The Syria Thread 2011 - Present

Moderators: Elvis, DrVolin, Jeff

Re: US troops surround Syria on the eve of invasion?

Postby American Dream » Sat Oct 22, 2016 7:47 pm

Both the Syrian regime and the Saudi one are key pillars of the old rotten Arab regime against which the uprising stood up, with the dream of being able to sweep it away and replace it with an order that would provide “bread, freedom, social justice, and national dignity” — the slogan that was chanted in Cairo’s Tahrir Square and numerous other squares providing the best summary of the aspirations of the Arab Spring. The purpose of both bombings — that perpetrated by the Syrian regime and its Russian master and that perpetrated by the Saudi regime and its allies — is one in essence: they both aim at burying the revolutionary process ignited in Tunisia on December 17, six years ago.

The role of the Syrian regime and its Iranian (with auxiliaries) and Russian allies in confronting the Syrian revolution and repressing it with the ugliest and vilest means at the cost of untold massacre and destruction, is as clear as could be — except in the eyes of those who don’t want to see and persist in denying the reality or strive to justify it in presenting the uprising as a foreign conspiracy, thus repeating the worn-out argument of all reactionary regimes confronted with uprisings and revolutions.

As for the role of the Saudi regime in heading the Arab reaction, it is attested by the kingdom’s entire history, especially since the winds of liberation from colonialism and imperialism started blowing over the Arab region. Since 2011, this role took different forms from direct repressive intervention as occurred in Bahrain to support to the old regime by various means as occurred in Tunisia and Egypt, as well as provision of assistance and funding to Salafist groups in Syria in order to drown the uprising in a religious sectarian ideology that suits the kingdom and thus to ward off the democratic threat that the Syrian revolution represented for Arab despotism in all its variants, and not for the Syrian Baathist regime alone.


-Standing Against Barbarism by Gilbert Achcar
American Dream
 
Posts: 19946
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: US troops surround Syria on the eve of invasion?

Postby Morty » Sat Oct 22, 2016 9:29 pm

American Dream wrote:-Standing Against Barbarism by Gilbert Achcar


Gilbert Achcar seeks to cover up his support for Middle East wars
By Alex Lantier
13 August 2013

In an attempt to salvage what little remains of his “socialist” credentials, Professor Gilbert Achcar, a longtime associate of France’s New Anti-capitalist Party (NPA), has written an essay entitled “Inventive Illiteracy Amidst Petty Sectarianism.”

Working at London’s School of Oriental and African Studies and within the NPA-linked Socialist Resistance group in Britain, Achcar has been a leading propagandist for the wars in Syria and in Libya, which he claimed were waged in defense of human rights. Despite the fact that pro-war propaganda has enveloped his political persona with an ineradicable stench, Achcar now protests that his positions on the Middle East wars have been grievously misrepresented. Thus, he attacks an article by Sarah McDonald in the Weekly Worker, the publication of the Stalinist Communist Party of Great Britain (CPGB), which called Achcar a “social-imperialist.”

In dismissing McDonald’s epithet, Achcar vents his outrage against the “countless politically illiterate people” who “have accused [me of] of ‘supporting’ NATO’s intervention in Libya.” He pompously adds, “I will not waste my time and that of the readers in reminding them here of what I really stood for.”

Though Mr. Achcar does not care to review the record of his political support for the neo-colonial enterprises in Libya and Syria, he cannot be allowed to rewrite his own history. The record is clear: Achcar publicly supported imperialist wars and discussed their prosecution with US and French intelligence assets. He bears political responsibility for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people.

From the outset of the Libyan operation, Achcar played a key role in promoting the propaganda required by imperialism to build a pro-war constituency within the milieu of the “leftish” affluent middle class. In March 2011, two days after the passage of UN Security Council Resolution 1973 authorizing war in Libya, Achcar published an interview praising the war as a humanitarian operation to keep Colonel Muammar Gaddafi’s regime from attacking opposition groups in Benghazi.

While noting that “there are not enough safeguards in the wording of the resolution to bar its use for imperialist purposes,” Achcar said: “But given the urgency of preventing the massacre that would inevitably have resulted from an assault on Benghazi by Gaddafi’s forces, and the absence of any alternative means of achieving the protection goal, no one can reasonably oppose it… You can’t in the name of anti-imperialist principles oppose an action that will prevent the massacre of civilians.”

He acknowledged the right-wing politics of the NATO-backed opposition, but hailed the war as similar to revolutionary working class struggles that had toppled Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak the month before. He called NATO’s Libyan allies “a mixture of human rights activists, democracy advocates, intellectuals, tribal elements, and Islamist forces—a very broad coalition … The bottom line is that there is no reason for any different attitude toward them than to any other of the mass uprisings in the region.”

Two years later, it is clear that the war Achcar embraced was an act of imperialist plunder. The NATO powers seized Libya’s oil revenues and oil fields, carpet-bombed cities, including Tripoli and Sirte, and killed and wounded tens of thousands of people. It brought to power a NATO stooge regime based on a patchwork of Islamist militias that were NATO’s main proxy force to topple and murder Gaddafi.

Achcar repeatedly demanded that NATO funnel more weapons to Libyan opposition militias. Thus, in a largely sympathetic comment on Obama’s April 2011 speech on the war, he said the best way to “enable the uprising to win, in conformity with the Libyan people’s right to self-determination, is for the hypocritical Western governments—who have sold a lot of weapons to Gaddafi since the arms embargo was lifted in October 2004, and Gaddafi turned into a model—to deliver arms to the insurgency.”

Finally, as Libyan government forces began to collapse under NATO air strikes in August 2011, Achcar criticized NATO for not striking Libya harder. He issued a statement citing right-wing Wall Street Journal columnist Max Boot’s observation that NATO warplanes had flown 11,107 sorties against Libya, but 38,004 sorties in the 1999 war against Serbia over Kosovo.

He wrote, “The crucial question then is: why is NATO conducting an aerial campaign in Libya that is low-key not only in comparison with the air component of the war to grab similarly oil-rich Iraq, but even compared to the air war for economically unimportant Kosovo? And why is the alliance at the same time refraining from providing the insurgents with the weaponry they have consistently and insistently requested?”

Achcar’s support for the war epitomized the unrestrained movement of a layer of pseudo-left middle class intellectuals into the camp of imperialism. He functioned not only as a media publicist for war, but also as a strategist, hobnobbing with various US and French intelligence personnel and collaborators to discuss how best to present the wars to minimize popular opposition to them.

In his latest piece, Achcar seeks to distort the facts surrounding his October 2011 meeting in Sweden with Burhan Ghalioun, the president of the opposition Syrian National Council (SNC). During this meeting, he advised Ghalioun not to call for a NATO invasion of Syria—which would risk provoking mass popular opposition—but for “indirect” intervention to arm opposition forces.

In the event, this is the policy NATO ultimately pursued, arming the SNC and other Islamist opposition forces, including some tied to Al Qaeda. It led to a devastating proxy war in Syria that, in two years, has claimed over 100,000 lives and forced millions to flee their homes.

In his current article, Achcar denounces as a “canard” claims that “I took part in a meeting of the Syrian National Council (whereas it was actually a meeting of the left-wing National Coordination Council) in order to urge them to call for an imperialist intervention in Syria (whereas my contribution to the meeting was dedicated to exactly the opposite).”

Achcar’s denial is simply rubbish. He himself publicly announced that he had met with Ghalioun and described his advice to the SNC in an article published in November 2011 in the Lebanese daily Al Akhbar. The NPA reposted the article, including on its English language web site, International Viewpoint .

In this article, he wrote: “I was able to attend the meeting of the Syrian opposition that was held on October 8-9 in Sweden, near the capital, Stockholm. A number of male and female activists operating in Syria and abroad joined with prominent figures from the Syrian Coordination Committee (SNC—who had come from Syria for the event) in the presence of the most prominent member of the Syrian National Council—its president, Burhan Ghalioun.”

Professor Achcar can lie to his heart’s content, but the objective record of his reactionary political role has left smudges all over the internet.
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/08/13/achc-a13.html


And:

Libya War Was Based on Lies, Bogus Intelligence, NATO Supported and Armed the Rebels. British Parliamentary Report
By Washington's Blog
Global Research, September 25, 2016
Washington's Blog 23 September 2016

Parliamentary Report Confirms What the Alternative Media Has Been Saying for Years

The UK Parliament just confirmed what the alternative media has been saying for years.

Specifically, a new report from the bipartisan House of Commons Foreign Affairs Committee – based on interviews with all of the key British decision-makers, review of documents, and on-the-ground investigations in Africa – found that Libyan war was based on lies, that it destroyed the country, and that it spread terrorism far and wide.
The War Based On Bogus Intelligence … Like the Iraq War

Initially, the report finds that the threat to civilians from Libyan government forces was dramatically overstated:

Former French Foreign Minister Alain Juppé, who introduced Resolution 1973 [imposing a no-fly zone over Libya, and laying the groundwork for overthrowing the government], asserted in his speech to the Security Council that “the situation on the ground is more alarming than ever, marked by the violent re-conquest of cities”. He stressed the urgency of the situation, arguing that “We have very little time left—perhaps only a matter of hours.” Subsequent analysis suggested that the immediate threat to civilians was being publicly overstated and that the reconquest of cities had not resulted in mass civilian casualties.

***

The proposition that Muammar Gaddafi would have ordered the massacre of civilians in Benghazi [which was the basis for the West’s war to overthrow Gaddafi]was not supported by the available evidence. The Gaddafi regime had retaken towns from the rebels without attacking civilians in early February 2011 ….Gaddafi regime forces targeted male combatants in a civil war and did not indiscriminately attack civilians. More widely, Muammar Gaddafi’s 40-year record of appalling human rights abuses did not include large-scale attacks on Libyan civilians... [continued at link]
Link
User avatar
Morty
 
Posts: 422
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2014 10:53 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: US troops surround Syria on the eve of invasion?

Postby American Dream » Sat Oct 22, 2016 9:47 pm

The World Socialist Web Site- as humble and unassuming as they obviously are- is fairly sketchy. They have extremely dubious positions regarding authoritarian murderers Putin, Assad, Ghadaffi and other such enemies of the U.S. and its power bloc. They might call it Marxism-Leninism, I call it the anti-Imperialism of Fools, also the Idiot Left.
American Dream
 
Posts: 19946
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: US troops surround Syria on the eve of invasion?

Postby Morty » Sun Oct 23, 2016 4:38 am

American Dream wrote:The World Socialist Web Site- as humble and unassuming as they obviously are- is fairly sketchy. They have extremely dubious positions regarding authoritarian murderers Putin, Assad, Ghadaffi and other such enemies of the U.S. and its power bloc. They might call it Marxism-Leninism, I call it the anti-Imperialism of Fools, also the Idiot Left.


When it comes to murderers, Putin, Assad and Ghadaffi combined come a distant second to the USA. The cruise-missile, no-fly-zone left have real blood on their hands, whereas the WSWS merely has opinions which count for very little in the wider scheme of things. In the anglosphere, "socialist" support for a cause is likely to be a significant disadvantage to that cause, and WSWS opinions certainly have no hope of changing Assad's or Putin's behaviour.

But Alex Lantier's criticisms of Achcar stand on their own, regardless of what generalisations may be made about WSWS.
User avatar
Morty
 
Posts: 422
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2014 10:53 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: US troops surround Syria on the eve of invasion?

Postby American Dream » Sun Oct 23, 2016 4:47 am

Why does "Neither Right nor Left" always seem to rely on binaries? The bombs dropping on kids are just as murderous, no matter what the label on them.
American Dream
 
Posts: 19946
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: US troops surround Syria on the eve of invasion?

Postby Sounder » Sun Oct 23, 2016 6:58 am

Thanks Morty for providing that 'informer' on Gilbert Achcar.

It is amazing to me that such warmongers can so easily pass themselves off as being the good guys.

One thing that helps here is that they truly believe themselves to be the good guys.

It's possible that these folks choice of imperative, being the abolition of national boundaries, makes them the perfect partner of global corporatism.

'Anarchists' fulfilling the aims of corporations.

But sure AD, because repetition works, keep up with that 'anti-imperialism of fools' shtick, at least then you will never have to answer to the issues with anything that resembles substantive engagement.
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
Sounder
 
Posts: 4054
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:49 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: US troops surround Syria on the eve of invasion?

Postby American Dream » Sun Oct 23, 2016 9:54 am

So we have before us a clash of empires, one with a significant history. The fascists have long been in the mix too, though these days from a different position these days and communist states are no longer what they were.

Does it really make much sense to line up cheerleading for those ruling Russia/Iran/Syria? Even if that power bloc is playing second fiddle to Uncle Sam, they still represent autocratic elites more than anything.


Sounder » Sun Oct 23, 2016 5:58 am wrote:Thanks Morty for providing that 'informer' on Gilbert Achcar.

It is amazing to me that such warmongers can so easily pass themselves off as being the good guys.

One thing that helps here is that they truly believe themselves to be the good guys.

It's possible that these folks choice of imperative, being the abolition of national boundaries, makes them the perfect partner of global corporatism.

'Anarchists' fulfilling the aims of corporations.

But sure AD, because repetition works, keep up with that 'anti-imperialism of fools' shtick, at least then you will never have to answer to the issues with anything that resembles substantive engagement.
American Dream
 
Posts: 19946
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: US troops surround Syria on the eve of invasion?

Postby Sounder » Sun Oct 23, 2016 12:38 pm

So we have before us a clash of empires, one with a significant history. The fascists have long been in the mix too, though these days from a different position these days and communist states are no longer what they were.

Does it really make much sense to line up cheerleading for those ruling Russia/Iran/Syria? Even if that power bloc is playing second fiddle to Uncle Sam, they still represent autocratic elites more than anything.


After the Shah and his Savak the Iranians have every right to try to stop that sort of thing from happening again. It is not about supporting these folk anyway, it is rather about not supporting the lies and propaganda that turns others into villains 'that must be stopped'.

And why, pray tell is our autocratic elite better placed to rule their countries than is their own autocratic elites. This is more of your western exceptionalism, white people coming to save the day.

Did they save the day in Yugoslavia, how bout Libya, no? How bout Africa, Iraq? Ukraine, Afghanistan? Vietnam? Right all failures, -but now I form part of the anti-imperialism of fools because I don't support more of the same for Syria/Iran and Russia?

Are you flipping mad?
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
Sounder
 
Posts: 4054
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:49 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: US troops surround Syria on the eve of invasion?

Postby American Dream » Sun Oct 23, 2016 3:23 pm

I'm not supporting elite rule, generally- no film flam between this set of bosses and the other.

I place more emphasis on grassroots power, as guided by good principles, working class self-activity to build power much more from the bottom up, where decisions are more participatory. Favoring reactionary, authoritarian elites who murder/torture people who stand up for good principles- or just because they were in the way- is a sign of limited thinking.
American Dream
 
Posts: 19946
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: US troops surround Syria on the eve of invasion?

Postby JackRiddler » Sun Oct 23, 2016 6:03 pm

.

I read Achcar's "Barbarism" piece a while ago with great interest and do not dismiss most of it out of hand. However, I find the labeling of the ways in which Saudi/US are directly and indirectly responsible for the origins of ISIS as a "conspiracy theory" unconvincing when coupled with his own conspiracy theory that the ISIS rise was due to Assad letting out prisoners to allow a jihadi foil to the genuine revolutionaries. Fact: ISIS most directly came out of an insurgent faction in the destroyed nation of Iraq. Which Assad did not destroy. Somebody did, however. See?

It is not enough to reject a "false binary" of left and right, or of Russia/Assad vs. US/Saudi, or to generally find both sides' actions reprehensible and culpable. The actual historic details matter, first. They each have played different if reprehensible roles.

And second, it matters where you are in the world. I'm in the US as a citizen and my first duty and thing I can actually affect stems from that. I condemn all bombing of civilians by any party. I can work against US bombing of civilians but have less sway with Russia, however. My pontifical statements about how bad Putin and Assad are only go so far. In a context of the current US atmosphere and policy, they can have the effect of pontifical statements about how bad Saddam was circa 2002: justifying a new war plan.

I support ceasefire and negotiations backed by a real US-Russian agreement to end the fighting and to embargo arms and aid to all sides. It is in their power. I support taking in the refugees from this conflict.

Granted that my "sway" in the US is also an illusion, but I'm not buying the line that antiwar never has an impact, because it so obviously has at many points in the history. Therefore the last thing you are going to see me do is to pontificate against Stop the War Coalition, or to try to smear them Cold War-style as Russian puppets. Fuck that liberal noise.

.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

TopSecret WallSt. Iraq & more
User avatar
JackRiddler
 
Posts: 16007
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:59 pm
Location: New York City
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: US troops surround Syria on the eve of invasion?

Postby American Dream » Sun Oct 23, 2016 9:06 pm

JackRiddler » Sun Oct 23, 2016 5:03 pm wrote:.

And second, it matters where you are in the world.


I define where I am in the world a bit differently. I am at Rigorous Intuition right now, a place where a relatively thoughtless elevation of Putin and Assad is often equated with anti-Imperialism. In my view, if we are to build an effective movement for (positive/left) social change, the conspiracy research community must be guided by better politics, and cheering on vile bosses like the above, just because they are competitors to "our" bosses does not represent a praxis with much potential to help us.

If we couldn't stop either invasion of Iraq, I doubt we have the clout to stop all the bloodletting this time. What we can do though, is contribute to the development of better politics (more thoughtful, radical etc.) to guide the movement we will build over time. Baathism generally and Assadism specifically merit far more critique than support in that regard.
American Dream
 
Posts: 19946
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: US troops surround Syria on the eve of invasion?

Postby Harvey » Sun Oct 23, 2016 9:12 pm

American Dream » Mon Oct 24, 2016 2:06 am wrote:
JackRiddler » Sun Oct 23, 2016 5:03 pm wrote:.

And second, it matters where you are in the world.


I define where I am in the world a bit differently. I am at Rigorous Intuition right now, a place where a relatively thoughtless elevation of Putin and Assad is often equated with anti-Imperialism. In my view, if we are to build an effective movement for (positive/left) social change, the conspiracy research community must be guided by better politics, and cheering on vile bosses like the above, just because they are competitors to "our" bosses does not represent a praxis with much potential to help us.

If we couldn't stop either invasion of Iraq, I doubt we have the clout to stop all the bloodletting this time. What we can do though, is contribute to the development of better politics (more thoughtful, radical etc.) to guide the movement we will build over time. Baathism generally and Assadism specifically merit far more critique than support in that regard.


More straw men for us to tilt at? Once again, reporting the truth as far as it can be known is not an endorsement of Putin or Assad. If you don't respect the truth for it's own intrinsic value, why should anyone listen to you?
And while we spoke of many things, fools and kings
This he said to me
"The greatest thing
You'll ever learn
Is just to love
And be loved
In return"


Eden Ahbez
User avatar
Harvey
 
Posts: 4201
Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 4:49 am
Blog: View Blog (20)

Re: US troops surround Syria on the eve of invasion?

Postby American Dream » Sun Oct 23, 2016 9:14 pm

What is "the truth"?
American Dream
 
Posts: 19946
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: US troops surround Syria on the eve of invasion?

Postby Harvey » Sun Oct 23, 2016 9:15 pm



Good question.
And while we spoke of many things, fools and kings
This he said to me
"The greatest thing
You'll ever learn
Is just to love
And be loved
In return"


Eden Ahbez
User avatar
Harvey
 
Posts: 4201
Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 4:49 am
Blog: View Blog (20)

Re: US troops surround Syria on the eve of invasion?

Postby MacCruiskeen » Sun Oct 23, 2016 9:21 pm

American Dream » Sun Oct 23, 2016 8:06 pm wrote:
JackRiddler » Sun Oct 23, 2016 5:03 pm wrote:.

And second, it matters where you are in the world.


I define where I am in the world a bit differently. I am at Rigorous Intuition right now, a place where a relatively thoughtless elevation of Putin and Assad is often equated with anti-Imperialism. In my view, if we are to build an effective movement for (positive/left) social change, the conspiracy research community must be guided by better politics, and cheering on vile bosses like the above, just because they are competitors to "our" bosses does not represent a praxis with much potential to help us.

If we couldn't stop either invasion of Iraq, I doubt we have the clout to stop all the bloodletting this time. What we can do though, is contribute to the development of better politics (more thoughtful, radical etc.) to guide the movement we will build over time. Baathism generally and Assadism specifically merit far more critique than support in that regard.


Exactly who are you referring to? Who here has ever "elevated" or "cheered on" any vile bosses anywhere? Name those names, and cite the evidence.

You won't. You are so full of sh manure you're a public health hazard.

In my view, if we are to build an effective movement for (positive/left) social change, the conspiracy research community must be guided by better politics.


You are not addressing "the conspiracy research community" (sic), which is a figment of your imagination. You are addressing what is left of RI after you took giant smelly dumps all over it for years.

What we can do though, is contribute to the development of better politics (more thoughtful, radical etc.) to guide the movement we will build over time.


You are a movement of one (in figures:1). You're doing just great with that "movement-building".

build an effective movement for (positive/left) social change


If you are not in fact a spook or a spambot, then you are a solipsist. In either event, you are a timewaster and a saboteur of this board.

the movement we will build over time


:ohno: That can only be a bowel movement. Good luck with it, but don't expect anyone here to help you get it out.
"Ich kann gar nicht so viel fressen, wie ich kotzen möchte." - Max Liebermann,, Berlin, 1933

"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts." - Richard Feynman, NYC, 1966

TESTDEMIC ➝ "CASE"DEMIC
User avatar
MacCruiskeen
 
Posts: 10558
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:47 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 181 guests