that man in this world deceives himself by admiring and esteeming things which are not, and neither sees nor esteems the things which are.' — St. Catherine of Genoa
User avatar
divideandconquer
 
Posts: 1021
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:23 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Pope to resign (first in 600 years)

Postby FourthBase » Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:50 am

Okay, interesting possibilities. So, given the available evidence, what's the likelihood of each possibility? What did others in his position do? How many? Are there any documented cases that could serve as analogues for both the best and worst case scenarios for a Bergoglio?
“Joy is a current of energy in your body, like chlorophyll or sunlight,
that fills you up and makes you naturally want to do your best.” - Bill Russell
User avatar
FourthBase
 
Posts: 7057
Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 4:41 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Pope to resign (first in 600 years)

Postby MinM » Sat Mar 16, 2013 3:25 pm

@lisapease: Did you know the CIA's Chief of Counterintelligence once saw his own asset, Montini, become Pope Paul VI?

https://twitter.com/lisapease/status/313005076925001729
Earth-704509
User avatar
MinM
 
Posts: 3288
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:16 pm
Location: Mont Saint-Michel
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Pope to resign (first in 600 years)

Postby seemslikeadream » Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:12 am

Documents show Milwaukee archdiocese shielded pedophile priests

By Brendan O'Brien and Geoffrey Davidian
MILWAUKEE | Mon Jul 1, 2013 11:27pm EDT
(Reuters) - Roman Catholic Church officials in Milwaukee vigorously shielded pedophile priests and protected church funds from lawsuits during a decades-long sex abuse scandal, according to hundreds of documents released on Monday.

The documents include letters and deposition testimony from Cardinal and Archbishop of New York Timothy Dolan who, during his time as archbishop of Milwaukee from 2002 to 2009, appealed to Vatican on numerous occasions to help address the ongoing fallout from the scandal.

The 6,000 pages of documents related to eight decades of abuse cases showed in great detail the Milwaukee archdiocese regularly reassigned priests who were accused of sexual molestation to new parishes and Dolan himself asking the Vatican permission to transfer $57 million to a trust fund to protect it against court action.

In 2011, the Milwaukee archdiocese filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection, citing the financial drain of settling sexual-abuse claims and acknowledging missteps by the church in dealing with pedophile priests.

The judge overseeing the archdiocese's bankruptcy ordered the documents to be released.

The Roman Catholic Church has been hit with a series of abuse accusations and scandals during the past two decades, in the United States and elsewhere. The scandals have cost the U.S. church about $3 billion in settlements and driven prominent dioceses such as the one in Milwaukee, into bankruptcy.

One document is a letter that Dolan sent to the Vatican in June 2007 requesting permission to move $57 million into a cemetery trust fund in order to protect the funds from "any legal claim and liability." The Vatican approved the transfer a month later, according to the documents.

During a news conference on Monday, Jeff Anderson, an attorney representing more than 500 abuse victims, said the money was to be used to "pay off some of the offenders to quietly go away."

Dolan disagreed with the characterization of the fund in a statement released on Monday. He said it was a "perpetual care fund" from for cemeteries, not an attempt to shield money from bankruptcy.

Milwaukee is the eighth American diocese to declare bankruptcy, with the first three filed in 2004 in Portland, Oregon; Tucson, Arizona; and Spokane, Washington.

The documents also showed that when Dolan, the president of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops and the nation's most prominent Roman Catholic official, asked the Vatican to remove priests, it was slow to respond.

In September 2003, Dolan informed the Vatican of abuse by Reverend John O'Brien, who sent a resignation letter to Pope John Paul II a month before, according to the documents.

In November 2003, when he had received no response, records show that Dolan followed up with more two accounts of abuse on the part of O'Brien, according to a document.

It was not until April 2009, that O'Brien was removed from the priesthood.

Documents also show the Milwaukee archdiocese transferring pedophile priests instead of removing them from the church.

In one such case, Reverend Raymond Adamsky received counseling and was transferred to 11 parishes in 34 years before being sent to serve as nursing home chaplain with restrictions on contact with minors, after he was accused of molestation in 1961 and then again in 1983, the documents show.

The documents also detail the Milwaukee archdiocese, on a regular basis, requested priests accused of abuse be laicized, a process in which they are stripped of their powers and duties.

As part of their laicization, priests such as O'Brien were paid $10,000 to start the process and $10,000 during the process and, in some cases, $1,250 per month for health and dental insurance, according to the documents.
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
User avatar
seemslikeadream
 
Posts: 32090
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:28 pm
Location: into the black
Blog: View Blog (83)

Re: Pope to resign (first in 600 years)

Postby cptmarginal » Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:51 pm

The tornado that followed my first exorcism outside the Vatican in 2009, and the lightning that struck it on the day of Benedict’s resignation, were not accidental. Joe Ratzinger should know from the history of his own former SS buddies that criminal institutions can run, but they can’t hide – even behind all the wealth and pomp in the world.


I'm reading "Hitler's Pope" by John Cornwell right now and it's fascinating from the very first pages. This stuck out as a funny coincidence:

The juggernaut of Italian nationalism, however, was unstoppable; and Marcantonio Pacelli, close to his Pope, was present at events of great consequence for the modern papacy. By 1860 the new Italian state under the leadership of the Piedmontese king, Vittorio Emanuele II, had seized nearly all the papal dominions. In his notorious Syllabus of Errors (1864), Pio Nono denounced eighty “modern” propositions, including socialism, freemasonry, and rationalism. In the eightieth proposition, a cover-all denunciation, he declared it a grave error to assert that the “Roman Pontiff can and should reconcile himself with progress, liberalism, and modern civilization.”

Pio Nono had erected about himself the protective battlements of God’s citadel; within, he raised the standard of the Catholic faith, based on the word of God as endorsed by himself, the Supreme Pontiff, Christ’s Vicar upon earth. Outside were the standards of the Antichrist, man-centered ideologies that had been sowing error ever since the French Revolution. And the poisonous fruit, he declared, had even affected the Church itself: movements seeking to reduce the power of the popes by urging national Churches independent of Rome. Yet just as influential was a long-established tendency from the opposite extreme: ultramontanism, a call for unchallenged papal power that would shine out across the world, transcending all national and geographical boundaries. Pio Nono now began to prepare for the dogmatic declaration of just such an awe-inspiring primacy. The world would know how supreme he was by a dogma, a fiat, to be held by all under pain of excommunication. The setting for the deliberations that preceded the proclamation was a great council of the Church, a meeting of all the bishops under the presidency of the Pope. The First Vatican Council was convened by Pio Nono late in 1869 and lasted until October 20 of the following year.

At the outset, only half of the bishops attending the Council were disposed to support a dogma of papal infallibility. But Pius IX and his close supporters went to work on them. When Cardinal Guido of Bologna protested that only the assembled bishops of the Church could claim to be witnesses to the tradition of doctrine, Pio Nono replied: “Witnesses of tradition? I am the tradition.”

The historic decree of papal infallibility passed on July 18, 1870, by 433 bishops, with only two against, reads as follows:

"The Roman Pontiff, when he speaks ex cathedra, that is, when, exercising the office of pastor and teacher of all Christians, he defines . . . a doctrine concerning faith and morals to be held by the whole Church, through the divine assistance promised to him in St. Peter, is possessed of that infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer wished His Church to be endowed . . . and therefore such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are irreformable of themselves, and not from the consent of the Church."

An additional decree proclaimed that the Pope had supreme jurisdiction over his bishops, individually and collectively. The Pope, in effect, was ultimately and unprecedentedly in charge. During the hour of these great decisions, a storm broke over St. Peter’s dome and a thunderclap, amplified within the basilica’s cavernous interior, shattered a pane of glass in the tall windows. According to The Times (London), the anti-infallibilists saw in the event a portent of divine disapproval. Cardinal Henry Manning, the archbishop of Westminster and an enthusiastic lobbyist for Pio Nono, responded disdainfully: “They forgot Sinai and the Ten Commandments.”


I also had never heard this about Pope Pius IX, aka Pio Nono:

Then Pio Nono became involved in a scandal that shocked the world. In 1858, a six-year-old Jewish child, Edgardo Mortara, was kidnapped by papal police in Bologna on the pretext that he had been baptized in extremis by a servant girl six years earlier. Placed in the reopened House of Catechumens, the child was forcibly instructed in the Catholic faith. Despite the pleas of Edgardo’s parents, Pio Nono adopted the child and liked to play with him, hiding him under his soutane and calling out, “Where’s the boy?” The world was outraged; no less than twenty editorials on the subject were published in The New York Times, and both Emperor Franz Josef of Austria and Napoleon III of France begged the Pope to return the child to his rightful parents, all in vain. Pio Nono kept Edgardo cloistered in a monastery, where he was eventually ordained as a priest.


Classy.
The new way of thinking is precisely delineated by what it is not.
cptmarginal
 
Posts: 2741
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:32 pm
Location: Gordita Beach
Blog: View Blog (0)

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 153 guests