9/11 Cult Watch

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Postby isachar » Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:01 pm

Jeff wrote:
I don't hold out much hope, and I've said there was only a slim chance, but if it's still possible then something like Kucinich initiating an investigation of 9/11 financing and insider trading is much more likely to be how it comes than by collapse fixations.

The money trail, along with testimony from the likes of Edmonds and Singh and the Florida flight school crime scene, serves up a coherent narrative as well as names of probable suspects. Attention to the collapse has neither.


As to the first paragraph, you may well be correct that it may lead to initation of an investigation, but so might a focus on the transparently phony NIST report. BOTH are legitimate avenues. One falls, so does the other.

As to the second, that is your opinion to which you are welcome. While I and probably most among those who reject the official fairy tale agree that Edmonds, Singh, Fla, and CIA-sponsored cocaine flights represent good avenues for investigation, many also believe the phony NIST report also provides similar opportunities and possibilities.

That we differ is fine. But that you take every opportunity to subvert, deride and divert those who seek to pursue both avenues or think those elements of the crime relevant to the phony NIST investigation are more opportune is egregious and warrants examination.

Reposting from above in case you missed it, (wait for it, need to cut and paste - slightly modified version):

Now, let's examine what might have been.

Jeff (and I use him here to represent all of his orthodoxy) might have taken a position like:

Since both the official investigations in the events leading up to and occuring on 911 are transparently phony and illegitimate, there must be a full and bona fide investigation into the criminal acts related to that day.

I fully support all in the 911 truth and justice community who have this as their goal. However, since this is not likely to occur, I fully support all citizen-based efforts to gather, present, preserve, and analyze evidence of these crimes.

We may not all agree on what rises to the level of indictment of the criminals, but that is not our responsibility. Rather, it is the responsibility of our criminal justice and investigatory system that has also been perverted.

Accordingly, it is our responsibility to keep the knowledge and awareness of these crimes alive until such time as our investigatory and criminal justice systems can bring the perpetrators of these crimes to their full measure of justice.

And, until such time as a definitive and legitimate investigation can be made that is not controlled and directed by some of the leading suspects, all plausible alternatives must be kept on the table. This is fully in compliance with the investigative method that requires all such alternatives to be on the table until they can be definitely ruled out through a legitimate investigatory process.

My personal view (insert jeff's view here if I've mistated it) is that the forensics related to the collapse of the WTC's doesn't matter. But that is my personal view and it has no greater legitimacy than others who hold the view that these forensics have equal (or even greater) weight than other evidence.


Now, consider how much different things may have gone if this had been the prevailing view among those jeff derides as 'cultists' and the 'acceptable' left-pablum orthodoxy as represented by jeff and his ilk.
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Postby orz » Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:11 pm

insert jeff's view here if I've mistated it

The mind boggles.
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Postby isachar » Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:15 pm

orz wrote:
insert jeff's view here if I've mistated it

The mind boggles.


orz, you'd actually have to posess one for it to boggle. Maybe that boggling feeling you have is coming from the opposite end where you pull shit out of.
Last edited by isachar on Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby orz » Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:17 pm

insert my view here.
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Postby IanEye » Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:18 pm

Searcher08 wrote:
In this situation, surely the things that unite people are more important than the things which divide. What unites many people involved in this is outrage at the lack of justice for the famiiles of the people who died.


Strange how people who suffer together have stronger connections than people who are most content.
I don't have any regrets, they can talk about me plenty when I'm gone.
You always said people don't do what they believe in, they just do what's most convenient, then they repent.
And I always said, "Hang on to me, baby, and let's hope that the roof stays on."

There was a movie I seen one time, I think I sat through it twice.
I don't remember who I was or where I was bound.
All I remember about it was it starred Gregory Peck, he wore a gun and he was shot in the back.
Seems like a long time ago, long before the stars were torn down....
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Postby Jeff » Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:19 pm

insert jeff's view here if I've mistated it



Nobody expects the Truther Inquisition. Amongst our weaponry are such diverse elements as false dilemmas, red herrings, ruthless video compression and an almost fanatical devotion to Alex Jones.
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Postby isachar » Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:27 pm

Jeff wrote:
insert jeff's view here if I've mistated it



Nobody expects the Truther Inquisition. Amongst our weaponry are such diverse elements as false dilemmas, red herrings, ruthless video compression and an almost fanatical devotion to Alex Jones.


Typical..

Your level of hypocrisy on this subject is, apparently, boundless.
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Postby Jeff » Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:48 pm

isachar wrote:Your level of hypocrisy on this subject is, apparently, boundless.


No; that's the sound of ironic detachment.

Along with revulsion for having devoured 9/11 Justice, it's all the "Truth Movement" inspires in me.
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Postby nomo » Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:51 pm

isachar wrote:Typical..


No dude, if anything is typical, it is your rude insistence on putting words in people's mouth, bullying them into agreement and making fun of usernames and generally being an unsophisticated brat.

I refuse to play that game. I'm not going to answer yes or no to your question because *gasp* my view is actually a little more nuanced than that. Not that you care about that, I know, because you apparently would rather alienate your potential allies.

You're a zealot, Isachar. And zealots scare me.
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Postby barracuda » Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:20 pm

In the years since the collapses, I have viewed at least 70 - 100 videos of various controlled demolitions, and not once did I see any event which compared to the footage of the destruction of the twin towers. Their demise was, I believe, unlike anything anyone had ever seen, or, really, imagined. The main point of the OP in the "9/11, photos, reality" thread, that we are likely to perceive evidence as supporting our viewpoint, (whether that is called confirmation bias, selective memory, or personal prejudice) is, doubtless, a valid one. One can only view the world through the filters of one's own reality, upbringing, beliefs, and (most importantly) one's own language. These filters fundamentally shape and channel how we access the information of our senses. Sensory input is shaped by these lenses; this shaping is what allows us to walk down the street. There is no "objectivity". The commission studies of the tower collapses are no more objective than the point of view which argues that a missile is shooting from the nose of the aircraft. Each perspective begins with assumptions, and those assumptions are individualized to the particular, or, particular to the individual.

Watching the first strike in slow, frame by frame progression in various analyses of the Fireman's video, and prompted by the suggestions of the author I was struck by the idea that I could see a smoke puff preceding the plane impact. (I am sure you have all seen this page.)
http://www.serendipity.li/wot/aa11_missileframes.html

I have come to believe now that this is utterly inconclusive. I was seeing what I wanted to see. The "spark" of the second plane fascinated me for some time as well. What could it be? I wondered, gazing at photographic enlargements, frame grabs, slo-mo's. Was it a phenomena of static electricity in some way? The sheer force of impact resolving into visible heat? There was certainly something there to be seen and understood in those pictures of that horrifying moment, but what? The conjecture that it might be an "igniter" or missile left me blasé. What a roundabout plan that must have been - we'll disguise a plane to look like the original "highjacked" plane, only modified with a projectile explosive to actually fire on impact... faugh, its too complicated! Then after looking, and looking, I realized that I had been gazing into a Rorschach of my own desires. I wanted more than anything to be able to look at some piece of proof and say to myself, "well, there it is, those killers, there is the smoking gun, you can't dispute that," but I had to admit I did not have that. No one did.

The courtroom rules for photographic evidence are labyrinthine for a reason. The scientific basis for believing photgraphs to be an accurate, unbiased depiction of the world is, and has always been, highly suspect. The lenses used in photography were designed by optical researchers with a point of view which was, in itself, distorted by the politics of seeing, as well as the milieu of so-called enlightenment which continues to this day to be hopelessly hegemonic.
http://www.abanet.org/labor/e-notes/winter05/photos.html

Yes, the NIST report is, in my admittedly cursory reading and comprehending of it, compromised. The writers have buried their admission within it, that they will only examine the events preceding and leading up to the collapse; no further will they venture. Their simulations seem reverse engineered. In this they lived up to my expectations, and by doing so, gratified me once again - THIS would be the proof, again, finally: but not really. Not satisfying. How about the squibs! They look just like the ones in the demolition videos; but no. Not just like them at all. Looking, again, is not knowing.

I read the Steven Jones report referenced by Brentos, above (Extremely high temperatures during the World Trade Center destruction). It is well researched. And yet once again the conclusion reached is highly unsatisfying:
The data provide strong evidence that chemical reactions which were both violent and highly-exothermic contributed to the destruction of the WTC buildings. NIST neglected the high-temperature and fragmentation evidence presented here: it appears nowhere in their final report [15]. Proposed new building codes based on the WTC disaster must address all available evidence for what caused the complete and rapid destruction of these skyscrapers. Understanding the mechanisms that led to the destruction of the World Trade Center will enable scientists and engineers to provide a safer environment for people using similar buildings and benefit firefighters who risk their lives trying to save others. Thus, a thorough investigation which considers these data, showing extremely high temperatures and severe fragmentation in the formation of small metal-rich spheres during the WTC Towers destruction, is highly motivated. In particular, the repeatedly-delayed report on the destruction of WTC 7 on 9/11/2001 [21] should address these striking facts.

I would hardly say that this cuts through the rhetoric toward any final proof whatsoever; rather, it is an appeal for further investigation. I am old enough to remember first hand the House Select Committee on Assassinations in the late 1970's. The findings of the committee, two years in the making, at a cost of millions, largely based upon physical evidence of course were:
Scientific acoustical evidence establishes a high probability that two gunmen fired at President John F. Kennedy.

And we know what kind of justice that gave us. None.

Knowing came for me from due diligence, fueled largely from this website and the writings of Mr. Wells. Sorry, I can't think of anyone I consider less likely to be a gatekeeper or advocate of the mainstream conspiracy tale. He's got his own take on it - its not the same as mine these days, but it is his take, and is a good one. I don't think I have heard Jeff offer any much of an opinion on what the single truth of the matter is, except that it is a dark and ugly truth, woven from as many strands as there are players in the tragedy that has become my country.

The truth of this thing is like so many truths in the world now, a moiré of intersecting lines of inquiry allowing of no one single possible viewpoint the advantage of complete encapsulation. 911 can only be understood once it is "successfully solipsized," as Humbert says of his obsession. Its meaning and horrible proof are simultaneously terrifyingly public and devastatingly personal. Much of the devastation of these issues is plain to see in this thread, whereupon a group of fundamentally like-minded persons exhibit utter contempt for each others points of view as bitterly as if they were sworn enemies, and needlessly so.

It is truly criminal that the perpertrators of this monstrous crime are largely unrecognized by the public at large. Yet we here on this board see cracks in the facade of the wall built in front of their dealings. Little is to be gained through such complete acrimony. It only gives comfort to our real enemy in this true time of war.
Last edited by barracuda on Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby isachar » Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:30 pm

nomo wrote:
isachar wrote:Typical..


No dude, if anything is typical, it is your rude insistence on putting words in people's mouth, bullying them into agreement and making fun of usernames and generally being an unsophisticated brat.

I refuse to play that game. I'm not going to answer yes or no to your question because *gasp* my view is actually a little more nuanced than that. Not that you care about that, I know, because you apparently would rather alienate your potential allies.

You're a zealot, Isachar. And zealots scare me.


That's a perversion of the term.

The NIST report is patently phony and the issues it attempts to examine and suppress are just as legitimate for pursuing justice and facts in this matter as any other you Jeff, or the other Amy's of the world care to restrict such examinations to.

Thought you were leaving.

Thin skinned little bastard, aren't you. You can dish it out, but you can't take it.
Last edited by isachar on Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby nomo » Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:37 pm

isachar wrote:The NIST report is patently phony and the issues it attempts to examine and suppress are just as legitimate for pursuing justice and facts in this matter as any other.


Like I said, I don't see it in black and white. But obviously, nuance is not an option here for you.

isachar wrote:Thin skinned little bastard, aren't you. You can dish it out, but you can't take it.


Fine. So you're not a zealot, just a bully.
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Postby Jeff » Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:41 pm

isachar wrote:Thin skinned little bastard, aren't you. You can dish it out, but you can't take it.


Project much? Seems like, for about 10 pages now, a few of us have been standing here patiently taking your bucket loads of dead fish and fresh effluent.
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Postby orz » Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:44 pm

barracuda, really good post! Infinitely more intelligent and worthwhile than my bickerings with isachar.
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Postby isachar » Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:44 pm

nomo wrote:
isachar wrote:The NIST report is patently phony and the issues it attempts to examine and suppress are just as legitimate for pursuing justice and facts in this matter as any other.


Like I said, I don't see it in black and white. But obviously, nuance is not an option here for you.

isachar wrote:Thin skinned little bastard, aren't you. You can dish it out, but you can't take it.


Fine. So you're not a zealot, just a bully.


nomo, you are the master of the ad-hominems, and take every opportunity to bait, belittle and heap aspersions and oppobrium on those who think the investigation of the crimes related to 911 should be more expansive - extending to an examination of the questions raised by the patently phony NIST investigation.

That makes you the one who seeks to use this venue to suppress, limit and restrict discussion of certain areas of investigation to only those of your liking.

I think that makes you the bully/zelot and places me in the role of the person who refuses to back down to the bully, and responds in kind.

Like I said, you can dish it out, but you can't take it, can you bubba.
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